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On October 13 2012 10:21 iamperfection wrote:
.....BloodyC0bbler you accuse ve of not playing his role properly yet you yourself are the one that LIED causing the shit storm of what claims we should believe. Your lying showed you cared of one thing and one thing only your survival. You can die now 3rd party. We should of lynched you the second we found out about your lie it makes no sense from a town perspective. Your lying only pushed forward your interests of survival.
## Unvote
## Vote BloodyC0bbler
O.o
Wait, what? How did BCs lie cause MMToss or VE to claim? And what the shitstorm about it anyway, everyone is (supposedly) playing towards their wincon, Town by rightfully claiming Town, scum by making false claims. Shitstorm? Elaborate please.
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On October 13 2012 10:29 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 10:24 Kreb wrote:On October 13 2012 10:21 iamperfection wrote:
.....BloodyC0bbler you accuse ve of not playing his role properly yet you yourself are the one that LIED causing the shit storm of what claims we should believe. Your lying showed you cared of one thing and one thing only your survival. You can die now 3rd party. We should of lynched you the second we found out about your lie it makes no sense from a town perspective. Your lying only pushed forward your interests of survival.
## Unvote
## Vote BloodyC0bbler
O.o Wait, what? How did BCs lie cause MMToss or VE to claim? And what the shitstorm about it anyway, everyone is (supposedly) playing towards their wincon, Town by rightfully claiming Town, scum by making false claims. Shitstorm? Elaborate please. Ve claimed he was a veteran but first he claimed medic protection. He lied kill him. Its not optimal play no matter what he says it just leads to confusion. Why should i believe anything BloodyC0bbler say in relation to anything. And i didnt say it caused somebody to claim i said it just adds to confusion because his lie causes confusion with relation to other players claims.
I must say I dont really see the confusing part. He lied for a reason that to me makes sense from a town perspective. And no, you shouldnt believe him if you're sure hes 3rd party. But I cant discern how you are so sure about that. What if he actually IS veteran? Doesnt all make sense then?
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On October 13 2012 10:38 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 10:35 Kreb wrote:On October 13 2012 10:29 iamperfection wrote:On October 13 2012 10:24 Kreb wrote:On October 13 2012 10:21 iamperfection wrote:
.....BloodyC0bbler you accuse ve of not playing his role properly yet you yourself are the one that LIED causing the shit storm of what claims we should believe. Your lying showed you cared of one thing and one thing only your survival. You can die now 3rd party. We should of lynched you the second we found out about your lie it makes no sense from a town perspective. Your lying only pushed forward your interests of survival.
## Unvote
## Vote BloodyC0bbler
O.o Wait, what? How did BCs lie cause MMToss or VE to claim? And what the shitstorm about it anyway, everyone is (supposedly) playing towards their wincon, Town by rightfully claiming Town, scum by making false claims. Shitstorm? Elaborate please. Ve claimed he was a veteran but first he claimed medic protection. He lied kill him. Its not optimal play no matter what he says it just leads to confusion. Why should i believe anything BloodyC0bbler say in relation to anything. And i didnt say it caused somebody to claim i said it just adds to confusion because his lie causes confusion with relation to other players claims. I must say I dont really see the confusing part. He lied for a reason that to me makes sense from a town perspective. And no, you shouldnt believe him if you're sure hes 3rd party. But I cant discern how you are so sure about that. What if he actually IS veteran? Doesnt all make sense then? of course im not 100% sure stop playing stupid word games. I was under the impression that gambits like this were bad. Why would he need to lie if was town? just so the mafia wont shoot again. give me a break a town member should not worry about whether he lives or dies.
This is going into some kind of game-theory-land now: But if you believe yourself to be an above average player of your team, you SHOULD want to sac other members of your team before yourself if thats what it comes down to.
So caring about his own survival doesnt have to be anti-town, it can be very much pro-town.
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Its really hard to go to sleep, this thread is so interesting atm
Im not used to be awake when all the action happens. ;(
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Lack of Voice? I went to sleep at about 4am when there was a small break in posting (right after VEs self vote and BC asking why that makes sense). Go check the timestamps if you like. And then I got up at about 11am and its now 12am. Is sleep the equal of hiding nowadays?
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@ sloosh then:
First part: There is no point of calling someone's defense incredibly weak if you think they are town - it only serves to cast doubt on said player's alignment. If you truly suspect someone as scum you would put less trust in what they say because of scum agenda influencing their posts.
I can certainly see the points. It puts pressure on them should it be scum, it updates the other town players on my thoughts. It might give other town players a reason to chip in themselves if they've seen something similar themselves somewhere else. And of course you read and try to process what even your strongest scum reads have to say. Thats how people drop out of peoples scum read list. If you just decide on the stance that someone is scum and then read all he has to say from the purpose of "he is lying" that terrible scumhunting. You should know that.
Second part: I don't know which one but it's from Ace's mafia strategy guide. Scum plant ideas into town so they present it as their own, making it difficult to trace back the origin. Doesn't matter if you claim your stance on him was clear from the start. If you really thought him scum through and through you don't concede that the claims seem valid. Scum can't make valid claims. Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:25 Kreb wrote:
Theres strange things going on with these claims. There a seemingly massive amount of Blues in the game (does mafia have something else to balance the possible town advantage of plenty of blues then? if so, what?) while still being 4 unclaimed roles (hitman, coroner, detective, arsonist). Thats one 3rd party, but could be another blue among the rest.
Cant really put my finger on what it could be though. All claims seem somewhat valid, but that doesnt feel right either.
And thats your whole case on me. "Kreb is actually reading and processing what VE has to say, if he truly believed VE was scum he should not listen to VE at all and just go all out". You're blaming me for considering VE might be town. That i express that theres part of his play which seems town. Thats like the worse reasoning ever. And even if you truly believe one should never listen and never try to process your top scum reads posts from a town perspective (god I hope you dont truly believe that), then I humbly disagree. And I am not going to stop that.
As for a deeper explanation of said post. I think I've made it quite clear I've been suspicious of VE all game. I also think I've made it clear to question that tunneling (because, you know, thats what proper town players should). And I also questioned the fact that there were 4 revealed blues and 3 more claims, which seem like an awful lot of blues. That post was made in that period. Hell I had the wierdest explanations going on in my head how either of these three could be scum. I was totally on to the fact that there could be a "mafia role power inspector" somewhere making mafia know what Blue roles there are, making it possible for BC to claim Lucky citizen/veteran and VE to claim PI without counterclaims from the real PI/LC. But in the end, every single idea just came down to this:
Actually, I keep having this voice in the back of my head telling me I shouldnt kinda tunnel VE like Im doing. That its clouding my judgement for the other players. But I cant really see anything on anyone else being equally or more scummy. And I have tried to find reasons as to how he could truly be his PI claim.
But no, fuck that. Every time I or someone else tries to explain it in any other way it just turn into some really wierd assumptions that theres so far hidden roles doing this and that.
No, mafia trading KP to flip Kush as town isnt likely
No, a framer which both frames role and alignment isnt likely.
The most probable explanation is right there in front of us, and that is that VE is scum. And thats even disregarding his previous scummyness he has shown a large part of this game. As for his claim, him being ballsy mafia is much more probable than the other explanations.
I was planning on waiting and see what comes up on the Matt/DP/ZB/whoever else people might wanna vote for - front, but fuck that.
##Vote VisceraEyes
That the easiest damn solution has always been right in front of me. And this post is when I went from "I wonder in what ways VE could not be scum" into "fuck this, VE is too damn fucking scummy, the other explanations doesnt make sense".
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Oh and if you want to know more about "how to consider your top scum reads posts". Go back to first post on the Node wagon. I call out Austin+Marv+VE as scummy. Later I SPECIFICALLY update that Im starting to consider Austin less scummy due to his posting. And whoop-di-doo, austin was also town. But maybe you consider the fact that I didnt tunnel Austin because I expressed scum read on him to be scummy too, eh? VE on the other hand has been piling on scum reads on my already huge scum-read-mounting of his whole game.
Reference:
+ Show Spoiler +On October 09 2012 08:23 Kreb wrote:Ok, time to post something before the night kills as I promised. Here are the reason I will most likely be voting VE next day if I'm alive. Also note that a lot of these things have already been posted, but with all the different tells which have been posted throughout the thread its probably a good idea to bunch them together somewhere. 1) The Node wagon. This post: + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 10:54 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today.
I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin.
is the most scummy thing about it. 1a) He only says he read through austins filters, but he very nicely avoids posting what he found in it. Instead he refers to "the two walls of his" as if that somehow makes everything 100% clear. He still, as of today, has not explained why he changed. 1b) His extremely weak (on unexisting) reason to switch to Node. Someone (who people seem to regard a very strong player) should not change that easily to such a weak case it was. 2) Refusing to answer to said cases and other quetions I just know what I asked him stuff myself, like this: + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 19:54 Kreb wrote:@VEShow nested quote +On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part.
The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 13:40 VisceraEyes wrote:I really like austin all of a sudden. And really dislike Mattchew. It's going to be an eventful night guys. Sleep tight.  Three lines of text, three questions: 1) What gave you the scum-read on annul? You were targetting him previously but to my knowledge your last stance on him was this: Show nested quote +At this point I'm null - I got a false read on him early on, and while I think his anger at me seems a little contrived, I know I've overreacted once or twice to people calling my posts stupid or something. Once that I remember for sure. Maybe twice. Has this changed? If so, why? 2) Why do you like austin? 3) Why do you dislike Mattchew? And he also refused to comment at all on my other accusations. To my knowledge he still hasnt said a word on the Node wagon yet. 3) The way he targetted annul 3a) His targetting D1 actually seemed to have a bit of reason behind it, but right after the Shady mislynch he says this: + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part.
The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. Once again, no explanation. Just straight up calling annul scum. It goes on for a while and the only legitimate reason I could see for his targetting of annul was the fact that annul suggested a vote switch (to ZBoson i think) very close to the deadline even though he had questioned vote switching before. While I did agree on that particular point against annul, that alone did in no way motivate the way VE attacked him. Also, it seemed like that reason only was revealed a bit after he had already started attacking annul, like he found about it later. A proper townie would have explained first and targetted after. 3b) Also he tried to paint annul as some really crafty mafia so the rest of us would be suspicious of him too, even though there wasnt as much to be suspicious of. mkfuba made a good case on that part: + Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 23:51 mkfuba07 wrote:Alright, I'm going to be getting a bit more rest since I woke up for Code S. Current thoughts: I could definitely see VE being scum. His unfortunate scumhunting is a big piece of the puzzle, but his interaction with annul keeps nagging at me. Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 09:48 VisceraEyes wrote:On October 03 2012 09:45 kushm4sta wrote:On October 03 2012 09:33 annul wrote:
whats with all the lies by this cabal? "you not pushing anyone" o rly who would you say you've pushed?? Who have you made a good case on? The longest post by far in your filter is a mostly omgus defence. "Rofl"s everywhere. VE has said that annul plays a scary mafia... If this is his scumplay how is this scary? It seems like he is making himself quite an obvious target for lynching if he is mafia. That's what you think...until he actually feels like he might be lynched. Then watch. *shiver* Palmar couldn't get the guy lynched. PALMAR. And his newbie brigade was in full force at the time! Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 10:31 VisceraEyes wrote:On October 03 2012 10:21 annul wrote:On October 03 2012 09:48 VisceraEyes wrote:On October 03 2012 09:45 kushm4sta wrote:On October 03 2012 09:33 annul wrote:
whats with all the lies by this cabal? "you not pushing anyone" o rly who would you say you've pushed?? Who have you made a good case on? The longest post by far in your filter is a mostly omgus defence. "Rofl"s everywhere. VE has said that annul plays a scary mafia... If this is his scumplay how is this scary? It seems like he is making himself quite an obvious target for lynching if he is mafia. That's what you think...until he actually feels like he might be lynched. Then watch. *shiver* Palmar couldn't get the guy lynched. PALMAR. And his newbie brigade was in full force at the time! if i had such magical "lynch evasion" skills, wouldnt i have these same skills as a green about to be lynched too? What's your point? Did I ever say it was a skill you exclusively possess as scum? I didn't think I did :/ It took me a while to figure out why I was so annoyed by these posts, but I think I've figured it out. VE first emphasizes that as scum annul can become "scary" (which I assume means that he can appear to become a good contributor, though VE never actually says how annul becomes "scary"), but leaves out the fact that he might do the same exact thing as town. It doesn't feel like VE is trying to inform the town of annul's apparent meta, as much as emphasize the scummy aspects of annul's meta and attribute it entirely to scum-annul. It would feel the same way if marv came in and said that I can be incredibly wishy-washy as scum. He's emphasized in previous games that I am the master of wishy-washiness regardless of alignment (though I've only ever been scum once, for little over a day). If he were to come into this game and try to convince everyone that I'm only wishy-washy when I'm scum, then I would be incredibly suspicious of him (In fact, I believe that's part of why he avoided talking about me at all despite my case being in the same post as the Node one). In VE's case, it looks like he tried to do a similar thing, and then when annul called him out on it he tried to minimize the effect. Why say that scum-annul can be "scary" if town-annul can also be "scary" unless you're trying to make vigis take the shot without a proper reason? It seems like a pretty scummy interaction from VE. I'd really like to hear thoughts from others, as this is the first thing I feel pretty confident about this game. Finally, I'm still waiting on input from mementoss... I know that 15 pages is a lot to go through, but I'm not going to put him aside just because one of the people who was calling him out is going to flip scum. There are other lurkers, but he's promised more contributions twice now, and we've seen nothing from it. 4) Meta reads This isnt something I can really confirm but I'll add it since it makes sence because of how many peopel have expressed them. Talismania started off by calling his meta scummy early D1. That kinda died off (probably for a good reason), but since then a lot of people have commented on how VE as town is MUCH more active, sometimes/often (?) something of a town leader and being much more contributory than how he is this game. 5) Extremely scummy (or bad if he really is town) scumhunting Already posted about this, here: + Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 21:33 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 21:14 Z-BosoN wrote:
Couple of thoughts from reading marvs filter, now that he is pretty much confirmed scum.
First off, his reaction to kreb makes me raise an eyebrow. He was extremely aggressive for something that could simply have been a townie thought. Kreb also hadn't made an association case, he simply said that some people looked scummy. Also, kreb said that marvs node push made him look scummy and generally made a weak semicase vs marv. It didn't feel legit and marvs reaction felt forced. I myself don't know what I'm implying but I think this interaction will become useful later.
There's also some interesting info regarding the node push. Marv stated that it didn't make sense at all from a mafia perspective, yet made the push. Pretty much an attempt at clearing suspicion. Now, I'm not gonna go and start accusing everyone on the node lynch because I myself sheeped it, as town. But Afaik, VE and marv basically started the Node push, and pretty much at the same time.
Initially I thought this would clear node, but it's pretty easy to not actually make it go through as mafia.
So, my conclusion from this is: VE looks pretty damn scummy right now. 1) He basically claimed he got RB(and its almost factual that at least one kill didn't go through). 2) marv showed weird hostility on the association kreb didn't make. 3) he co-led the Node push with another scum at the same time -> came from qt, quite possibly. They were pretty much caught with their pants down if it was indeed scum-influenced. Agreed. VE also didnt reply to any questions I asked him afterwards, nor did he reply to me calling him out for a very weak vote-switch to Node (left it to marv to do the dirty work by agressively defending my accusations while also clogging up the thread with plenty of posts?). He has also, should he be town, been either terribly bad or terribly unlucky in his scumhunting. Lets look at a few people he has touched on: 1) Show nested quote +I've got my eye on ShadySands, annul and Mattchew right now. Pretty sure there's scum buried deep within that trio. 2 confirmed town flips. 2) Then the attack on annul - confirmed town flip. 3) After dropping annul, posting this Show nested quote +I'm willing to lynch into ShadySands, kingjames01 as it stands. We really need more content from everyone though. while placing his vote on Shady. 2 confirmed town. 4) Voted Node - no flip on him yet though. 5) Going back to annul (confirmed town) after mislynch. With very little motivation (and refused to explain himself when I questioned it). 6) Show nested quote +Someone shoot him. We can lynch Node easier than Annul, and I want them both dead.
Medics, on me and marv.
DTs, on BC and Mattchew.
We totally got this. Calling for a medic on a confirmed (yea, he is) scum, calling vig shot on a confirmed town. He is either scum or just randomly managed to call out about every single confirmed player (except Risen) the wrong alignment. VE is my top scum read atm. 6) His post-marv-revelation behavior 6a) After having had many people saying they were suspicious of him post Marvs revelation, how did he reply? He replied with some wierd extreme confidence. Look here: + Show Spoiler +On October 04 2012 08:17 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 08:12 Kreb wrote:On October 04 2012 06:51 mkfuba07 wrote:
So, did anyone actually read what I wrote about VE? What did you think about it? Anyone?
Well, a good 5+ have expressed suspicions of VE so far. I dont think we all need to go and quote each other saying we agree. The ball is in his court, lets wait and see if he has anything to say. Please, by all means. Bring it on. I haven't done anything wrong except be wrong. That doesn't mean I'm scum. It means I'm bad at the game. At least 75% of the players in this game knew that already. :/ Here: + Show Spoiler +On October 04 2012 09:32 VisceraEyes wrote:
When you line it all up like that it makes it easy to see how laughable the case against me is. Thank you kush. Seriously, I was starting to worry until you did that. And here: + Show Spoiler +On October 04 2012 09:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
On October 04 2012 09:37 kushm4sta wrote:
You said you were going to read through the thread again so you could figure things out. Instead of making a case against someone you just sit in the thread wise cracking?
Me? Dude, we're lynching marv today. I can assure you I'm reading. I'll post something, don't you worry. It's not about the wise-cracking.
Just...trust me guy. You won't want to lynch me when it's time to actually pick someone to lynch. Im not sure why scum would really wanna do that, but its 100% not towny to do. Compare to DPs case on Keirathi for example, or the french dudes on Shiao. No matter whether you like the cases or not, both Kei and Shiao were properly there to respond to the cases like a town should. VE did something completely different. Also note how he never really commented on this afterwards either, but rather seems to be banking on it being forgotten. To me, it seems more likely he "gave up" or "lost interest" (someone already pointed that out, I think it was Coag, and VE rejected it) due to the percieved OPness/sillyness of the Paramedic role. He probably intented some kind of agressive/confident defense initally, but then just didnt care about it enough. 6b) Also note how he went trollmode with marv for a while (towny thing to do? hell no.) Its quite clear he enjoys playing with marv, which further strengthens the belief that he lost interest/gave up when Marv got caught in such a silly way. 7) Marvs motive behind his discussion with me Ok, this is a new point, but I saved maybe the best for last. Lets look again at the context of Marvs behaviour of my case. First, lets look at what I wrote: Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote:
Overall I must say its remarkable how how people switch so fast to Node because of what I would call a very weak case made by a person who is currently set up to have a wagon starting on him (austin). I'd say its very likely we have at least one scum in the austin/VE/marv trio. Two is definitely possible too. All three? Maybe not, it would be a bit too obvious I feel.
Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote:
. I dont think Node is scum. The case is weak and the wagon strange.
Later I also kinda halfassed bunched Kush into my group of scummy people. So what do we know now: - Node is scum (I was wrong) - Austin was twon (I was wrong) - Marv is scum (I was right) Now, lets for a moment assume both VE and Kush are town. And with that assumption in mind, lets look at what Marv had to say about my case: Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 20:01 marvellosity wrote:
On October 02 2012 18:54 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 17:47 thrawn2112 wrote:
Kush are you scum?
People have been calling him out for saying scummy sounding stuff, and some people have said that he's not playing at all like his scum meta. Well I don't think he's playing like his town meta. He's known for saying dumb stuff from time to time as either town/mafia but this game he just seems way too illogical, even taking his meta into account. In the last game I played with him where he was town he was extremely helpful and the flames were few and far between. His scum meta has been exposed to be full of faked anger, extreme failures of logic, and constant insults towards everyone in the game. The way he's playing this game strikes me as a slightly toned down version of his scum meta. He rolled scum twice in a row and everyone got to see his scum play, so he would have changed his meta somewhat if he were to roll scum again. But it still seems like he's putting up somewhat of an act, and in the games where he was town you could see right through to his obviously convoluted townie thought process. While reading through his posts in this game I get this huge "I don't give a shit" vibe about his feelings towards the lynch and he's said several things that suggest he's not trying very hard or caring about his vote, and that's not the town kush I know.
Town kush = sometimes says dumb stuff, but you can see right through to his thought process and he's very cooperative in general
Scum kush = faked anger, extreme stupidity at times, and likes to throw around insults very often
This game = looks more like his scum meta than his town meta. He's being too illogical/rude for me to be able to write it off as his "scummy town-meta"
Hmm, this kinda rivals marv's earlier claim about Kush. And considering: -I think marv acted scummy in the Node case -marv kinda defended Kush when early votes started to land on him -Kush was also an early joiner of the Node wagon -You think Kush is playing a toned down scum game Kush could definitely earn a spot in my scummy-looking group of austin/VE/Marv.
Here. Let me tell you why you're fucking awful. You're fucking awful because you've already managed to make a 4-man connection before anyone involved (node, austin, kush). Who do you think is better at understanding meta, newbie thrawn (no offence intended at all, just fact) or me?
Who *have* we had flipped? We've had Shady flipped. Confirmed town. What drugs are you on when you're looking at those on the Node wagon as the most culpable, instead of the people who derailed it back to Shady?
Damn right I defended kush, I think he's playing to his town meta far more than his scum meta, and he's such a god damn easy lynch for scum just to park on going "lol scumslip must be scum."
Looking at the voting list, the interesting points are players like BC, Matt, Keir, talis. It became clear kj wasn't a realistic lynch target with plenty of time to spare. BC came in, contributed some, then totally disappeared. Not sure on Keir. talis may be the worst of the bunch with his awful case on VE and subsequent total disappearance.
Later turning into: Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 05:31 marvellosity wrote:
On October 03 2012 05:27 austinmcc wrote:
Marv, I don't know kreb's play well/at all, but right now I'm not as scummy on him as I am on other players, and at the very least it seems that pushing him is just going to get things more and more twisted up.
aye, it's why I've read his response and I'm not replying for now, as it's fruitless. I'm seeing him as misguided townie atm.
Now, specifically note how he is targetting me. Not the part of my case directed to him, but me (and my case) as a whole. Now, why would you want to do that if I only were right about Marv being scummy!!?? Why would he react like that if I was wrong about Node, Austin, VE and Kush?!!?Theres absolutely no reason to. The aggressiveness of his defense clearly tells me I was onto something more than just him. If he was the only thing I had right in my post, theres several other much better approaches he couldve used to abuse my mis-reads. He could have agreed on it, admitting it was wierd (which likely would have had me going straight after VE), knowing that there was a very high chance I'd go after a town. But he didnt. He could have defended himself alone, citing town reads on VE as reason why he followed him. He didnt. He could have not said anything at all, hoping it would turn into a austin or VE lynch. He didnt. Instead he decided to go and agressively discredit me and as such my whole case. And I just cant see why he would do that if the only thing I predicted right was Marvs scummyness. I think I must have hit something more to motivate this response. And while it could possible be Kush, I think VE is the most likely person. Or hell, maybe even both. Bonus point + Show Spoiler +This is definitely confirmation bias if I somehow would be wrong about all this, but out of all replies to the mkfuba/hapa thing, this still stood out to me: [B]On October 06 2012 21:10 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Vote: Hapa
Twice in one game. Damn fine work guys. Sick crumb fuba. Really? Is that geniune happiness or irony and bitterness?
That is BEFORE this whole Kush claim shenanigans. That is primarily from day1+night1. And since then, the amount of scum-reads on VE HAS INCREASED STEADILY.
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Btw, for anyone else doubting VEs scummyness (Im honestly surprised not more people see it).
Read that post of mine:
+ Show Spoiler +On October 09 2012 08:23 Kreb wrote:Ok, time to post something before the night kills as I promised. Here are the reason I will most likely be voting VE next day if I'm alive. Also note that a lot of these things have already been posted, but with all the different tells which have been posted throughout the thread its probably a good idea to bunch them together somewhere. 1) The Node wagon. This post: + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 10:54 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today.
I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin.
is the most scummy thing about it. 1a) He only says he read through austins filters, but he very nicely avoids posting what he found in it. Instead he refers to "the two walls of his" as if that somehow makes everything 100% clear. He still, as of today, has not explained why he changed. 1b) His extremely weak (on unexisting) reason to switch to Node. Someone (who people seem to regard a very strong player) should not change that easily to such a weak case it was. 2) Refusing to answer to said cases and other quetions I just know what I asked him stuff myself, like this: + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 19:54 Kreb wrote:@VEShow nested quote +On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part.
The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 13:40 VisceraEyes wrote:I really like austin all of a sudden. And really dislike Mattchew. It's going to be an eventful night guys. Sleep tight. Three lines of text, three questions: 1) What gave you the scum-read on annul? You were targetting him previously but to my knowledge your last stance on him was this: Show nested quote +At this point I'm null - I got a false read on him early on, and while I think his anger at me seems a little contrived, I know I've overreacted once or twice to people calling my posts stupid or something. Once that I remember for sure. Maybe twice. Has this changed? If so, why? 2) Why do you like austin? 3) Why do you dislike Mattchew? And he also refused to comment at all on my other accusations. To my knowledge he still hasnt said a word on the Node wagon yet. 3) The way he targetted annul 3a) His targetting D1 actually seemed to have a bit of reason behind it, but right after the Shady mislynch he says this: + Show Spoiler +On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part.
The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul. Once again, no explanation. Just straight up calling annul scum. It goes on for a while and the only legitimate reason I could see for his targetting of annul was the fact that annul suggested a vote switch (to ZBoson i think) very close to the deadline even though he had questioned vote switching before. While I did agree on that particular point against annul, that alone did in no way motivate the way VE attacked him. Also, it seemed like that reason only was revealed a bit after he had already started attacking annul, like he found about it later. A proper townie would have explained first and targetted after. 3b) Also he tried to paint annul as some really crafty mafia so the rest of us would be suspicious of him too, even though there wasnt as much to be suspicious of. mkfuba made a good case on that part: + Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 23:51 mkfuba07 wrote:Alright, I'm going to be getting a bit more rest since I woke up for Code S. Current thoughts: I could definitely see VE being scum. His unfortunate scumhunting is a big piece of the puzzle, but his interaction with annul keeps nagging at me. Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 09:48 VisceraEyes wrote:On October 03 2012 09:45 kushm4sta wrote:On October 03 2012 09:33 annul wrote:
whats with all the lies by this cabal? "you not pushing anyone" o rly who would you say you've pushed?? Who have you made a good case on? The longest post by far in your filter is a mostly omgus defence. "Rofl"s everywhere. VE has said that annul plays a scary mafia... If this is his scumplay how is this scary? It seems like he is making himself quite an obvious target for lynching if he is mafia. That's what you think...until he actually feels like he might be lynched. Then watch. *shiver* Palmar couldn't get the guy lynched. PALMAR. And his newbie brigade was in full force at the time! Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 10:31 VisceraEyes wrote:On October 03 2012 10:21 annul wrote:On October 03 2012 09:48 VisceraEyes wrote:On October 03 2012 09:45 kushm4sta wrote:On October 03 2012 09:33 annul wrote:
whats with all the lies by this cabal? "you not pushing anyone" o rly who would you say you've pushed?? Who have you made a good case on? The longest post by far in your filter is a mostly omgus defence. "Rofl"s everywhere. VE has said that annul plays a scary mafia... If this is his scumplay how is this scary? It seems like he is making himself quite an obvious target for lynching if he is mafia. That's what you think...until he actually feels like he might be lynched. Then watch. *shiver* Palmar couldn't get the guy lynched. PALMAR. And his newbie brigade was in full force at the time! if i had such magical "lynch evasion" skills, wouldnt i have these same skills as a green about to be lynched too? What's your point? Did I ever say it was a skill you exclusively possess as scum? I didn't think I did :/ It took me a while to figure out why I was so annoyed by these posts, but I think I've figured it out. VE first emphasizes that as scum annul can become "scary" (which I assume means that he can appear to become a good contributor, though VE never actually says how annul becomes "scary"), but leaves out the fact that he might do the same exact thing as town. It doesn't feel like VE is trying to inform the town of annul's apparent meta, as much as emphasize the scummy aspects of annul's meta and attribute it entirely to scum-annul. It would feel the same way if marv came in and said that I can be incredibly wishy-washy as scum. He's emphasized in previous games that I am the master of wishy-washiness regardless of alignment (though I've only ever been scum once, for little over a day). If he were to come into this game and try to convince everyone that I'm only wishy-washy when I'm scum, then I would be incredibly suspicious of him (In fact, I believe that's part of why he avoided talking about me at all despite my case being in the same post as the Node one). In VE's case, it looks like he tried to do a similar thing, and then when annul called him out on it he tried to minimize the effect. Why say that scum-annul can be "scary" if town-annul can also be "scary" unless you're trying to make vigis take the shot without a proper reason? It seems like a pretty scummy interaction from VE. I'd really like to hear thoughts from others, as this is the first thing I feel pretty confident about this game. Finally, I'm still waiting on input from mementoss... I know that 15 pages is a lot to go through, but I'm not going to put him aside just because one of the people who was calling him out is going to flip scum. There are other lurkers, but he's promised more contributions twice now, and we've seen nothing from it. 4) Meta reads This isnt something I can really confirm but I'll add it since it makes sence because of how many peopel have expressed them. Talismania started off by calling his meta scummy early D1. That kinda died off (probably for a good reason), but since then a lot of people have commented on how VE as town is MUCH more active, sometimes/often (?) something of a town leader and being much more contributory than how he is this game. 5) Extremely scummy (or bad if he really is town) scumhunting Already posted about this, here: + Show Spoiler +On October 03 2012 21:33 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 21:14 Z-BosoN wrote:
Couple of thoughts from reading marvs filter, now that he is pretty much confirmed scum.
First off, his reaction to kreb makes me raise an eyebrow. He was extremely aggressive for something that could simply have been a townie thought. Kreb also hadn't made an association case, he simply said that some people looked scummy. Also, kreb said that marvs node push made him look scummy and generally made a weak semicase vs marv. It didn't feel legit and marvs reaction felt forced. I myself don't know what I'm implying but I think this interaction will become useful later.
There's also some interesting info regarding the node push. Marv stated that it didn't make sense at all from a mafia perspective, yet made the push. Pretty much an attempt at clearing suspicion. Now, I'm not gonna go and start accusing everyone on the node lynch because I myself sheeped it, as town. But Afaik, VE and marv basically started the Node push, and pretty much at the same time.
Initially I thought this would clear node, but it's pretty easy to not actually make it go through as mafia.
So, my conclusion from this is: VE looks pretty damn scummy right now. 1) He basically claimed he got RB(and its almost factual that at least one kill didn't go through). 2) marv showed weird hostility on the association kreb didn't make. 3) he co-led the Node push with another scum at the same time -> came from qt, quite possibly. They were pretty much caught with their pants down if it was indeed scum-influenced. Agreed. VE also didnt reply to any questions I asked him afterwards, nor did he reply to me calling him out for a very weak vote-switch to Node (left it to marv to do the dirty work by agressively defending my accusations while also clogging up the thread with plenty of posts?). He has also, should he be town, been either terribly bad or terribly unlucky in his scumhunting. Lets look at a few people he has touched on: 1) Show nested quote +I've got my eye on ShadySands, annul and Mattchew right now. Pretty sure there's scum buried deep within that trio. 2 confirmed town flips. 2) Then the attack on annul - confirmed town flip. 3) After dropping annul, posting this Show nested quote +I'm willing to lynch into ShadySands, kingjames01 as it stands. We really need more content from everyone though. while placing his vote on Shady. 2 confirmed town. 4) Voted Node - no flip on him yet though. 5) Going back to annul (confirmed town) after mislynch. With very little motivation (and refused to explain himself when I questioned it). 6) Show nested quote +Someone shoot him. We can lynch Node easier than Annul, and I want them both dead.
Medics, on me and marv.
DTs, on BC and Mattchew.
We totally got this. Calling for a medic on a confirmed (yea, he is) scum, calling vig shot on a confirmed town. He is either scum or just randomly managed to call out about every single confirmed player (except Risen) the wrong alignment. VE is my top scum read atm. 6) His post-marv-revelation behavior 6a) After having had many people saying they were suspicious of him post Marvs revelation, how did he reply? He replied with some wierd extreme confidence. Look here: + Show Spoiler +On October 04 2012 08:17 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 08:12 Kreb wrote:On October 04 2012 06:51 mkfuba07 wrote:
So, did anyone actually read what I wrote about VE? What did you think about it? Anyone?
Well, a good 5+ have expressed suspicions of VE so far. I dont think we all need to go and quote each other saying we agree. The ball is in his court, lets wait and see if he has anything to say. Please, by all means. Bring it on. I haven't done anything wrong except be wrong. That doesn't mean I'm scum. It means I'm bad at the game. At least 75% of the players in this game knew that already. :/ Here: + Show Spoiler +On October 04 2012 09:32 VisceraEyes wrote:
When you line it all up like that it makes it easy to see how laughable the case against me is. Thank you kush. Seriously, I was starting to worry until you did that. And here: + Show Spoiler +On October 04 2012 09:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
On October 04 2012 09:37 kushm4sta wrote:
You said you were going to read through the thread again so you could figure things out. Instead of making a case against someone you just sit in the thread wise cracking?
Me? Dude, we're lynching marv today. I can assure you I'm reading. I'll post something, don't you worry. It's not about the wise-cracking.
Just...trust me guy. You won't want to lynch me when it's time to actually pick someone to lynch. Im not sure why scum would really wanna do that, but its 100% not towny to do. Compare to DPs case on Keirathi for example, or the french dudes on Shiao. No matter whether you like the cases or not, both Kei and Shiao were properly there to respond to the cases like a town should. VE did something completely different. Also note how he never really commented on this afterwards either, but rather seems to be banking on it being forgotten. To me, it seems more likely he "gave up" or "lost interest" (someone already pointed that out, I think it was Coag, and VE rejected it) due to the percieved OPness/sillyness of the Paramedic role. He probably intented some kind of agressive/confident defense initally, but then just didnt care about it enough. 6b) Also note how he went trollmode with marv for a while (towny thing to do? hell no.) Its quite clear he enjoys playing with marv, which further strengthens the belief that he lost interest/gave up when Marv got caught in such a silly way. 7) Marvs motive behind his discussion with me Ok, this is a new point, but I saved maybe the best for last. Lets look again at the context of Marvs behaviour of my case. First, lets look at what I wrote: Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote:
Overall I must say its remarkable how how people switch so fast to Node because of what I would call a very weak case made by a person who is currently set up to have a wagon starting on him (austin). I'd say its very likely we have at least one scum in the austin/VE/marv trio. Two is definitely possible too. All three? Maybe not, it would be a bit too obvious I feel.
Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:35 Kreb wrote:
. I dont think Node is scum. The case is weak and the wagon strange.
Later I also kinda halfassed bunched Kush into my group of scummy people. So what do we know now: - Node is scum (I was wrong) - Austin was twon (I was wrong) - Marv is scum (I was right) Now, lets for a moment assume both VE and Kush are town. And with that assumption in mind, lets look at what Marv had to say about my case: Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 20:01 marvellosity wrote:
On October 02 2012 18:54 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 17:47 thrawn2112 wrote:
Kush are you scum?
People have been calling him out for saying scummy sounding stuff, and some people have said that he's not playing at all like his scum meta. Well I don't think he's playing like his town meta. He's known for saying dumb stuff from time to time as either town/mafia but this game he just seems way too illogical, even taking his meta into account. In the last game I played with him where he was town he was extremely helpful and the flames were few and far between. His scum meta has been exposed to be full of faked anger, extreme failures of logic, and constant insults towards everyone in the game. The way he's playing this game strikes me as a slightly toned down version of his scum meta. He rolled scum twice in a row and everyone got to see his scum play, so he would have changed his meta somewhat if he were to roll scum again. But it still seems like he's putting up somewhat of an act, and in the games where he was town you could see right through to his obviously convoluted townie thought process. While reading through his posts in this game I get this huge "I don't give a shit" vibe about his feelings towards the lynch and he's said several things that suggest he's not trying very hard or caring about his vote, and that's not the town kush I know.
Town kush = sometimes says dumb stuff, but you can see right through to his thought process and he's very cooperative in general
Scum kush = faked anger, extreme stupidity at times, and likes to throw around insults very often
This game = looks more like his scum meta than his town meta. He's being too illogical/rude for me to be able to write it off as his "scummy town-meta"
Hmm, this kinda rivals marv's earlier claim about Kush. And considering: -I think marv acted scummy in the Node case -marv kinda defended Kush when early votes started to land on him -Kush was also an early joiner of the Node wagon -You think Kush is playing a toned down scum game Kush could definitely earn a spot in my scummy-looking group of austin/VE/Marv.
Here. Let me tell you why you're fucking awful. You're fucking awful because you've already managed to make a 4-man connection before anyone involved (node, austin, kush). Who do you think is better at understanding meta, newbie thrawn (no offence intended at all, just fact) or me?
Who *have* we had flipped? We've had Shady flipped. Confirmed town. What drugs are you on when you're looking at those on the Node wagon as the most culpable, instead of the people who derailed it back to Shady?
Damn right I defended kush, I think he's playing to his town meta far more than his scum meta, and he's such a god damn easy lynch for scum just to park on going "lol scumslip must be scum."
Looking at the voting list, the interesting points are players like BC, Matt, Keir, talis. It became clear kj wasn't a realistic lynch target with plenty of time to spare. BC came in, contributed some, then totally disappeared. Not sure on Keir. talis may be the worst of the bunch with his awful case on VE and subsequent total disappearance.
Later turning into: Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 05:31 marvellosity wrote:
On October 03 2012 05:27 austinmcc wrote:
Marv, I don't know kreb's play well/at all, but right now I'm not as scummy on him as I am on other players, and at the very least it seems that pushing him is just going to get things more and more twisted up.
aye, it's why I've read his response and I'm not replying for now, as it's fruitless. I'm seeing him as misguided townie atm.
Now, specifically note how he is targetting me. Not the part of my case directed to him, but me (and my case) as a whole. Now, why would you want to do that if I only were right about Marv being scummy!!?? Why would he react like that if I was wrong about Node, Austin, VE and Kush?!!?Theres absolutely no reason to. The aggressiveness of his defense clearly tells me I was onto something more than just him. If he was the only thing I had right in my post, theres several other much better approaches he couldve used to abuse my mis-reads. He could have agreed on it, admitting it was wierd (which likely would have had me going straight after VE), knowing that there was a very high chance I'd go after a town. But he didnt. He could have defended himself alone, citing town reads on VE as reason why he followed him. He didnt. He could have not said anything at all, hoping it would turn into a austin or VE lynch. He didnt. Instead he decided to go and agressively discredit me and as such my whole case. And I just cant see why he would do that if the only thing I predicted right was Marvs scummyness. I think I must have hit something more to motivate this response. And while it could possible be Kush, I think VE is the most likely person. Or hell, maybe even both. Bonus point + Show Spoiler +This is definitely confirmation bias if I somehow would be wrong about all this, but out of all replies to the mkfuba/hapa thing, this still stood out to me: On October 06 2012 21:10 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Vote: Hapa
Twice in one game. Damn fine work guys. Sick crumb fuba. Really? Is that geniune happiness or irony and bitterness?
And then read his "defense":
[B]On October 09 2012 08:37 VisceraEyes wrote: That whole case has 4 quotes from me, and you didn't comment on any of them. However, you've quoted marv extensively and even yourself a couple of times, with plenty of comment on those posts. As such, there's nothing for me to respond to. Have a nice day Kreb.
Pretty solid defense adressing all my points, eh?
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Oh yea, there was that meta read on me too by VE, almost forgot. :D
Im glad you brought it up. VE trying to get votes going on me on Day5 due to a new meta read from my first game ever where he presumes things happening. Im totally proud of myself thats the best you could find. Thank you, you made me all warm and fuzzy inside there VE.
Rererence:
+ Show Spoiler +On October 13 2012 08:39 VisceraEyes wrote:This is town Kreb. 4 pages of filter in 2 game days, and he was then night-killed. Presumably for being too townie. This game hasn't been like...intimidating at all - we've had 2 scums handed to us on a silver platter and the following lynch, my red check, was pretty much automatic too. Yet, in spite of this, Kreb has had nothing substantial to contribute except hopping on bandwagons and (more recently) tunneling me like he's got a sure thing. ##Vote: Kreb
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On October 13 2012 22:29 Mementoss wrote:
also why is everyone voting kreb too
Because
- I used the word interesting (HOW COULD A TOWN SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THIS GAME TO BE INTERESTING!?!??!?!?!)
- My post density was different during my very first noob game
- I didnt blindly 100% tunnel VE but rather considered what he was saying
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On a different note: Im starting to think 3rd party on sloosh. His play doesnt seem...... "aligned" with the scum and what I'd expect the scum to do. He's sticking his head out expressing wierd opinions a bit too much.
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On October 14 2012 01:59 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 20:08 Kreb wrote:Oh yea, there was that meta read on me too by VE, almost forgot. :D Im glad you brought it up. VE trying to get votes going on me on Day5 due to a new meta read from my first game ever where he presumes things happening. Im totally proud of myself thats the best you could find. Thank you, you made me all warm and fuzzy inside there VE. Rererence: + Show Spoiler +On October 13 2012 08:39 VisceraEyes wrote:This is town Kreb. 4 pages of filter in 2 game days, and he was then night-killed. Presumably for being too townie. This game hasn't been like...intimidating at all - we've had 2 scums handed to us on a silver platter and the following lynch, my red check, was pretty much automatic too. Yet, in spite of this, Kreb has had nothing substantial to contribute except hopping on bandwagons and (more recently) tunneling me like he's got a sure thing. ##Vote: Kreb I don't understand the point of this post. My point was that in the game I linked, Kreb is very obviously town...there's no question in reading the filter that it's a townie's filter. In this game, he's hiding behind tunneling me to avoid doing anything. In the game I posted he had 4 pages by N2 - in this game by the time I posted this, he had 5 pages by D4. It's like - it's terribly damning imo.
You mean damning like....like.....like...... like Talis activity tell on you!? :O
On October 02 2012 05:35 VisceraEyes wrote:
talis stfu about my "activity tell" and tell me what you think of the content of my posts please. You haven't commented on anything I've said - only said you don't like how much I've said. I know how you work bro, take that tinfoil had off and think for a minute.
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To people voting Mattchew, whats your thoughts on Sloosh and Shiao? Arent they in they all largely in the same boat? If Im to drop VE (which I really dont like the thought of) for a vote on someone else, they all seem to fall into largely the same category of players playing less contributory/pro-town then they should be able to.
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Can we get a votecount? There like votes everywhere....
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I didnt find anything strange about DP.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 12 2012 09:34 DarthPunk wrote:
I believe that VE is a cop of some description. Claiming to trade one for one with Kush of all people is just silly. Especially after Scum lost Marv and Hapa consecutively. What you are suggesting is that after scum lost two members the rest of them decide that VisceraEyes known to be a good scum player should fake claim cop with a green check on kush.
I find that scenario INCREDIBLY unlikely. Sanity is certainly in question. AS is the possibility of a framer or something similar. But we should not be lynching VE right now.
I find it very interesting that Z - Boson has dropped his pressure of me. Despite what he 'foresaw' (despite thinking it was highly unlikely) in his case coming true.
I want to lynch Z - Boson. He clearly tried to entrap me with a green kush flip and his case relied upon this. Despite his vote for kush and stating kush was 75% red.
He also stopped the lynch of scum day one by throwing away his vote. Even though he says he wasnted neither to get lynched. What he was actually doing, and every thinking rational individual would know this, was lynching shady and saving scum.
His 'I thought neither was scum so voted for neither' Is silly as it was clear that his actions would cause a shady lynch. And save node.
What he actually did with his vote was: I prefer shady to be lynched rather than node.
That is Scummy. Combine it with trying to entrap me with clear foreknowledge of kush's flip Despite calling him red and voting for him.
he expressed doubt over kush;s alignment. And instead of attempting to lynch someone else like the others who doubted the claim. He used his doubt to set up a further mislynch
Z- Boson is scum and must be lynched.
Seems well motivated enough. At least nothing I'd vote on him for atm. ZB also came out as town.
But Im totally not liking the current situation with like 5 (?) ppl sitting on 1-2 votes. And to me Shiao, Matt and Sloosh all look kinda scummy but none of them like super scummy. We could be hitting everything if we randomly shoot into that trio... Scum, Town or 3rd party. The thing is, mafia will likely not allow a wagon to start on the likely 1-2 mafia in there unless town really gets together....
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On October 14 2012 08:24 VisceraEyes wrote:
He accused ZBos of "attempting to entrap [DarthPunk] with clear foreknowledge of Kush's flip" when he himself was CERTAIN of Kush's guilt and was among the few voteswitching at the end of the day.
You don't find that the least bit ODD Kreb? It's even bolded in the quote you posted...
A little bit odd, yea. And you mean DP was certain of Kush not being guildy right? But I really dont feel like lynching into people making one or two scummy looking moves when others have been scummy all game (you actively scummy, the three others I mentioned passively scummy by just not really doing shit). Well, Im not completely against a DP lynch, but its a shot in the dark imo and he is at best like my 3rd-5th most favored target.
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This situation making me nervous as fuck. Still votes everywhere.
Can everyone who hasnt voted yet please throw out your votes on your top scum reads? Please.
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Who hasnt voted? DP and ZB?
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I really doubt ZB is gonna happen unless you have new stuff going on him dude.
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Im feeling Im gonna have to stay up for a looong time today....
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EPT
