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marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 23 2012 11:00 GMT
#1341
On September 23 2012 05:08 austinmcc wrote:
Marv isn't doing that this game because he's bogged down with Palmar. EVEN if palmar is mafia, there's no need to shoot marv. Palmar's existence and taunting makes marv near-useless as townie, A FACT WHICH HE RECOGNIZES TO SOME EXTENT - + Show Spoiler +
On September 21 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote:
I'm so behind, I hadn't even got on to considering austin's posts yet :<
On September 21 2012 09:45 marvellosity wrote:
no, I mean I literally had been talking to you and looking at Bluelightz's past games and shit, so i was putting austin's posts aside for a moment.

I'll have a proper look myself; obviously I'd had some niggles as I asked you that question about her interactions with iamp a little earlier.
On September 21 2012 10:57 marvellosity wrote:
I need to read the thread more closely if i'm missing shit like that on first pass

.


Why is austin misrepresenting what's going on in thread? Take this. "Palmar's existence makes marv near-useless" and he then proceeds to quote a bunch of quotes. Let's break it down.

Quotes 1) and 2) were referencing how I hadn't looked at austin's posts on Ange, because I was discussing Bluelightz with Hapahauli. In what way, in what universe, is this me getting bogged down with Palmar? It's quite the opposite. I hadn't gotten around to austin's posts because I was discussing with Hapa a player that had absolutely nothing to do with Palmar. It even fucking says so in the quotes, why is austin suggesting it was because I was bogged down with Palmar? The final quote was that I missed something and I suck, which was just an admission I felt bad for missing it (yeah, I do miss stuff).

I find austin's entire argument that the Palmar dispute got my bugged down as utterly disingenuous. Day 2, I

1) Discussed Bluelightz at length with Hapa
2) Was an active part of the discussion on Ange and her posts around deadline;
3) Examined Hiro's past games, his conduct in this game, and changed my read on him,
as well as
4) Getting Palmar lynched.

Yes, I've spent plenty of time on Palmar, but suggesting that's all I've done is actually just an outright lie.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 23 2012 11:14 GMT
#1342
On the flip side of this, austin did seem to take a somewhat active part in persuading Hapa that Palmar was being useless and that coming into the thread one time != participating/caring.

So I'm entertaining the notion that austin could just be playing with pants-on-head at various points in this game rather than be scum. Not entirely sure which it is right now. Still leaning scum though.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
September 23 2012 13:02 GMT
#1343
On September 23 2012 20:14 marvellosity wrote:
On the flip side of this, austin did seem to take a somewhat active part in persuading Hapa that Palmar was being useless and that coming into the thread one time != participating/caring.

So I'm entertaining the notion that austin could just be playing with pants-on-head at various points in this game rather than be scum. Not entirely sure which it is right now. Still leaning scum though.

Ugh. I don't think there's any chance I'm the NK tonight after all this, but I'll try and give what I can on the Palmar stuff today. It was mainly just some nagging little feelings. One of them you referenced above.


On September 23 2012 05:21 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2012 05:18 Hapahauli wrote:
Because it seems that Palmar cares. He's actually pushing his reads.

I don't see Palmar caring. I don't see him pushing his reads.

The thing I see from him that's most pushing his reads is requesting that we kill him so we'll listen. But that's not really being helpful, that's just being lazy all game and counting on you dying to make up for your lack of usefulness while alive.
This comes AFTER I've "mostly come around." This is the main thing that had me past that, though, and willing to vote palmar if people would have gotten off Hiro and gone back to a Palmar lynch at this point.

I was being entirely truthful with this statement, the most he had done to push his reads was to ask us to kill him. Which is fine and dandy if you've actually been giving full-throated reads. But Palmar had given little to no thought to a lot of the players in the game, afaik Zephirdd and Bluelightz don't come up much/at all (?), and to some of the remainder was still basing his reads on what had happened in the first 5 pages (iamperfection).

I didn't really like the whole "kill me so you can trust my reads, which don't really exist on a lot of players, and also I'm not trying to give you guys more to work with when I die." Once he became a serious lynch candidate, even if he's town and wants us to kill him in order to trust him, he should have changed his posting. Been more informative, been as WIFOMy as he wanted because he knew he'd flip green, but throw everything into thread he could. Never did, yet was still asking us to kill him in order to verify the truthfulness on just the tiny amount of thoughts he'd given.


I dunno, my comments on Palmar DO look shady. At the same time, if you read them, you hopefully see a progression of town --> unsure --> mostly coming around --> GET OFF OF HIRO AND VOTE ANGE (preferably) OR PALMAR. Don't know if that's actually townie or not, especially when I'm not explaining the changes at all/fully.

And yes marv, you weren't useless. More hyperbole. But apart from talking about bluelightz and not reading when I started looking heavily at ange, one of the quotes is just you saying you weren't reading this game close enough. That wasn't time specific. I 100% think you let palmar get your goat (see your D1 OMGUS, see all the "Palmar useless again" posts) and allowed him to use you to clog thread and to be...less than fully useful.
Fe fi fo fum.
iamperfection
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9648 Posts
September 23 2012 13:20 GMT
#1344
@ austin in light of the flip what do you think is the most likely scenario now regarding the remaining scum?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168&currentpage=78#1551
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 23 2012 13:21 GMT
#1345
It wasn't that I wasn't reading what you had to say about Ange, it's that I was concentrating on BL at the time before moving on to something else.

I'm not going to say my views/interactions Palmar have always been emotion free, because that would be silly, but you're looking at things upside down imo. Actually Palmar's accusation of me got me super-invested in this game whereas before I was not. Regularly dying night 1 and 2 gradually erodes your motivation to be invested in a game as you might like, and so having the town's gaze on me forced me to get my butt in gear.

In short, Palmar's presence in this game has caused me to be more emotional than I might have been otherwise, but more importantly, more invested too. When I'm pretty sure someone is scum, I snipe at them - perhaps it's not optimal, but it's what I do. I called Zealos a total idiot when he was scum in Magic Mini when I was pursuing him, I called JingleHell a squirmy little bitch when I was pursuing him in Mad Men.

I tunnel people for shit, and hey, I'm not going to apologise for it - because one thing I am good at is getting who I want lynched. When I really want someone to die, they die, whether people like how I went about it or not.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
September 23 2012 13:34 GMT
#1346
On September 23 2012 22:21 marvellosity wrote:
It wasn't that I wasn't reading what you had to say about Ange, it's that I was concentrating on BL at the time before moving on to something else.

I'm not going to say my views/interactions Palmar have always been emotion free, because that would be silly, but you're looking at things upside down imo. Actually Palmar's accusation of me got me super-invested in this game whereas before I was not. Regularly dying night 1 and 2 gradually erodes your motivation to be invested in a game as you might like, and so having the town's gaze on me forced me to get my butt in gear.

In short, Palmar's presence in this game has caused me to be more emotional than I might have been otherwise, but more importantly, more invested too. When I'm pretty sure someone is scum, I snipe at them - perhaps it's not optimal, but it's what I do. I called Zealos a total idiot when he was scum in Magic Mini when I was pursuing him, I called JingleHell a squirmy little bitch when I was pursuing him in Mad Men.

I tunnel people for shit, and hey, I'm not going to apologise for it - because one thing I am good at is getting who I want lynched. When I really want someone to die, they die, whether people like how I went about it or not.

True. I'm always thinking in terms of movie mini. Like, after that game, had I been you, I would be hypervigilant in the future about not OMGUSing and not being so reactionary.
Fe fi fo fum.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 23 2012 13:39 GMT
#1347
You're drawing too many similarities where they don't exist, though.

VE tunnelled me so hard and in the end I believed he had to be scum because no townie would be so blind. Most of why I felt VE was scum was on how he interacted with me.

Here I went to quite a lot of effort to remove as much as possible the interactions between me and Palmar (other than the initial silly OMGUS). My case rested on his (lack of) views on prplhz, Ange, Hiro, and his lack of investment in the game, and how this fitted his scum meta to a tee.

From a personal point of view, I was extremely convinced that a town Palmar wouldn't still be thinking I was scum by the middle of Day 2, which helped firm my own read up. But I didn't bring this to the thread because I knew it was pointless and unconvincing.

My case on Palmar though had practically nothing to do with OMGUS (even though it started that way).
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
September 23 2012 13:53 GMT
#1348
On September 23 2012 22:20 iamperfection wrote:
@ austin in light of the flip what do you think is the most likely scenario now regarding the remaining scum?

I still think ange is scum, that's independent of palmar. I think the question about confirming the mason claim + not responding to that at all + seemingly lynching whether they claimed mason or not = scum in my mind.

The rest is all super hypothetical, but I'll spew some nonsense. I'm assuming 3 scum no SK at this point, that's "most likely" afaik. Thoughts:

Ange's response to my mountain question was really cagey. When grush has responded, he's tended to follow a pattern of "what is the equivalent of that descriptor in mafia terms (tallest = what in mafia game?, like that), and then answer based off of what he thinks a descriptor means in terms of mafia. Sometimes he's failed to answer, but still provided the reasoning for what he thinks a descriptor means. Ange's answer was just names. THIS IS NOT A GOOD REASON TO LYNCH SOMEONE OR FIND SOMEONE SCUMMY. BUT, I can't help but interpret her answer. The short, cagey answers make me worried. No reasoning, no explanation, no nothing. Ange hasn't played in either of the games I've asked grush similar questions. I haven't explained why I ask those questions. Her answers, as I see them, show that she doesn't want to reveal her hand at all, and just gives names. I worry about that, and the fact that she does so makes me think that IF she's scum, then the remaining scum (assuming 3) is someone who HAS played in PTP3 or LVII, or at the very least obsed them (If I got those questions from someone, I'd have no clue why they were asking. Ange didn't play in either of those games. Ange should find those questions VERY ODD. She answered them, which to me indicates that someone in QT told her about that stupid questions I've been asking Grush). Therefore, IF scumange, THEN scumsomeonewhoplayedinoneofthose games, leading me to sort of discard bluelightz as scum (I believe iamperfection, marv, hiro, zephir all played in or read those games).

Another ange thought, her response to votes when she came back was very long, very thorough, pretty well thought out. Gut read - that post was crafted, and someone with at least a little experience in playing scum helped shape that in QT. That doesn't really get me anything though as I know palmar was alive at the point that answer was crafted, so ange's post doesn't necessarily give away anything about the 3rd scum if 3 scum.

I need to fully reread Hiro. I just lynched him for being off/less active in PTP3 than I remembered him in town games. That's the reasoning we have for the lynch here. I'm going to be hesitant to lynch on that reasoning (or loosely on that reasoning) when I mislynched on the same grounds last game. So I need to figure out where I went wrong, and see what Hiro shakes out this game. I have a mild townread on Hiro based on that Palmar entrance comment, so right now I would NOT put him as my third scum.

That leaves...marv, zephir, you (bluelightz is out based on mountain answer, hiro out atm).

For NOW, the most likely scenario is NOT marv. marv would normally not get too much cred from me for his read on palmar. but the rb helps craft a better marv town/palmar scum story, and I'll go with it for now. Since you asked it "most likely," I've got to admit that holding the rb and marv claiming it is less likely than marv town. I think it's absolutely plausible that they'd play games with the rb, but certainly not 50+% likely. Also, like I noted at the end of N1, marv/ange interactions D1 were maybe a little wonky. Guh, I really seem to want to make marv scummy here, but no. Most likely town.

So now I've got zephirdd, iamperfection for 3rd scum (still assuming 3). Right at the moment I don't have a preference between those two? Off the top of my head zephir has felt scummier I guess? I'd need to look harder at the two of you.

That answer for third scum sucks, but it's what I have right at this moment. There's the rest of my thoughts on a couple players though.
Fe fi fo fum.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 23 2012 13:56 GMT
#1349
If you were lynching him for being off-meta in PTP3, then you weren't using meta correctly. Simple as that.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
September 23 2012 13:56 GMT
#1350
On September 23 2012 22:39 marvellosity wrote:
You're drawing too many similarities where they don't exist, though.

VE tunnelled me so hard and in the end I believed he had to be scum because no townie would be so blind. Most of why I felt VE was scum was on how he interacted with me.

Here I went to quite a lot of effort to remove as much as possible the interactions between me and Palmar (other than the initial silly OMGUS). My case rested on his (lack of) views on prplhz, Ange, Hiro, and his lack of investment in the game, and how this fitted his scum meta to a tee.

From a personal point of view, I was extremely convinced that a town Palmar wouldn't still be thinking I was scum by the middle of Day 2, which helped firm my own read up. But I didn't bring this to the thread because I knew it was pointless and unconvincing.

My case on Palmar though had practically nothing to do with OMGUS (even though it started that way).

I probably am. I know that your finding him scummy wasn't pure OMGUS, and wasn't pure "not contributing." I'm just going to knee-jerk find you slightly, slightly scummy in any game where you get into a pissing match with someone else to this extent though. Which will probably end up being a bunch of games until I can get away from that.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
September 23 2012 13:59 GMT
#1351
On September 23 2012 22:56 marvellosity wrote:
If you were lynching him for being off-meta in PTP3, then you weren't using meta correctly. Simple as that.

It was part off meta, yeah. Honestly remembered a TON of little questions in Bureaucracy that then led him to reads and conclusions, and it felt in PTP3 that he was asking less little questions, and then doing less with them. I was clearly wrong in reading him as scum.

A lot of the PTP3 lynch though was also off of mechanics. Shots on him that disappeared and were only explained by the fact that he didn't flip until after being dead. So the mechanics of his role kind of made him look scummy, when townies claimed to have shot at him yet the damage was missing.
Fe fi fo fum.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 23 2012 14:02 GMT
#1352
On September 23 2012 22:59 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2012 22:56 marvellosity wrote:
If you were lynching him for being off-meta in PTP3, then you weren't using meta correctly. Simple as that.

It was part off meta, yeah. Honestly remembered a TON of little questions in Bureaucracy that then led him to reads and conclusions, and it felt in PTP3 that he was asking less little questions, and then doing less with them. I was clearly wrong in reading him as scum.

A lot of the PTP3 lynch though was also off of mechanics. Shots on him that disappeared and were only explained by the fact that he didn't flip until after being dead. So the mechanics of his role kind of made him look scummy, when townies claimed to have shot at him yet the damage was missing.


I went through PTP again earlier today and it was mostly what I expected to see from a town Hiro.

Here he contributes less, asks fewer questions, isn't trying to figure things out, while at the same time seeming more sure of what he is saying than I'd expect from town Hiro.

Also, strictly in-game, look at his behaviour Night 1/Day 2. He agrees with me on Palmar totally Night 1 ("we should be lynching Palmar off this alone") and then pops into the thread Day 2 to go "lol nice on Ange, vote Ange!" and then somewhat later goes "yeah Palmar was scum all along, vote Palmar!"

Like, there's no reasoning of his own given. He doesn't attempt to push town in any direction at all, he just turns up, votes, and leaves effectively. There's no questioning, no figuring things out, there's just vote hopping in a way too sure manner.

What has Hiro done for the last 72 hours?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
September 23 2012 14:09 GMT
#1353
I'll give him a more thorough look then. Hiro, iamperfection, zephirdd.

PTP3 pre-replacement did not get much attention from me. He may well have looked like himself during that bit and I was just lazy and didn't fully read. I think that and Bureacracy may be the only games I've played with Hiro, apart from him maybe being in one of the numbered games? But I was an idiot in LV if he was in that and wouldn't have taken anything away about his play. So I'm not going to claim to really know his play, and he may well have looked like himself.

Fe fi fo fum.
iamperfection
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9648 Posts
September 23 2012 14:27 GMT
#1354
On September 23 2012 22:53 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2012 22:20 iamperfection wrote:
@ austin in light of the flip what do you think is the most likely scenario now regarding the remaining scum?

I still think ange is scum, that's independent of palmar. I think the question about confirming the mason claim + not responding to that at all + seemingly lynching whether they claimed mason or not = scum in my mind.

The rest is all super hypothetical, but I'll spew some nonsense. I'm assuming 3 scum no SK at this point, that's "most likely" afaik. Thoughts:

Ange's response to my mountain question was really cagey. When grush has responded, he's tended to follow a pattern of "what is the equivalent of that descriptor in mafia terms (tallest = what in mafia game?, like that), and then answer based off of what he thinks a descriptor means in terms of mafia. Sometimes he's failed to answer, but still provided the reasoning for what he thinks a descriptor means. Ange's answer was just names. THIS IS NOT A GOOD REASON TO LYNCH SOMEONE OR FIND SOMEONE SCUMMY. BUT, I can't help but interpret her answer. The short, cagey answers make me worried. No reasoning, no explanation, no nothing. Ange hasn't played in either of the games I've asked grush similar questions. I haven't explained why I ask those questions. Her answers, as I see them, show that she doesn't want to reveal her hand at all, and just gives names. I worry about that, and the fact that she does so makes me think that IF she's scum, then the remaining scum (assuming 3) is someone who HAS played in PTP3 or LVII, or at the very least obsed them (If I got those questions from someone, I'd have no clue why they were asking. Ange didn't play in either of those games. Ange should find those questions VERY ODD. She answered them, which to me indicates that someone in QT told her about that stupid questions I've been asking Grush). Therefore, IF scumange, THEN scumsomeonewhoplayedinoneofthose games, leading me to sort of discard bluelightz as scum (I believe iamperfection, marv, hiro, zephir all played in or read those games).

Another ange thought, her response to votes when she came back was very long, very thorough, pretty well thought out. Gut read - that post was crafted, and someone with at least a little experience in playing scum helped shape that in QT. That doesn't really get me anything though as I know palmar was alive at the point that answer was crafted, so ange's post doesn't necessarily give away anything about the 3rd scum if 3 scum.

I need to fully reread Hiro. I just lynched him for being off/less active in PTP3 than I remembered him in town games. That's the reasoning we have for the lynch here. I'm going to be hesitant to lynch on that reasoning (or loosely on that reasoning) when I mislynched on the same grounds last game. So I need to figure out where I went wrong, and see what Hiro shakes out this game. I have a mild townread on Hiro based on that Palmar entrance comment, so right now I would NOT put him as my third scum.

That leaves...marv, zephir, you (bluelightz is out based on mountain answer, hiro out atm).

For NOW, the most likely scenario is NOT marv. marv would normally not get too much cred from me for his read on palmar. but the rb helps craft a better marv town/palmar scum story, and I'll go with it for now. Since you asked it "most likely," I've got to admit that holding the rb and marv claiming it is less likely than marv town. I think it's absolutely plausible that they'd play games with the rb, but certainly not 50+% likely. Also, like I noted at the end of N1, marv/ange interactions D1 were maybe a little wonky. Guh, I really seem to want to make marv scummy here, but no. Most likely town.

So now I've got zephirdd, iamperfection for 3rd scum (still assuming 3). Right at the moment I don't have a preference between those two? Off the top of my head zephir has felt scummier I guess? I'd need to look harder at the two of you.

That answer for third scum sucks, but it's what I have right at this moment. There's the rest of my thoughts on a couple players though.

I think your making a big stretch there and making a lot of assumptions. I think palmars whole plan was to have mis lynch on ange then probally dominate the town conversation from then on forward. A green flip i think would have caused a lot of confusion i think and the marv palmar fighting would just continue giving palmar more time to push further agendas. So im 99% certian ange is town.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168&currentpage=78#1551
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
September 23 2012 14:35 GMT
#1355
On September 23 2012 23:27 iamperfection wrote:
I think your making a big stretch there and making a lot of assumptions. I think palmars whole plan was to have mis lynch on ange then probally dominate the town conversation from then on forward. A green flip i think would have caused a lot of confusion i think and the marv palmar fighting would just continue giving palmar more time to push further agendas. So im 99% certian ange is town.

The rest is all super hypothetical, but I'll spew some nonsense.

The response to the mountain question doesn't lead to any kind of strong read, but that's where my thoughts go based on her answer.

I would ask, however, why, if Palmar's plan was to have a mis lynch on ange, he wouldn't vote ange. Is your line of thinking "Palmar knows town finds he scummy, therefore he calls ange town, hoping people will lynch her harder because she's got a townread from Palmar?" That's ALSO pretty tenuous. I'm not sure how you're interpreting Palmar's actions to yield that plan.

Fe fi fo fum.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 23 2012 14:37 GMT
#1356
you're both wifoming, although iamp was right, your post was very speculatively pointless in large parts.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
iamperfection
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9648 Posts
September 23 2012 14:38 GMT
#1357
On September 23 2012 23:35 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2012 23:27 iamperfection wrote:
I think your making a big stretch there and making a lot of assumptions. I think palmars whole plan was to have mis lynch on ange then probally dominate the town conversation from then on forward. A green flip i think would have caused a lot of confusion i think and the marv palmar fighting would just continue giving palmar more time to push further agendas. So im 99% certian ange is town.

Show nested quote +
The rest is all super hypothetical, but I'll spew some nonsense.

The response to the mountain question doesn't lead to any kind of strong read, but that's where my thoughts go based on her answer.

I would ask, however, why, if Palmar's plan was to have a mis lynch on ange, he wouldn't vote ange. Is your line of thinking "Palmar knows town finds he scummy, therefore he calls ange town, hoping people will lynch her harder because she's got a townread from Palmar?" That's ALSO pretty tenuous. I'm not sure how you're interpreting Palmar's actions to yield that plan.


he cant vote ange that would be the whole point.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168&currentpage=78#1551
iamperfection
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9648 Posts
September 23 2012 14:42 GMT
#1358
im just having a hard time thinking the two biggest wagons were both on scum.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168&currentpage=78#1551
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
September 23 2012 14:43 GMT
#1359
On September 23 2012 23:42 iamperfection wrote:
im just having a hard time thinking the two biggest wagons were both on scum.


perhaps, it does happen from time to time though
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
September 23 2012 14:50 GMT
#1360
On September 23 2012 23:37 marvellosity wrote:
you're both wifoming, although iamp was right, your post was very speculatively pointless in large parts.

I'm pointlessly very speculative in large parts. I know it's entirely speculative, but I'd rather give my full thought process behind things, and really ange's answer to the mountain question is the biggest piece of me not thinking bluelightz is scum right now.
Fe fi fo fum.
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