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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 04 2012 13:48 Risen wrote: Disregard the PM BH. I should just work on changing my meta 1 game at a time. /in My nemesis! :o | ||
Keirathi
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Keirathi
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On September 05 2012 08:22 marvellosity wrote: less of the marv-lynching and more sexytimes and cuddles. /in | ||
Keirathi
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I fkn hate getting cheesed. Everyone fortify your bases, don't get greedy, and hold for the late game and we got this. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 06 2012 05:48 prplhz wrote: also can anybody explain to me who ange777 is? A really good scumhunter. She was in Newbie XXII with me, and she basically carried the team to victory, catching a scumslip and then his two partners consecutively after the fallout from it. AFAIK that's her only game so far, but she was really impressive. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 06 2012 06:59 Risen wrote: He's saying instead of defending yourself you took the oh my god he sucks route and voted me. I don't think so. I think he's saying that you first post was Kenpachi Rule based on prplhz's first post. Then prplhz Kenpachi Rule'd you first post, and added OMGUS. Kenpachi Rule < Kenpachi Rule + OMGUS is basically what he was trying to say I think. The math makes sense, but the premise doesn't necessarily. I've seen plenty of townies go out of their way to make bogus cases based on someone's first post just to get discussion started. I don't think its particularly alignment telling. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 06 2012 07:10 prplhz wrote: I'm not really going to defend myself against your case because it is beyond horrible. It's "You are friendly and confident and you are going to rely 100% on other people's opinion on Ange777 instead of forming your own this makes you scum". Yes, this is your case. First argument makes no sense, second argument is speculating about what I might or might not do in the future which makes it void. It's like if I speculated that you were going to claim scum in the future and then I'll just vote for you now because of it. Zephirdd's case makes no sense because my vote wasn't an OMGUS, his entire post is sketchy. @Keirathi Do you actually have an opinion or are you satisfied just trying to clarify stuff that other people said? What is there to have an opinion about? Both votes are almost equally dumb, but I'm not sure how to read them alignment wise. TL Mafia in general is full of dumb early votes that almost never actually catch scum. This recent post brings up some more questions though. If you weren't "really going to defend [yourself] against [his] case because it is beyond horrible", then why did you feel the need to OMGUS his vote with a vote of your own? | ||
Keirathi
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On September 06 2012 07:24 prplhz wrote: You are saying "If you didn't think his case on you was any good then why did you vote for him?". What??? Yes. That's exactly what I'm asking. Was Risen's vote dumb? Yes. Was it scummily dumb? Hard to say for sure, but first guess would be no. If he has other scummy things to go along with it, then obviously my opinion would change. It felt a lot like a random pressure vote that happens in every game ever. Did it deserve a vote? No, I don't think it did. People make bad "cases" all the time, especially early in day1. The victim's reactions to them are just as telling as the bad case. See NMM XXII. Mordanis made a stupidly bad case on me super early in day 1. What did I do? Brushed it off with a 1-liner and kept looking for scum. Basically, I find it hard to believe that you could get a solid scum read on Risen based on his "case" considering basically every TL Mafia game starts out with an equally dumb "case". | ||
Keirathi
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On September 06 2012 07:40 prplhz wrote: @Keirathi First you don't know what to think, now you've suddenly formed a pretty strong opinion on me but no vote. I don't have a strong opinion on you. At least, certainly not strong enough for a vote yet. I don't believe in throwing votes around lightly. If you look through all of my games, I've only unvoted TWICE in all of them. I need information to make up my mind, but once I do I stick with it. That's why I'm asking you questions and writing out responses to your posts. | ||
Keirathi
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You question me every game for not taking hard stances day 1. My playstyle hasn't changed and isn't going to. I form opinions slowly and deliberately. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 07 2012 00:53 marvellosity wrote: uh huh. I went back and looked at Not Themed and noted you were hum-ha there to start with too. But not quite like this. Here (in addition to what I bolded) you've managed to say so little in quite a lot of words. All this bla-bla about kenpachi rule. And for some reason it's prplhz's vote that wasn't warranted, whereas Risen's was even more unwarranted. Prove me wrong, sweetcheeks. How was it even more unwarranted? I see them as almost equally stupid, but at least I can sort of understand Risen's vote. Someone makes that dumb vote based on someone's first post every game. | ||
Keirathi
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Not Themed. You were cop, he was VT. | ||
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On September 07 2012 01:19 Risen wrote: How long ago was that Keir? Didn't even remember it. Hmm... why would town Marvel react so strongly to this. He's played with me as scum, he knows how I am there. Maybe he thinks I'm changing purposefully b/c he's also played with me as the "scum" team for two games straight now? That's WIFOM, but he knows this, so maybe he's just analyzing my posts on their own as scummy. This begs the question, what about my posting is scummy to you Marvel? It was in...July? I think. You seemed to remember the game because in pre-game when I said "My Nemesis!" you replied to me, and I was using that game as my reference because you had the really bad Cop claim that derailed the thread for like 36 hours. | ||
Keirathi
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Keirathi
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1) The really bad "case" 40 minutes into the game. + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 05:57 Risen wrote: Let's start the day by analyzing this post. We can see he offers the olive branch, while at the same time attempting to fake a punch with his threat of cases later. His question is meant to give thread presence, while simultaneously doing jack shit. He's going to be gone for a while, let's make it a permanent leave of absence. ##vote: prplhz I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for that, since virtually every game has someone make a similarly terrible case, but on top of his recent postings, I can certainly see him being scum and sticking his neck out early. 2) Giving his scum read an out: On September 06 2012 06:19 Risen wrote: You then say you'll come back and tell us who's scum. You sound really confident you know who scum is. You scum breh? On September 06 2012 07:09 Risen wrote: For reference, Kenpachi rule = whoever attacks the VT claim first is scum. I don't think it's particularly alignment telling either, but it is scummy in my opinion. Combine that with his OMGUS argument and we have our first scum team member. (I'm like 65% sure prplhz is scum) On September 06 2012 07:10 Risen wrote: You know very well my first post was meant to start discussion and point out some mildly scummy things prpl had said in his post. Then he comes back with an extreme overreaction in the form of OMGUS? Scum. But then: On September 06 2012 07:12 Risen wrote: There is no defense for you at this point if you keep digging yourself a hole. It's early in the day, relax and just scumhunt as the day goes on. So, you seem pretty confident that prplhz is scum before this post (and even a bit after it). So why are you telling him what he needs to do to look townie? If you're really trying to catch a scum, you should be tightening the noose, not giving him a way to slip out of it. Plus, where is your scumhunting as the day goes on? And this: On September 07 2012 00:54 Risen wrote: *snip* From Zephirdd's post "Why do you think prplhz is scum? Tell us chronologically." I never actually thought he was scum, he was just the scummiest guy in a thread of like 3 posters so he got the ball rolling. His reaction has not sat very well with me, but I really don't like your first sentence in that other post about me being town or at least playing to town meta or something. It just feels really superfluous to the point you were trying to make. That doesn't sound like what you were trying to say earlier. 3) Misrepresentation of facts/WIFOM/etc On September 07 2012 01:04 Risen wrote: Hmm, I can't tell if Marvel is actually an upset towny (though why would he be, from an outsiders perspective look at all the juicy posting that has occured!) or (A)scum trying to make the appearance of bussing me. (B)I think I've only ever played with him as "scum", and he's always posted a lot less. (3)He knows this, though, and he's a smart cookie. Is he posting more now BECAUSE he knows I'm in this game and since he's scum he can' tplay like he did, or is it b/c he's genuinely town? Verdict: WIFOM as fuck. At least with this much posting if he is scum it won't come down to something retarded like in Death Note (ITSMARVELBABYYY YEAHHHHH) A) Bussing you? I don't really understand this part at all. B) Like I pointed out, Risen played with marv as both townies in I Can't Believe Its Not Themed mini 2 months ago. I was in the game too, and ribbed him about it in the pre-game and he replied, so I assumed he remembered. Now he says he doesn't remember the game at all and was just rolling with the punches. So is his memory really just that bad, or is he intentionally saying he doesn't remember because he got caught in a lie? Normally I would give BotD for that, since not everyone will remember every game they've ever played, but it seems really suspect in light of the other evidence. C) All the rest is just major WIFOM. In fact, I'm not even sure what the point of those last two sentences are? Like, he's not using them to condemn marv, nor is he clearing him? He's just using WIFOM as fuck arguments to say "I'm watching you." Why not just say that you're watching him? Conclusion: Too many little things that on their own could be scummy or could just be a bad townie, but combine them all together and it fits the bill of a scum. ##Vote: Risen | ||
Keirathi
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On September 07 2012 02:06 marvellosity wrote: you're thinking it's a scumslip saying bussing instead of wagoning? I certainly had that thought. But in context it doesn't really make sense. You (marv) are trying to appear like you are bussing him (Risen)? Huh? | ||
Keirathi
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On September 07 2012 02:14 Risen wrote: I was speaking from marv's perspective. As scum, the terms is bussing, therefor marv bussing Risen. That isn't hard to understand, and only a scum trying to play stupid would even raise that thought. But you would have to be scum with marv for him to "bus" you. If he's scum and you're town, he could be starting a wagon on you. However, bus and wagon are the same thing from town's PoV. They're only discernible to scum. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 07 2012 02:49 Risen wrote: Keirathi your case is pretty bad man. I wish I had the patience to do the segmented response thing, but I'll just be responding to your points raised. 1) Keirathi should know discussion is the most important thing to get started on. Most games it comes in the form of setup discussion or a bad case. What other kind of case is there so early on in the day? You find something particularly disturbing in someone's initial post, and then you pressure them on it. Their response to said pressure, and the thread's response can be especially telling. You're right. Discussion is the more important thing early in day 1. Which is why I gave you the BotD early, and questioned prplhz instead of you. And yes, I know that their response to the "pressure" can be telling. I said that exact same thing yesterday. On September 06 2012 07:35 Keirathi wrote: *snip* People make bad "cases" all the time, especially early in day1. The victim's reactions to them are just as telling as the bad case. *snip* Your early case didn't necessarily make you scummy, but its just more icing on the cake to the rest of your posts. On September 07 2012 02:49 Risen wrote: Like calling someone out for getting discussion started. Then making inane points about how they're giving their "scum read" ways out. 2) I'm giving a potential towny a way to come back. Guess what all scum have as a weakness, and inability to truly hunt scum, because they're just outing their teammates at that point. What does this force scum to do? Kind of like trying to force my lack of pressure on someone, who could just as easily be town as scum, as a sign of being scum. Lack of pressuring someone isn't a sign of being scum, it's a smokescreen used to give the appearance of scumhunting. So why would you, as a "townie", want to put up a smokescreen to appear like you are scumhunting without actually scumhunting. Thats what scum want to do, not townies. On September 07 2012 02:49 Risen wrote: 3)Not remembering a game I played with Marv where we were on different teams (note the I think in what you're calling me out on) is not a scumtell, nor is it misrepresentation of fact. I already answered where marv could potentially be bussing me, and trying to paint the use of bus instead of wagon as a scumtell is a sign of someone trying to push something that just isn't there. The game I pointed out, you were on the same team, both as townie. Which was contradictory to the point you made. You used an "I think..." argument which was blatantly wrong to strengthen your WIFOM bullshit about you being wary of marv. As far as you using the term bus, I didn't actually call you out on that. I asked for an explanation because it made no sense. Like I said to marv, it crossed my mind that it could have been a scumslip, but in context it didn't make sense as a scumslip. In context, and after your recent response, it sounds like you are genuinely misusing the word, which isn't alignment, indicative in any way. FYI: It means mafia throwing their teamates "under the bus" to gain towncred. It has nothing to do with mafia making cases on townies. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 07 2012 03:19 Risen wrote: Where is my smokescreen? Is my first case bad? Probably. It certainly isn't the only grounds that should be used to lynch someone, but I do feel like calling someone out for scummy behavior is perfectly acceptable, and a vote can be used to add pressure and get a response. I was just using your own wording. On September 07 2012 02:49 Risen wrote: Kind of like trying to force my lack of pressure on someone, who could just as easily be town as scum, as a sign of being scum. Lack of pressuring someone isn't a sign of being scum, it's a smokescreen used to give the appearance of scumhunting. You admitted to a lack of pressure on someone who could just as easily be down or scum. Then say that lack of pressure is a smokescreen to give the appearance of scumhunting. | ||
Keirathi
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There's no townie motivation for that. Period. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 07 2012 00:54 Risen wrote: *snip* From Zephirdd's post "Why do you think prplhz is scum? Tell us chronologically." I never actually thought he was scum, he was just the scummiest guy in a thread of like 3 posters so he got the ball rolling. His reaction has not sat very well with me, but I really don't like your first sentence in that other post about me being town or at least playing to town meta or something. It just feels really superfluous to the point you were trying to make. Now you're just blatantly lying. "I NEVER ACTUALLY THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM". But you said he was scum like 6 times before you said that quote. Can any townie possibly be this dumb? I mean, I know you have your pants-on-head retarded moments (Hint: your cop claim in Not Themed), but THIS dumb? | ||
Keirathi
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On September 07 2012 04:13 Risen wrote: TOWN DIRK AND KEIR WOULD NOT CONTINUOUSLY MISQUOTE ME! The whole line. "I never actually thought he was scum, he was just the scummiest guy in a thread of like 3 posters so he got the ball rolling." I think it's pretty clear that by saying, "When I made my first post prpl was the scummiest guy in thread. I didn't actually think he was scum, but as he sounded scummiest it seemed best to choose him as the target of my pressure." I could maybe buy that explanation if I took all of your posts out of context, but in the context of the thread and what was going on, it doesn't make sense. Zephirdd asked you why you thought prplhz was scum, not why you voted for prplhz right off the bat. If he said "Risen, explain to me why you voted for prplhz 40 minutes into day 1", then you saying "Oh, I didn't really think he was scum, I was just trying to get the ball rolling and his post was the scummiest so far" is perfectly understandable. But he asked you why you thought prplhz was scum, which you had been saying repeatedly, even after you told him to calm down and scumhunt. And hell, you even had some decent reasons to think he was scum. So your answer to his question just doesnt fit with what he was asking, nor with what you had been saying for the previous 18 hours or whatever. | ||
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Which part? | ||
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On September 07 2012 05:24 prplhz wrote: Risen wasn't getting lynched at that point and Keirathi was to get something else going and he was looking dodgy too, I already expressed my suspicions of him in the thread. I read some of his other games then and this appears to be how he's playing all the time so not as worried anymore. Where did you call me suspicious? You argued with me about me calling your vote on Risen an OMGUS vote, and said something about me having a strong opinion on you based on that conversation. But I don't see where you ever actually said you had any suspicion towards me. You just hopped on the bandwagon after marv made his case, and with basically no reasoning. You're blatantly misrepresenting facts, just like Risen is. But fuck me, I don't see both of you being scum. That would be quite a ballsy play to hop on each other very first thing. | ||
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Vader has a vote on Risen but has disappeared, BL has a scummy feeling from Zeph and disappeared, Zeph has a vote on prplhz and disappeared. | ||
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On September 07 2012 05:32 marvellosity wrote: I will tell you why your post was not formed in the manner of the most intelligent, prplhz, my good sir. Scum marvellosity sees something dodgy that Risen has written, and aggressively pursues scum Risen for it. He won't let it go and in fact makes scum Risen look worse and worse with each passing post. Having made scum Risen look awful to the thread, to the point where everyone is piling on to him, scum marvellosity decides to remove any credit he might have for the flip by unvoting him without much reason. Therefore scum marvellosity's masterplan is to get scum Risen lynched completely unnecessarily and give himself no credit for it. scum marvellosity is a fucking genius. Something about this post bugs me. You're right, it doesn't make sense from the perspective of scum marv bussing scum Risen. What about scum marv and townie Risen, though? You're acknowledging that your posts are (at least partly), responsible for the Risen wagon that is forming. But you unvoted and distanced yourself from it. Hmm... | ||
Keirathi
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On September 07 2012 06:09 Risen wrote: It's like you're me in the past, but in the future. Is there a reason you're mimicking everything I say? Honestly, I didn't see your post until you asked me this. The last post I saw on the other page was the one about sarcasm, and then i started typing up my post about prplhz. When it started a new page, I didn't realize there was an extra post to go back and look at. | ||
Keirathi
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prplhz: I dislike a lot of his posts so far, but I do agree with marv that he has seemed a bit more interested and invested in this game than dwarfs, at least up until this point. I don't rule him out yet. vader7: Null for now. Nothing he has done strikes me as particularly scummy, except his relative lurking, but not super townie either. Zeph: Dirk's list of things basically hit the nail on the head. Add in his wording earlier "Risen is not scum, or at least he doesn't look scum based on meta." That feels...weird? Like, as a townie without extra information, wouldn't a more appropriate phrase be "Risen isn't playing like his scum meta" or something? Leaning scum, but I'm not sure if I think he's more scummy than Risen. I'll think on it more while I'm gone. | ||
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On September 08 2012 01:23 Risen wrote: I don't think there's a possibility of a Dirk/Keir scum team at this point in time, so I'm going to Why not? You were thinking yesterday that it was a possibility. What made you change your mind? | ||
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On September 08 2012 01:38 Risen wrote: Zeph: Dirk's list of things basically hit the nail on the head. Add in his wording earlier "Risen is not scum, or at least he doesn't look scum based on meta." That feels...weird? Like, as a townie without extra information, wouldn't a more appropriate phrase be "Risen isn't playing like his scum meta" or something? Leaning scum, but I'm not sure if I think he's more scummy than Risen. I'll think on it more while I'm gone. Hey look, there you go mimicking me again. Why do you think I'm scum? Seems to me you share my thoughts on a lot of things. Makes it weird that you're voting for me. It seems like I'm valuable to you so you can come in and claim thread presence later, when really all you do is echo what I and others have said in the past.[/QUOTE] Yes, you pointed it out first. But you havent mentioned it again since people started talking about Zeph, and I felt it was pertinent for my feelings towards him. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 08 2012 01:38 Risen wrote: Hey look, there you go mimicking me again. Why do you think I'm scum? Seems to me you share my thoughts on a lot of things. Makes it weird that you're voting for me. It seems like I'm valuable to you so you can come in and claim thread presence later, when really all you do is echo what I and others have said in the past. Yes, you pointed it out first. But you havent mentioned it again since people started talking about Zeph, and I felt it was pertinent for my feelings towards him.[/QUOTE] EBWOP Formatting. | ||
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On September 08 2012 01:53 Risen wrote: Since other people who I care about will probably think this is important or something... I thought I had already made my stance on this issue clear in the thread, but apparently I have to reply specifically to this post. You're not me. You don't know how I think. I was giving an explanation for my first post in that line. That's it. There is no outside context. If I was responding to a direct question of whether I thought prpl was town or scum and said, "I never actually thought he was scum." THEN you could freak out like you and Dirk have over this insignificant line. As it stands, when taken in context, I said I didn't think he was scum, I picked him b/c his post was the scummiest thing in thread thus far. His response to that initial pressure was scummy as shit, just like Dirk's response is scummy as shit and doesn't actually answer why he was leaving himself an opening to get off me and onto you should you become the next wagon. That's all well and good, but thats NOT WHAT ZEPH ASKED. You didn't answer his question when you quoted it, you answered a completely different question that had an easy answer rather than the real question that would actually get you to explain your reasoning and the way you were thinking. | ||
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On September 08 2012 02:40 marvellosity wrote: Meh, ok thanks Yea I noticed it too, so I had to check. The timeline worked out. | ||
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On September 08 2012 06:00 Risen wrote: 1) He backed off prpl. I've shown I never backed off prpl, but this continues to be a cry from too many people to have it just be scum shouting it. Hence, horrible town. But you did back off prpl. Even if I give you the BotD that you were answering "Why did I vote prplhz 3 posts into the game" instead of "Why do you think prplhz is scum", you still maintained for a lot of the day that prplhz was scum. I can quote all the times you mentioned your scum read on him again, if you want. I'm not even talking about your first post, just the ones after it. But a few hours ago, you said something along of the lines of "I don't think prplhz is scum, I think he's a bad townie. Forget him and lynch Dirk/Zeph/etc". Also, I do have a question for you: What part of your meta, specifically, are you trying to change? I was under the impression that you were just trying to work on your attitude, because thats what you said you were working on in Not Themed. Your attitude has nothing to do with the meta argument that marv made against you, so your questioning of him because he made a meta argument about your townie playstyle, NOT your "FUCK YOU YOU'RE DUMB" attitude meta, doesn't make much sense to me. | ||
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Then there's things like this (emphasis is my own, and spoilered cause long quotes): + Show Spoiler + On September 08 2012 02:06 Risen wrote: You're probably right. I'm just telling you what I was responding to. Whether or not I actually responded to that specific question is irrelevant. It's probably scummy, and I'll discuss it post-game. The problem I find I have is I sit down and just type whatever comes to mind without filtering it. This leads to contradictions that shouldn't happen, and me answering things that weren't asked in the first place. If I wasn't me I'd think it was scummy, but I'd also look at all the other things I've done in thread and realize that scum wouldn't push cases so hard or with so much logic. I think my cases are very logical, something you can't say about scum cases. Now, the case being pushed on me is somewhat logical, because I've made mistakes, but it is incomplete because it doesn't look at the great good I've done in thread, instead focusing on the small blunders. This is what scum do, eventually townies make small mistakes, some more than others because some are worse, scum finds these small mistakes and exploits them. It is a townies duty not to panic and instead to continue making logical cases, that way even if I'm lynched, there are now concrete town cases in thread. That's what bugs me about prpl and anyone else in this game. Prpl responded by shitting himself openly in thread. He didn't do anything logical, he's not helping town should he be lynched. Town should play as if they're always about to take a bullet or be lynched. I don't see that from Dirk, prpl, or v7. On September 08 2012 04:31 Risen wrote: You're probably right. I was expecting people to go through and ask questions about my play. I'd respond by saying what I was thinking at the time. By doing this people would actually read the thread and realize I'm town b/c I can respond to any "contradiction" posted in this thread, and have, to show that there are no contradictions. People still harp on it, though, b/c they're too lazy to actually read the thread. That's why v7's claim of having read through the entire thread rings really, REALLY hollow to me. I doubt he did, or if he did he skimmed it. So either lazy town or scum claiming lazy town. Post-game discussion from me will revolve around how atrocious town is, and how awesome scum is for relying on a lazy town (or rather, how sad it is that a scum team can rely on town to be lazy) As for favorite ice cream? Tie. Mint chocolate chip or cookie dough for sure. Damn that sounds tasty. In case you didn't get it from that, I'm town. We'll see what excuses derp townies come up with to excuse how bad they are. You say that you are aware that you are making contradictions because you're posting on the fly off the top of your head, then say you have no contradictions. You've flip-flopped on your reads every 30 minutes, without really PUSHING the cases. Hell, your vote isn't even on marv right now. Too many little things all add up to you being scum. | ||
Keirathi
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On September 08 2012 09:27 marvellosity wrote: so, no-one around at all? I am back. | ||
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I'll be honest, I kind of feel bad about Risen now, but damn he was playing scummily. Initial thoughts post-flip: something feels off about you. But I say that every game. You're so goddamn hard to read. Your only real case was the one against me for saying "I think" a bunch, when you've read my games and talked with me more than anyone else here. And you dropped it extremely easily, then even said "Good post Kei" to something I said at the end of the day. However, some of your posts feel distinctly townie, like saying you still take responsibility for the Risen lynch even after you were off the wagon. I'm still looking at Zeph and prplhz as my top two scum reads right now. Maybe throw vader in there too. I'll be taking a good hard look through their filters before the day post and getting some solid information out. What about you? | ||
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On September 08 2012 19:04 Dirkzor wrote: Keirathi why do you feel bad about the Risen lynch? He was the most scummy in the game and we lynched his ass. Only scum feel they need to apologize for there choice of lynch to not seem detached. Yes he was town and that sucks but the lynch was good. I'll be re-reading my notes (and updating them) and re-reading day 1 tomorrow. Gut feeling have me pointing fingers at zeph and vader7. Nothing substantial yet though... Yea, you're right. If we replayed day 1 over again 100 times, I would probably make the same vote in 95+ of them. I just hate lynching townies (even bad ones), especially when they are the most active person in the thread. | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:35 Keirathi wrote: Yea, you're right. If we replayed day 1 over again 100 times, I would probably make the same vote in 95+ of them. I just hate lynching townies (even bad ones), especially when they are the most active person in the thread. EBWOP: What happened to your gut feeling about me being scum? You mentioned that you thought I had done scummy things, and replied to Ange saying that it was my wishy-washiness early game, into suddenly having a hard opinion, and that it was a gut feeling, but not enough to vote me over Risen. But now you have gut feelings about 2 new people, I'm not listed anymore. So why did you change your opinion? You didn't ever actually give any reasons, and only mentioned me those 2 times. | ||
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You said that you had a null read on V7 twice. On September 06 2012 22:52 Bluelightz wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 20:02 Dirkzor wrote: Both points can be scum traits aswell as town traits. I still see his VT claim as stupid and unnecesary. Could you explain why those could be scum traits? Comparison of Zeph/V7's vote's: On September 06 2012 06:43 Zephirdd wrote: Risen is not scum, or at least he doesn't look scum based on meta. I could tell you why, but it's information about an ongoing game. Suffice to say he flipped scum there and he looked very differently from these initial three posts. On the other hand, a rule that seems to work a lot is Kenpachi Rule extended: everytime someone cares about some bullshit from the first post of a player, he's scum. This applies for both prplhz and Risen here, but only one of them is an OMGUS. That was quick huh ##vote prplhz Point no.1 Saying that by meta he IS town (which I believe he is, but for other reasons), but doesn't explain HOW is it different (even though it's an ongoing game, I think zeph could've give at least a small detail. Point no.2 Times how that rule has worked, is irrelevant (I don't think that a rule that worked alot might ALWAYS work). Point no.3 Vote's prplhz off an OMGUS (doesn't explain why it's scummy) ******************************** On September 06 2012 12:09 vaderseven wrote: First off, I agree with prplhz that his vote on Risen is NOT an omgus. I also agree with his general read on Risen and would like to add to it. This post bothers me alot. Your first post is to declare, with a big bold picture and green text, that you are Green and that we should trust you. You go on to say some feel good stuff about how we will win cuz we are awesomesauce or something. What prplhz wrote there is fairly standard first post kinda stuff. He is asking people to post so that he can scum hunt... so that makes him scum?? I see no merit to that thought. I really just don't like your play at all this game Risen. I am feeling fairly sure, for a day 1, that you are either not thinking AT ALL before you post (and I think I recall playing with you before and not thinking that) or you are scum and just not doing a 100% job of hiding it. Of the two possibles there, I find it a fair chance for it to be that you are aggressive scum that is hiding it poorly. ##vote Risen He explain's why he think's prplhz is town, and explains why Risen's post's are scummy. Who I think MIGHT be scum from this is, Zephirdd, but the balance might be shifted by the point's of that V7's post seems more careful (explain's everything) while Zeph's is less careful (quick look at the post into he's SCUM). Conclusion: Zephirdd slightly leaning scum because if his response Vaderseven - Null, will read more into his filter later (mostly thinking about the careful/reckless response to the Risen/prplhz voting) Then again: On September 07 2012 21:56 Bluelightz wrote: + Show Spoiler + My promise from yesterday: Keirathi: I think he's town, he's been tunneling Risen, but is persistent to his read (which I think is townie because he doesn't take the easy way of voting and makes a case and defends it), he also defends himself when accused by marv. I have an odd feeling on marv, meta check! Scum marv (NMMII) This game's marv Do you guys see a similarity?I think I do, when I look at his post's, they are: one-liners!, some useless, some pointing out x,y or z. Particularly, his post's don't have much content (or do they :O?), his stances, are understandable, but we don't know why: On September 07 2012 21:18 marvellosity wrote: i'm not a fan of lynching prplhz today See the stance? yes, see why? no. (Marv could you explain please?) marvellosity: Odd feeling he might be scum, filter's look the same, but i'd see if he dies N1 or not (Sorry marv, it's normal nao ) My final stance on v7/Zeph: Zeph: Townie v7: Still null. Why? v7: He believes Risen IS scum, he has posted mostly (all) about him, but he has not posted about anything else. Zeph: How he was very open, how he provided information willingly as soon as Death Note ended, I consider townie. However, Your very next post (with no post from vader in between): On September 08 2012 01:04 Bluelightz wrote: I'm gonna vote v7, because he's the most scummy candidate I have for now (Between Zeph/Risen who I believe both or townie, or my slight marv read that hinges on who get's killed day 2), and that, he hasn't talked about anything else BUT Risen. ##Vote: vaderseven (Also, I sadly can't be there for the deadline, unless I wake up early.) How did he go from null two different times, to your scummiest read with no interaction from him? | ||
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On September 09 2012 03:27 Ange777 wrote: @Keir: What do you think of Zeph? I've said a few times that he was in my top 3 scum reads. I agree with you that his only real case was on Risen, and it just repeated points that were already made multiple times in the thread. Easy way to look like he's participating. The key, I think, is what he said before that case on Risen. He was pretty certain that Risen wasn't scum. On September 06 2012 06:43 Zephirdd wrote: Risen is not scum, or at least he doesn't look scum based on meta. I could tell you why, but it's information about an ongoing game. Suffice to say he flipped scum there and he looked very differently from these initial three posts. On the other hand, a rule that seems to work a lot is Kenpachi Rule extended: everytime someone cares about some bullshit from the first post of a player, he's scum. This applies for both prplhz and Risen here, but only one of them is an OMGUS. That was quick huh ##vote prplhz On September 06 2012 23:51 Zephirdd wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 21:33 Ange777 wrote: EBWOP: I don't know about Zeph. Has there been any real success with the (extended) Kenpachi rule? Anyway, Zeph's reasoning sounds more reasonable to me than V7's. I see Risen's first post as a common seen fluffy first post and therefore don't understand V7's vote. Yes. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=12#232 I don't think there is much more difference from my vote to Risen's vote on this game. I didn't even talk to my teammates before posting that, and JingleHell's first post is complaining about me. I go into QT and say "wtf jingle that was a bait for other townies" his answer is "I want to follow my meta, I'm very aggressive as town" There is also this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625¤tpage=5#84 Fact is that it's a completely null post that makes scum think it's a good way to start a case or simply a way to blend in. It is a scum bait. I call it "extended" because it is no different from the VT-claim Kenpachi Rule that so well works on other games, like NMM2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349058¤tpage=7#130 (Bluelightz was scum) On Bluelightz' case, 1. Now that game is over, I'll go for it. Risen does not claim stupid null shit. That's it. At least he looks different from both games(this and DN mini); I can't say he's getting better over time though. 2. The number of times a rule has worked is relevant. Mafia is a game of chances and nothing is 100%(except the setup). 3. It's scummy because it's a O-M-G-U-S what the hell. Not because he is voting whoever voted him, it's because he is voting for the reasoning "you can't be serious about this". Kinda outlined it on the following posts nicely. On another note, I have a question to Risen Why do you think prplhz is scum? Tell us chronologically. Sounds like he had pretty strong reasons for believing that Risen was town, but when the train got rolling on Risen he was happy to jump aboard with other people's arguments. Also notice that past his initial vote on prplhz (and the two subsequent posts explaining his Kenpachi Rule Extended), he hasn't really mentioned him again. In fact, he believes BL is scum now, who hadnt even mentioned at all as having any scummy feelings towards during the day. But suddenly he's super sure. | ||
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Zephirdd - My case is just a few posts up, so just going to link it: Zeph Case prplhz 1) OMGUS vote against Risen. He tried to say it wasn't an OMGUS vote, but his wording was literally "I can't believe that Risen can be serious." Why does a townie need to get that defensive over a fluff case at the start of the game? Yes, the case was terrible, but prplhz's response to it was equally terrible. 2) Unvotes Risen to sheep marv onto the case against me, without any explanation. Then, when marv hops onto Risen, prplhz sheeps him again and re-votes Risen. 3) Never really pushes anyone until the lynch outcome was basically already decided. His case on Risen was so late that, while it added some new points, it doesn't really feel like scumhunting, and more like trying to make sure he had some quality scumhunting in his filter. I will say this though, having played with scum prplhz in Dwarf Fortress, he is definitely more active and involved here. Hell, he never even had a single case in DF, was almost modkilled, and only showed up at the end of the day to defend himself from lurker accusations. That's really the only experience I have with him though, so I'll ask other people who have played with him more: is prplhz's scum meta ALWAYS disinterested and lurky? vaderseven 1) In his first post, he soft-defends prplhz, and then voted Risen because of Risen's initial post with some shaky reasoning (that his green Fruitdealer flavor text felt scummy, and that he's not doing a good job of hiding his scumminess? I don't even really know what that means) 2) Again maintains that the green flavor text was scummy. Of all the things that Risen did that were scummy, this is maybe the least alignment telling thing in his entire filter. What made it so scummy? 3) I know someone already pointed this out already, but I can't remember who it was: vaderseven wrote: I was going to list out a huge number of sub points but I think its better left at this: you are squirming like scum trying to be very active. Your goal is to use a large amount of direct response to defend yourself. Why was it better left at that? He isn't making his thoughts and intentions clear. Maybe just lazy/disinterested, but certainly not transparent. All of which are scum traits. Add on that he's lurking pretty hard, and my day 1 impression is noob scum trying to fly by under the radar. | ||
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I was roleblocked. | ||
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On September 09 2012 09:49 vaderseven wrote: That narrows down the setup types possible OR you are lieing in order to make us think that. Not saying you are a liar btw. So which is it? Do you think I'm lying or not? Anyways, yes. This narrows the setup possibilities down. We either have 1 cop and 1 doc, or 2 BoxeR's. Whoever the blues are know the exact setup now. | ||
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This is starting to feel like dwarf fortress all over again. | ||
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On September 09 2012 19:24 Bluelightz wrote: Your logic: I should've voted Risen. My logic: Voted vaderseven because zeph/risen I thought was town. Err, what? I didn't ask you why you didn't vote Risen. I asked you how your null read suddenly turned into your strongest scum read. Do you literally have a town read on every single person in the game, so the best you could do was vote a null read? | ||
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On September 10 2012 00:04 Bluelightz wrote: During d1, the best you could vote was following the Risen bandwagon train? I voted v7 because if we swinged votes it would be more likely(easier) to gather support to lynch v7 as some people have already voiced their willingness / say's that the lynch target is between Risen / zeph / v7. Zeph lynch thoughts: Will I vote zeph? No. Why wouldn't I? because he has proven his innocence (to me), by being willing to share information with town, even if he picked an easy target (meh) to pick on, by doing that he is actively trying to find scum (he thinks i'm scum) and not wasting time doing other stuff. Yes, the best I could do was vote Risen. I made a case, gave plenty of reasoning, and argued with Risen about it for hours. I voted for my scum read. So you voted for your null read. I can kind of understand your reasoning, BUT: who was your scum read? You never actually pushed one at all. The only person you ever even mentioned that you thought was scummy was Zeph, and you changed that to a townie read based on one post. If there were 3 lynch candidates, but you had a town read of two of them and a null read on the third, wouldn't the appropriate play be to make a case on the person you thought was scum, with supporting evidence etc, and try to get people off of your town read? But instead, you took the easy way out and just put a throwaway vote with no real reasoning behind it onto v7. Sounds like you didn't particularly care if Risen died, even though he was a "Town read". | ||
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As far as defending Risen while you were sleeping: I made my case on Risen at September 07 2012 02:02 forum time. The day ended at September 08 2012 07:00. You were sleeping for 29 hours? No, of course not. You came in and made a couple posts in that period, but still DIDN'T PUSH A SCUM READ. You just threw your vote onto vader with the only justification that he talked only about Risen. Did you honestly expect people to unvote Risen and vote vader based on that? | ||
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Zeph, BL, vader, my question about prplhz? | ||
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On September 10 2012 05:35 marvellosity wrote: Oh, about the scum meta? Well, I provided two other mini games than Dwarf for people to look at, and I thought my opinion was pretty clear about it (partly why i want to know where he is now). Yea, your opinion was that he was more active and involved here than he was in those games. I was just curious if anyone had any reference point for an active/involved scum prplhz, or if he could be pulling the wool over our eyes. On September 10 2012 05:35 marvellosity wrote: My vote is on Zeph, what do you want to know? ----- Back to Zeph for a moment, he rolled scum in Mad Men, NMM2, and PTP3... from my perspective it makes sense that he's not able to give this game his all. I know when I've rolled scum a couple of times in succession it drains me. If he's town, I would have expected him to be eager to get stuck into playing town this game. Well, you had mentioned him a bunch, but almost all one liners without really much explanation. Hard to get a read on your motivation and thought process if all you say is "Yea im down with a zeph lynch". This explanation of his play does have some merit, so I'll go check out those games. On September 10 2012 05:35 marvellosity wrote: vader looks bad for reasons BL stated. The only reason BL ever gave was that vader did nothing but talk about Risen. Which, I admit, is certainly a scummy point. But scummy enough to put him into your top reads? On September 10 2012 05:35 marvellosity wrote: BL looks bad but that's BL for you. It's entirely unsurprising to me that he would not have a proper scumread to vote on day 1 - see my meta analysis of him in NMM3, i.e where he produced a spreadsheet of near-universal townreads when in line for the (mis)lynch I was leading on him at the time. I remember the spreadsheet comment and how you jumped off of him. But, I was reading that game with the knowledge of who the scum were already, so I was more interested in the ways you guys (well, you specifically, since I was talking with you), kept suspicion off of yourself, so I didn't actually pay that much attention to what the townies were doing. However, prplhz linked WoF, where as a townie, yes BL did have a lot of town reads. I feel like the difference is that he had scum reads too, and made cases against them. I'll go check his filter from NMM3 now, though. | ||
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On September 10 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: If there is a BoxeR, claim now. Keirathi's claim will be rendered true if there are two BoxeRs, or false if there is only one, and if it's false he is confirmed scum, otherwise he is most likely town. Which is immensely helpful when considering other players reactions. The logic doesn't really make sense. Even if there are two BoxeRs, if one of them thought I was scum, couldn't they just refuse to claim and therefor by your logic, I would be an instant-lynch? Also, I was RB'd, so the scum knows that its either setup A, or setup D. If a BoxeR claims today, then scum knows that its setup D, and that they don't have to worry about a cop or doc at all. And here you are, wanting a BoxeR to claim to confirm me as scum. Something about that doesn't sit right. | ||
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I'll give you that his lack of cases is disconcerting (which I already pointed out to him, but he didn't respond), and reading back through DFMM, I didn't realize just how much less information he has been forthcoming with in this game compared to that one (IE, he had large posts explaining his thought process/rationale/opinions on the major cases). Also, he dropped his case on me extremely easily (pressure vote?), and mildly buddied me. However, like I also mentioned, he does have a few posts that feel distinctly townie: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16154605 for one. As scum, why wouldn't he just let it ride that my post said I felt like he was distancing himself from the Risen wagon by unvoting? Also, his interactions with Risen feel different than his interactions with his "scum reads" in NMM3 and DN. Here, he was pretty "bulldog"-y. Like he was trying to keep Risen posting so that he could feel Risen out. In NMM3 and DN, he was using his arguments to convince everyone else, rather than starting a shouting match to convince himself. Conclusion: I'm always extremely paranoid of marv. He's certainly good enough as scum to be scary, and generally is more open and forthcoming about his reasoning as town. I'm not sure I have a firm grasp on how to read him though. I've spent a huge amount of time talking with him on IRC about strategy, past games, how he plays, how I play, etc etc. I feel like I have a decent idea of how he thinks, but the converse side of that is that he has a decent grasp on how I think as well, and is certainly smart enough to potentially use that to manipulate me if he was scum. Basically, I'm suspicious of him, but I don't think he is the best option for today's lynch. | ||
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Why would scum Zeph pick a fight with town marv? Seems like there would be much, much easier people he could push today, and just get rid of marv at night. So what motivation would he have to trying to get marv lynched? | ||
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And yes, I'll give you that he was blatantly wrong about Dirk. | ||
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On September 11 2012 00:39 Zephirdd wrote: HOLY FUCKING SHIT MARV ange was one of the most solid townies on the clusterfuck of day1, and i remember someone saying she is a good hunter as well. If the setup has a rb(which I nelieve it does, because I have no suspicion of keirathi) then scum would fear a medic and not shoot veterans like you and me. I, for one, would never believe a medic would protect you after this day 1 and would shoot you no problem. If someone was to be protected, it'd be keirathi from the top of my head. I can't imagine any scumteam that would be more scared of me than marv, so I don't know why medic protect would go on me over marv unless the medic had really good reason to believe that marv was scum. Granted, Risen's ranting about marv at the end of the day could have potentially made the medic wary of marv, but that's a longshot (and a mistake I personally made in DFMM, where I convinced myself marv was suspicious and protected sciberbia n1 instead of the obvious choice in marv). | ||
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On September 11 2012 01:09 marvellosity wrote: Further to this, it can clearly shown to be scum motivated. Why does he want BLUES TO CLAIM on his strongest townread? If one Boxer claims, and a scum counterclaims and another townie claims, where are we now? In a mess of confusion. Why does Zephirdd want this possible mess when Kei is his towniest read? Why does he need Kei confirmed BY OUTING BLUES? Yea, I completely agree. It just doesn't make any sense, and is totally scum motivated. That's why I questioned him about it when he first said it, and add on that I'm his towniest read? Yea, no deal. ##vote: Zephirdd | ||
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Those crumbs seem credible. I noticed how weird both of those quotes felt, but I'm terrible at noticing crumbs. | ||
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1) Tunnels Risen for all of day 1. In fact, besides quoting 2 posts from me, he hasn't mentioned a SINGLE person in this game outside of Risen. Literally no one. 2) Promise to be around today and answer questions that he hasn't delivered on, while we were all fighting amongst ourselves. 3) No reads at all. Like, how was there nothing at all to get from day 1? 4) Overall lurkiness all game. | ||
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Also, I feel like some of his points for his "read" on Risen were really weak and stretching (particularly the whole "OMG he used bold green letters!", when there were so many more plausible things to vote him for). | ||
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On September 11 2012 01:52 marvellosity wrote: Keirathi, what do you make of BL completely avoiding the main arguments of today? I'm of two thoughts: First, it makes sense for him not to get into the argument about Zeph. He already stated multiple times that he had a town read on Zeph, and wasn't going to vote him today. So, in that context, his case on v7 makes sense as part of trying to stop the Zeph train. However, he stated he was suspicious of you day 1 and mildly stated he was still paranoid about you today, but his counterwagon to the Zeph case was on v7 instead of adding more information to his townread's case against you. Doesn't make much sense. | ||
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BL does have some contradictory points, but vader just straight up said he was going to be around and answering questions today but hasn't. And he said he has absolutely nothing in the way of reads, and that all of the cases today felt bad to him. Completely disinterested, lurky, backed down on his promise: Vote: vaderseven | ||
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On September 11 2012 06:08 Dirkzor wrote: Since no one wants to play or care about this I'm going to bed. My life is to short to sit here and f5 when nothing happens... Sorry, I was out working in the yard. Just came in to take a break because its like 100 degrees outside. Anyways, yea, I'm pretty content with the vader lynch, for the reasons I already stated. I'm a little worried that he could just be legit-busy townie, but why promise to be here today and then not do it? He hasn't even tried to defend himself. I think its more likely that he's scum trying to just fly by under the radar. | ||
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Good fucking game. | ||
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Some things I noticed: Bluelightz and prplhz had basically no interactions with each other until n1, then suddenly prplhz has a fully fleshed out. Except, once the day starts, prplhz is MIA (and therefore isn't voting BL) for basically the whole day, and then hops onboard the v7 lynch at the end. Meanwhile, BL *still* hasn't given an opinion about prplhz. His only mention of him at all was to respond to prplhz's case. Early on in the Risen debacle, he gave Risen a public town read, but didn't mention anything about the prplhz. I'm pretty sure we have our scumteam here, but Dirkzor does complicate things. I basically have a completely null read on him. I know that he's been here and posting, but nothing he has said has ever really stood out or been memorable. Reading back over today, he flat-out defend BL earlier in the day, and then after the Zeph claim and we start meandering around: 1) i called out vader 2) Zeph called out BL 3) marv agrees with zeph that BL is scummy, and has a town read on vader 4) Zeph votes for BL 5) Dirk steps in with a big case on vader, and all the conversation about BL stops. @marv, Zeph: I still think prplhz is the scummiest person, and I'm not really sure why both of you have deemed BL to be scummier. BL does seem to have links to prplhz AND Dirk, so I guess I can kind of see your reasoning and if you wanted to lynch BL first i could consolidate there, but it feels "wrong" not to be voting my scummiest read. | ||
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On September 11 2012 17:29 prplhz wrote: Hey Keirathi why am I scum? You want to lynch me, but you also want to lynch the guy I have been pushing for days. I already made my case against you on n1. On top of that, all you did day2 was lurk, then show up at the very end and throw a weak vote on vader to avoid a mod-kill. And "pushing for days" is being extremely generous to yourself. You made a case halfway through n1, and your only "push" to get people to vote it d2 was "I don't like the Zeph case. Why is everyone ignoring BL". | ||
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On September 09 2012 06:48 Keirathi wrote: prplhz 1) OMGUS vote against Risen. He tried to say it wasn't an OMGUS vote, but his wording was literally "I can't believe that Risen can be serious." Why does a townie need to get that defensive over a fluff case at the start of the game? Yes, the case was terrible, but prplhz's response to it was equally terrible. 2) Unvotes Risen to sheep marv onto the case against me, without any explanation. Then, when marv hops onto Risen, prplhz sheeps him again and re-votes Risen. 3) Never really pushes anyone until the lynch outcome was basically already decided. His case on Risen was so late that, while it added some new points, it doesn't really feel like scumhunting, and more like trying to make sure he had some quality scumhunting in his filter. I will say this though, having played with scum prplhz in Dwarf Fortress, he is definitely more active and involved here. Hell, he never even had a single case in DF, was almost modkilled, and only showed up at the end of the day to defend himself from lurker accusations. That's really the only experience I have with him though, so I'll ask other people who have played with him more: is prplhz's scum meta ALWAYS disinterested and lurky? | ||
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Okay, so I'm like 90% sure that we've caught the scumteam in BL+prplhz. Laying out my points for them being a scumteam again: 1) BL's only read towards prplhz the entire game was On September 11 2012 22:38 Bluelightz wrote: Oh fuck, vaderseven. Why the fuck are you guys for pointing at me for lynching a medic that didn't BOTHER defend and claimed in the last 10 minutes? only because of an impending modkill. Looking over some other stuff, prplhz looks like a fine lynch target, but I guess I should be more careful when pushing people. ....which came last night. After people already started pointing fingers at a BL+prplhz scumteam. 2) Early on during the Risen fallout, BL gave Risen a town read while completely ignoring prplhz, despite the fact that he gave Risen a town read BECAUSE of the case on prplhz. Why wasn't he at least suspicious of the person his town read had a case on? Or not even be suspicious of prplhz, I just don't see how he could completely IGNORE it. 3) After all their ignoring each other day1, prplhz comes out with a fully fleshed out case during n1 against BL. Where did that read come from? Granted, a townie could do that too, but the kicker: after his case (the only real case prplhz has made all game that wasn't a throwaway case on the person who already had a majority vote and set to be lynched), the only time prplhz attempted to "push" the case was saying "All the cases on Zeph are bad, why is everyone ignoring my case on BL". That doesn't feel like someone trying to lynch BL, it feels like someone trying to SEEM like he wants to lynch BL. He literally never tried to get any traction going on the case at all, or added new information to it. They both just lurked the whole day away. However, like I said, I don't think a BL+Dirk team is impossible at this point. I honestly had basically a 100% null read on Dirkzor all game, because I feel like he's sort of floated by under the radar, being active but not impactful. At least until the Zeph claim yesterday. I already laid out the chain of events, but here it is once more for convenience (and easier to read, this time) 1) Zeph claims cop, and people realize he's telling the truth and start unvoting. Note that his vote was on Zeph, with his only reasoning being he was sheeping Ange's case from n1. 2) I asked people to go look back into vader again and consider him as a vote candidate now. 3) Zeph proposes a case on BL instead, and votes him 4) Marv agrees with the BL lynch and votes, and gives an "uninterested townie" read to vader 5) Dirk steps in with a large case on vader, and convinces everyone onto him instead because he has a town read on BL. Even after this, he still gives a town read to BL. Except, as soon as vader flips: On September 11 2012 17:39 Dirkzor wrote: I can get behind a BL lynch but I would much rather lynch prplhz. The reason for me to go against a BL lynch earlier was that it was to easy ot get him lynched. BL rarely post more then a few times a day and thus would not gives us anything to work with and i don't find him too scummy this game. Now at lylo that doesn't really work anymore since we need to get the mafiosos. I still think prplhz is the most scummy with BL/marv/kei coming behind (in that order). I didn't add zephirdd because he will most likely die. If he doesn't I'll think about then when it happens. He says he could get behind a BL lynch, but is still soft defending him and wanting to lynch prplhz first. So, while I do still think BL+prplhz is the scumteam, the chance of BL+Dirk is too high to ignore. I would rather have to make the decision between prplhz vs Dirk in 2-1 LYLO with a confirmed scum dead, than lose today because I was slightly wrong. Either way, in both cases, BL is scum. ##Vote: Bluelightz | ||
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Okay, I pm'd to vote for shorter day too. | ||
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On September 12 2012 21:19 Bluelightz wrote: I don't like Dirkzor, as well as Zeph, they're a scum team. Ive realised the connection between them (Hopefully). But, right now Zephirdd is more believable as scum, why? if Zeph was a Parity Cop, why in the bloody hell didn't scum kill him? He was only roleblocked (Although I would agree on marv being more useful). ##Vote: Zephirdd Random ramblings: We shouldn't,we're dead, D E A D dead if scum simply pulls a last minute vote switch on a random townie. If BL is town, why would the scum need to last minute vote switch away from him? The game would be over if he was lynched. So, he proposes an alternative vote to himself. Then if he can convince even one townie that he's not scum, his scum partner can jump in with a last minute switch and win the game himself. Yea, BL is scum. | ||
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On September 13 2012 04:06 prplhz wrote: no idea why you think i'm scum when i proposed bluelightz with a serious case before anybody else did Because you weren't actually trying to get him lynched. You posted your case, then basically ignored him and lurked all day. And here you are trying to buy town cred for your case on BL once he flips scum. Not buying it. | ||
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On September 14 2012 00:23 Bluelightz wrote: Not everyone voted at the time and your saying that I'm proposing people to vote me?! ME?! a fucking townie? The only person who hadn't voted at the time when you made that post was prplhz, who I still believe to be your scum partner. And I didn't say you were proposing people to vote for you. You proposed an alternative lynch to yourself, and if you could convince one townie that you weren't lying, then prplhz could hop in with the last second vote and you would win the game. And, you care about the game? You voted for the fucking confirmed cop. Unless you yourself are the cop, or you think that Zeph and I both lied about being roleblocked and you are BoxeR. There's literally no other possibility. | ||
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On September 14 2012 00:34 Bluelightz wrote: Convoluted logic on my mind, didn't read up on the claim..... I'm not BoxeR, one of you are. Oh, look, coincidence? Dirkzor and Keirathi being online together ? Exactly. Because you haven't cared about this game at all. And coincidence! You're still defending prplhz! Where did that read come from? You literally haven't mentioned him this whole game until you said "prplhz looks like a fine lynch target" during the night after people started calling you+prplhz out as a scumteam. Now you're saying that he's town, with some convoluted logic ("Because of his posting, it feels townie because no townie would be like that, EVEN THOUGH, that he didn't vote me while he thought me as his strongest scum read, I think that he's town"). You're just squirming because you realize you're caught and trying to muddy up the thread. | ||
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On September 14 2012 00:39 Bluelightz wrote: "We shouldn't,we're dead, D E A D dead if scum simply pulls a last minute vote switch on a random townie." Point out the alternate lynch on MYSELF, I said I thought Zeph n Dirk were scum at the time, I didn't propose a alternate lynch on myself no shit. I think you're misunderstanding me, or maybe blatantly trying to discredit me. When you made that post, there were 3 people voting for you (Zeph, Me, Dirkzor). You put your vote on Zeph, and made a "case". If you get even one townie to follow your vote onto Zeph, then prplhz swoops in at the last minute with a hammer and you win the game. Again, if you are a townie, then why would scum need to last minute switch off of you to win the game?. They wouldn't, because they would win the game by lynching you. | ||
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On September 14 2012 00:53 Bluelightz wrote: Don't you understand that the warning I said applies to townies? It doesn't apply to you scum. My point is, if Dirk and I are the scumteam, then we have no reason to pull a last minute vote switch because as long as Zeph is on our side, then we've already won. Literally the only need for scum to ever pull a last minute vote switch onto a random townie at that point would be if you were scum. Also "funny" how you only decided to start caring about the game when your neck was on the line. | ||
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On September 14 2012 01:09 Bluelightz wrote: I haven't fucking cared? I CARE ABOUT THIS GAME. Town might lose again, because of me, because of me Town loses, even TheToast once even laughed at me about the so called "Curse of the Bluelightz", this is a demonstration of something I fucking care about, killing scum. What have been I doing all game? trying to find scum. Care you show me where? You called vader null twice, then suddenly (and without any posts from him in between) changed him to a scum read. Which you kept pushing on d2. That's literally the only scum read you've given ALL GAME until now when its LYLO and your neck is on the line. | ||
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On September 14 2012 01:11 Bluelightz wrote: You know its impolite to answer a question with a question? answer my fucking question scum. Yeah like prplhz was worth talking about during the time I could post here, people started talking of "Oh let's lynch prplhz" in the what? final hours of Day 2, you know timezones right? How the fuck do I give opinions on prplhz when I'm sleeping in bed? when the deadline is when I wake up? Why do you think I post 12 hours after every deadline? Dirk hasn't done anything impactful in the entire game. I never thought he was scum, and no one ever even talked about him being scum, so there was no reason to talk about him. The difference is that prplhz HAS been a topic of discussion. Again, you didn't think it important to talk about prplhz during the Risen debacle? You gave Risen a town read because of his case against prplhz and the fallout from it, but didn't think prplhz worth mentioning? I don't understand how you as a townie could possibly have not cared about prplhz at all considering you had a town "read" on Risen. | ||
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On September 14 2012 01:15 Bluelightz wrote: Hey I read stuff! clearly I am not allowed to change my opinion after realizing something! Aaaaaand answer my bloody question scum. You didn't even give a reason for your change of "opinion". You used the exact same reasoning to justify vader as a null read AND as a scum read. He literally did nothing else in between, but suddenly you changed "only talked about Risen" from a null tell to a scum one. | ||
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On September 14 2012 01:20 Bluelightz wrote: Show me when the topic started..... "funny" how you gave an opinion on your buddy when your being presssured . Oh, and OBJECTION1!!! Clearly someone voting Dirkzor = no attention at all!!!! By the time I got back in the thread, that discussion was already over. Dirk said he was trying to bait reactions, but marv answered first, so Dirk pushed a case on Zeph. | ||
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On September 14 2012 01:23 Bluelightz wrote: I'll keep it short n sweet: I'm not gonna vote for my town reads (Hey! Zeph & Risen! kewl). Who should I vote?!!! Read about v7? Hey! I think he looks scummy! I shouldn't vote him because he didn't shit in between my post's! or that it was just too sudden of a change of mind! Here's some proof of why I'm townie, I ain't scared to post whatever. Voting the "confirmed" Parity Cop? Oh that Bluelightz (as a townie) for ya! crazy I know. So your justification on the vote for Zeph is that you are terrible? LOL | ||
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Here's my final opinion: Prior to today, you haven't cared about this game at all, nor done virtually any scumhunting. Suddenly your neck is on the line, and you're super active and wanting to argue, while pushing scumreads on me and Dirk while still defending prplhz. Nothing you have done this game has been pro-town, and voting for the confirmed cop is just stupidly anti-town. With Zeph as a confirmed townie, I have 3 people to pick a scumteam of two out of. You and prplhz make the most sense, so I'll be sticking with my vote. | ||
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Just making sure you know this, but nothing that BL said today should have any bearing on our (whichever of us is still alive) decision tomorrow. BL knew he was going to die, so everything he said is a super WIFOM bomb. | ||
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On September 14 2012 06:59 prplhz wrote: yea i'm not really sold on bluelightz being scum convenient. | ||
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On September 14 2012 05:58 Zephirdd wrote: lol keirathi, you must have nothing interesting to do if you wasted so much brain cells arguing like that I was just bored. Rather argue with him than keep lurking until the flip | ||
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F5F5F5F5F5F5F5F5 | ||
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This was my first scum game, and I had a lot of fun. Some post-game thoughts: 1) I don't think I did anything particularly amazing this game. I just focused on not making any obvious mistakes, and looking better than any potential lynch targets. 2) It was really dumb of me not to notice Zeph's crumb n1. I was talking with marv a bit about it after he died, and I think I realized why I didn't catch it. As weird as it sounds, I literally played this whole game with the mindset that I was town. I scoured filters, checked meta, did whatever I needed to do to make a case. I even caught myself a few times thinking "So, if so-and-so flips scum, I can link him to so-and-so." The good thing (for me), was that playing like that made my meta pretty similar to my town meta, IMO (which could be bad, in hindsight. I might start getting mislynched as town now!). The side effect to that town mentality, was that when I read Zeph's crumb post, I had the exact same reaction that Ange had: I marked it down as something scummy that I could use to pressure him. I spent more time reading posts from the context of "What's scummy about this?" than I did from the mindset of "Why would a townie say that?". I did specifically go back and look through all the night posts for a medic crumb, but Zeph's post still didn't stick out. Really bad of me, but thankfully it didn't come back to bite me in the ass. 3) Not RB'ing anyone n1 was extremely risky, and probably a bad decision 9 times out of 10. But I didn't have any blue reads, and I still thought of everyone alive as lynch bait and didn't want to give them even the smallest amount of town cred with a claim that they were RB'd. 4) RB claim might buy someone BotD for a day, but when it's LYLO you really need to go back and evaluate if they were lying about it. But by that point, I already had enough town cred and influence built up, that Zeph (and marv, FWIW) came to the conclusion that I wasn't lying. 5) Something I'm mildly suprised no one picked up on: I called Risen out day 1 for having 6 people (out of 8) as part of his "Lynch order list". Except, during N1, I made a case on 3 people (prplhz, Zeph, and vader), and had pressure posts against marv and BL, too. So, I had varying degrees of cases on 5 out of the 7 people who were alive besides me. 6) Risen: any copying of your opinions was honestly entirely unintentional 7) vader being medic was extremely unfortunate for you guys. Basically the whole setup revolved around the medic If vader hadn't been the medic, or marv (who I was still planning to shoot n2), me and prplhz would have been in a pickle. I was honestly worried we were going to lose the game up until vader claimed medic. Oh, and: On September 12 2012 06:31 Zephirdd wrote: Dirkzor, I too have. On this kind of setup, using a roleblock on a town player will not only confirm the setup for players but also make that player look good. However, Keirathi would deserve a mafia player of the century if his play so far was made from a scum perspective in my opinion. He's been constructive, he's been making ton of sense, and he's been showing a lot of stuff other town players don't realize. Hell, I'd argue I would have been roleblocked if he was scum, because he noticed my breadcumb really early. Besides, it's not hard to imagine that he would be a blue if you think of his day 1 play. I had a green read on him at least, and instantly thought he was telling the truth when claiming RB. That made me chuckle. Thanks <3 GG again, and look forward to playing with you guys more! | ||
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Blazinghand wrote: It seems certain that with just a bit of leadership from Marv or Ange777 this will turn into a landslide for town. | ||
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On September 14 2012 09:00 Zephirdd wrote: THE ZEPHIRDD RULE IS FUCKING TRUE Rofl | ||
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On September 14 2012 09:05 Zephirdd wrote: ugh I should have picked bluelightz was town, but for some reason keirathi didn't make sense to be scum. except that claiming to be roleblocked is like THE move for a scum team to make on this setup. I'm a moron lol Meh, you played fine. You only claimed when you had to, and had a credible crumb to back it up. Literally no one pegged me for scum. Not in the game, nor in Obs QT. (Well, BL was right at the end, but for terrible reasons. The only reason I was scum to him was an associative tell with a townie. Flip Dirk, and he had no case against me at all.) | ||
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On September 14 2012 10:48 Risen wrote: Don't even get me started on how everyone in this game has the reading comprehension of a 2 year old. Keir you're awesome man. Haha, wait. Are you saying that I have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old, or that I am awesome? Or maybe an awesome 2 year old!? | ||
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I don't think the RB itself confirmed me as town, but when you add in that I was being active and "useful", people just started believing that there was very little chance I was lying. Especially after Dirk? Zeph? said he wouldn't be suprised if it was an attempt to actually hit a blue after my day 1 play. Also, I would have made my case against you regardless of alignment (sorry!). As a town, that one post about the bussing and convoluted logic would have set my scum senses tingling. Like I said, I was reading each post with my townie mentality. The key difference is that as a townie, I would have realized you were town by the endof the day. Everything you said in the last 6 hours or so before the lynch just screamed townie, IMO. | ||
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The most likely explanation is that he's a super paranoid townie. E: Unless you were his teamate. Then it could have been a brilliant play | ||
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Oh, and your reaction fishing didn't work because I knew what reaction you were expecting. It might have worked if you hadn't made the same argument in Not Themed and Dwarfs, though | ||
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On September 11 2012 07:06 Keirathi wrote: Yea, I'm really liking the prplhz lynch now. I gave him the BotD because marv seemed convinced that he was too active and interested to be scum, and the other cases today had merit as well. How long before we stop giving his terrible play the BotD and hold him accountable for the scummy shit he's done? I don't think my chances of winning were any less after the medic was dead, and the cop was outed, in 2-1 LYLO compared to 3-2. But someone shot me down again, and proposed lynched BL instead, so I rolled with it. | ||
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On September 14 2012 11:43 Risen wrote: You would have won easily b/c you don't kill Zeph who you're near confirmed status with. Assuming that you kill Zeph, though, I think you still have a fair shot at getting BL lynched. No. No, no, no. There's absolutely no way I could leave Zeph alive, and kill Dirkzor. Zeph might have been mildly suprised that marv died instead of me on n2, but there's no way he believes scum kills Dirkzor over me on night 3. | ||
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But why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted. | ||
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That would have given Zeph a parity difference between me and BL in LYLO. Obviously, Zeph was 100% expected to either be blocked or killed. If neither happened, he would wonder why the scum let the check go through. | ||
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On September 14 2012 12:07 Zephirdd wrote: I actually checked prplhz night 2. No reason to not roleblock me though. I should have realized you were scum when you didn't die. marv wasn't confirmed at all, why the fuck would someone who is supposedly confirmed survive over him? That thought went through my head, and I washed it with "that's just scum trying to mess with me". If you tried to use that as an argument against me, I would have been able to shut it down I think. Who would the mafia rather fight against in a LYLO situation: a well respected scumhunter with generally strong town play and really good arguer, or me, a relative newbie? And also, I was in no way confirmed. People kept acting like I was, for some reason, but it was just a RB claim on night 1. That maybe could have bought me BotD for a day, but in LYLO it should have been treated as basically never happening. | ||
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On September 14 2012 12:13 Zephirdd wrote: I don't know how that would go, but as much as marv is a respected scum hunter, he is no where near the worth of a confirmed townie when the confirmed cop was paranoid of him earlier and he's known for also being pretty good as scum. soo yeah, I should've thought that through I think you would have a hard time finding any scum team in the last 2-3 months that would have wanted to leave marv alive any longer than was absolutely necessary He basically destroyed the scum team in Mad Men, lol. The only reason he didn't die night 1 was because I expected him to be protected, and I still think he would have been with almost anyone else as the medic. I know if I was town, I would have protected him. I made that mistake in dwarfs, not protecting him because I thought I had a read on him being scum. He might not have been the towniest person alive, but with a 78% chance of being town, its not worth the risk of losing him. There's a reason he dies on n1 or n2 in almost every game | ||
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On September 14 2012 12:31 Risen wrote: Zeph just nominated you for best scum player Keir. I'm pretty sure if it was you/him/X in the end he would have been lynching X. Fair enough. I'll change my play style then. I've always tried to operate under the assumption that posting a lot was pro-town. Get your thoughts out there for people to pick apart, and respond in a logical manner. I guess that's not how town operates on TL, so that's me needing to change and stop expecting TL town to change. There's literally no way he wouldn't have been suspicious of me in that situation, I think. Maybe I could have talked my way out of it, but why would I take that chance? Anyways, its all purely speculation, since prplhz wasn't lynched anyways, so its not important As far as the second part, I think its more that when you post so much without thinking through what you're saying, you're bound to slip up and say things that mafia can jump on. Posting a lot and being open with your reasoning isn't necessarily that strong of a town tell if what you say can be perceived as scummy. I mean, I didn't post as much as you day 1, but I still was pretty active comparatively. And that's about how active I am in all of my games, even as a townie. It's all about what you say and how you say it, not how many times you post. | ||
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Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!". Also, all your WIFOM arguments against marv felt really out of place. Like, what purpose did they serve? You basically just used a bunch of WIFOM about playing as scum together to justify a "I'm paranoid of marv" read. | ||
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On September 14 2012 12:59 Blazinghand wrote: I actually typically advise people I attack on how to appear townie as a town player. Basically, if it's reasonable advice (write cases, give reads, etc) it forces them to either follow it or explain why they're not if your attack is good. The reason you do this is twofold: 1) no matter how sure you are you always want to give targets a chance to prove themselves townie and 2) it either forces scum to come out and engage you by taking certain actions, or for them to ignore your advice and look bad for it. Telling people what they can do to be more townie is actually a good way to push town in the right direction and make scum uncomfortable playing an anti-town game. The main reason the Risen lynch happened is that there was no clear counter-wagon. I understand your point. But look at marv's pressure vote against me on day1 for saying "I think" etc a bunch. He told me exactly what I needed to do to buy some free BotD. Had he not said that, I probably would have continued, and maybe there would have been something to make an actual case against at some point because he would have been scrutinizing me harder. Granted, that situation is a little different because I always post really iwshy-washy on day1 and get firmer as the game goes on, but the point still stands. You can force people into playing your game and give yourself a better read of them in better ways, IMO. Ask them questions, ask for opinions, etc etc. If it works for you, thats fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like it. | ||
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Do I think my play was perfect? Hell no. It was my first scum game. But I honestly feel like I did a pretty decent job of pretending to be a townie, because I did play this game with the mindset of a townie. Which, as odd as it is, is exactly what a good scum's mindset should be. | ||
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On September 14 2012 13:33 Acrofales wrote: @Risen: to give specific advise I would have to actually read this game and I don't have time right now. What I remember tripped you up in SMBB was that you did post a lot, but every post had a different opinion. iGrok was scum, no Grush, no iGrok after all, together with Tali. By the time you actually got it right, it was easy to dismiss as "throwing blame around to see where it'll stick" and paint you as scum. Hell, I am not even sure anybody was actually convinced you were scum by the time you died in that game, but you had no credibility either way. So yes, on the one hand it's a good idea to post a lot and keep your ideas flowing. On the other hand, you mustn't want to post every little theory you come up with. Write them down for yourself to keep them in mind and gather evidence for and against. Then make a post about it when you are more convinced which hypothesis is true, rather than posting them all. But this is all based on a different game and I don't know if it's remotely similar to what happened here. In GoT mafia your problem was mainly going all nuts at WBG Also, yea you did that a lot. By the time you died, you had literally accused 6 out of the 8 people of being scum, and all of them after their vote for you (except for prplhz). | ||
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On September 14 2012 13:36 Keirathi wrote: @BH: It's really easy to say that, but then why do people like Marv win every game as scum? Does he just get good luck with setups and terrible towns every time that never pressured him? No, he wins because he can pretend to be a townie without all that much trouble. Do I think my play was perfect? Hell no. It was my first scum game. But I honestly feel like I did a pretty decent job of pretending to be a townie, because I did play this game with the mindset of a townie. Which, as odd as it is, is exactly what a good scum's mindset should be. Actually, you're probably right when you start getting into bigger games. Only having one scum partner is probably much, much easier than when you have 4 or 5 or whatever. | ||
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E: Good game all. Sorry town wasn't more active and people got lynched that probably shouldn't have. | ||
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On September 14 2012 13:52 Blazinghand wrote: ;_; sorry. I didn't mean to call you dumb -- I think you probably played the best out of all the players this game. When I attack an idea someone holds, I'm not attacking them personally. I'm just attacking an idea. If I seem strident to you, read this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2010/06/07/i-am-not-my-ideas/ and understand I mean no offense. Sorry, I know you weren't personally attacking me. Bleh, I've wrote and rewrote this post like 10 times, but there's really nothing to say. I just needed a smoke break to cool my jets. My bad <3. | ||
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On September 14 2012 14:13 Risen wrote: Mannnn, when I was writing that wifom stuff I just wanted town to be aware of how slippy marv could be. I guess I should have just relied on people to know that, or maybe went about saying it in a different manner, but I didn't trust anyone else to actually think T_T I think anyone who has ever played with or against scum marv, or even just read the games, should be fully aware of it. I know I certainly am. I talk to marv a lot about mafia in general. He has an extremely good understanding of the game, and there's no way anyone should ever underestimate him, regardless of your alignment. | ||
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On September 14 2012 14:18 EchelonTee wrote: why are you guys flaming a new player lol? ? | ||
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Oh, hi Ange. Well played yourself! | ||
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On September 14 2012 14:26 prplhz wrote: No one ever thought of lynching Dirkzor except a rampaging Bluelightz, and this is even though he survived until LYLO. That's really what you gotta do as townie, make sure no one is on your back. Ange777 didn't do anything this game at all since she was lynched on day1. I'm sure there would have been some more from her later (she even admits this after she died in the "man, i was just getting time for this game"-post). I mean she wasn't bad or anything but she simply wasn't alive enough to be any good. Too be fair, I had things listed in my notes to use against Dirk. I just never had to because townies were lynching other townies | ||
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On September 14 2012 14:27 Risen wrote: I disagree. I always thought the objective as town was to find scum, something Dirk did 0 of this game. Establishing yourself as town is at least almost as important as finding scum, if not as important. Look at Newbie XXVI that just ended. Scum crumbled because there was a townie circle forming and one guy picked up that because of it, the 3 scum were obvious. Granted, that only happened because of some poor NKs, but still! | ||
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On September 14 2012 14:32 Risen wrote: I don't see how Dirk established himself as town. If I was any of the other players he would have been my d2 lynch choice, and then my d3 lynch choice. I wasn't specifically talking about Dirk. Just in general. | ||
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On September 14 2012 14:37 prplhz wrote: I don't know how Dirkzor was established as townie because I didn't really read the game, the only vote he ever got was from Bluelightz who was borderline delusional at that point, voting for confirmed cops and stuff like that. WHAT? You weren't reading the game!? | ||
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Scum burnout is pretty understandable. | ||
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On September 14 2012 14:47 HiroPro wrote: Scum burnout? I wish I had a game as scum. It's been months since I was mafia T_T Well prplhz has been scum in like 4 straight minis You should secretly trade accounts with him or something lol. | ||
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