EPTBut why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted.
GSL Open Mini Mafia - Page 7
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
But why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted. | ||
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Keirathi
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That would have given Zeph a parity difference between me and BL in LYLO. Obviously, Zeph was 100% expected to either be blocked or killed. If neither happened, he would wonder why the scum let the check go through. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 12:07 Zephirdd wrote: I actually checked prplhz night 2. No reason to not roleblock me though. I should have realized you were scum when you didn't die. marv wasn't confirmed at all, why the fuck would someone who is supposedly confirmed survive over him? That thought went through my head, and I washed it with "that's just scum trying to mess with me". If you tried to use that as an argument against me, I would have been able to shut it down I think. Who would the mafia rather fight against in a LYLO situation: a well respected scumhunter with generally strong town play and really good arguer, or me, a relative newbie? And also, I was in no way confirmed. People kept acting like I was, for some reason, but it was just a RB claim on night 1. That maybe could have bought me BotD for a day, but in LYLO it should have been treated as basically never happening. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 14 2012 12:13 Zephirdd wrote: I don't know how that would go, but as much as marv is a respected scum hunter, he is no where near the worth of a confirmed townie when the confirmed cop was paranoid of him earlier and he's known for also being pretty good as scum. soo yeah, I should've thought that through  I think you would have a hard time finding any scum team in the last 2-3 months that would have wanted to leave marv alive any longer than was absolutely necessary He basically destroyed the scum team in Mad Men, lol.The only reason he didn't die night 1 was because I expected him to be protected, and I still think he would have been with almost anyone else as the medic. I know if I was town, I would have protected him. I made that mistake in dwarfs, not protecting him because I thought I had a read on him being scum. He might not have been the towniest person alive, but with a 78% chance of being town, its not worth the risk of losing him. There's a reason he dies on n1 or n2 in almost every game | ||
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Keirathi
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 12:31 Risen wrote: Zeph just nominated you for best scum player Keir. I'm pretty sure if it was you/him/X in the end he would have been lynching X. Fair enough. I'll change my play style then. I've always tried to operate under the assumption that posting a lot was pro-town. Get your thoughts out there for people to pick apart, and respond in a logical manner. I guess that's not how town operates on TL, so that's me needing to change and stop expecting TL town to change. There's literally no way he wouldn't have been suspicious of me in that situation, I think. Maybe I could have talked my way out of it, but why would I take that chance? Anyways, its all purely speculation, since prplhz wasn't lynched anyways, so its not important As far as the second part, I think its more that when you post so much without thinking through what you're saying, you're bound to slip up and say things that mafia can jump on. Posting a lot and being open with your reasoning isn't necessarily that strong of a town tell if what you say can be perceived as scummy. I mean, I didn't post as much as you day 1, but I still was pretty active comparatively. And that's about how active I am in all of my games, even as a townie. It's all about what you say and how you say it, not how many times you post. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!". Also, all your WIFOM arguments against marv felt really out of place. Like, what purpose did they serve? You basically just used a bunch of WIFOM about playing as scum together to justify a "I'm paranoid of marv" read. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 12:59 Blazinghand wrote: I actually typically advise people I attack on how to appear townie as a town player. Basically, if it's reasonable advice (write cases, give reads, etc) it forces them to either follow it or explain why they're not if your attack is good. The reason you do this is twofold: 1) no matter how sure you are you always want to give targets a chance to prove themselves townie and 2) it either forces scum to come out and engage you by taking certain actions, or for them to ignore your advice and look bad for it. Telling people what they can do to be more townie is actually a good way to push town in the right direction and make scum uncomfortable playing an anti-town game. The main reason the Risen lynch happened is that there was no clear counter-wagon. I understand your point. But look at marv's pressure vote against me on day1 for saying "I think" etc a bunch. He told me exactly what I needed to do to buy some free BotD. Had he not said that, I probably would have continued, and maybe there would have been something to make an actual case against at some point because he would have been scrutinizing me harder. Granted, that situation is a little different because I always post really iwshy-washy on day1 and get firmer as the game goes on, but the point still stands. You can force people into playing your game and give yourself a better read of them in better ways, IMO. Ask them questions, ask for opinions, etc etc. If it works for you, thats fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like it. | ||
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Keirathi
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Do I think my play was perfect? Hell no. It was my first scum game. But I honestly feel like I did a pretty decent job of pretending to be a townie, because I did play this game with the mindset of a townie. Which, as odd as it is, is exactly what a good scum's mindset should be. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 13:33 Acrofales wrote: @Risen: to give specific advise I would have to actually read this game and I don't have time right now. What I remember tripped you up in SMBB was that you did post a lot, but every post had a different opinion. iGrok was scum, no Grush, no iGrok after all, together with Tali. By the time you actually got it right, it was easy to dismiss as "throwing blame around to see where it'll stick" and paint you as scum. Hell, I am not even sure anybody was actually convinced you were scum by the time you died in that game, but you had no credibility either way. So yes, on the one hand it's a good idea to post a lot and keep your ideas flowing. On the other hand, you mustn't want to post every little theory you come up with. Write them down for yourself to keep them in mind and gather evidence for and against. Then make a post about it when you are more convinced which hypothesis is true, rather than posting them all. But this is all based on a different game and I don't know if it's remotely similar to what happened here. In GoT mafia your problem was mainly going all nuts at WBG  Also, yea you did that a lot. By the time you died, you had literally accused 6 out of the 8 people of being scum, and all of them after their vote for you (except for prplhz). | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 13:36 Keirathi wrote: @BH: It's really easy to say that, but then why do people like Marv win every game as scum? Does he just get good luck with setups and terrible towns every time that never pressured him? No, he wins because he can pretend to be a townie without all that much trouble. Do I think my play was perfect? Hell no. It was my first scum game. But I honestly feel like I did a pretty decent job of pretending to be a townie, because I did play this game with the mindset of a townie. Which, as odd as it is, is exactly what a good scum's mindset should be. Actually, you're probably right when you start getting into bigger games. Only having one scum partner is probably much, much easier than when you have 4 or 5 or whatever. | ||
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Keirathi
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E: Good game all. Sorry town wasn't more active and people got lynched that probably shouldn't have. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 13:52 Blazinghand wrote: ;_; sorry. I didn't mean to call you dumb -- I think you probably played the best out of all the players this game. When I attack an idea someone holds, I'm not attacking them personally. I'm just attacking an idea. If I seem strident to you, read this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2010/06/07/i-am-not-my-ideas/ and understand I mean no offense. Sorry, I know you weren't personally attacking me. Bleh, I've wrote and rewrote this post like 10 times, but there's really nothing to say. I just needed a smoke break to cool my jets. My bad <3. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 14 2012 14:13 Risen wrote: Mannnn, when I was writing that wifom stuff I just wanted town to be aware of how slippy marv could be. I guess I should have just relied on people to know that, or maybe went about saying it in a different manner, but I didn't trust anyone else to actually think T_T I think anyone who has ever played with or against scum marv, or even just read the games, should be fully aware of it. I know I certainly am. I talk to marv a lot about mafia in general. He has an extremely good understanding of the game, and there's no way anyone should ever underestimate him, regardless of your alignment. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 14:18 EchelonTee wrote: why are you guys flaming a new player lol? ? | ||
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Keirathi
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Oh, hi Ange. Well played yourself! | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 14:26 prplhz wrote: No one ever thought of lynching Dirkzor except a rampaging Bluelightz, and this is even though he survived until LYLO. That's really what you gotta do as townie, make sure no one is on your back. Ange777 didn't do anything this game at all since she was lynched on day1. I'm sure there would have been some more from her later (she even admits this after she died in the "man, i was just getting time for this game"-post). I mean she wasn't bad or anything but she simply wasn't alive enough to be any good. Too be fair, I had things listed in my notes to use against Dirk. I just never had to because townies were lynching other townies | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 14 2012 14:27 Risen wrote: I disagree. I always thought the objective as town was to find scum, something Dirk did 0 of this game. Establishing yourself as town is at least almost as important as finding scum, if not as important. Look at Newbie XXVI that just ended. Scum crumbled because there was a townie circle forming and one guy picked up that because of it, the 3 scum were obvious. Granted, that only happened because of some poor NKs, but still! | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 14 2012 14:32 Risen wrote: I don't see how Dirk established himself as town. If I was any of the other players he would have been my d2 lynch choice, and then my d3 lynch choice. I wasn't specifically talking about Dirk. Just in general. | ||
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