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About marv:
I'll give you that his lack of cases is disconcerting (which I already pointed out to him, but he didn't respond), and reading back through DFMM, I didn't realize just how much less information he has been forthcoming with in this game compared to that one (IE, he had large posts explaining his thought process/rationale/opinions on the major cases). Also, he dropped his case on me extremely easily (pressure vote?), and mildly buddied me.
However, like I also mentioned, he does have a few posts that feel distinctly townie: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16154605 for one. As scum, why wouldn't he just let it ride that my post said I felt like he was distancing himself from the Risen wagon by unvoting?
Also, his interactions with Risen feel different than his interactions with his "scum reads" in NMM3 and DN. Here, he was pretty "bulldog"-y. Like he was trying to keep Risen posting so that he could feel Risen out. In NMM3 and DN, he was using his arguments to convince everyone else, rather than starting a shouting match to convince himself.
Conclusion: I'm always extremely paranoid of marv. He's certainly good enough as scum to be scary, and generally is more open and forthcoming about his reasoning as town. I'm not sure I have a firm grasp on how to read him though. I've spent a huge amount of time talking with him on IRC about strategy, past games, how he plays, how I play, etc etc. I feel like I have a decent idea of how he thinks, but the converse side of that is that he has a decent grasp on how I think as well, and is certainly smart enough to potentially use that to manipulate me if he was scum.
Basically, I'm suspicious of him, but I don't think he is the best option for today's lynch.
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So catching up, something is bothering me:
Why would scum Zeph pick a fight with town marv? Seems like there would be much, much easier people he could push today, and just get rid of marv at night. So what motivation would he have to trying to get marv lynched?
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Hmm, okay yea I didn't actually think about using his case to discredit you to buy people off of the case against him. That does make some modicum of sense.
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I already commented: your lack of clarity and openness feels more like your scum games, but I also feel like your Risen interactions feel like what you would do as a townie.
And yes, I'll give you that he was blatantly wrong about Dirk.
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On September 11 2012 00:39 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 00:33 marvellosity wrote:
Alright.
I think it's worth saying again that Ange777 died last night. She had the most well-formed suspicions of Zephirdd and in this game she wasn't necessarily the most obvious shot otherwise. HOLY FUCKING SHIT MARV ange was one of the most solid townies on the clusterfuck of day1, and i remember someone saying she is a good hunter as well. If the setup has a rb(which I nelieve it does, because I have no suspicion of keirathi) then scum would fear a medic and not shoot veterans like you and me. I, for one, would never believe a medic would protect you after this day 1 and would shoot you no problem. If someone was to be protected, it'd be keirathi from the top of my head.
I can't imagine any scumteam that would be more scared of me than marv, so I don't know why medic protect would go on me over marv unless the medic had really good reason to believe that marv was scum. Granted, Risen's ranting about marv at the end of the day could have potentially made the medic wary of marv, but that's a longshot (and a mistake I personally made in DFMM, where I convinced myself marv was suspicious and protected sciberbia n1 instead of the obvious choice in marv).
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On September 11 2012 01:09 marvellosity wrote:
Further to this, it can clearly shown to be scum motivated.
Why does he want BLUES TO CLAIM on his strongest townread?
If one Boxer claims, and a scum counterclaims and another townie claims, where are we now? In a mess of confusion.
Why does Zephirdd want this possible mess when Kei is his towniest read? Why does he need Kei confirmed BY OUTING BLUES?
Yea, I completely agree. It just doesn't make any sense, and is totally scum motivated. That's why I questioned him about it when he first said it, and add on that I'm his towniest read? Yea, no deal.
##vote: Zephirdd
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##unvote
Those crumbs seem credible. I noticed how weird both of those quotes felt, but I'm terrible at noticing crumbs.
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So, in light of Zeph's claim, can we take another look at vader?
1) Tunnels Risen for all of day 1. In fact, besides quoting 2 posts from me, he hasn't mentioned a SINGLE person in this game outside of Risen. Literally no one.
2) Promise to be around today and answer questions that he hasn't delivered on, while we were all fighting amongst ourselves.
3) No reads at all. Like, how was there nothing at all to get from day 1?
4) Overall lurkiness all game.
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EBWOP: Oh, he also quoted a post from Dirk. But my point still stands, he hasn't actually directly mentioned a single person aside from Risen.
Also, I feel like some of his points for his "read" on Risen were really weak and stretching (particularly the whole "OMG he used bold green letters!", when there were so many more plausible things to vote him for).
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On September 11 2012 01:52 marvellosity wrote:
Keirathi, what do you make of BL completely avoiding the main arguments of today?
I'm of two thoughts:
First, it makes sense for him not to get into the argument about Zeph. He already stated multiple times that he had a town read on Zeph, and wasn't going to vote him today. So, in that context, his case on v7 makes sense as part of trying to stop the Zeph train.
However, he stated he was suspicious of you day 1 and mildly stated he was still paranoid about you today, but his counterwagon to the Zeph case was on v7 instead of adding more information to his townread's case against you. Doesn't make much sense.
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I think I prefer vader over BL.
BL does have some contradictory points, but vader just straight up said he was going to be around and answering questions today but hasn't. And he said he has absolutely nothing in the way of reads, and that all of the cases today felt bad to him.
Completely disinterested, lurky, backed down on his promise:
Vote: vaderseven
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EBWOP: ##Vote: vaderseven
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Can we get a vote count? <3
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On September 11 2012 06:08 Dirkzor wrote:
Since no one wants to play or care about this I'm going to bed. My life is to short to sit here and f5 when nothing happens...
Sorry, I was out working in the yard. Just came in to take a break because its like 100 degrees outside.
Anyways, yea, I'm pretty content with the vader lynch, for the reasons I already stated. I'm a little worried that he could just be legit-busy townie, but why promise to be here today and then not do it? He hasn't even tried to defend himself. I think its more likely that he's scum trying to just fly by under the radar.
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Really? You promised to be here today and participate, then 10 minutes before deadline you FINALLY show up and claim medic because your neck is on the line?
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Meh. This is fucking dumb. Now both of our blues are dead and both of the mafia are still alive.
Good fucking game.
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Yea, I'm really liking the prplhz lynch now. I gave him the BotD because marv seemed convinced that he was too active and interested to be scum, and the other cases today had merit as well. How long before we stop giving his terrible play the BotD and hold him accountable for the scummy shit he's done?
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I've been staring at this thread for like 2 hours (with an occasional IRC break) since I got home trying to make some sense of it.
Some things I noticed: Bluelightz and prplhz had basically no interactions with each other until n1, then suddenly prplhz has a fully fleshed out. Except, once the day starts, prplhz is MIA (and therefore isn't voting BL) for basically the whole day, and then hops onboard the v7 lynch at the end. Meanwhile, BL *still* hasn't given an opinion about prplhz. His only mention of him at all was to respond to prplhz's case. Early on in the Risen debacle, he gave Risen a public town read, but didn't mention anything about the prplhz.
I'm pretty sure we have our scumteam here, but Dirkzor does complicate things. I basically have a completely null read on him. I know that he's been here and posting, but nothing he has said has ever really stood out or been memorable. Reading back over today, he flat-out defend BL earlier in the day, and then after the Zeph claim and we start meandering around: 1) i called out vader 2) Zeph called out BL 3) marv agrees with zeph that BL is scummy, and has a town read on vader 4) Zeph votes for BL 5) Dirk steps in with a big case on vader, and all the conversation about BL stops.
@marv, Zeph: I still think prplhz is the scummiest person, and I'm not really sure why both of you have deemed BL to be scummier. BL does seem to have links to prplhz AND Dirk, so I guess I can kind of see your reasoning and if you wanted to lynch BL first i could consolidate there, but it feels "wrong" not to be voting my scummiest read.
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On September 11 2012 17:29 prplhz wrote:
Hey Keirathi why am I scum? You want to lynch me, but you also want to lynch the guy I have been pushing for days.
I already made my case against you on n1. On top of that, all you did day2 was lurk, then show up at the very end and throw a weak vote on vader to avoid a mod-kill.
And "pushing for days" is being extremely generous to yourself. You made a case halfway through n1, and your only "push" to get people to vote it d2 was "I don't like the Zeph case. Why is everyone ignoring BL".
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EBWOP: For reference, just in case you're too lazy to go back and look:
On September 09 2012 06:48 Keirathi wrote:
prplhz
1) OMGUS vote against Risen. He tried to say it wasn't an OMGUS vote, but his wording was literally "I can't believe that Risen can be serious." Why does a townie need to get that defensive over a fluff case at the start of the game? Yes, the case was terrible, but prplhz's response to it was equally terrible.
2) Unvotes Risen to sheep marv onto the case against me, without any explanation. Then, when marv hops onto Risen, prplhz sheeps him again and re-votes Risen.
3) Never really pushes anyone until the lynch outcome was basically already decided. His case on Risen was so late that, while it added some new points, it doesn't really feel like scumhunting, and more like trying to make sure he had some quality scumhunting in his filter.
I will say this though, having played with scum prplhz in Dwarf Fortress, he is definitely more active and involved here. Hell, he never even had a single case in DF, was almost modkilled, and only showed up at the end of the day to defend himself from lurker accusations. That's really the only experience I have with him though, so I'll ask other people who have played with him more: is prplhz's scum meta ALWAYS disinterested and lurky?
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EPT
