EPTOn September 08 2012 09:27 marvellosity wrote:
so, no-one around at all?
so, no-one around at all?
I am back.
GSL Open Mini Mafia - Page 3
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I am back. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I'll be honest, I kind of feel bad about Risen now, but damn he was playing scummily. Initial thoughts post-flip: something feels off about you. But I say that every game. You're so goddamn hard to read. Your only real case was the one against me for saying "I think" a bunch, when you've read my games and talked with me more than anyone else here. And you dropped it extremely easily, then even said "Good post Kei" to something I said at the end of the day. However, some of your posts feel distinctly townie, like saying you still take responsibility for the Risen lynch even after you were off the wagon. I'm still looking at Zeph and prplhz as my top two scum reads right now. Maybe throw vader in there too. I'll be taking a good hard look through their filters before the day post and getting some solid information out. What about you? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 08 2012 19:04 Dirkzor wrote: Keirathi why do you feel bad about the Risen lynch? He was the most scummy in the game and we lynched his ass. Only scum feel they need to apologize for there choice of lynch to not seem detached. Yes he was town and that sucks but the lynch was good. I'll be re-reading my notes (and updating them) and re-reading day 1 tomorrow. Gut feeling have me pointing fingers at zeph and vader7. Nothing substantial yet though... Yea, you're right. If we replayed day 1 over again 100 times, I would probably make the same vote in 95+ of them. I just hate lynching townies (even bad ones), especially when they are the most active person in the thread. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 09 2012 00:35 Keirathi wrote: Yea, you're right. If we replayed day 1 over again 100 times, I would probably make the same vote in 95+ of them. I just hate lynching townies (even bad ones), especially when they are the most active person in the thread. EBWOP: What happened to your gut feeling about me being scum? You mentioned that you thought I had done scummy things, and replied to Ange saying that it was my wishy-washiness early game, into suddenly having a hard opinion, and that it was a gut feeling, but not enough to vote me over Risen. But now you have gut feelings about 2 new people, I'm not listed anymore. So why did you change your opinion? You didn't ever actually give any reasons, and only mentioned me those 2 times. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
You said that you had a null read on V7 twice. On September 06 2012 22:52 Bluelightz wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 20:02 Dirkzor wrote: Both points can be scum traits aswell as town traits. I still see his VT claim as stupid and unnecesary. Could you explain why those could be scum traits? Comparison of Zeph/V7's vote's: On September 06 2012 06:43 Zephirdd wrote: Risen is not scum, or at least he doesn't look scum based on meta. I could tell you why, but it's information about an ongoing game. Suffice to say he flipped scum there and he looked very differently from these initial three posts. On the other hand, a rule that seems to work a lot is Kenpachi Rule extended: everytime someone cares about some bullshit from the first post of a player, he's scum. This applies for both prplhz and Risen here, but only one of them is an OMGUS. That was quick huh ##vote prplhz Point no.1 Saying that by meta he IS town (which I believe he is, but for other reasons), but doesn't explain HOW is it different (even though it's an ongoing game, I think zeph could've give at least a small detail. Point no.2 Times how that rule has worked, is irrelevant (I don't think that a rule that worked alot might ALWAYS work). Point no.3 Vote's prplhz off an OMGUS (doesn't explain why it's scummy) ******************************** On September 06 2012 12:09 vaderseven wrote: First off, I agree with prplhz that his vote on Risen is NOT an omgus. I also agree with his general read on Risen and would like to add to it. This post bothers me alot. Your first post is to declare, with a big bold picture and green text, that you are Green and that we should trust you. You go on to say some feel good stuff about how we will win cuz we are awesomesauce or something. What prplhz wrote there is fairly standard first post kinda stuff. He is asking people to post so that he can scum hunt... so that makes him scum?? I see no merit to that thought. I really just don't like your play at all this game Risen. I am feeling fairly sure, for a day 1, that you are either not thinking AT ALL before you post (and I think I recall playing with you before and not thinking that) or you are scum and just not doing a 100% job of hiding it. Of the two possibles there, I find it a fair chance for it to be that you are aggressive scum that is hiding it poorly. ##vote Risen He explain's why he think's prplhz is town, and explains why Risen's post's are scummy. Who I think MIGHT be scum from this is, Zephirdd, but the balance might be shifted by the point's of that V7's post seems more careful (explain's everything) while Zeph's is less careful (quick look at the post into he's SCUM). Conclusion: Zephirdd slightly leaning scum because if his response Vaderseven - Null, will read more into his filter later (mostly thinking about the careful/reckless response to the Risen/prplhz voting) Then again: On September 07 2012 21:56 Bluelightz wrote: + Show Spoiler + My promise from yesterday: Keirathi: I think he's town, he's been tunneling Risen, but is persistent to his read (which I think is townie because he doesn't take the easy way of voting and makes a case and defends it), he also defends himself when accused by marv. I have an odd feeling on marv, meta check! Scum marv (NMMII) This game's marv Do you guys see a similarity?I think I do, when I look at his post's, they are: one-liners!, some useless, some pointing out x,y or z. Particularly, his post's don't have much content (or do they :O?), his stances, are understandable, but we don't know why: On September 07 2012 21:18 marvellosity wrote: i'm not a fan of lynching prplhz today See the stance? yes, see why? no. (Marv could you explain please?) marvellosity: Odd feeling he might be scum, filter's look the same, but i'd see if he dies N1 or not (Sorry marv, it's normal nao  )My final stance on v7/Zeph: Zeph: Townie v7: Still null. Why? v7: He believes Risen IS scum, he has posted mostly (all) about him, but he has not posted about anything else. Zeph: How he was very open, how he provided information willingly as soon as Death Note ended, I consider townie. However, Your very next post (with no post from vader in between): On September 08 2012 01:04 Bluelightz wrote: I'm gonna vote v7, because he's the most scummy candidate I have for now (Between Zeph/Risen who I believe both or townie, or my slight marv read that hinges on who get's killed day 2), and that, he hasn't talked about anything else BUT Risen. ##Vote: vaderseven (Also, I sadly can't be there for the deadline, unless I wake up early.) How did he go from null two different times, to your scummiest read with no interaction from him? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
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On September 09 2012 03:27 Ange777 wrote: @Keir: What do you think of Zeph? I've said a few times that he was in my top 3 scum reads. I agree with you that his only real case was on Risen, and it just repeated points that were already made multiple times in the thread. Easy way to look like he's participating. The key, I think, is what he said before that case on Risen. He was pretty certain that Risen wasn't scum. On September 06 2012 06:43 Zephirdd wrote: Risen is not scum, or at least he doesn't look scum based on meta. I could tell you why, but it's information about an ongoing game. Suffice to say he flipped scum there and he looked very differently from these initial three posts. On the other hand, a rule that seems to work a lot is Kenpachi Rule extended: everytime someone cares about some bullshit from the first post of a player, he's scum. This applies for both prplhz and Risen here, but only one of them is an OMGUS. That was quick huh ##vote prplhz On September 06 2012 23:51 Zephirdd wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 21:33 Ange777 wrote: EBWOP: I don't know about Zeph. Has there been any real success with the (extended) Kenpachi rule? Anyway, Zeph's reasoning sounds more reasonable to me than V7's. I see Risen's first post as a common seen fluffy first post and therefore don't understand V7's vote. Yes. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=12#232 I don't think there is much more difference from my vote to Risen's vote on this game. I didn't even talk to my teammates before posting that, and JingleHell's first post is complaining about me. I go into QT and say "wtf jingle that was a bait for other townies" his answer is "I want to follow my meta, I'm very aggressive as town" There is also this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625¤tpage=5#84 Fact is that it's a completely null post that makes scum think it's a good way to start a case or simply a way to blend in. It is a scum bait. I call it "extended" because it is no different from the VT-claim Kenpachi Rule that so well works on other games, like NMM2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349058¤tpage=7#130 (Bluelightz was scum) On Bluelightz' case, 1. Now that game is over, I'll go for it. Risen does not claim stupid null shit. That's it. At least he looks different from both games(this and DN mini); I can't say he's getting better over time though. 2. The number of times a rule has worked is relevant. Mafia is a game of chances and nothing is 100%(except the setup). 3. It's scummy because it's a O-M-G-U-S what the hell. Not because he is voting whoever voted him, it's because he is voting for the reasoning "you can't be serious about this". Kinda outlined it on the following posts nicely. On another note, I have a question to Risen Why do you think prplhz is scum? Tell us chronologically. Sounds like he had pretty strong reasons for believing that Risen was town, but when the train got rolling on Risen he was happy to jump aboard with other people's arguments. Also notice that past his initial vote on prplhz (and the two subsequent posts explaining his Kenpachi Rule Extended), he hasn't really mentioned him again. In fact, he believes BL is scum now, who hadnt even mentioned at all as having any scummy feelings towards during the day. But suddenly he's super sure. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Zephirdd - My case is just a few posts up, so just going to link it: Zeph Case prplhz 1) OMGUS vote against Risen. He tried to say it wasn't an OMGUS vote, but his wording was literally "I can't believe that Risen can be serious." Why does a townie need to get that defensive over a fluff case at the start of the game? Yes, the case was terrible, but prplhz's response to it was equally terrible. 2) Unvotes Risen to sheep marv onto the case against me, without any explanation. Then, when marv hops onto Risen, prplhz sheeps him again and re-votes Risen. 3) Never really pushes anyone until the lynch outcome was basically already decided. His case on Risen was so late that, while it added some new points, it doesn't really feel like scumhunting, and more like trying to make sure he had some quality scumhunting in his filter. I will say this though, having played with scum prplhz in Dwarf Fortress, he is definitely more active and involved here. Hell, he never even had a single case in DF, was almost modkilled, and only showed up at the end of the day to defend himself from lurker accusations. That's really the only experience I have with him though, so I'll ask other people who have played with him more: is prplhz's scum meta ALWAYS disinterested and lurky? vaderseven 1) In his first post, he soft-defends prplhz, and then voted Risen because of Risen's initial post with some shaky reasoning (that his green Fruitdealer flavor text felt scummy, and that he's not doing a good job of hiding his scumminess? I don't even really know what that means) 2) Again maintains that the green flavor text was scummy. Of all the things that Risen did that were scummy, this is maybe the least alignment telling thing in his entire filter. What made it so scummy? 3) I know someone already pointed this out already, but I can't remember who it was: vaderseven wrote: I was going to list out a huge number of sub points but I think its better left at this: you are squirming like scum trying to be very active. Your goal is to use a large amount of direct response to defend yourself. Why was it better left at that? He isn't making his thoughts and intentions clear. Maybe just lazy/disinterested, but certainly not transparent. All of which are scum traits. Add on that he's lurking pretty hard, and my day 1 impression is noob scum trying to fly by under the radar. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I was roleblocked. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 09 2012 09:49 vaderseven wrote: That narrows down the setup types possible OR you are lieing in order to make us think that. Not saying you are a liar btw. So which is it? Do you think I'm lying or not? Anyways, yes. This narrows the setup possibilities down. We either have 1 cop and 1 doc, or 2 BoxeR's. Whoever the blues are know the exact setup now. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
This is starting to feel like dwarf fortress all over again. | ||
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Keirathi
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On September 09 2012 19:24 Bluelightz wrote: Your logic: I should've voted Risen. My logic: Voted vaderseven because zeph/risen I thought was town. Err, what? I didn't ask you why you didn't vote Risen. I asked you how your null read suddenly turned into your strongest scum read. Do you literally have a town read on every single person in the game, so the best you could do was vote a null read? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 10 2012 00:04 Bluelightz wrote: During d1, the best you could vote was following the Risen bandwagon train? I voted v7 because if we swinged votes it would be more likely(easier) to gather support to lynch v7 as some people have already voiced their willingness / say's that the lynch target is between Risen / zeph / v7. Zeph lynch thoughts: Will I vote zeph? No. Why wouldn't I? because he has proven his innocence (to me), by being willing to share information with town, even if he picked an easy target (meh) to pick on, by doing that he is actively trying to find scum (he thinks i'm scum) and not wasting time doing other stuff. Yes, the best I could do was vote Risen. I made a case, gave plenty of reasoning, and argued with Risen about it for hours. I voted for my scum read. So you voted for your null read. I can kind of understand your reasoning, BUT: who was your scum read? You never actually pushed one at all. The only person you ever even mentioned that you thought was scummy was Zeph, and you changed that to a townie read based on one post. If there were 3 lynch candidates, but you had a town read of two of them and a null read on the third, wouldn't the appropriate play be to make a case on the person you thought was scum, with supporting evidence etc, and try to get people off of your town read? But instead, you took the easy way out and just put a throwaway vote with no real reasoning behind it onto v7. Sounds like you didn't particularly care if Risen died, even though he was a "Town read". | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
As far as defending Risen while you were sleeping: I made my case on Risen at September 07 2012 02:02 forum time. The day ended at September 08 2012 07:00. You were sleeping for 29 hours? No, of course not. You came in and made a couple posts in that period, but still DIDN'T PUSH A SCUM READ. You just threw your vote onto vader with the only justification that he talked only about Risen. Did you honestly expect people to unvote Risen and vote vader based on that? | ||
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Keirathi
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Zeph, BL, vader, my question about prplhz? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On September 10 2012 05:35 marvellosity wrote: Oh, about the scum meta? Well, I provided two other mini games than Dwarf for people to look at, and I thought my opinion was pretty clear about it (partly why i want to know where he is now). Yea, your opinion was that he was more active and involved here than he was in those games. I was just curious if anyone had any reference point for an active/involved scum prplhz, or if he could be pulling the wool over our eyes. On September 10 2012 05:35 marvellosity wrote: My vote is on Zeph, what do you want to know? ----- Back to Zeph for a moment, he rolled scum in Mad Men, NMM2, and PTP3... from my perspective it makes sense that he's not able to give this game his all. I know when I've rolled scum a couple of times in succession it drains me. If he's town, I would have expected him to be eager to get stuck into playing town this game. Well, you had mentioned him a bunch, but almost all one liners without really much explanation. Hard to get a read on your motivation and thought process if all you say is "Yea im down with a zeph lynch". This explanation of his play does have some merit, so I'll go check out those games. On September 10 2012 05:35 marvellosity wrote: vader looks bad for reasons BL stated. The only reason BL ever gave was that vader did nothing but talk about Risen. Which, I admit, is certainly a scummy point. But scummy enough to put him into your top reads? On September 10 2012 05:35 marvellosity wrote: BL looks bad but that's BL for you. It's entirely unsurprising to me that he would not have a proper scumread to vote on day 1 - see my meta analysis of him in NMM3, i.e where he produced a spreadsheet of near-universal townreads when in line for the (mis)lynch I was leading on him at the time. I remember the spreadsheet comment and how you jumped off of him. But, I was reading that game with the knowledge of who the scum were already, so I was more interested in the ways you guys (well, you specifically, since I was talking with you), kept suspicion off of yourself, so I didn't actually pay that much attention to what the townies were doing. However, prplhz linked WoF, where as a townie, yes BL did have a lot of town reads. I feel like the difference is that he had scum reads too, and made cases against them. I'll go check his filter from NMM3 now, though. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
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On September 10 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: If there is a BoxeR, claim now. Keirathi's claim will be rendered true if there are two BoxeRs, or false if there is only one, and if it's false he is confirmed scum, otherwise he is most likely town. Which is immensely helpful when considering other players reactions. The logic doesn't really make sense. Even if there are two BoxeRs, if one of them thought I was scum, couldn't they just refuse to claim and therefor by your logic, I would be an instant-lynch? Also, I was RB'd, so the scum knows that its either setup A, or setup D. If a BoxeR claims today, then scum knows that its setup D, and that they don't have to worry about a cop or doc at all. And here you are, wanting a BoxeR to claim to confirm me as scum. Something about that doesn't sit right. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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