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Just stop posting summaries. If you have questions about how to play, play more newbie games. I suggest you go read Ver's TL Mafia XXX analysis. Don't come back until you do. Everyone needs to read that. The TL meta is so bad right now that I think everyone should go back and read it (reread it if youv'e read it before) and stop posting in this thread until you've absorbed every word and point in that game.
The setup in that game is also very similar so there you go. Rewok, seriously, I do believe you to just be new town but your summaries and reads are doing nothing to help.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147475
On September 05 2012 10:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 10:06 BlackMamba24 wrote: I see. I want you to know that if shit hits the fan and mattchew is blue/black, that i have you completely figured out. Eh? If he flips blue I am going to rip him a new one after game. If he flips black I will be surprised as hell but could understand taking that risk. However his reaction since being proven a liar suggests red. I cannot believe a townie or third party would just give up at this point.
We'll see what happens.
On September 05 2012 10:09 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 10:03 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 09:59 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 05 2012 09:48 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 05 2012 09:47 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 05 2012 09:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 09:32 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 05 2012 09:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 09:17 Ottoxlol wrote: I just don't get it. Why is it simpler to fuck up as scum? Tell me "kid". I went into the whole hypotethical thing because I was discussing why would a nonscum Matt fake-claim. So why would a scum Matt fake-claim? if this was a selfaware miller game, a tracker could very well track him n1 then if he's scum it would be revealed. Think of it this way. It was a question never answered by Palmar in thread. Now, most people (even if self aware miller) tend to not claim as even if they do claim people tend to not take them seriously unless a group of them does it. Now, when one person claims, you can gauge the towns reaction and then to prove that millers are self aware the scum team slowly "claims". Basically you can have an entire team or 2-3 people out themselves in this manner and be given a full get out of lynch free card should the people they visit die for a night or two. This may not seem to be much but it means later on in the game people start arguing about if the claims are legit, are only some of them legit, etc.... It makes no sense for town to fakeclaim but in an setup that was so ambiguous it would be a brilliant move if you could pull it off. My only frustration is I could have potentially snagged more than just him had I waited longer before calling him out. why would they get out of any lynch if someone they visited died? 2-3 people claim nosy. Tracker or watcher sees one of them go to someone who dies. They claimed nosy, we accepted the claim as legit. It means an entire day will be spent clusterfucked around who did what or the like. As they claim nosy, if its accepted near no tracker will check them so only a watcher will see them and if he sees 2 people visit someone who dies the non claimer will be the one killed. Even if you figure out that 1 person lied, you won't know if the others did as we have no idea on the setup numbers. As such the likelyhood of town offing them is insanely lowered unless they get bad luck by being seen by a watcher where only they visit x player. Watcher see 2 ppl over a dead body, one of them claimed noisy. lynch the other, if he flips not red vig/rb the fake noisy Which is the same thing that would happen if he was a blue fakeclaiming nosy isn't it? Unless he has a visiting role there's no reason to claim nosy neighbor like that and your scenario still applies. No one is denying that what he did was stupid but I've seen scum do much dumber things than this So we agree it was dumb. Now tell me how come everyone thinks it is a dumb scum play, not a dumb assa or blue? Don't forget he asked the other millers to claim. That can work as assassin for instance. Or baiting a scum RB to claim? IDK. All I know it gave scum a very easy D1, some ppl attacking others for defending Matt, but ignoring me. What is that about? You look horrible for your defense of matt, however you keep saying near universally the same crap over and over. You have been responded to multiple times and now just look even worse. The only reason I think you could possibly be town is I think if you were red your team would have told you to quit it by now. Yet you are not answering my response about why would a scum claim And I have to repeat the same crap over and over again because no one is answering. Everyone is on Matt. No one can say why is it more likely that hes scum than blue or assa, no one voted on him with some case explaining it. Scum planted it in the thread that it is so and new players doesnt want to discuss it fearing a lynch? I have no idea.
People have actually answered your question multiple times. You just refuse to believe that a scum would make such a bad play, a block that will prevent you from catching many scum in the future.
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Z-BoSoN hasn't posted since heaping suspicion on BC and from what I recall of at least the Death Note Obs QT he is quite attentive and active on TL, reading and updating himself a lot.
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Wow, I missed it, I was looking for it on the second page. You actually voted right before I did. LOL I withdraw everything, sorry for being so careless.
Anyway, reads are useless because it doesn't lead to anything. It doesn't pressure anybody and it won't get someone lynched. Why should I make a post with just a list of people and then my best guess to their alignment? Who does that help? I think it's stupid.
Like your whole thing about Hapa is just worthless. You think maybe he's town maybe he's scum but you don't really see it either way and have no strong read. What the hell is the point of that? How does that help us lynch scum? It doesn't. Therefore it's worthless. The only reason reads would be useful would be as part of pressuring a suspected scum, you want to know what they think and find inconsistencies. I think I've made it fairly obvious what my general stance is this game without making any kind of ridiculous post full of reads and bullet points. I just don't like that.
Anyway, BloodyC0bbler just explained to you why his actions were scummy. Basically he called out a player out on a lie to start a bandwagon and failed to provide proof. This means, at least to me, that he must have had privileged information and generally people with privileged information Day 1 are scum. He kept going on and on about Mattchew but couldn't provide evidence. No one believed him, I was the only person to be aggressive about it but then I realized he just couldn't say how he knew since he knew from a mod PM and that's when I backed off. Does that make sense? I still think BC might be scum though.
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I have bad spamming habits but basically my stance against reads as town is that I don't want to post anything that isn't going to provide direct pressure/focus on a single player or lead to scum slipping up or getting lynched. I'm fine defending/explaining myself but beyond that, I don't really like to come in and say "Hey here's a summary of my thoughts" because no one really needs to or should know what I'm thinking. If I post my reads prematurely, it can tip off scum to where I'm going and they can manipulate me or stop acting suspiciously if they know I'm on to them before I have a strong case.
Mafia can post their "reads" all game and blend in without ever taking a real stance of pushing anyone. People who just come in every day to say "Hey guys, all caught up now. Anyway here's my thoughts:
Player x - Has a good argument but at the same time so do other people...hmmm not really sure leaning scum/town Player y - Leaning scum. Kinda lurky. Lurkers need to post. Blahblahblah Player z - Has been really aggressive but could be scum disrupting but also sometimes townies are aggressive and fearless so I'm not really sure"
It's rarely as obvious as that ^ but TL towns are stupid as hell so mafia can post useless bullshit like that all day and get away with it and I want to discourage people from posting thoughtless tiny summaries of their "reads" and actually try
even though I say that I am probably the laziest player ever, I almost never reaad the rules/setup of any game I'm in and rarely look at peoples filters and I react really prematurely to stuff. I should point out that it's consistent with my town meta, mafia that know me well usually make plans to distract me by attacking me or playing badly because it throws me off so bad that i can't scumhunt well
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He's not using the same logic, I think he genuinely misunderstands why I voted for BC
and new players have all been taught by other bad townies that posting a lot and posting your reads is good when it's trash so i'm not surprised
i drop the fos on him completely, goodkarma isn't scum or at least if he is he hasn't revealed himself yet
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just woke up - don't expect me in the thread much earlier than this unfortunately
ffs, just because claiming miller is a bad move as scum doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. it's a bad move regardless of his role so you can't really justify it better by town or black alignment. there are other factors that others have pointed out, mainly his complete lack of defense and implicit guilt when BC first accused him
stop arguing with ottox because if that doesn't answer the basic question of "why people are voting for him" then he's belligerent, has really high standards or is actually dumb enough to believe no one ever makes misplays
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btw just so all the newbies know, mattchew flipping scum in no way indicates BC's alignment
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im making a wild guess that mattchew is assassin and bloodycobbler/gravan are both scum just so that if it actually happens that way later i look really smart and cool
i figure BC is probably mafia target #1 or #2 if he actually is town so it shouldn't matter if i say he's pretty much guaranteed to be either scum or a tracker
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ooh and if BC is scum so is Z-BoSoN imo
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Here we go, I at least need an answer from BC here. I'm probably dead tonight so I gotta post what I can. If mafia keeps me alive to lynch me later, they're dumb.
BloodyC0bbler - Changes his opinion of m and then lies about it. . First accuses me of being Mattchew's scumbuddy, then later claims he knew I was town all along and would have done the same thing. When he first claimed Mattchew was lying, he was belligerent toward other townies and even claimed I was Mattchew's scumbuddy.
As such you have defended a confirmed liar and are scum with him.
One question on my mind was "why is it that BC knew Mattchew was lying before anyone else?" e also used his first post to call him out. Nothing before that. Scum would of course be the first people expected to ask any role/setup questions along with blues, but blues usually only ask about their own roles. If it weren't for the inconsistency in his perception of my alignment (softly accusing me, unnecessary if he is town who thinks i'm town, then goes to "yeah I knew you were town from the beginning") I would assume he was a tracker. If he's a tracker, I've just outed him to the scum now but he's going to be hit target #1 regardless so it doesn't really matter tbh.
I just want BC to answer to this. We know how he got the information, it seems an awfully strange question to ask before posting unless you saw his claim before you entered the thread and wanted to make sure. But surely you'd have something else to comment on? If it's a bus, it's a good bus.
So consider that just pressure. I don't think BC or anyone is cleared by this flip. I've seen scum do buses like this and in fact I've orchestrated them myself. If mafia planned on bussing Mattchew previously it makes sense that BC's first post would be a call out. I really just want BC to answer about that inconsistency with regards to my alignment.
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You'll find most of the scum team in these three groups.
1. People who went actively or softly against the Mattchew lynch: Ottoxlol/Gravan
2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts
3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people.
"Well that settles it...##Vote: Mattchew /disappear from thread"
Ottoxlol is scum. If he isn't, he needs to read Ver's guide 100 times before he signs up for another game. He didn't present an alternate target. His only clear motivation was to defend Mattchew NOT to lynch scum. He says Hapa and Toad tried to silence him and lied, but he never pushed either of them as a lynch target. Worthless vote on Toad who isn't even remotely scummy. Vig's absolutely hit this guy tonight.
This is the only time you're gonna get general reads because I could die tonight. Town players, serious scumhunters, take another look at sloOsh and Shady Sands. sloOsh was absent for the majority of the thread, asking a lot of questions in the beginning (not alignment indicative in and of itself, scum do it for cred town do it to pressure) and being very very invested in everyones opinions, disappearing when mattchew is 100% getting lynched, then pops up at night "Hey guys who do we kill next?" That's scum behavior through and through.
Shady Sands was far more FARRRR more active in Death Note Mafia. I think Assassins should hit both of these targets tonight because I believe them to be either black or red.
If you're unsure if someone is scum/assassin but have good reason to think they are scum, broadcast their case as an assassin so that assassins will hit the scum at night and help us win faster. I'm gonna read over Bill Murray's filter a couple times and doublecheck everything since I don't want to make the same mistake I made with GoodKarma again and if something comes of it, I will post a case just before the day comes. Or before I go to bed.
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sloOsh says people who dropped a vote and then lurked are scum. That's exactly what he did. Ottoxlol is indefensible. Why are people still talking about Maverick? My attack on him was a misunderstanding, pay attention.
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and why is sloOsh parroting Bill Murray's reads when Bill Murray's reads are incomprehensibly bad
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because mattchew was indefensible and if you really didn't think he was scum you made no serious attempt to push anyone else, only acted belligerent and negative which isn't pro-town at all regardless if there was a discussion or not. i get why you thought mattchew was an assassin and how the move was too bad/stupid for scum to make but i don't agree with it, that doesn't mean i didn't get it. nobody agreed with you. in a game full of veteran mafia players not one single person thought you had a good point, do you think that might mean something buddy? or are you some kind of mafia prodigy gift from the heavens
yeah, i was wrong about assassins, i messed up thinking they were like ninjas from other games, i rarely read the full setup of any game im in because the setup/mechanics is always the least important part of any given game so i just skim them
@sloOsh voting before the announcement means nothing. anyone who was scum with mattchew would know it was only a matter of time before palmar confirmed the nosy neighbor stuff to other people so that isn't gonna buy anyone town cred with me at least
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On September 06 2012 08:01 Maverick32x wrote: Why am I being casually FoS'ed? I don't think I've ever seen a solid case against me, but I keep seeing people just drop my name into the list as an add-on without any reason?
I find THAT a bit suspicious. because scum are parroting Bill Murray who started looking at you after I FoS'd you but then I retracted it and they're not paying enough attention to have caught up to that fact yet
BM retracted it as well
I think SloOsh might be ninja actually because it would be really really fucking weird for scum to say that people who dropped a vote and then left are scum despite having done the exact thing themselves. in fact, i would figure scum to at least come in after palmar and make some half assed attempt at looking town
ninjas are probably paying the least attention to the game out of everybody because their win condition is so narrow so that would explain a lot
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why does everyone suddenly think ottoxlol is town
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seriously, vigilantes need to kill ottox the dude is 100% scum please don't go retard-mode and think he's town over some wifom
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ottoxlol is the strongest lynch candidate
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Vig ottoxlol
I provided more reasoning than anybody regarding Mattchew and even reposted once or twice so he could see it but he continues to ignore all argument/reasoning and repeat the same lie that nobody ever explained why they voted for Mattchew, no one ever explained why he is scummy besides that he lied, etc. all untrue false bullshit that can be easily demonstrated
Let's say you are town adn you think town is about to mislynch. What do you do?
A) Repeat the same arguments, when you get answers for your questions, ignore them and attack/insult people responding to you. Vote for someone else but never really push the case. When the person flips scum continue to act as though your arguments were brilliant somehow even though you are now objectively wrong about everything. Attack everyone voting for this player.
B) Explain why you think they are innocent. Find someone you think is scum and push them as much as you can. Listen to and consider the responses to your questions about the Mattchew lynch. After the lynch, try to see where your argument went wrong and reconsider your point of view.
Yeah town players can be bad. They can be assholes. But there are clear scum motivations and tells in ottox's behavior.
1) Defends only by assaulting and attacking other players
2) Avoids real argument/discussion by ignoring other peoples posts, misrepresenting them (for instance, saying I never provided reasons for my vote when I was the first to do that) and insulting others.
3) Doesn't push an alternate case with any commitment.
4) Behavior/arguments have a clear conclusion that was determined beforehand and will never change. Suggests that he has objective knowledge of something or a clear agenda.
There you go. That's enough. If Ottoxlol is not hit by a vigilante tonight which he should be, he is the absolute best lynch target for tomorrow. Period.
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On September 06 2012 08:29 Toadesstern wrote: Btw I'd agree Ottox really has to die. Even if he's town he's probably the most anti-town player in here. He'll continue derailing the thread and mafia is he's either a mafia (in which case lynching seeing him dead is a good thing, duh) or he's someone who will be pushed for a mislynch.
Having him pushed for a mislynch however is way worse than having him die because it wastes a complete cycle if he really flips green. So yeah, if you're a town-vig feel free to shoot him.
I'm feeling somewhat uneasy about most of the vets. All of them have their minor issues except for BC right now.
BM looks a little to opportunistic and I can't stop thinking that he's buddying me. Foru's posting a little to cautios for my taste Dr.H's posting feels just off. Can't really put my finger on it though. Like that post when he asked BC wether or not he understood why he didn't trust BC. That probably was the most odd post of the vets I've seen this game.
However, those are all very minor things not worth a damn on their own and frankly I doubt that more than one of them is going to flip mafia. I guess you could call this a "don't treat them as town warning" although I don't want them to be shot. Just pay attention in case I'm dead by tomorrow.
If either BC or I end up dead tonight something's wrong with our medics or we don't have medics lol. Watchers are, as already mentioned, also incredible good for us as we're unlikely to be visited by something like town trackers / vigs / mad hatters. So if someone visits us and we end up being roleblocked or shot that's Jackpot for the watcher.
Because he accused me of being his scumbuddy earlier and I wanted to see if he remembered doing that and can explain it (indicates he is genuine town) or if he's rewriting history so to speak. Ofc he could have just forgot but if you were paying attention I kinda pointed out what I thought was weird about BC earlier and that was the reason I asked that question.
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