EPTand I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
Dwarf Fortress Mini Mafia
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
and I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Great to have it at such an easy time for EU | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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If you want to have a long version of my policythoughts, here it comes. DO NOT LURK, or I will find a way to kick you in the butt. LIES DO NOT HELP (at least in 99% of cases) and therefore don't even think about it Since it's just us two right now, what about your preferences? | ||
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ShiaoPi
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 Back in all seriousness I am not too fond of doing too much policytalk either hence my first post. Will be some time until US gets to the thread I guess. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches. In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1 wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK. Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side? | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Just saw I got ninja'ed: On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages? Do Scum decide on their own who among them carries out the nightkill? What makes you think so? Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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ShiaoPi
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Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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@prphlz: If you like to listen to Forumite, I am apparently  | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Too bad I thought you found a way to circumvent the gamerules to modconfirm a tracker  | ||
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On August 05 2012 16:59 Bluelightz wrote: Tracker & Watcher show's role block action as they track role actions and not factional actions. Since NK is factional, tracker/watcher won't see it | ||
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ShiaoPi
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It's more the general concept of Hiro to use a tracker claim as means of confirming town that I am against, not against claiming in general, but scum can easily counterclaim so it won't work that way. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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On the other hand I could see it working out for the better if he claims as early as you suggest. He would leave scum fishing for the doc between the other townies. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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check the first page and the post risk linked, it's right there. Factional actions don't get tracked/watched. On your accusation (or rather opinion, it feels rather weak to me): I wanted to get started, so I posted, probably should have proofread it to avoid misunderstandings like this one. I am not against shutting down policytalk completely, I have already done some of it myslef by now. I was more stating the intent to not go overboard with it, since scumhunting is our priority. As you are doing it already, looks like my wish was granted, although on the wrong target | ||
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ShiaoPi
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@Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis: Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote: -snip- Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^ Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis | ||
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ShiaoPi
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While I agree that he can be wishy-washy regardless of alignment, I am having a lot more trouble with his discussion within his own post. I cannot quite word it the way I want to. It's like he is purposefully filling up his posts to make them harder to read and harder to understand. Also with a lot of filler which is not really beneficial at all. I put heuristics and policytalk together as I would use them as synonyms in this case. Isn't the heuristic of scumreading, things you look out for when hunting scum? Policytalk is also a general way to establish a basic frame in which you think certain stuff is agreeable. Therefore I see it as contradiction of himself. Regarding the final paragraph, maybe you can call it being self-centered much, but wasn't it the first accusation in thread? I would say it qualifies as a thread event. You can call me nitpicky if you want, but the accusation had been around for a while and when asked Mord replies with: "Wow, I totally did not see it coming?" That's more the general sentiment his post gives out. It gives me the feel that he is just acting surprised for the sake of it. Furthermore mord says he has "no idea" how that could be scummy, when he says that cutting policy talk is bad. I would equal bad in this case as scummy/anti-town behaviour therefore my conclusion at the last paragraph. Feel free to disregard the case if you want, as long as Mord does not show up and give me some scumhunting done by himself I am happy with the situation right now. What would be your preferred lynch for the day then? | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Is it just me feeling this way or did you defend yourself using the things (fluffs/filler and policy talk with no content) I critisized about you? I also do not understand what you are talking about in your last paragraph. I did not say I am voting for you because you did not arbitrarily vote for someone on terms of disagreement. I have said that you are simply doing nothing for town, while appearing to be contributing due to the large size and redundancy of your posts. You better do some good scum-hunting in order for me to get off your back. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Yes, I know his playstyle well, playing with him for the 2nd time already, it does not mean I can give him a freepass since he is wishy washy also as scum. I point it out as everyone should if they find someone with that much filler/fluff. But I also know that he can be precise, so I am waiting for his scumhunt to see. If he does a good enough job to convince me of his town-alignment than I will switch my vote to other candidates such as the lurky ones (risk, prphlz) or Forumite, although I would be more hesitant to vote him. | ||
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looks like I have to repeat what I said already towards Forumite: On August 08 2012 06:42 ShiaoPi wrote: -snip- I wanted to get started, so I posted, probably should have proofread it to avoid misunderstandings like this one. I am not against shutting down policytalk completely, I have already done some of it myslef by now. I was more stating the intent to not go overboard with it, since scumhunting is our priority. I wanted to get going and posted, nothing more nothing less. If I wanted to shut down policy stuff and discussion in general, why did I post a good deal of policy talk myself? Also how the hell is that supposed to gain town cred? It had more the effect of being called out immediately first by marv, then Forumite now you. Does that add up as "gaining town cred" to you? On the argument of me not searching for scum properly with my case, I clearly state that I see it as attempts to seem contributing while doing nothing at all, it also clutters up the thread. The most damning evidence seems to be the timing of my post as being the "first case". You show a lack of careful reading here, if sciberbia's post on Forumite was no case than I have no clue what my post was. Aren't you trying too hard to twist my posts in some scheme of gaining towncred when there is actually none? Also if you are convinced that I am scum, why don't you put down that vote? Keeping it to yourself right now does not really have an effect. | ||
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While I can agree on your point that marv seems overly cautious I cannot agree with your points about his vote. What he does by pressure voting first custos then prphlz is to discourage inactivity and not getting involved with the discussion. How can you say that this is not playing with townmotivation in mind if it helps combat anti-town play? But nevertheless, this seems to me at least an improvement from your case on me. It is correct to be wary of marv. At the moment I really do not know if it is that good to lynch prphlz...It is a lurker lynch bascially, flipping a coin on the chance that it really is different from his meta because he is scum or that he simply lacked time. Reading through the latest points of scib got me convinced that Forumite might actually be scum. Coupled with Mord actually starting to make sense, when I look at it from his point of view (no offense ) and my discomfort with a prphlz lynch I expressed above, I will change my vote to Forumite. Since my vote on Mord achieved some success in getting him to post more sensible and it probably won't get any traction looking at it in 3 hours to deadline.##unvote ##Vote: Forumite | ||
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ShiaoPi
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@Marv: I think currently Forumite is set to be lynched | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Don't understand you though risk, not like you have been doing that much on D1 | ||
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ShiaoPi
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I am taking a closer look onto the votes and how they accumulated as it should give us some info. The final votecount looked like this (if I am not mistaken): prplhz(5): DYH, Marvel, Forumite, Keirathi, risk.nuke Forumite(7): Scib, slOosh, prplhz, Hiropro, Shiaopi, Mord, CL Scib was the one who began applying pressure by writing out a (imo) really good case and he stuck to it til the end, successfully convincing enough people to get his scumread lynched, I see no need to suspect him for now. Sloosh voted Forumite early and continuously tried to garner support for said lynch after having a good look at the Mord case which went parallel with it. Nothing to see here as well. prphlz: Lurks away for most of the first half of Day 1, comes in guns blazing at the moment he is under threat of getting lynched. Although I initially said I liked his response and also stated my general intent to oppose a lynch on him, now taking a look at this with some distance his timing seems quite "fitting". I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt that he was busy and just happened to have time as it turned out to be. Also his response to the votes was good. soo slightly suspicious on him for now. HiroPro: Initially he looked okay to me but then this post here: On August 09 2012 21:01 HiroPro wrote: Alright, I'll vote for Forumite. I suppose prplhz could just be genuinely busy. ##Unvote ##Vote Forumite Notice that he posts it before prphlz is back in the thread responding to the votes. What makes you switch suddenly, when you were all to happy to lynch him based on meta and prphlz' few unhelpful posts at the beginning? After noticing this I also took a closer look at his filter and it is kind of empty without the post on prphlz. Also the switch from this here: + Show Spoiler + [QUOTE]On August 09 2012 05:32 HiroPro wrote: -snip- As for Forumite, I'll wait and see. The contradiction that sciberbia and slOosh talk about (wanting to pressure Shiao but at the same time withholding reasoning because ) is certainly present but he's brought a lot more attention onto himself actively than I would expect from a scum player and definitely looks interested in town affairs. We shouldn't lynch him today. /QUOTE] Mord: I believe my stance on him is quite clear from my filter. What I really do not understand is, while he is kind of right to place some distrust on marv his vote seems like such a throwaway especially with him being absent right after. But in regards to his voteswitch he delievers explanation and he makes sense with it. Also I think his play got a tad better since I called him out. I guess wait and see has to be the course of action on him. If he does some (wholly) decent case not like the against me or parts of the one against Marv I could see him as town, but until then no. Custos: I liked his play a lot (maybe biased because he was agreeing with me), he is also taking clear stances, trying to convince people of his opinions and as a bonus also did not doublelynch when he had the possibility (that would have been suicidal as scum though if both flipped town, so it might not matter that much.) Conclusively I want to keep an eye open on prphlz and Mordanis, while I want Hiro to answer my question before I judge him. as a heads-up I won't have too much time tomorrow and might not make it back before the deadline, will try though. Crashing out now at later than 1 AM. Night! | ||
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ShiaoPi
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After I read through, I have to say it was surprising how fast the bandwagon on cl gathered steam, considering how townie like he played (at least imo). While DYH had a good argument with CL giving his highest scumread the choice of lynch, it kind of was outweighed by double-lynch shenanigans and the general pro town behaviour he shows in his posts. Looking through the thread it gets kind of obvious that we have risk.nuke and prhplz not caring at all this game. While I find both suspicious, I would be more happy with a risk.nuke lynch but seeing that as probably not possible in the hour left til deadline, and me being unable to react in time since I won't be around for much longer, I'll put my vote on prhplz ##Vote: prphlz will post more and answer any questions directed at me as soon as I am back home. sorry again for the inactivity. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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2nd I just drove 7 hours to get home late at night. Gonna pass out now, so my bigger post will be postponed | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Still with the possibility of a modkill on him, we should probably look for scum member 3 now. I got 2 candidates right now: risk.nuke His general level of activity has been pretty low. I have been farily unimpressed with his first longer post just above. The case on CL lacks in my opinion. What exonerates him a bit is that he was actually the first to vote prhplz come day2. Could have easily been a bus with the lack of scumhunting in general. @risk: I assume your post is only halfway done. You said you would comment on more than only CL. Also why do you stop after analyzing day1? Mordanis He posts this in Day 2, when the CL train started to stutter and the majority swayed by scib switched over to prhplz. On August 12 2012 15:12 Mordanis wrote: Could someone explain to me why prplhz is so scummy? I've looked through Custodis filter and seen a lot less scumminess than I'd have hoped for. But I don't see to much at all from prplhz. His lurkiness except for when he's fighting for his life doesn't seem all that scummy to me because that was how I played in my last game. D1+D3 I was pretty active, but I spent most of my free time D2 playing DeusEx. The days I was under heavy suspicion: D1+D3. I'm not saying this makes prplhz town, I just think that lynching based on someone's only activity being defensive isn't such a great idea. Also, somehow Shiao has somehow escaped being labeled a lurker despite not having posted at all this cycle. It has been stated again and again that prphlz lurking is not his town meta, so the accusations where lack of content (which was obvious when looking through his filter) and a meta-read. Hardly hidden at all. Coupled with his lacking play in Day 1. I got some serious trouble to see townie Mord in this. Also take a look at what he posts when scib summarized the arguments against prphlz and asked him of his reads: On August 12 2012 16:03 Mordanis wrote: Frankly I don't know. On the one hand you have CL who made a large mistake in sheeping me, but it isn't alignment-indicative. It's pretty shitty play regardless. On the other hand, you have prpl who has been inactive save for defense. Really, at this point they both seem like bad cases. I really need to read through for a while before I can return with my thoughts. I will say however that all things being equal I would favor the lurker-lynch on the grounds that it might light a fire under the remaining lurkers' asses and get them posting. He had been fairly assertive that CL is scum based on DYH's case, for reference I quoted: On August 11 2012 08:09 Mordanis wrote: Actually, in my mind, the scummiest thing in the entire game so far has been your argument to lynch 3 players in a row based on the assumption that one of the players is scum, and then connection-based logic on Hiro. ##Vote Custos Luna Reading both one also has to see that when CL's connection argument was the scummiest thing in the thread why doesn't Mord refer to it again at all, when he was searching for alingment-indicative things on CL? Now look at his switchpost: On August 12 2012 17:15 Mordanis wrote: What it comes down to is whether to lynch CL for his mistakes. IMO "scumslips" are useful tools to enhance your scumhunting, not auto-lynch heuristics. The idea is that scum are more likely than town to "slip", so you look at players who "slip" to confirm their scumminess or store the information away for later. CL has in my mind 2 slips/mistakes. His "IFoundAllTheScumteam" post and his sheeping my vote. While I was at work, during the slower times I was trying to figure out whether CL's play was scummy or rusty. I couldn't decide. After reading through his filter, I have come to believe that he is not scum. -snipped- How can someone whom you accused of doing the scummiest thing of all time be exonerated of it entirely? You do not say that he could still be scum, you do not say that you are keeping some suspicion on him. It is making a 180°turn in your opinion on him. To me it looks like you are just trying to be on the "right" side of the lynch, prphlz was set to be hammered, even if you had not switched owing to the abysmal activity of the daycycle. You had alleviated some suspicions I had on you but I believe you have the highest chance to be gobbo nr.3 ##Vote: Mordanis | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Right one point in your favor is the timestamp, that's one thing I messed up with while rereading, does not take away the main effect, that you were piling onto CL as long as you had DYH applying pressure as well. When it subsided a bit due to scib's defense you turned around. Yes your vote was before the case, does not change the fact that you were on the fence about it only as long as you were not the only one doing pressure. Also regarding prphlz meta, did you check the games that were referenced to? It got pretty obvious that prphlz was different from his town games. I do not believe you to be a mindless sheep, I believe you to check a game in the past to see if the metaargument does any sense. Since you obviously did not check I can only assume two things lazy townie or scum who does not bother to read up on meta, since you know that prphlz is red anyway. Ever assumed that a "good" scum player might still slip one or two times? If you had been so sure on CL being scum, why switch? That's my main concern with you. What I would like you to do is stick with your convictions and your reads or give out valid reasons for switching. What you wrote seems to me like: "Hmmm...looks like CL won't be lynched, better switch to prphlz and add some speculations about the setup, when it is clear that prphlz is hammered. And you even said that it is scummy that he has zero content, why couldn't you see it earlier or why couldn't you remember like pretty much everyone did? Also prphlz was always an alternative to CL in regards of D2 lynch. heck he received a vote first (even if it was risk, with little to no reasoning) | ||
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@Mord: I do like how you get more assertive when I apply pressure though. Who would you want to lynch today? | ||
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That's what happens if you miss Day2 almost completely. Those were statements from Day 1, where I thought it might have been possible that he really is just busy. Following Day 2 he still did nothing and if I had been present I would have stated my change of stance on him much earlier, can't do that though without bending time so yeah take this explanation or keep hammering me. Although it looks like Mord will live another day, I am fine with a risk lynch. Have to ask though, if risk flips town and Hiro as well, what are your reads? | ||
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ShiaoPi
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anyone mind thinking about lynching Mord now? :> | ||
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ShiaoPi
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I would appreciate it if you wrote my nick correctly or abbreviate it as Shiao, while voting you seem to be able to do so, so it should not take too much effort right? Reading through in detail now | ||
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I did back off Mord a bit D1 as it was clear he was not going to be lynched, having only 2 votes close to deadline with 2 people having 3/4 votes respectively (IIRC). D2 you call me out for "buddying" to CL (fuck you CL btw), I was under the impression he had a chance to be lynched D2 if scib had not defended him and catching up to the thread that close to deadline made me think a comment on general proceedings of the day was warranted. I had him as a town read at that moment, something I have reconsidered right now. Furthermore I always tried to lynch Mord...D2 I was gone so I couldn't D1 I did it until it got clear that my vote would be worth more on one of the two principal candidates. D3 I pushed him again, only to have the majority of town decide to lynch risk, with what I was okay with. Hopefully that helps with explaining my play a bit. If it does not work, keep asking maybe I'll convince you that I am town to avoid us losing the game right now. Maybe I should stop tunneling Mord like a madman, gut reads can be wrong anyway. My other scumread besides Mord would be CL. While D1 halfway through D2 I had him as farily townie it changed with the way he played from then to now. Especially this post is ringing alarm bells: On August 17 2012 09:20 Custos Luna wrote: Sloosh, I think your case is pretty spot on. I have been tunneling Mord so hard (I do still think he's likely scum) that Shipoopie flew completely under my radar, and no one is at fault for that other than myself. Mord pointed out that Shipoopie was hiding behind everything that I was doing involving the Mord case. I missed the fact that he defended Mord D1. I'm good with shipoopie dead today. I'm looking forward to anything you can add DYH. I'm still in the process of rereading. ##vote ShiaoPi He is in my opinion "safely" bussing Mord since he will not get lynched regardless of how hard I am tunneling Mord also he is blatantly mispresenting facts. I was the one to push Mord first D1 and D3, he always just jumped onto it as only other player basicly (which was also part why I had him as town until now) ##Vote: Custos Luna Fuck you CL btw, your Latin is hilariously bad! | ||
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ShiaoPi
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If I have not pushed Mord how can you say that you tunneled him hard? That's a fucking ridiculous claim. Also look at the thing you bolded, it says that Forumite "MIGHT ACTUALLY BE SCUM" it does not say HE IS SCUM, LYNCH THE RED DUDE, GO BURN HIM WITH FIRE Seriously you want to argue semantics and you fail at it, just stop it. marv, fuck you too! <3 | ||
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ShiaoPi
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GET THE FUCK IN THE THREAD AND STUFF!!! Thanks! | ||
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Just because you are happy to mislynch me for the win, does not mean I cannot scratch and bite at you and the rest of this inactive town in an attempt to salvage what chances are left for a town victory. stupid me | ||
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Obviously it is part of my goal to stay alive since we FUCKING LOSE if you mislynch me.... Well town seems content to sheep the offline guy. GG scumteam Mord/CL | ||
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I played such a terrible game...I should probably just stop playing, feels like I am getting worse from each game to the next | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
The main problem was imo that there were few people who successfully established themselves as townie and the few who did (marv, scib come to mind) got shot at first chance, having several scummy-looking players (me, CL, Mord) did not really help as we were pretty much just at each others throats allowing scum to fly by under the radar as sloosh did or even establish themselves as townie like DYH did. Just gave way too much scummy material for actual scum to work on cases :D The other big aspect of town's loss was inactivtiy. As soon as the more active posters were dead the thread was just crawling along. So in conclusion I would say, DYH's great play+inactivity+stupid scummy townies = easy scum victory! ^^ In Retrospect I would really know how to establish yourself as townie, I look at least a bit scummy in every game I play (only rolled VT) thus far and it kind of gets annoying that I am not improving on that regard. Any tips? | ||
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