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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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1) Mason is kind of worthless for town and at face value is little different than a vanilla townie. --A normal pair of masons have the benefit of knowing that one person is definitively town, and being able to claim that later. There is no such guarantee in this game. It's just like posting in the thread with someone except without anyone else seeing it, plus they're going to be extra suspicious of you. Of course you can glean a lot of information just by talking as well, which is a plus regardless. 2) Mason is kind of a worthless role for scum. --A scum mason is an annoying role to play. Do you pick townies, a scumbuddy, etc. What do you say to whom you buddy, each day? Seems fraught. 3) One interesting point is that if there is a town mason, there's likely a scum mason. Given the setup description, I find it hard to believe in fact that this would not be the case. This makes the role doubly poisonous/useless for scum. As it stands now, there are 5 scum and 19 townies (25%). If all the masons claim, and scum claims with them, I'm betting it's closer to 50/50 ratio. Maybe 2 town, 2 scum. That's shit for scum, so they won't want to claim. Except that they might think if they don't claim those that do are going to get too much town cred and yadda yadda. 4) So why not have them claim? Sounds fine to me but I don't think it's necessary either. HOWEVER 5) If you are masoned for the day - you MUST claim. There is no reason not to claim that. And save your logs and communications, because that shit needs to end up in the thread eventually. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 03 2012 11:32 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm town. for that matter I'm Roger fucking Sterling, so suck my dick. oh man I hope bc didn't link role names and actual roles. kinda bet he did though | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
1) townie masons aren't much more useful to town than VTs are. I mean of course they are, it's just that if one claimed it's not like scum are going to be "yep gotta kill that guy now". Obviously the best part of their role is their ability to get information. That's what your role would be for. Talking to one person, grilling them for their thoughts, etc. How responsive are they, how carefully composed or not are their answers, that sort of jazz. All good info and the whole point of the role. 2) I think marvellosity playing scum mason would do great. I think most other players would suck balls at it. 3) Let's say 10 masons claim. Ok you have a point. Let's say 4 do. That's gotta be at least 3 town 1 scum, if not 2-2. 4 - 0 either way is silly. And frankly I think it's easier to find one out four than to find 5 out of 19 at the beginning. 4) What I think is that they can either claim or not claim and it doesn't really matter. They're going to be picking one player a day. Word is going to get out eventually. 5) What reasons can you think of not to claim that? Like, at all? You just say "Someone mason'd me." | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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+ Show Spoiler + Yo what? Of course you should claim if someone masons you. Mason isn't mason this game, your whole post with references to other games makes it seem like you think it's as powerful as normal. Masons aren't masons. They're interviewers or something. Claiming you're masond' just says "yo I was mason'd and I have a message log with another player". It's essentially having access to extra posts from someone, which means more for the thread to chew on when the time is right to share those logs. That's information. That's good. Your objection to it is weird - because it might be giving scum away that you're a town read of someone? Ok ok first off that's just silly. You and I have both been scum together and that sort of thing doesn't really factor in to night kill decisions. I don't think we ever talked about who town thinks is townie. We were more interested in who we could get lynched. Also what lazermanguy said. Secondly I don't understand your logic in getting there. town masons, if you're out there and reading this: Don't pick someone you think is really town and want to bounce your ideas off of. That's just silly as hell. Pick someone you're unsure of, so you get the chance to pick their brains in private. Or pick someone you think is scum, for the same reason. Your post also makes reference to people getting mason'd being scared of being influenced. WHAT. Who the hell in this game is actually scared of being influenced by someone that masons you? I know you aren't because I know you aren't. Show me someone who is. | ||
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talismania
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(again) also, what do you think of toad and VE? | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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On August 04 2012 00:11 Toadesstern wrote: highly depends on wether or not some people are trolling on purpose to look like stupid idiots to fish for reactions. that's fine, give me the different scenarios in your mind | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote: I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. can you walk me through your thought process a little more? It seemed like you were against masons being in public given your agreement with toad. So why did you risk outing yourself? | ||
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talismania
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On August 04 2012 00:39 talismania wrote: can you walk me through your thought process a little more? It seemed like you were against masons being in public given your agreement with toad. So why did you risk outing yourself? | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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On August 04 2012 01:08 VisceraEyes wrote: -.- Yes, I am a mason, and no, I didn't give Bugs the okay to out me. Toad you're insane bro. If you'll read my post again, I was AGAINST masons claiming, prplhz asked me what the point of them claiming was and I explained it to him. I'm screaming at bugs in a PM, I'll be back in a bit. Your thought process to please - why bugs etc. | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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+ Show Spoiler + I put things in spoiler tags when they aren't pertinent to the most important stuff happening in the thread. my reply to toad was about theory of the game setup, when at that point we already had actual game shit happening that was more important (wbg calling out VE). | ||
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talismania
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On August 04 2012 04:43 slOosh wrote: First, could you stop spoilering stuff unless they are big posts? Second, what is your actual read on Toad then? Did your discussion with him give you any insights? But I was being cute! My actual read of toad is "ugh". If I had to pick I'd say scum. It seems weird that I got the all red letter designation but I honestly can't remember sitting here now why. I think it was just because he disagreed with me about my thoughts on the masons. Oh and also it was that my post wasn't like my early game post in pyp et al. Which is true it wasn't but I was scum that game and I've kinda gotten lynched in two games since then for doing the same shit (and toad should know that from hosting ssb64) so no crazy plans or ideas from me this time. But I think that honestly you could say I was scum just as much as you could say VE was scum, yet toad has VE in alternating letters and me in all red. _________________ ps can people post their character names? I just want to satisfy my curiosity to find out who is in the game - I know that they don't mean anything since I'm VT with Henry Francis. Although I will LOL if scum has Ted Chaugh and Putnam, Powell, Lowe etc. And if WBG is veteran since Roger comes back from a heart attack in the first season. | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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On August 04 2012 04:11 Toadesstern wrote: Although the updated list would probably be: Talis Prplhz Zephirdd VE This is literally your only mention of him so no you didn't talk about him. You replied to him a couple of times but no other comment. So how'd he end up on your rainbow list? | ||
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talismania
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if it comes down to a policy lynch getting rid of grush is fine by me but I'd prefer waiting 12 more hours before rallying for it. BKE is also a policy lynch for me given that he's apparently following the thread close enough to post within 3 minutes of zorkmid leaving but not contributing at all. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 04 2012 08:16 Hier wrote: I am so impressed, Erandorr, you are so elaborate. Nobody even remotely suspects you of being mafia. You painted yourself to be a very big opponent of mason claims. + Show Spoiler [As seen here] + On August 03 2012 12:26 Erandorr wrote: YO talismania : wtf So lets see. Townie masons are kind of bad because all you can do is privatly talk to someone to get information and a feeling of not some random player, but someone you want to talk to more? Also explain the bolded part please. Why are you focused on how a town mason is looking trying to get information? Are you serious? Can you really think of no reason how a scum mason could be useful? Yeah those kind of speculations always work out and are totally valid and never before produced complete retard lynches! Okay. So would I be correct in saying that you think the mason role is so shitty that having it claimed wouldn't really help anyways, so why bother? If I misunderstood feel free to elaborate. Why? I can think of reasons not to claim that, actually. And just because you can do something doesn't really mean you should , right? But mafia either already knows who the masons are by receiving PMs, or sleep soundly at night knowing the masons are bickering among the townies in private, accusing each other of being scum behind each others' backs. Along comes WBG and gives away VE, to which you replied: WBG confirms his stance on revealing masons, and has already done so in practice with an attitude that would assure anyone that he would easily do it again. + Show Spoiler [Here] + On August 03 2012 21:10 Erandorr wrote: Sorry wbg, I am just too retarded to understand you. Within the same hour you mason WBG and get your role revealed. This warrants WBG's reveal of your role being anti-town; your role specifically, revealing VE was just "retarded", not necessarily anti-town. If you had filed your mason request before WBG revealed VE, he would have revealed both of you at the same time. BC was online at the time, as per his voting thread announcement, allowing for all of this to happen in rapid succession. You have abused WBG's rash decision making to your advantage, which I commend. + Show Spoiler [Time of BC's post] + On August 03 2012 21:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Please move all voting into the voting thread I just created Here Thank you Erandorr's reasonings: + Show Spoiler [Here] + On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote: I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. + Show Spoiler [And here] + On August 04 2012 01:37 Erandorr wrote: Its a completely anti town move to out people like that without thoughts on alignment or actually any information. They may have been context with VE, but I thought of it as trading my role for confirming wbg as scum. it is that easy. + Show Spoiler [Finally here] + On August 04 2012 01:40 Erandorr wrote: EBWOP: at that point I wasnt actually certain that wbg was scum at all. Something else I would like to point out that fucks over wbgs shitty logic even more, he pretended to give reasons on why he outed VE. Now what exactly were his reasons to out me , assuming he is town? He seems to think that I am town, so why do that to me? Suddenly you become the victim of something you, apparently, could not forsee, making you look town. You try to convince people that WBG's move was anti-town, while the move against VE "may have been context", or was just "retarded", but not anti-town yet. It doesn't even matter whether WBG is town or mafia! He could be scum, and you may have asked him to rat you out without you even being a mason. I don't know. But you, Erandorr, I am very impressed with. That was clever. I will strive to be like you in the future. Who are you breadcrumbing here? Pete Campbell? | ||
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talismania
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On August 04 2012 09:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Circumstances of the specific player in question resulted in a direct modkill rather then replacement. I will go into more detail upon game ending but until then please hold discussion of it. Any chance I can get that list of 24 char names I asked for? Just for my own amusement I know I won't be able to game the setup with them. Just curious to see who you put in. | ||
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talismania
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On August 04 2012 10:16 talismania wrote: Also do you mind sorting what his actual role was? Is there a reason that bit of the pm is missing? Smells Any chance I can get that list of 24 char names I asked for? Just for my own amusement I know I won't be able to game the setup with them. Just curious to see who you put in. Wild guess but smells like someone mason'd him, then he revealed his role pm or something to the guy, the mason turned him in to the host for cheating. | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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I honestly don't know why the logs between wbg and ve and between wbg and eran haven't been made public yet. Hell if I were mason I would invite all my masonees to a qt and then post the link in the thread if I got outed or outed myself. ______________ My thoughts: zephirdd I don't think is as scummy as I once thought he was. Think I already said this but fine to reiterate I suppose. I remember that his meta as town is actually to be scummy. Like in PickYourPoison I genuinely thought he was scum, and I was scum and knew he was town he was that scummy. In this game, the thing that made me suspicious was the way he leaped at opportunities to point out all the littlest inconsistencies in people's posts, even if they were plausibly inconsequential. I also didn't like how he hopped onto a wagon on me in a semi-desperate way. People were pressuring him and he's all "uh btw I made a case on talis!". On the other hand, what makes me think he's less scummy now is the way the wagon formed on him. In particular the post by count dropula raised all sorts of red flags with me. toad I think is maybe a little more scummy than I thought. Originally I thought he was scummy because of how he latched on to me without like really latching on to me. I mean I was all red letters before anyone else is and reading back, as I said before, it never really felt like it. I dunno it's strange. I also think it's funny how he accuses me of being scum because my first post wasn't like my normal first posts as town, and then he cites a first post I made as scum. I've played with toad before as mafia and the way he thinks about the game can be summed up in the QT here: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/2qFy6VgjSnW He's very opportunistic when it comes to lynches. He goes for low-hanging fruit. He will switch his top targets without much explanation (HiroPro - Navillus D1 PYP, Talis - WBG D1 here). He will push vet lynches (from the QT: "I'm trying to get people lynch into vets or into hiro.") with references to team balance. Here's an apropos quote from that thread on the topic: WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet Another thing I have in mind right now is balance. Do you really think a team like Rad proposed (Toad + Risk + Zephirdd?) is likely? Against Town-WBG, against Town-Rad, against Town-Prplhz, against Town-Kurumi? Those are all here playing mafia way longer than I am, especially Rad and WBG. WBG already flipped town. Do you honestly believe someone would make a team like that? That's btw the only reason I question Rad right now. Balancewise it would make a lot of sense if he's mafia but I can't find a thing that brings me to that conclusion except for this very thought. Old Post So he's my strongest scum read but it's still only like 65%. Usually I read setups completely different than he does and therefore we don't understand the other's opinions there. So that stuff is genuine enough. I'm also somewhat conflicted by the wbg thing because wbg doesn't look like a boyscout either. wbg uhhhh I dunno what happened there. strongandbig I still think is town (if you're not well done) and I respect his analysis alot, particularly the game theory post that he brought up that wbg himself made. also the part where wbg rehashed that "why would I out the masons when I could just tell my scum team" argument smelled wrong. That argument in general doesn't really fly for me. Scum team doesn't really gain anything from knowing who the masons are in private and therefore fucking with the thread by outing them doesn't make a difference for them. In fact it may give them an easier time taking shooting them because they don't have to worry about VE posting the logs at the last minute, revealing who he talked to and thus who would know he's mason or something like that. By the same token, outing them as town is understandable as well. Although I don't think I would have done so immediately but maybe that's just me. also also wbg voted for himself which is odd as hell. and whoever asked him what date his finals were might be on to something too. although it is the middle of summer so maybe that was a joke/reference. grush is worthless and if we're in a game together ever again and I'm vig I will policy shoot him. That said there's also like a hundred other lurkers in this game that would be fine for a policy lynch. Not to mention wbg himself as a policy lynch for voting himself I suppose. Other random thoughts: -Hassybaby is underperforming in my opinion. For some reason I expected more activity although I admit I don't know his meta. Somewhat suspicious though. -Countdropula seemed highly suspicious in the post he made about zephirdd as I mentioned before. felt like a bandwagon. Also I don't like inactive smurfs. -This game feels like a 12 person game yet supposedly there's 24 of you. The inactivity in general means this one is going to be pretty easy for scum. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 05 2012 02:58 Toadesstern wrote: just a random mention: It's 20:00 my time, that's CEST and there's a shitton of people who haven't voted yet. Get in here and vote. The guys from Europe won't be around at the deadline. Probably not even close to the deadline. So if you're waiting for something because it's still "so much time" until deadline: Stop it and get in here asap. The deadlines are horrible for europeans. Oh and @Talis: Keep cool about Zeph. I can actually prove I had him on my radar way before I even mentioned him the first time. WBG's not the only one who got masoned. actually I knew you were masoned the instant you said you thought you had said something before about zephirdd when you hadn't done so in the thread =P | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 04:37 slOosh wrote: Nevermind, I Talis still doesn't care about the game. ##Vote: Talismania if you want to vote for someone for not caring about the game, vote for BKE or xsebt or majugarzett or ghost403 or Glasse etc etc. if you want to vote for someone who is posting and active, make a case for why what they're posting is scummy. ps just because I don't immediately comment on the most current affairs doesn't mean I'm not reading it and getting to it eventually. pps you don't think it's interesting that glasse just ninja-voted? | ||
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talismania
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love you too! how nice of you to vote for me without once mentioning me in your entire filter! | ||
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talismania
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Completely cool with you? | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 04:46 wherebugsgo wrote: Sorry to BC and those players who aren't playing terribly (notably VE slOosh and Zeph) but I actually don't care about being modkilled given that it will stop the stupid discussion about mr being scum. Look, Roger. May it's time for you to take an acid trip and get past this gloomy phase. | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 04:48 Toadesstern wrote: kind of, although I'd slightly prefere prplhz's name in there. You're a fan of voting without posting, then? Good solid play, in your book? | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 04:48 slOosh wrote: talismania has shown 0 interest in relevant thread matters and is picking at useless information. The fact that he is active and posting is actually a strike against him because it shows that he has the time / effort but is investing it in irrelevant matters. oh I figured it out you masoned dropula or dropula masoned you. | ||
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talismania
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starting to doubt my read on toad. Well it depends. If none of wbg prp or I are scum and toad is then he's free to do whatever, including consolidating on me later if he wants. | ||
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talismania
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so we're up to four masons total? Maybe 5 if I'm right about sloosh/dropula? | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 05:13 wherebugsgo wrote: You thinking a difference in opinion makes someone scum = terrible. None of the things you mentioned are remotely bad in the first place. In all seriousness your fatalism is troubling. I know I tried getting myself lynched in your game because I had family coming into town and an exam and all sorts of stuff about four days after the game started and I figured I might as well just bus my teammates or get bussed by them and let them win it in that case. Is this what's going on with your exam situation? | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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I haven't heard a response from BC yet but if WBG keeps his vote on himself I don't see why anyone else should vote for him. He will be modkilled and maybe worse for breaking the rules of the game, so there's no point to vote for him if he's not going to change his mind. In fact, WBG you might as well just quit the game if that's how you feel. Getting yourself lynched/modkilled wastes town's time, and if you want to help town by removing yourself as a distraction, then quit and town get get on with lynching me or prp or whatever. | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 06:07 slOosh wrote: I understand where you are coming from, and if that's general town consensus then maybe it is best if WBG died so we clear up the air. I would disagree with that but that doesn't accomplish anything, namely getting the lynch I want in prplhz or talismania. So between you and me let's talk D2 lynch. talismania has outed Toad's masons (and I don't think the Toad claimed them prior), and has called out a potential mason tie between me and countdropula. Do you find him guilty of scum on those grounds? And thoughts on prplhz' general play thus far. lol how could I have outed his masons if I didn't know they exist? Toad posted "the two people who masoned me..." and that's how I knew. Who's paying attention to the thread, hmm? :-) also, will you state for the record that dropula and you are not mason-linked? Because it seems like a plausible reason for why he ninja-voted me at the timing that he did, without EVER MENTIONING MY NAME ONCE IN THE THREAD. | ||
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talismania
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Yeah I don't think he'll quit either. He IS breaking the rules right now and we need a word from our host to clarify how that is going to be handled. WBG I'm sure didn't know that rule was different this game, but if he's going to get a 3-game ban for this then I imagine he should feel compelled to put his vote elsewhere. | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 06:37 slOosh wrote: No names, but the fact that he is drawing attention to that you got masoned, when I have no recollection of you saying that (if you did then I missed it). It's like seeing someone act like detective and pointing it out to everyone in thread. You also missed the post like five posts before this one where I said that you missed it. But what do I know I don't care about the game and am not paying attention. Also, no comment on dropula? If you're not masoned with him, do you have another explanation for why he voted for me when he did with absolutely no comment? Are you ok with that? ___________ and of course, prp is fine with me so I'll go ahead and vote him. | ||
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On August 05 2012 06:58 Toadesstern wrote: jackpot. Got another mafia for today in case Zeph is town. Semi-agree with this. Hier, how closely have you been following the thread? | ||
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We really really really need some host clarification here: Will WBG be modkilled for voting for himself? Will other votes count for WBG in that case? | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 07:05 Hier wrote: Nobody here is out to prove they are town, it being impossible. Instead people are speculating on who is most likely to be mafia. So slOosh, prplhz has done nothing for me to think he is town, but I disagree that he is the scummiest player here right now. So who is the scummiest player right now? Toad? | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 07:28 strongandbig wrote: why does town erandorr do it? it's bad play either way imo. He claims it's because he wanted to confirm what wbg would do because he was suspicious of him. I agree with you and don't think any of it is clearcut. Also more interested to hear how jinglehell sees it. | ||
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talismania
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+ Show Spoiler + ok bc refused to give me the names of characters in the game. But there aren't that many characters in mad men so I thought why not just make my own little setup for fun. We'll see how much of this ends up being right, if at all: 1 Primary characters 1.1 Don Draper - Vigilante (for firing people) or Townie Miller (because he isn't who he says he is) 1.2 Peggy Olson - Medic 1.3 Pete Campbell - Mafia 1.4 Betty Francis (Betty Draper) - Townie Mason? 1.5 Joan Harris (Joan Holloway) - Medic 1.6 Roger Sterling - Veteran 2 Supporting characters 2.1 Trudy Campbell - Townie 2.2 Bert Cooper - Townie Mason 2.3 Ken Cosgrove - Townie Mason 2.4 Harry Crane - Townie 2.5 Bobby Draper - Townie 2.6 Gene Draper - Townie 2.7 Megan Draper - Townie Mason 2.8 Sally Draper - Townie 2.9 Henry Francis - Townie 2.10 Michael Ginsberg - Townie 2.11 Paul Kinsey - Townie Miller 2.12 Duck Phillips - Mafia 2.13 Lane Pryce - Detective 2.14 Stan Rizzo - Townie 2.15 Sal Romano - Townie 2.16 Freddy Rumsen - Townie 3 Other characters 3.1 Allison - Townie 3.2 Joey Baird - Townie 3.3 Jimmy and Bobbie Barrett - Mafia 3.4 Glen Bishop - Townie Miller 3.5 Helen Bishop - Mafia 3.6 Ida Blankenship - Townie 3.7 Andrew and Dorothy Campbell 3.8 Bud and Judy Campbell 3.9 Tammy Campbell 3.10 Émile and Marie Calvet 3.11 Carla 3.12 Dawn Chambers 3.13 Ted Chaough - Mafia 3.14 Toni Charles 3.15 Cynthia Cosgrove 3.16 Jennifer Crane 3.17 Midge Daniels 3.18 Anna Draper 3.19 Abe Drexler 3.20 Suzanne Farrell 3.21 Lee Garner, Sr. 3.22 Lee Garner, Jr. - Mafia 3.23 Father Gill 3.24 Francine Hanson 3.25 Greg Harris - Mafia 3.26 Conrad Hilton - Vigilante? 3.27 Gene Hofstadt 3.28 William and Judy Hofstadt 3.29 Hollis 3.30 Gail Holloway 3.31 John Hooker 3.32 Edna Keener 3.33 Gloria Massey 3.34 Rachel Menken 3.35 Faye Miller 3.36 Katherine Olson and Anita Olson Respola 3.37 Phoebe 3.38 St. John Powell - Mafia 3.39 Rebecca Pryce 3.40 Robert Pryce 3.41 Joyce Ramsay 3.42 Lois Sadler 3.43 Danny Siegel 3.44 "Smitty" Smith and Kurt Smith 3.45 Jane Sterling 3.46 Margaret Sterling 3.47 Mona Sterling 3.48 Brooks Stanford Hargrove 3.49 Bethany Van Nuys 3.50 Tom and Jeannie Vogel 3.51 Arnold Wayne 3.52 Adam Whitman 3.53 Archie Whitman | ||
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 08:07 BroodKingEXE wrote: This sort of stuff needs to come after the game. Ive so far found your posts to be sub-optimal town play. At this point Im against a prphlz for the reasons that his case had merit and he has been afk for a long time. In the past this is how bandwagons on Day 1 have started. Im examining those who have been throwing around their votes so far. 1) It's just a little side-game, like sidebets in poker purely for my own amusement. 2) I've so far found your posts oh wait I haven't found any of your posts because you haven't made any | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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On August 05 2012 08:17 BroodKingEXE wrote: You're going to try and nail me for real life issues? GL. My description of your filter is asking BC for the name list and if WBG will be modkilled for self-voting. I ain't doing no "nailing". Just can't resist a cheap shot :-) | ||
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talismania
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so who was prp? I can play my sidebet game if people's char names are revealed =P | ||
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1) Medics protect sloosh tonight. If I were mafia I would kill him. He's always Captain America with the town, gathering votes together, keeping things on track. He's active and has generally solid analysis. Plus he's on me, so him dying makes it easy to push my lynch, and then boom two active townies are down the drain. So protect him. 2) Logs, bitches. VE we need yours with WBG. Toad you have promised to post yours pre-dawn as well. Sloosh and dropula, no need to hide anymore. Other things uh dunno. I have a hunch glasse is one of the people masoned with toad at the moment. I think all the latecomers to the game should come up with something original to say. | ||
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On August 05 2012 10:38 Hier wrote: Silly talismania, directing medics at night? Town aligned players aren't supposed to play like very inexperienced mafia players. Fix your wording quickly before anybody sees. No. Protect sloosh, end of story. | ||
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Deliberately needling? You very well know I posted the reasoning before. What are your thoughts on my alignment? | ||
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How about toad? | ||
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And his vote on prp, which followed with no comment. The answer is likely that he's mason'd with someone, my bet is sloosh based on his vote patterns and vote timings. | ||
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On August 03 2012 03:02 Synystyr wrote: Yay it's started! GL HF to everyone, I'm really excited about this ^_^ I know we all told you before the game that if you don't post a lot we'll lynch you. You are doing that classic thing where you're "really excited" and then proceed to make two more posts for the entire day phase. What's up? | ||
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On August 03 2012 19:43 Toadesstern wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 03 2012 19:25 prplhz wrote: @Toadesstern Could you explain that post? First you write random letters in red and then you ask me "if you had to make different groups" which I don't understand at all. I don't put people in "vet" groups, there are people who have established meta behavioral patterns and who should be watched closely (or not watched closely) if they deviate, but there isn't any player in this game who has a reputation for single handedly ruining scum teams on a regular basis. Yeah when I posted that I read the thread the first time and colored names the way I thought about them when reading through. Actually if VE were to be someone else than VE his name would completly red and nt just semi red because VE does some STRANGE things from time to time. Anyways, copy & paste here I come: + Show Spoiler [VE] + (Pregame!): clicky! I'm joking around, he picks up the joke, Marv does so as well but VE isn't getting that Marv's just joking around when it was preeeetty obvious. Seems like he's nervous to me? Or was that some kind of anti-joke I'm not getting?  Clicky! Looks kind of try-hard to me. Obviously Zeph is fooling around or at least (if he's mafia) trying to make it look like he's carelessly fooling around. I doubt this honestly was an attempt to get a random lynch. It would be fine if VE pointed that out but the 2nd paragraph is weird. Why does he have to rub that in everyone's faces? "LOOK GUYS I DON'T WANT TO RND-LYNCH BECAUSE THAT's BAD". No shit sherlock. Yet he feels the urge to tell everyone about that. Looks to me like someone desperatly trying to get townie-points. But this is VE, he does weird shit every time so idk... Clicky! Big shiny text about how masons should claim. I totally disagree with him. It was a desaster in L. We lost a complete cycle, got no advantage, everyone eneded up being paranoid because obviously one group (pro-claim or anti-claim) had to be mentally retarded or scum to be stupid enough to not agree with ones self conclusion according to everyone in the game. Clicky! The big thing, with multiple [big]'s and in his most recent post was "MASON CLAIMS". Not "MASONS CLAIM MAYBE?" or something else, it was Mason claims. Now he proceeds to tell people he doesn't think it's a good idea for masons to claim and only wanted to talk about the idea? The fuck? Talis on the other hand is a guy who usually ends up posting what he thinks about the game d1 in an honest way, no matter of alignment. Remember PYP? Talis was the guy who told people to encrypt their shit. He's the kind of guy that thinks about the set-up ahead of time and then proceeds to post his thoughts about it no matter of alignment. I think he genuinely believes in what he posted, but what he posted is incredible stupid. So he either didn't think this trough or he thinks it's best to change his "conclusion" in some kind of way. What he posted makes little to no sense to me and that feels off because as mentioned I'm pretty sure he usually means what he posts d1 no matter of alignment. [b]Still making notes about everything and I'm at talis's post right now, so that's why I had to improvise something right now :p Re-reading the thread while I have the thread to myself at night and noticed this. I actually think the whole post is pretty townish but do you mind posting these notes (assuming you take them on your computer)? At least up to that point in the game, if you don't want to reveal later notes that give away your mason friends or whatnot. | ||
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On August 04 2012 01:38 VisceraEyes wrote: Because I'd rather hunt for scum than defend myself, so I masoned a veteran in as a shortcut to establishing my innocence with him if he's town so he can smack down anyone (Toad) who thinks I'm scum for stupid-ass reasons. Also if he's scum, I wanted a private line with him in case he felt like telling me all about it in PMs. So far he hasn't. :/ Him instantly outting me wasn't something I'd considered. I figured he'd talk to me about it first. I have a long way to go in understanding Bugs' play. Want to follow up on this more... this was really your thought process in picking bugs? I want to get someone to protect me? you say that you'd "rather hunt for scum" yet I don't see any scumhunting from you after this. Furthermore, 1) your logs with wbg please. (PMs too) 2) why are you playing tighter and less actively? I'm used to reading games of you as a fast-paced loose townie. This feels different -- restrained. | ||
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On August 05 2012 03:16 CountDropula wrote: I really think the most important issue for us right now is getting people active. Were giving mafia too much space to hide. Nevertheless, I'm voting wbg right now though that can change. For sure watching zeph though, but I need a better case. quoting for fans of irony everywhere | ||
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On August 05 2012 06:14 Hopeless1der wrote: I absolutely don't want to mislynch so I'm all for consolidating my vote. On wbg. perhaps I'm missing something due to not knowing his meta at all, but that part of the discussion went right over my head. Based on what I've seen in this game, I think he's town. It was a strange play to immediately out masons without telling them, but I don't think it can be conclusively anti-town. Creating sub-par targets for KP is the biggest benefit I see. Right now that seems to leave Grush, Talis and prplhz for current lynch candidates (of people I'd be willing to lynch). I don't know what grush is, but everyone seems happy to let a vig take care of him if we have one and his death doesn't give us anything to go on other than perhaps a quieter environment to play. I don't think he's worth wasting a lynch on today. Talis has been undoubtedly more active than prplhz, but about as useful in the active discussions of the thread. He posts requesting reads from other people without contributing any of own. His filter contains many posts pertaining to setup questions (i.e. more than once) and in general it looks like he's skirting the sidelines of the conversations. Despite his relative activity, I don't really know who he might vote for or who he is really suspicious of anymore. Prplhz got some vote pressure done early on, and has since disappeared into hangover land. I really don't see how this is considered so very scummy, and I don't see enough of a case to justify voting for him yet. Still, he's scummier than bugs so I may end up switching my vote to avoid wbg's lynch. ##Vote: talismania were there others you were willing to lynch? what about people you were unwilling to lynch? | ||
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On August 05 2012 11:08 talismania wrote: Deliberately needling? You very well know I posted the reasoning before. What are your thoughts on my alignment? | ||
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toad has moved from scummy to townie in my head. many small things that suggest more effort than I see him putting in as scum. VE I think is scum both from his attitude, his lack of promised scumhunting, and the reason he picked for voting me. Hassybaby I think is scum for being too cautious sounding and not actually contributing novel stuff. He also gets baited by my setup talk. xsebt is default scum in my mind until he does something besides show up and make one incredibly wishy-washy post near deadline. wbg has an outside chance of being scum and wanting to sacrifice himself for some reason but I actually think he's more likely to be town. strongandbig and jinglehell both need to stop digging their tunnels and talk about other stuff for a while. jingle in particular has moved from town to neutral for his odd persistence. hopeless1der makes scummy posts but overall seems townie to me. Like his post composition soudns like scum, but what he's doing seems townlike. In particular the part where he said he was going to check into zephirdd and then he actually did. synystyr I think is scum until proven innocent for his excitement/activity discrepancy. I have my eye on glasse/dropula even though both are sort of loosely in my neutral/town category in my mind. I'm eager to see their promised activity in the future. From glasse, his promised read on toad. And from dropula, living up to this call to action for a more active thread. I think that's it, time for bed. | ||
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1) Forget WBG. If he wants to play, he'll play and we can go from there. If he wants to die, he'll vote for himself again and get modkilled. 2) Something I realized yesterday when my making my fake setup: scum got to pick their own roles. This isn't that useful yet given that all four known masons (VE, Erandorr, Toad, and Hassy) are people who conceivably would want to have the mason role. Actually there's a third thing now that I'm thinking about it, 3) DTs! Please strongly consider checking into one of VE/Hassy. Or if you don't agree with me, at least check one of the masons | ||
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Respond to this please: On August 05 2012 17:16 talismania wrote: Want to follow up on this more... this was really your thought process in picking bugs? I want to get someone to protect me? you say that you'd "rather hunt for scum" yet I don't see any scumhunting from you after this. Furthermore, 1) your logs with wbg please. (PMs too) 2) why are you playing tighter and less actively? I'm used to reading games of you as a fast-paced loose townie. This feels different -- restrained. | ||
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Hassybaby That goes for you too. Let's see your game notes :3 | ||
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On August 06 2012 03:08 Toadesstern wrote: I think I already posted enough information so far. Some of my notes are already in the thread. Read the initial post I did about VE? Those lines in the spoiler where directly copy & pasted. Read the log between Eran and myself? When I explained why I consider him to be town, that's directly from my notes. So there's stuff in the rest of your notes that you don't want seen yet? Why? (Genuine question I can think of legitimate reasons) If you're just worried about clutter there's always spoiler tags. | ||
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VE still waiting to hear you explain on your reasons for picking WBG: On August 06 2012 03:09 talismania wrote: Ok thanks VE but can you expand on your thought process for picking bugs? Like you really wanted to make a friend to defend you so that you could focus on scumhunting? That was your motivation? | ||
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Biosc all I see in your filter is reactive posts. What are you reads? | ||
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On August 05 2012 21:00 XsebT wrote: I agree that countdropula's voting pattern and reasoning during d1 is pointing towards scum. He is all over the place with his accusations. Lazermonkey's analysis points this out quite well. Talismania, I was too inactive during d1, so a "default scum" accusation is probably in its place. If you keep having concerns, just ask me more direct questions. I'm not quite able to keep up with you guys when it comes to posting. I will be brief and to the point when posting. That said, I don't know why you would throw out so many scum accusations so early on, while already in the spotlight with wbg from d1. You should fear for your own survival in this game. If you're town, I consider the accusations a bad move. Direct question then: Who do you think is scum and why? | ||
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On August 06 2012 04:06 BroodKingEXE wrote: I start reading the thread about 3 hours before the vote, when the was basically 4 people active. Im not expecting a flood of people to switch last minute -_-. The post was made more to explain why I didn't like the two lynch canidates. Is Erandorr still your only scumread? | ||
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Motives for my questions: 1) I notice something strange/scummy that I want to track down 2) I want people that I think might both be scum to talk about each other 3) I want inactive people to get more active 4) I want people to post more and more reads There's never a plan. It's just turn over as many rocks as possible and see what I find. | ||
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In response, 1) I asked erandorr that I think because he came in and started distracting the thread from prp's case on glasse and I was wondering if there was anything to it. I was suspicious of toad as well at that point but I can't remember why I asked that specific question. 2) Well those were my thoughts at the time lol. I've changed my mind on zephirdd, moved from scum to neutral on glasse, and from town to neutral leaning scum on strongandbig. oh and my mind is changed on toad too. the way he played his mason role is really cunning if he's scum. Not out of the question for him but enough to give me pause. 3) Yeah don't make much of the character-fishing. I was half-convinced it would lead somewhere (always looking for shortcuts) but more was chasing the glory of calling the game from people's names. Doesn't seem like that will happen though lol. 4) Well I don't think all my questions are "tunneling" since tunneling is like digging one hole and staying in it. I'm digging lots of holes all over the place. What's wrong with that anyway? 5) Sloosh is a townie boyscout. that's his meta and he's playing to it. He may be scum I guess but I doubt it. He's active and corrals people towards lynches. If he's town, he should be a highpriority target. I also want him protected out of self-interest since if he dies people are going to push my lynch and that's going to be really annoying to deal with. | ||
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On August 06 2012 05:16 JingleHell wrote: I love how the people who railroaded votes onto prphlz are out for blood from anyone who thought Erandorr was a better read. Yo can you poke your head out of the erandorr tunnel and give some other scumreads? | ||
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disagree about DTs not checking masons. We have four masons. No one else is claiming being masoned so either scum didn't use theirs or they're in the four. What's wrong with DT check? It also guarantees avoiding millers and GFs. | ||
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On August 06 2012 10:22 Glasse wrote: Only 2 people died, interesting... You have the most suspicious posts and post timing when it comes to deadlines I swear. But to state the obvious instead of implying it: Did anyone take a vig shot last night? I kinda doubt that scum shot grush. I think they double-stacked sloosh. Also, I was roleblocked. | ||
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On August 05 2012 03:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay, everyone STOP. This lynch on WBG is not happening. Having PMed with him, I'm NOT of the opinion that he's scum and I think we should focus on other, actually scummy candidates. You guys are WIFOMing this lynch to shit. I fully support a talis lynch upon rereading. He literally asked for a NAMECLAIM from everyone guys. LITERALLY. ##Vote: talismania I think Bugs is town. I don't want to lynch him. slOosh, you in particular I want to hear more reasoning from. Your only gripe with him seems to be his read on prplhz - so...because you disagree with his read he's scum? Really? I don't like a grush lynch today either - it feels like a copout. But I totally can see a town Bugs wanting to lynch grush today. Grush was a key factor in the scum victory in LVI, for the same shit he's exhibiting now. However, I agree that we should give our vigs a chance to take care of him. We should be aiming for people we specifically think are scum, and for me that's not wherebugsgo. _____________ also VE I will respond to you in a bit but can you please give me your opinion on strongandbig? | ||
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Since you like direct questions, which accusations, specifically, do you find bullshit and why? | ||
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On August 06 2012 14:58 XsebT wrote: Especially the list that I responded to last time. There I also asked you to ask direct questions instead. The best you could come up with is "who do you think is scum". Well, Ive now made that quite clear. Be more specific. I made a list calling a lot of people suspicious for various reasons. Spell out what in that list really caught your eye. Do you agree or disagree with what I said about those specific people? Is it the fact that such a list was there in the first place? Have you read my filter at all? The direct question I asked you IS the best question that anyone can come up with. It's the essential question common to all mafia games, ever. Furthermore, Why is it your attitude in the first place that you can't be bothered to say who you think is scum or do anything without someone asking you a direct question in the first place? | ||
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On August 06 2012 15:13 XsebT wrote: That he was role blocked? Thats a cute story and i case of it being true, horrible mafia play. To clarify, are you suggesting I'm lying about being roleblocked? | ||
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On August 06 2012 15:27 XsebT wrote: Yes, in calling you out as mafia I also suggest that you lie. Jeez lol. That list came at a time where your main hope was to change our focus from you. Though you were fortunate enough to not be in the main spotlight due to other peoples fuck ups. Take this as a slight compliment. Because listing without much basis at such an early time in the game as it was, would be plain stupid as a townie. Ok cool this makes you town I think as a scum player should know the correct argument for why I would still be scum. A scum player should try to link me to the night kill of sloosh in some way, but xsebt completely ignores this. Basically scum knew that by roleblocking me, they would have a roleblock claim from me in public. Therefore they have come into today prepared to make the following arguments: 1) That my repeated calls for medics to protect sloosh were a gambit to distance myself from the NK, which was double-stack and 2) That by having the scum roleblocker roleblocking within the scum team I could claim RB'd without fear of couterclaim (they could also argue that sloosh was RB'd or something too) and that I did this to further get towncred, which they would argue I needed after D1. Xsebt hasn't thought this through at all, unless he's being cleverly dumb. I suppose it's still possible that scum were completely unaware about RB notifications but I find that unlikely. In any event, I'm going to chalk xsebt up as misguided town. | ||
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Yes I still think it was a doublestack and I think grush was vig'd. We'll see when other people post if it gets claimed or not. On the last point I'm talking from the perspective of the mafia team trying to call me mafia so I'm talking as if I'm mafia. It's convoluted sounding but really pretty simple: mafia can RB a member of their own team, say a goon or mason or whatever. Then that person can claim RB'd, for some weak towncred. Mafia in RBing me knew I would be notified, but weren't worried about it making me look townie because they knew they would be able to argue that there was just an intra-mafia RB on me because I would want towncred. They pair that argument with all my stuff about protecting sloosh as further evidence that I want towncred. etc etc. | ||
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On August 06 2012 10:00 VisceraEyes wrote: My take on talismania is that he's spent entirely too much time trying to figure out who the blue roles are and entirely too little time talking about what he finds suspicious or who he finds suspicious. Posts like this: lead me to believe that he's trying to justify his lack of having an opinion of....like anyone. He just goes after whomever is the flavor of the page asking inane questions and then does not give his opinion or any conclusions he's drawn. What I find to be the most suspicious however is his unrepentant attempt at rolefishing. Like...come on guy. COME ON!!! It doesn't get any more anti-town than trying to fish for information about everyone's roles. Yet talismania has repeatedly asked for nameclaims from the town, or asked if people are breadcrumbing X, or referring to people by their claimed character name. It's all BS and I want it out of my town. One of the hallmarks of scum play is that they tend to be lazy when making their cases. Townies go through the thread sometimes multiple times. Townies read filters. Scum latch onto one or two things, usually things that just happened recently in the thread, and make a case out of it. The end result is that they make cases for the wrong reasons. This what just happened with VE, in my opinion. VE states "...lead me to believe that he's trying to justify his lack of having an opinion of....like anyone." How can this be possible? Even xesbt, who isn't paying that much attention to the thread near as I can tell is calling me scum BECAUSE of the accusations and opinions I've had. VE ignores posts like these... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=20#386 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=20#399 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=27#538 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=29#563 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=35#696 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=37#726 ...in which I very clearly am stating plenty of opinions on many different players in the game. Yet VE says I don't have any? This is strong evidence number one that VE did not even bother to take the time to check my filter before writing his post. VE also writes "He just goes after whomever is the flavor of the page asking inane questions and then does not give his opinion or any conclusions he's drawn." Yet this is entirely inaccurate. In fact, sloosh, from whom he borrows the phrase "inane questions" initially thought I was scum because I was asking questions that were IRRELEVANT to the thread, certainly not pertaining to the "flavor of the page". VE got it backwards! And if he had checked my filter and re-read the thread, wouldn't he see all those questions I asked last night? Yeah no one was in the thread but me. That was me methodically going through the entire thread, picking out little nuggets of interest to pursue further. It clearly was not just asking questions about the "flavor of the page". This is strong evidence number two that VE did not really even think that hard about what he was accusing me of. He just rehashed it from memory, combining the phrase "inane questions" from sloosh along with the idea toad already posted that I just ask questions and don't necessarily follow through with conclusions. Finally, VE writes "What I find to be the most suspicious however is his unrepentant attempt at rolefishing. Like...come on guy. COME ON!!! It doesn't get any more anti-town than trying to fish for information about everyone's roles. Yet talismania has repeatedly asked for nameclaims from the town, or asked if people are breadcrumbing X, or referring to people by their claimed character name." There are several interesting observations here. First, I never really rolefished. I character-fished. True at one point I sort of wondered whether BC had made the characters true to the show. I mainly pursued it for my own amusement, to see if I was right. If a lot of things started lining up, I would feel like a genius. Also, it's interesting that he can't really bring himself to say why I would do this is as scum. He dances around the issue, calling it anti-town and saying later that he wants me "out of his town". This is very different from saying that something is scummy. And this is the thing that makes him "most suspicious" of me! Truth is - and he should realize this - what the hell would my motivation be for blatantly asking for people's character names as scum? I guess I'm capable of it but even I can't imagine myself doing something that puts me in the spotlight like that as scum. Second, this statement reveals in fact that he HAS been paying attention to my posting, at least early on. He remembered this obscure post I made about Hier: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#455 He also apparently references this post, which is the only one I can find in my filter where I refer to someone as their character name: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=29#569 So what gives? I think he clearly was paying attention early in the game, otherwise he doesn't remember those posts. My guess is he's continued to pay attention as the game goes on (he responds to my questions from last night, for instance). Yet when it comes to building a case on me, it's as though he's entirely ignorant of my filter except for little portions relevant to the character thing. The reason? He's not a townie seriously considering me as scum. He never would make the statements he does in this post if he were. He was simply rehashing what he thought were things other people had said, but ended up getting them a bit wrong. The case is lazy and unresearched, typical of scum play. I think VE is scum, and I think his case on me exemplifies why. There are some other reasons too. 1) His meta is off. Even comparing to bureaucracy he seemed to be his normal loose self. (he also makes much better cases there). 2) I think he was telling the truth about masoning WBG to some extent. I think he did want to prove his innocence with WBG. But I think it's because he's scum, not a townie looking to establish their innocence with a vet so they can focus on scumhunting or whatever reason he gave. 3) If he were scum he would definitely want the mason role, so that at least fits. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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I kinda agree with you on wbg. I have a twisted hunch that wbg is just trying to see how much stuff he can get away with as scum. The case on xsebt was far too facile and seemed subpar. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 00:56 CountDropula wrote: Zephirdd, it's time. I'm calling you out. This post is not me bashing you as a player. I'm picking up on general trends in your play and and using our interaction as an extended example. It's written in the second person because I'm confident you will crack under the pressure. You know this too, don't you?  Zeph. You don't think I read your previous games before our confrontation on d1? You were all about facts and concrete arguments in normal mini mafia 2. So when I tried acting level-headed and nooby (the profile of someone I think your town-self would be comfortable with) to gauge if you were the same town Zeph from that game, you acted in the exact opposite way town Zeph would have. Everything you have against me is against me personally. Little did you know, I was the one baiting YOU. Your first posts looked suspicious, but I wasn't sure yet, so I tried to elicit some kind of response. You then validated my suspicion. You blinked first and outed your "plan" to the thread. You weren't being patient. Your goal was not to build a case. Your goal was to make an excuse for the sake of your appearance. This whole game, all your posts have done is feed the chaos. You don't focus. Examples. You are saying nothing. Ok now this is interesting. Calling town reads a scummy move, yet posting town reads. Your play is getting worse. This last post is swiss cheese. Full of holes. This is such a complete contradiction of your town play that it's absolutely ridiculous. Here is a post from normal mini mafia II. No compulsion to go crazy in response to suspicion because you are town in this game. In Mad Men, you say that nothing is concrete because you don't want it to be. You thrive on chaos. And another one from normal mini. Note the importance he places on facts. Day and night. All you are posting in this game is speculative, your case against me is not complete and irrefutable - actually it's the opposite since its based on so little. Town Zeph would never have done this. This is expected from a lazy scum case. Same thing with that "minicase" on talismania. It's well below the standard of your previous town game. You voted me at 8.59 August 4. I had one post at the time. one. Ever since then you've been pushing me as scum. How can you draw a conclusion like that from nothing? You know something we don't, and you were trying to create a distraction from more relevant issues. If you respond with a crazy belligerent post you just lynched yourself. Honestly you are dead with any response you make, because you are so irredeemably bad at playing scum that you will make a mistake and I will pick you apart with it. Now who's the noob scum? Guys, don't bury this post. Please give it serious thought, cause I've got a really strong read on this guy. If I'm wrong about this, I deserve to be lynched. Get this guy into the spotlight and he will crack. Please. Lets lynch Zephirdd and start killing mafia. Ok so this stuff doesn't quite add up. If I follow, what you're saying is that in reading Zephirdd's posts, you thought he might be scum early on. You then went to research previous games of his. After researching it, you noticed that zephirdd was "comfortable" with people that acted "level-headed and nooby". So first question, 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? You then decided to lay a trap for him. You yourself would act level-headed and nooby by making a case against him, to see how he would respond. He then snaps back at you, and you call this scummy because he didn't wait to build a case on you with other information. Ok I follow that even though it's kind of a stretch. But this is where things go off for me You've laid a trap based on eliciting a particular meta-response He falls for it You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). Well ok let me think this through. Perhaps it still holds consistency. After all you are accusing zeph for being scummy by springing a trap too early. You had yours, but you didn't want to spring it yet because you wanted more time to build a case. I can sort of buy that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. | ||
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So you're scum too!? The excitement/activity test strikes again :-) Seriously though I can't be certain I'm just OMGUSing but the case you just made against me is bad for almost the same reasons VE's was bad. + Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 01:07 Synystyr wrote: Talismania is scum. He pushes this action to confuse town. If Sloosh dies in the night, it gives Talis tons of town cred because he said that medics should protect Sloosh. A little reverse psychology action too by claiming he would kill Sloosh if he were mafia. A hit on Sloosh appears to be be only negative for him and thus making him look innocent by association. He reflects heat off of his scum buddy and himself with this line. Many times throughout the thread, Talis gives WBG a onceover with a "probably town" read and then accuses someone new. Talis is scum with WBG and is trying to protect him. He also wants DTs to check other players other than himself/WBG to avoid being caught. He defends himself before anyone has even pointed a finger at him. This post feels like mafia bait to me, but is instead used so he can point fingers at the person who will make the argument and deflect heat off of him. With the death of Sloosh, it gives him an extremely concrete defense as a townie. Mafia team-roleblock him to make him look like a medic, then doublestack Sloosh in case of a medic. Talis' reasoning to medic sloosh was good, but other players like Toad, Erandorr and SnB come off as town to me and good candidates to be protected over sloosh in the night. There could have been two medics on Sloosh last night, but obviously that was not the case as Sloosh is dead. With that, Talis has everything to gain defensively and gives him a really powerful position to manipulate town as Mafia. His aggressive finger pointing without concrete evidence is his way of appearing town. I'm not buying it. ##Vote Talismana 1) The NK and my alignment is nothing but WIFOM. I mean, help me out other people in this game, but on the outside I wouldn't look at sloosh dying and go "yep that must have been talismania he was doing it for towncred". It could have been, but it just as easily could not have been. It's literally pure WIFOM. So why is this a central plank in your case? By the way - raise your hand out there if you saw the night kill and gave me a ton of town cred. Anyone? 2) Are you really making the argument that I'm scum because WBG is scum, and you're not voting for WBG because you think I'm more likely to be scum yet some of that is predicated on WBG being scum and and and That's why connection cases don't work until you have a flip. For the record, I don't really know what to make of WBG. At the moment, I'm nursing the idea (which you conveniently missed me posting) that actually be scum just trying to get away with as much as possible as a test. Then he can be all superior and yell at us in the endgame. Your DT point also shows you didn't seriously make this case. It's like VE all over again. Yes I said (for good reason) that I would like DTs to check VE and hassy, two of my strongest scumreads at the time. Then I realized after sloosh posted that DTs were just rolecops, not alignment cops so I rescinded everything I said about DTs. But you ignore that completely. And come to think of it my ignorance of how DTs work (as well as toad) is kind of an unintentionally strong town tell. Scum would all know exactly how DTs work because their GF gets to pick what role he appears to DTs, so they would have discussed that somewhat (or at least read the role description) amongst themselves. 3) This is seriously the exact same stuff VE did. I'm "defending myself before anyone has pointed a finger at me" with regards to being roleblocked and the night actions? Well I guess if you took that post in isolation and assumed it was the first post I made on the subject, then yes. But guess what? That wasn't my first post. That was a clarification post. The first post, which you must have seen is here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=43#850 And it's pretty clearly not me "defending myself before someone accuses me". No it's explaining why I think xsebt is likely to be town, because he seemed genuinely unaware of the correct scum argument. I was aware of the scum argument from daybreak, but there was no need to post it until then, when I think it's a very critical point to make as it directly speaks to this guy's alignment. You cherry-picked this case. What do you make of my case on VE? Does it look like scum wrote it or town wrote it? How and why? If you're going to call me scum, you're going to have to do it based on my whole filter. | ||
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On August 07 2012 01:12 JingleHell wrote: Don't forget that Talis has also been attacking anyone who goes after Erandorr, who somehow got away with mostly dismissing the cases that were made against him while he was helping lead a mislynch. Pretty please can you get out of the erandorr tunnel for just a little bit! You talk about no one else and it's starting to concern me. It sounds here like you're setting yourself up for a vote on me later... so what's your take on me? What about toad, who also thinks erandorr is town and actually led the mislynch? Why aren't you mentioning him? | ||
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I think you should mason me. We both think the other is scum, therefore our interactions should be of great value to the town. You can ask me a lot of questions, I can ask you a lot of questions. | ||
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My hunch is that scum has used their masons, and that they are VE and hassy. 2 scum, 3 town. Unless there's more grushes out there. | ||
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@hier: just read my posts for why I called for protecting sloosh. He is a town leader. He gets votes together and keeps discussion on track. Regardless of who he is pushing this is a good reason to get rid of him. But if mafia was convinced that I was an easy lynch (which I kind of think they were given that I think one of them is VE) then removing sloosh helps their cause, precisely because someone like you could say what you just said (or synystyr, for that matter). | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Removed per request of host - for full logs in text form see this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=57#1127 | ||
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On August 08 2012 01:33 VisceraEyes wrote: Talis we're done in PMs - I've wasted enough time in PMs and now people think I'm scum for it. No longer. How is this a town attitude, toad? On August 08 2012 01:50 VisceraEyes wrote: TBH I'm not sure - at first I thought he was town, but as the PMs dragged on it felt more like an inquisition - like his mind was made up already and that he was just like...gathering ammo or something. He never shared HIS thoughts on the people he asked about, simply asked me about them and then freaked out in-thread when I was a little late with response. I'm leaning town - just misguided, really really WRONG town. He writes this, but do you see it in the logs? He asked me about erandorr, I responded. I asked him about zephirdd after he brought zephirdd's name up... and nothing. If he had asked what I thought about zeph I would have gladly answered. He only showed interest in picking my brain about erandorr. The "people" I asked about? I only asked about one, and he never answered. I asked a grand total of two questions of him in PMs as they "dragged on". | ||
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On August 08 2012 03:02 Toadesstern wrote: yeah I didn't really like it. People have been telling him that VE needs to change his attitude as town in his most recent games a lot. I obviously haven't been in every game with him but those I saw people considered him to be a good policy lynch in he sticks with that attitude. So really, his meta being off is something I'd consider to be a towntrait. If he were mafia he had all the reasoning there is to just to the same kind of stupid moves he did the last couple of games. Saying you don't have an opinion is obviously an exaggeration but I would have said the exact same thing lol. You ARE asking questions nonstop and only rarely posting reads inbetween. No I don't count townreads as reads. If he were mafia he could as well want the GF role instead of the mason. He's usually someone who surives very long as mafia. The only thing that I consider to be true is that his bugs-mason was weird. His attitude is different even compared to bureaucracy, where he was town. He doesn't need GF role as mason. Mason IS GF for all intents and purposes when we only have rolecops, not alignment cops. And finally, the case he made on me was inconsistently lazy. He remembers fine details about my posts relating to character and flavor, but completely forgets everything else? I mean look at it, he was just rehashing what you said - he clearly did not read my filter before making the case. Why would a townie not even read my filter? | ||
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I don't really think he's mad, no. Do you? | ||
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VE, why support lurker lynch of MrZ/bioSC/synystyr and not hassybaby/BKE? | ||
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toad, I wish I could convince you. I think we might both be right, actually. I still can't shake the feeling that wbg is just fucking around, pretending like he didn't notice sloosh was killed etc. But I'm not ready to pull the trigger on that yet. VE you never answered why you picked the lurkers you said you would be comfortable lynching out of the total pool of lurkers... so why those three? | ||
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Whatever happened to your thoughts on xsebt and zephirdd? You said in PMs you were going to look into them yesterday. | ||
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On August 08 2012 06:40 Lazermonkey wrote: Pms? I was never masoned/mason XD. Don't think I said that I was to look into zephird yesterday and it's kinda low priority atm due to the amount of people already having accusations against them. I'd like to save eventual Xsebt lynch for some other day. He is at least posting stands and reads, although little. We will hopefully be able to judge him for more than his >1 page filter later. was talking to VE, your post intervened sorry for that. | ||
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On August 08 2012 08:06 VisceraEyes wrote: talis I'M NOT SCUM! Nothing is going to be clear because I'm not going to flip red! I'm going to flip Lane Pryce, Town Mason. Flip ACTUAL scum like Erand with me! Or clear out some of the background lurker noise, frankly I don't give a shit - but I'M town and I'M not going to flip red! If you're Lane then you should be fine with getting lynched. + Show Spoiler + Too soon? =P | ||
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On August 08 2012 10:10 VisceraEyes wrote: WHAT THE HOLY FUCK!?!?!? lol BC, did you forget to modkill some people? Like Hassy, BioSC if I remember correctly? | ||
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broodwarexe hier hopeless1der glasse mrzentor zephirdd These are the erandorr voters. At least two of them, probably three are scum. Maybe four but that would be pushing it. My thoughts: VE - obviously I still think he is scum, and he is. BKE - softdefended VE, active lurker, overly touchy when prodded earlier hopeless1der - every post of his reads scummy in that he only mentions current topics in the thread and he's overcomposing his posts. Still I give him small towncred for saying he was going to look into zeph and then doing it and backing down. I should probably examine that in thread context to see if there would be scum motivation to back down since the zeph wagon inflated and deflated rather rapidly hmmm. Ok aside from that piece of thinking out loud, he also just completely ignores me, his scumread from day one, today. Read his filter. glasse - borderline for me. he's just so obvious it can't be true. what was your reasoning for voting erandorr, again? I don't see a post from you about it in the thread. hier - semi borderline but I kind of read him as town. he was onto erandorr early enough anyway. mrzentor - town or crazy-stupid (stupid-crazy???) scum. lean town cautiously. zephirdd - town methinks. I guess I should reconsider that since I forget why I thought he was town though. _______________ the scum outside the erandorr voters? Assuming VE is scum and no one was bussing, I'd say hassybaby + wbg or something like that but I haven't thought that through all the way. | ||
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Vigilatnes: If you aren't modkilled (think BioSC might be one) then shoot VE. Rolecops: Check BKE. | ||
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On August 08 2012 10:42 Glasse wrote: When I voted, Erandorr had fewer votes than VE and I wanted to see how the votes would shift, if they even did, to possibly figure out who is scum. An easy way to find scum is to find out who just bandwagons. Be sure to enlighten us with your findings from this experiment! | ||
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Also VE I'm still open to chatting in PMs if you are! | ||
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On August 08 2012 11:01 Hier wrote: So let me get this straight. You want medics to protect only the people that voted for VE. You also want VGs to kill VE. Aren't you putting too many of town's eggs into the basket designated by you? What other basket should I put put them in? It's not like they're bound to do my bidding. | ||
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On August 08 2012 11:26 Hopeless1der wrote: @Talis To the "overcomposing", I'm not sure how this suggests my affiliation when considering the fact that I haven't even got a full page in my filter yet. I have been severely lacking in the activity department (which I intend to improve) and I've only really given input on the current topics. However, my keeping my thoughts in line with the thread keeps things focused instead of looking like I'm trying to shift suspicions or clutter the thread. Your point there could easily go either way to paint me as scum regardless. Further to the point of my focusing on the current train of thought, you were not in any way going to be lynched today and I sincerely doubt I would have made any impact trying to get a lynch started on you after having been so inactive. I read up on the thread and posted who I felt was scum. In the future I'll know that Eran just tunnels wbg blind all day. I plan to spend this evening reading through filters and mason logs to figure out what to think now. You're null right now, in case you were wondering. Excellent, I await the fruits of your labors this evening! It's 10pm pacific so you should be nearly completion. | ||
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VE contacted me after the lynch. Dunno entirely what to make of that. My gut reaction is that he was just gloating at surviving. I also find it an incredibly weird thing to say to someone you think is scum if you are town. Like, I would just keep up the charade of saying I found the scum suspect townie while pumping him for information. VE however doesn't even care to ask me any questions at all even when I give him the opportunity. Also VE, you still owe us your thoguhts on zephirdd, for like the 100th time. And hopeless1der it will be morning for you soon so please give us those thoughts! | ||
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On August 09 2012 01:32 Hopeless1der wrote: Townies need that info BEFORE they make decisions not after they already made them. And just because bugs is not as active as everyone would like him to be doesn't diminish the fact that what you posted makes you look bad. You're here! Summary of your thoughts following your read-through and nocturnal digestion thereof? | ||
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On August 08 2012 23:50 talismania wrote: @Lazer Don't vig bad townies. Dumb at this point. Vig people you think are scum. VE contacted me after the lynch. Dunno entirely what to make of that. My gut reaction is that he was just gloating at surviving. I also find it an incredibly weird thing to say to someone you think is scum if you are town. Like, I would just keep up the charade of saying I found the scum suspect townie while pumping him for information. VE however doesn't even care to ask me any questions at all even when I give him the opportunity. Also VE, you still owe us your thoguhts on zephirdd, for like the 100th time. And hopeless1der it will be morning for you soon so please give us those thoughts! Reposting this so that people actually read what VE wrote here... uh. What the hell is that supposed to mean? "so I can make up for my folly tonight" makes it sound like he's going to vig me but he's a mason LOL. | ||
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On August 09 2012 02:15 Hopeless1der wrote: That to me looks like VE is angry with you and wants you to pay for almost mislynching him. If you flip town, we'll be hard pressed to pick between him and bugs for who to lynch tomorrow after the whole eran-ve-bugs triangle. I don't know about the 'make up for my folly tonight'. I'm expecting an epic case near the deadline right now. tbh I'm expecting 3 or 4 cases right around the deadline tonight, plus the rest of the mason logs. what do you mean "if I flip town" and then "lynch tomorrow"? You know something about the NKs that I don't? | ||
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People. Stop being angry. I have no clue why anyone would ever get angry about some of the things you guys do. Well in some cases I suppose it's a decent scum tactic. Lots of emotion, fucks with the thread, etc. But if you're townie you should never get angry. Just don't. Also, you should never stop talking to someone in PMs. So, VE. I'm still here and would love to chat! :-) | ||
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What did you mean in your PM when you said " Thankfully, you weren't able to get me lynched so I can make up for my folly tonight. Don't even TRY to shoot me, medics will be all over my shit after this night. " | ||
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That said, the NKs are fairly illuminating. Especially solstice - he was killed primarily because he's a good townie and he was correct about VE. Solstice and I were interchangeable for those purposes, but I am spared because VE is committed to getting me mislynched (a reasonable play given that he thinks he can rely on xsebt and synystyr's votes if they're town). His push on zephirdd is there because he knows there's support for it from dropula at least I guess. Who the mafia are: VE hassybaby BKE other two are somewhere in hier, glasse, dropula, synystyr I think. My bet is hier glasse at the moment. _________________ In response to VE: He set a trap by not talking about zephirdd? Ok... I'm just following up on anything and everything you say because I think you're scum. You said you were going to look at him again, therefore I wanted to know if you followed through on that as scum tend not to. I don't know zeph's alignment for sure but I do lean town. _________________ VisceraEyes is scum. (A) He makes lazy cases that are unresearched. Not just against me, but also against erandorr and against zephirdd. Read what I wrote about his case on me yesterday. (B) He REFUSED TO KEEP IN CONTACT VIA PMs WITH SOMEONE (1) AND HE THOUGHT THAT THAT PERSON WAS SCUM (2). Let me expand on that further - so you're a townie in VE's shoes. You think maybe I'm scum and that I'm connected with zephirdd. Therefore you set a trap... by refusing to talk to me about zephirdd???? Why, if I'm scum, do I keep haranguing a townie to find out what his read is on my scumbuddy??????????? Why the fuck would I care about that if I were scum? Especially because in that scenario, I'm trying to lynch the guy I'm haranguing. So why would I give a shit about how good his reads are on other people in my scum team? Why would I call attention to that? No. If you're townie, and you're a mason, and you suspect that the guy you're masoned with is scum you PRESS him. You don't set traps by NOT talking about a potential scumbuddy of your target. You re-engage. Ask questions. To hammer this point home: WHY STOP TALKING TO SOMEONE YOU THINK IS SCUM? How can that possibly help? VE isn't afraid of being manipulated, I know that. So why, after he switches back to thinking I'm scum, does he show no interest in talking anymore? (C) I just realized that VE accidentally might have just trapped himself with this zephirdd thing. To explain: he is claiming that he ignored my questions about zephirdd because he thought I was scum, and wanted to see what happened. Let's look at the first assertion he makes: All Talismania was interested in during the WHOLE of our conversations was my read on Zephirdd. + Show Spoiler + Our whole conversation was about zephirdd? Please. Firstly: Over the course of those conversations, I was left with the feeling that he wasn't REALLY after information at all - that he was looking for something specific…something that I'd referenced earlier in the game. If by this you mean "after some negligible small talk about irc and skype", the course of our conversation was this: You: what do you think about erandorr Me: I'm looking into him but think he's town for the most part. You: yeah here's why I think eran is scum. also here are my other scumreads, which I'm giving to you completely UNPROMPTED. Me: Oh, I'd like to hear more about that zephirdd guy since you mentioned him earlier in the thread as well. How the hell do you go from that to getting that the entire conversation was building up to me asking about zephirdd? It wasn't. VE brought zephirdd's name up, unprompted. Not me. It gets better though. My follow-up question about zephirdd was sent on August 7, 8:29. His reply about giving him some time to get home came August 7, 12:47. Then my follow up question since he didn't say anything in that reply about zeph, then he goes cold in PMs. Despite this, he makes the following post in the thread: On August 08 2012 01:50 VisceraEyes wrote: TBH I'm not sure - at first I thought he was town, but as the PMs dragged on it felt more like an inquisition - like his mind was made up already and that he was just like...gathering ammo or something. He never shared HIS thoughts on the people he asked about, simply asked me about them and then freaked out in-thread when I was a little late with response. I'm leaning town - just misguided, really really WRONG town. He's also posted that he's done in PMs. So he thinks I'm wrong town - yet when I ask him to just follow up on his read about zephirdd (after this post) he does nothing as a trap? How does that make sense? Like imagine you're a townie, and you think a wrong townie is on your case, possibly putting you in danger of being lynched. You ignore their questions? By the way, AFTER all those quotes of me asking about zephirdd he makes the following post addressed to me: On August 08 2012 08:06 VisceraEyes wrote: talis I'M NOT SCUM! Nothing is going to be clear because I'm not going to flip red! I'm going to flip Lane Pryce, Town Mason. Flip ACTUAL scum like Erand with me! Or clear out some of the background lurker noise, frankly I don't give a shit - but I'M town and I'M not going to flip red! Indicating that, at the very least, he still leans town on me. So during that entire period of ignoring my follow-up question to something he brought up he did not actually have a scumread on me. This "trap" was made up after the fact. It wasn't until after the lynch that he PMs me, saying that I "fooled" him and he was onto me and all that. (D) VE has very few doubts. In general, townies are unsure about their scumreads. Read through all of VE's scumreads. He's never uncertain. I don't know his meta on this point but at the very least I consider this a weak scumtell. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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toad if I'm reading between the lines correctly here you're saying that you mason'd CountDropula as he requested and he revealed that he had a red check on me? Did he call me a goon? Otherwise I don't see how he gets alignment. Why (if it is CD) does he check you - and did he get your alignment or how else did he claim to know your char name? Why didn't he check zephirdd? (If it was CD). My character name is Henry Francis, and I'm VT as far as I know. I claimed my char name early on in the thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=20#399 I doubt I'm a miller since 3 millers seems excessive (and what host makes all three of sloosh, wbg, and me millers? That's silly). Guess I could be though. He may have just guessed your char name. You've given a lot of hints. One of which is that you were listed as mafia in my fake setup thingie, but you said you were town. That limits the possibilities. The other is that you said that your character is "literally gonzaw" which limits them further. I would guess you as Pete Campbell based on that. __________ Logically I guess it goes like this: If he said I was a goon, then I'm either a miller or he's lying. If he said I was a roleblocker then he's lying. | ||
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Can you clarify exactly how DTs work in this game? It sounds like they only get roles on whom they check, not character names nor alignments. Specifically, DT checks townie = ? DT checks miller = ? DT checks goon = ? DT checks roleblocker = ? DT checks town mason = ? DT checks scum mason = ? DT checks godfather = ? DT checks medic = ? DT checks vigilante = ? | ||
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On August 05 2012 23:28 CountDropula wrote: Not a smurf, I'm new. Changing votes like that was a mistake. Honestly i was too hasty, and that's it. Made a mistake, but is it really that suspicious? | ||
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On August 10 2012 04:18 Toadesstern wrote: he said "Talis the mafia goon". That's all I'm going to say. huh. well at least this more or less proves that you're town unless you're way craftier than I remember. | ||
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On August 10 2012 04:27 JingleHell wrote: Would kinda eliminate the value of a smurf if you have to admit it, I think. Most of the times smurfs do play in public. But maybe that's at the host's discretion. | ||
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On August 06 2012 09:44 Synystyr wrote: Active mode starting now grush and CountDropula are the most counterproductive people in this thread. They're being trollish for the sake of screwing with our heads and making us point fingers at each other instead of them. If they weren't scum, they'd be more helpful than they are now. Stop with the hints and talk straight at us. What ever happened to "active mode"? You had two posts before this, three posts afterwards. Five or so posts pre-game. | ||
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On August 10 2012 04:37 Lazermonkey wrote: How does this prove that Toad is town? Wouldn't this just mean that his ''source'' is town and you are scum or the other way around? I guess it could mean that both you and the other guy are both town if you are a miller. But how does this mean Toad is town? It's very possible that the guy just told Toad to say he got a red check on you in the thread. This way he wouldn't out himself as DT but still let us know that he got a red check. As there really isn't a reason for town not to out this in the thread Toad is more or less forced to do that no matter what alignment he is. Well the way I see it, I am town. If toad were scum, he would know I'm town. There'd be no reason for him to go mum like this in that case. I mean it's like a free mislynch. A bit of an academic point though everything else about toad's play screams town as well. | ||
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On August 10 2012 04:51 Lazermonkey wrote: I don't get this. If Toad is scum and you are town and we lynch you and you flip town, then we know that the guy is scum unless you flip miller. How will Toad look bad for that? Yhea, I'm also thinking Toad is town. At least atm. Eh forget it it's just that I think toad wouldn't be like "talis has a redcheck" and then "oh can't talk about it anymore" if he were scum and I'm miller, or if the whole thing was fake. | ||
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On August 10 2012 06:48 Toadesstern wrote: what has my alignment to do with this? Can we argue about wether I bussed him or genuinely wanted to lynch him after seeing him flip red pretty please? If you believe the DT story and all your worries is MY alignment there's no reason to be afraid. But as mentioned. I'll leave it with that as I don't know wether or not the guy is a mafia or townie. Yes either he is a mafia or Talis is a mafia but so far it could be both Also he could be DT and I'm miller. | ||
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On August 10 2012 06:59 VisceraEyes wrote: If Toad is in contact with a DT you're lynched - there's no way you're a miller. The question is if he's in contact with a DT or not. I think not. I dunno about "no way". Three seems really unlikely but not impossible. PS why are you being so reasonable? Confusing. | ||
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On August 10 2012 07:47 Toadesstern wrote: because we kind of can't afford to misslynch right now, even if we're getting a mafia the next day because it might just be over? We can't really ignore this toad. How certain are you that it's either/or? This game seems fucked by this one move. Scenarios spelled out (someone check me if I'm wrong): 17 alive now. Lynch me, I flip miller. 14 alive next day assuming no protects and no more vigis. One more mislynch to give before it's lylo the rest of the way. 17 alive now. Lynch me, I flip vanilla townie. 14 alive next day. Lynch the DT (toad outs during the night to avoid NK complication) and the game is still difficult but now two mislynches to give. 17 alive now. Lynch the DT. He flips DT. 14 alive next day. Lynch me. I flip miller. Lylo the rest of the way (worst case scenario). 17 alive now. Lynch the DT. He flips mafia. Best case scenario. 17 alive now. Lynch outside of me and the DT. Hit mafia - great and go from there. Hit town - then lynch me and stare down the barrels of 5 consecutive lylos. I won't entertain the scenarios where I'm mafia because I'm not but I doubt any of you will have a problem doing so. ______________ My problem is that I can't see how this figures into a scum plot. Unless I'm just completely wrong about VE, why this all of a sudden? I guess it can fit with VE but it means a more subtle thing, where VE completely makes up the zephirdd bit as a misdirection or something. ___________ Hmm I guess I should defend myself or something? This is weird. I don't want to play against my wincon by suggesting that you lynch me first, but lynching the DT seems like it would be doing the same thing, as it's the higher-variance choice. Zugzwang. Lynching outside the pair seems equally high variance. | ||
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Also @toad - why didn't you mason me? Not to be vain but I figured I would be high on your list given that I'm such a chatty type and that you were finding me "weird" and whatnot. | ||
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@marv if we're going to lynch outside of me and whoever is accusing me I could maybe go for glasse. I'd prefer VE or BKE though. Hassy too but I'm worried about why he's been this inactive. Apparently he gave BC an ok excuse since he wasn't modkilled. | ||
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X claims a "Mafia Goon" check on me. Other bits: X claims to have received my character info in his check as well. Still waiting from host confirmation if this is possible. X knew Toad's character info and role. Unclear if X has also checked toad but seems implied. Implications: I am either scum or miller or town, depending on whether you think X is DT or scum. See my earlier post for a rundown of lynch scenarios as they pertain to lylo. | ||
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On August 10 2012 09:07 Toadesstern wrote: Well he's not a "high visibility potential lynch" candidate. He's just not what I'd call a townie straight from the books either. So far noone mentioned him as a lynch candidate if I'm not mistaken. So how'd you end up masoning him, then? | ||
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On August 10 2012 09:13 marvellosity wrote: who the fudge is X? you, for all I know. | ||
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On August 10 2012 09:14 Toadesstern wrote: noone in this game has a townread on Talis lol well jingle and hopeless1der at least agree with me on VE. | ||
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On August 10 2012 09:16 Toadesstern wrote: well yeah because I was asked to. If the guy tells the truth we can get way more out of it with this proxy. I could tell another mason to mason him so that he can get the next read the next cycle. If the mason lies the DT can just claim, I can confirm the DT and we found ourselves a mafia-mason after already finding mafia-Talis. Telling the name doesn't really change a thing. wtf is this lol? how do you expect to tell another mason who the DT is in private? How would you know that that mason wasn't scum? | ||
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On August 10 2012 09:20 Toadesstern wrote: idk, via PM's perhaps? I just said, even if the next Mason is a mafia he has to tell the truth or he is busted because both the DT and I can confirm wether he's telling the truth or not. So unless jingle hasn't masoned you already... that means hassy or VE masons you today (if they haven't masoned someone). Now you tell one of them (both of whom could be scum - both likely are in my estimation) who the DT is. Then they kill both of you at night. Correct? | ||
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well if you haven't masoned someone yet I'm up for it. Because if he gets modkilled and really is a DT I think you'll probably want to pick my brains before I get lynched. | ||
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xsebt - DT talismania - miller toad - town mason jinglehell - town mason VE - scum mason hassybaby - scum mason (?) BKE - scum goon Count Dropula - scum godfather (Sinensis smurf - has to be someone who played with zeph in NMM II) hier - scum goon I think I know who the vig is as well but I won't say. __________ I say we lynch VE and have xsebt check BKE. If neither comes up red, lynch me tomorrow. | ||
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On August 09 2012 21:58 talismania wrote: Medics: LISTEN TO ME DEAR GOD lol. That said, the NKs are fairly illuminating. Especially solstice - he was killed primarily because he's a good townie and he was correct about VE. Solstice and I were interchangeable for those purposes, but I am spared because VE is committed to getting me mislynched (a reasonable play given that he thinks he can rely on xsebt and synystyr's votes if they're town). His push on zephirdd is there because he knows there's support for it from dropula at least I guess. Who the mafia are: VE hassybaby BKE other two are somewhere in hier, glasse, dropula, synystyr I think. My bet is hier glasse at the moment. _________________ In response to VE: He set a trap by not talking about zephirdd? Ok... I'm just following up on anything and everything you say because I think you're scum. You said you were going to look at him again, therefore I wanted to know if you followed through on that as scum tend not to. I don't know zeph's alignment for sure but I do lean town. _________________ VisceraEyes is scum. (A) He makes lazy cases that are unresearched. Not just against me, but also against erandorr and against zephirdd. Read what I wrote about his case on me yesterday. (B) He REFUSED TO KEEP IN CONTACT VIA PMs WITH SOMEONE (1) AND HE THOUGHT THAT THAT PERSON WAS SCUM (2). Let me expand on that further - so you're a townie in VE's shoes. You think maybe I'm scum and that I'm connected with zephirdd. Therefore you set a trap... by refusing to talk to me about zephirdd???? Why, if I'm scum, do I keep haranguing a townie to find out what his read is on my scumbuddy??????????? Why the fuck would I care about that if I were scum? Especially because in that scenario, I'm trying to lynch the guy I'm haranguing. So why would I give a shit about how good his reads are on other people in my scum team? Why would I call attention to that? No. If you're townie, and you're a mason, and you suspect that the guy you're masoned with is scum you PRESS him. You don't set traps by NOT talking about a potential scumbuddy of your target. You re-engage. Ask questions. To hammer this point home: WHY STOP TALKING TO SOMEONE YOU THINK IS SCUM? How can that possibly help? VE isn't afraid of being manipulated, I know that. So why, after he switches back to thinking I'm scum, does he show no interest in talking anymore? (C) I just realized that VE accidentally might have just trapped himself with this zephirdd thing. To explain: he is claiming that he ignored my questions about zephirdd because he thought I was scum, and wanted to see what happened. Let's look at the first assertion he makes: + Show Spoiler + Our whole conversation was about zephirdd? Please. Firstly: If by this you mean "after some negligible small talk about irc and skype", the course of our conversation was this: You: what do you think about erandorr Me: I'm looking into him but think he's town for the most part. You: yeah here's why I think eran is scum. also here are my other scumreads, which I'm giving to you completely UNPROMPTED. Me: Oh, I'd like to hear more about that zephirdd guy since you mentioned him earlier in the thread as well. How the hell do you go from that to getting that the entire conversation was building up to me asking about zephirdd? It wasn't. VE brought zephirdd's name up, unprompted. Not me. It gets better though. My follow-up question about zephirdd was sent on August 7, 8:29. His reply about giving him some time to get home came August 7, 12:47. Then my follow up question since he didn't say anything in that reply about zeph, then he goes cold in PMs. Despite this, he makes the following post in the thread: He's also posted that he's done in PMs. So he thinks I'm wrong town - yet when I ask him to just follow up on his read about zephirdd (after this post) he does nothing as a trap? How does that make sense? Like imagine you're a townie, and you think a wrong townie is on your case, possibly putting you in danger of being lynched. You ignore their questions? By the way, AFTER all those quotes of me asking about zephirdd he makes the following post addressed to me: Indicating that, at the very least, he still leans town on me. So during that entire period of ignoring my follow-up question to something he brought up he did not actually have a scumread on me. This "trap" was made up after the fact. It wasn't until after the lynch that he PMs me, saying that I "fooled" him and he was onto me and all that. (D) VE has very few doubts. In general, townies are unsure about their scumreads. Read through all of VE's scumreads. He's never uncertain. I don't know his meta on this point but at the very least I consider this a weak scumtell. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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On August 10 2012 10:13 Hier wrote: Talis, or we can lynch you today, after Xsebt gets modkilled and flips town DT, sounds good? You kind of assume you are a miller. No, no modkill. Town didn't get the modkill of hassy, you guys don't get the modkill of xsebt. BC has been lenient and fair. My bet is xsebt didn't even know he was breaking the rules. He probably misunderstood how masons work. Lord knows he hasn't been paying that close of attention to the thread. | ||
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On August 10 2012 10:23 Toadesstern wrote: I'm not taking the possibility of you being a miller as a chance. Either he is a mafia who tried he could manipulate me by claiming DT in pms without realizing how masons work, in which case you're town. Or he is a DT and found a mafia when checking you. toad toad TOAD aghgh hahahaha. It's on your shoulders here I think. By the way, can you actually post the PMs? We need to treat this like a public claim, so I'd like to see exactly what he wrote. There's a chance I can actually prove that he's a DT, so this is very important. | ||
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Toad, mason me if you haven't masoned someone already. Toad, post the exact PMs xsebt sent you. There's a small chance they contain a tiny bit of information that proves that he is a DT. | ||
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On August 10 2012 10:13 Hier wrote: Talis, or we can lynch you today, after Xsebt gets modkilled and flips town DT, sounds good? You kind of assume you are a miller. Does this smell incredibly off to anyone else? Like I can't logically put my finger on it but my brain is screaming at me that this is a scumslip or something. Like, if he's saying that xsebt is going to flip town DT, then why does he state after that that I assume I'm a miller? What else do I assume in that case? Like, is he trying to say that I am incorrectly assuming that I'm a miller, and therefore that xsebt is scum? That's the only logical way to interpret those two sentences but I'm fairly sure that's not what he was getting at. | ||
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I can confirm that in my role PM, my character's name is spelled incorrectly as Henry Francais. The actual character is Henry Francis (I think). More importantly, I posted Henry Francis, not Francais in the thread. The only way xsebt would have written Francais is if he is indeed the DT. | ||
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Here's the list of roles in the game, for those who missed it earlier: xsebt - DT talismania - miller toad - town mason jinglehell - town mason VisceraEyes - scum mason hassybaby - scum mason BroodKingEXE - scum goon CountDropula - scum godfather Hier - scum goon If you follow that list, you will win. (Hopefully if I'm wrong I'm not TOO wrong). Toad, they'll probably keep you alive because of how wrong you've been and likely will continue to be. If I can't convince you today then I hope you can swallow your pride and start fresh after I die. Medics, protect xsebt. Xsebt, check BKE first, then hier, then synystyr, then glasse. Marvellosity, Jingle, maybe lazermonkey. You guys will have to be town leaders after I'm dead. Marv I know you're not invested in this game since you weren't in it at the beginning but please try to win it for us. | ||
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On August 10 2012 10:44 talismania wrote: OK XSEBT IS INDEED A DT I can confirm that in my role PM, my character's name is spelled incorrectly as Henry Francais. The actual character is Henry Francis (I think). More importantly, I posted Henry Francis, not Francais in the thread. The only way xsebt would have written Francais is if he is indeed the DT. By the way for those with an open mind out there still, why the fuck would I do what I do in this quoted post if I were scum? LOL | ||
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On August 10 2012 10:56 Hier wrote: Talis, grats on 2k. Thanks, gratz on getting lucky with me being miller. | ||
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Vote VE. If he is not scum, lynch me tomorrow and I will paypal everyone who voted him 20 USD (after the game so as not to break communication rules). | ||
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On August 10 2012 11:01 Hier wrote: Ok so, wait. I must have missed the memo. You think I'm scum purely based on the fact that I think that you being scum is more likely than you being a miller? Because I saw no accusations from you before this point. That kind of makes you look more scummy. Eh you're the one I'm least sure about definitely. It's between you glasse and synystyr. Synystyr is up there with you since he continuously fails his activity standards and hasn't contributed much to the game. I'll rethink things after a break so that I can settle down and give my final reads out for people to follow once I'm dead and flipped. | ||
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On August 10 2012 10:59 talismania wrote: So I don't see anything about this in the rules anywhere: Vote VE. If he is not scum, lynch me tomorrow and I will paypal everyone who voted him 20 USD (after the game so as not to break communication rules). For the record please disregard this post - I skimmed the rules and missed this. I know it felt wrong but what can I say there's a part of me that always looks for ways to game the system. | ||
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(1) Why am I a goon? Mafia got to pick their own roles. Look at the players left in this game. Imagine that I am scum. What other three players in this game, on my scum team, would end up with mason (assuming there are two scum masons) and godfather? Toad? VE? Toad obviously isn't scum with me. Neither is VE. Hassy? The only thing Hassy has done is point out suspicious things I've done. So what - GF goes to a lurky new guy over me? I love the mason role. I don't know for sure if I would have taken it as scum because it is kind of fraught with peril but I for sure would have taken GF over goon and who else in this game could claim as much? Why, if I'm a goon, do behave like this? So actively, playing exactly to my town meta. Why do I even talk about setup shit if I'm a goon lol. As GF, sure. But goon? No way. (2) Who the hell are my scumbuddies? No scum have died yet. Let's look at the remaining players. I'll do this off the top of my head: VE - wants me lynched. I want him lynched. toad - very publicly vacillated on me. Can't be my scumbuddy or he doesn't bring up this whole stink. zephirdd - called me scum D1. Called me scum N2 (with VE for some reason). Hassybaby - only thing he's talked about is my setup talk and cast suspicion thereon. And I've been very public about not minding him getting lynched either. xsebt - obviously not my scumbuddy count dropula - wants me dead. Voted me D1 before changing, has promoted me to scum-marionette. synystyr - wants me lynched. lazer - no problem voting for me today. Ok that's all I remember off the top of my head let's look at the remaining filters hopeless1der - voted me day 1 hier - has called me scum, wanted to lynch me or erandorr D2 BKE - no real stance on me, but I want him checked by the DT and lynched. jinglehell - used to think I was town glasse - no real stance on me that I see. marv - said I was town. Clearly from this the only conclusion is that my whole scum strategy is to bus all my teammates and get bussed by them. I've done that before, or tried to, in I can't believe it's not themed mini (filter here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147&user=32774 ). Compare the activity in those two filters. What happened when I was under duress? I gave up and waited to be lynched. Is that what I'm doing now? This leads us to the next point: (3) My Meta I like playing town. I dislike playing scum. When I'm town I'm active, when I'm scum I'm inactive. The only scum game I've tried in was Pick Your Poison and I know I'm playing way more actively and aggressively than I ever did in that game (filter here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340727&user=32774 ). Other mafia game filters: BangBang2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340480&user=32774. Compare those to SSB64: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=348072&user=32774 and Bastard 2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343892&user=32774 Especially read SSB64. I was town and was mislynched. Toad you should know this better than anyone. Did I give up? Did I ever stop trying? No. I knew I was the only townie who had the game figured out at that point, and I knew it was my job to convince the other townies. They stubbornly refused to listen and I ended up getting lynched, shot, and we lost the game. Of course I was culpable to some degree. How did I get in trouble that game? Toad you know the answer - I speculated (correctly, by the way) about the nature of the setup. Contrast that with I Can't Believe It's Not Themed where I gave up as fast as I could as mafia getting lynched (Mattchew and Dropbear were my scumbuddies for those reading the filter). (4) N2 Night kills Why do I, as scum, kill solstice and strongandbig? Both of them were on the same page as I when it came to VE. If I'm scum, then clearly a major part of my plan is to get VE lynched. Why do I make that intentionally harder on myself? I don't. I kill toad in that situation, 100% of the time. I also kill the person whom I believe is the vigilante. Scum picked those two because it suited their purposes (reduced focus on VE) plus they thought it would be funny if they kept picking the targets that I said should be defended. As far as N1 goes, I agree and would have double-stacked sloosh, assuming that's what happened and gambled on there only being one medic or one of them deciding not to protect him. (5) Why the hell do I do this? Why am I convinced Xsebt is town DT, instead of scum? Why aren't I arguing against him? Why, instead, did I go out of my way to get toad to post exactly what was in those PMs, because I knew that if it said "Henry Francais" instead of "Henry Francis" then he had to be a DT as only I and BC were privy to that spelling in my PM. I was asking for this very early on today: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=62#1229 _________________ At the end of the day, what is more likely?: --That I'm a crazy scum who chose goon over godfather, set out to bus all my teammates or be bussed by them, stated who I would be killing every night just for the shits and even risked directing medic protection at who I picked, and have managed to play to my town meta better than I've ever done in my life. (Seriously people just count the number of pages in the filters). --That I'm a townie miller. | ||
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1. Hassybaby 2. mrzentor 3. Toadesstern 4. visceraeyes 5. BroodKingEXE 6. talismania 7. lazermonkey 8. Hopeless1der 9. jinglehell 10. zephirdd 11. XsebT 12. Hier 13. Glasse 14. CountDropula 15. Marv 16. Synystyr So right now it's 11 - 5 Assuming I'm mislynched, that puts us at 10 - 5, then 2 night kills, 8 - 5. That's essentially lylo. Mislynch and you have to pray for a medic save. That means every day a scum has to be lynched. Upshot: lynch me, likely lose the game. Do what I say, have a fighting chance. Fellow townies, please take this seriously. Ask me as many questions as you need to. Please take the time to check my meta. Please read my posts thoroughly. I will be as succinct and direct as possible. | ||
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Scum: you guys know how good of a position you're in. You can win without losing a member. Town: I don't think it's really set in for most of you how terrible of a position you're in. Let me explain it again. Right now there are 11 town and 5 scum. Here's what will probably happen: I'm lynched, jingle and marv are killed at night, toad is still completely wrong the next day and zephirdd gets lynched, GG flawless scum victory. The only real chance is if when I actually do flip miller toad (assuming he's town) actually realizes that he's just been completely wrong about everything in this game and genuinely re-evaluates the situation and sees that VE is the most obviously scummy person in this game. Sidenote: if this doesn't happen people need to look at toad more carefully because I can't imagine him being wrong for that long is weird even for his standards. Alternate scenarios: (1) I'm lynched and flip miller, jingle and marv are killed. 8 - 5, lylo. VE or BKE is finally lynched, lazer and toad killed. 6 - 4, lylo. The other of VE or BKE is lynched. 2 other townies killed. 4 - 3, lylo. Count Dropula or Hier gets lynched (depending on what xsebt says), then it will be 3 - 2 the next day. Then 2 - 1. So to say it again, If I am lynched, town will be at lylo from now until they lose or lynch all five scum in a row* *Of course, this is barring medic protects. However, the medics should be on xsebt. Scum may attempt to double stack on xsebt, gambling that there's only one medic too, which might reduce the NK. And of course, if there's still vig shots out there then that can accelerate or decelerate the game. (2) I'm lynched and flip scum. VE and synystyr NK'd I guess? 9 - 4. Not a terrible position but not great either. One mislynch (say, zephirdd) puts it at 6 - 4 and right back to lylo. Also it won't happen because I'm not scum. (3) VE or hassy gets lynched today and flips scum. 9 - 4 but people actually realize that I was right. I'll probably be NK'd but that's a tricky play for scum given that I do have a red check. If they leave me alive I'll be able to lead at least one other scum lynch, putting town in the advantage. This is the best case scenario. Too bad I don't think you'll be convinced. | ||
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talismania
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MEDICS YOU MUST PROTECT XSEBT The only thing town has in this position is a confirmed DT. No wifom about it. Xsebt is a DT. Xsebt: you must post your redchecks immediately from now on! You can play completely in the open. Green checks can be reported as well if you like. I recommend checking BKE, hier, glasse, and synystyr. If we have another DT, please check the same list! I kinda hope we do have another DT, because 3 millers and only 1 DT seems imbalanced. Other things to think about: Vig if you still have a shot left for the love of god shoot VE. You should probably not come out in the open until Xsebt is dead. You will be very important in lylo situations. Toad, please stop being wrong if you're town. If you're scum then you've played really well. Lazermonkey, hopeless1der: now's the time for you guys to step up your game and assume a town leadership position (again assuming you guys are town but I think you are). Also assuming that jinglehell is indeed NK'd which he probably will be. | ||
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On August 11 2012 02:07 Hopeless1der wrote: That isn't proof. I have another player's character name in my PM since there is a relationship between them in the show. If the scum are trying to fake a dt claim, I'd expect them to put some solid effort into making it believable, including copying the names from the pms. Talis posted his character's name to the thread. They knew what to look for. My scenario is extremely convoluted. Occam's razor says talis is either miller or scum due to the red check. But the red check is secondary information and I dont trust it coming from toad. Xsebt has not posted yet. At this rate he's getting modkilled. He's pretty much outed already. Why continue to hide? No, it is proof. He told toad my name was Henry Francais, which is what my PM says. However, what I posted in the thread was Henry Francis (minus the "a"). The only way he got the Francais spelling is if he got it from the host. The actual spelling is Francis, so he couldn't have gotten it from the show. | ||
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Xsebt is DT, end of story. | ||
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On August 11 2012 02:05 marvellosity wrote: why do you think zeph is town, talis? I'm fairly certain VE is scum. I think Dropula is the godfather as well. I know - a bit connectiony. Zephirdd just doesn't fit with any model of scum play this game. We both played with him when he was traitor in Pick Your Power and I seem to recall a safer style of posting then, not as loose. In Pick Your Poison I was scum and he was town and I found him incredibly scummy and spent the whole game more or less plotting to get him mislynched. He just does things that people consider obvious scumtells as town. I think he's done that here. I mean, scum aren't playing that great this game. They haven't built any good cases or actually convinced people. They instead pick up on the stupidest little things, like my discussion of setup, or zephirdd's list of people that hadn't posted in D1 and base their false suspicions on those. Marv, assuming you're town, which I lean on you and BioSc but can't really prove, you should really dig into this game during the night phase. Read through it like you're scum, since you're quite good at scum, and discern the scum lynch pushes and plans. I think you will come to the same conclusion that I have, which is that VE is scum mason, and that count dropula's play is explained perfectly if he's a sinensis smurf (dropula attacks zephirdd based on zeph's meta in Normal Mini Mafia 2, claiming that he went and read zeph's past games. No one ever reads past games, especially not "new" players which is what dropula claims he is. Dropula is acting weird as fuck because he wants to draw DT checks because he's GF). | ||
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On August 11 2012 02:21 Hopeless1der wrote: durr my insanity convinced someone lol ##Unvote I want to hear it from Xsebt before I'll vote. If you're going to vote for either Xsebt or me, vote for me. Xsebt is confirmed DT. Xsebt is confirmed DT. Xsebt is confirmed DT. (1) He knew toad's char name too (2) The play makes no sense as scum - it trades 1 for 1 with a suspicious VT (3) Scum don't act on their own when doing something like that, someone definitely tells him that it's against the rules to PM | ||
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On August 10 2012 14:48 Lazermonkey wrote: Talis needs to die. We cannot judge him by his defense. There are two possible explanation for his play here. 1) He is miller. 2) He is scum but wants to act as miller as it's the only way he might survive. Out of these two 2 is much more likely than 1. So unless you had a very convincing town read to start with, you should vote him. [purple]Lazermonkey[/purple] Imagine that you're scum. Imagine that I'm scum with you. Now look at the remaining non-mason players in the game and pick anyone else to be scum with us. Can you actually see anybody else deserving the godfather role more than me? I'm at least a semi-veteran around here, having been playing since May or so. I'm known to be active. GF is a perfect role for me. Mason is even a decent role for me, as it's supposedly rolecop-proof. Hell, I'd even take roleblocker over goon. Please actually think about whether me being scum or me being miller makes the most sense. This is about weighing one bit of hard evidence of unknown reliability versus an enormous amount of soft evidence with strong reliability. | ||
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On August 11 2012 02:41 Hopeless1der wrote: I have no intention of voting xsebt. Its either you or VE at this point. Lynching into a dt is insane, confirmed or not. 1) If they're both scum of course they do 2) This is completely true and probably why I'll vote for you by the end of this. 3) Again, if they're scum no rules were broken. You keep feeding us info that we can use to try to win later, but insist we kill you. I'm all but convinced your town, but we can't risk it going into LYLO. I'm still not voting until xsebt gets his ass in here and gives some semblance of an explanation for this shitshow. You won't go into lylo if we lynch VE. You will if you lynch me. At this point, modkills might start to be a factor for players like hassy and possibly xsebt if he never shows and whomever else doesn't show. The game could possibly be over tonight if BC feels like killing nonvoters. | ||
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This is a legitimate question - are DTs functionally rolecops or alignment cops or both? Specifically, DT checks townie = ? DT checks miller = ? DT checks goon = ? DT checks roleblocker = ? DT checks town mason = ? DT checks scum mason = ? DT checks godfather = ? DT checks medic = ? DT checks vigilante = ? You can post the answer in the thread if you don't want to just tell one player. | ||
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On August 10 2012 20:51 Toadesstern wrote: That's exactly the point. I'm not even saying what talis is posting is looking more like a mafia (except for the fact that he's leaving out the mafia scenarios when talking but no idea how you guys think about that) but if he is mafia he can't just get in here and tell people "sup dudes, I got a red check on me, ignore it and lynch someone else because I say so". He has to deal with it no matter of alignment. Besides I'd be up for lynching Zeph as well. I don't realy like how he was so furious and mad about someone breaking the rules and suddenly went on to sweettalk me like that when he said "Toad is't not your fault. Xsebt is the guy who did something wrong". I get that you're mad if someone breaks the rules but it felt over the top. Not even Talis was anywhere as mad and he's the center of all this after all. Toad, in your honest opinion do you think I could play like I've played this game as scum? Even remotely close to this? | ||
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BC got back to me about DTs. DTs receive character name, role name, color-formatted to indicate the alignment. DTs are both alignment cops and rolecops (and character cops?) Therefore an enormous preponderance of evidence indicates that Xsebt is clearly town. This also guarantees that toad is town, otherwise xsebt doesn't tell toad about his check on me. (xsebt checked toad N2). | ||
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Why I think VisceraEyes is scum (1) Meta VE's meta is off. He is normally an active, even spammy player as town (days are RL days, pre-game posts not counted): Posts in Bureaucracy (town): ~220 in 8 days Posts in Normal Mini Mafia 2 (town): ~140 before he was lynched 5 days in (Note that this was the beginning of his new, "restrained" playstyle. Posts in Movie Star Mini (town): ~240 posts before he was lynched 6 days in Posts in iGrok's Clean old-fashioned (town): ~140 before he was lynched 6 days in Posts in Emergency Mini Mafia (town): ~100 before he was killed 5 days in Posts in Liar Game (town): ~60 before he was lynched 3 days in Posts in LV (town): staggeringly ~300 before he was lynched 5 days in However, he is less active as scum: Posts in Wheel of Fortune Mini Mafia (scum): ~50 in 6 days. ( Filter for comparison: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330925&user=117978 ) (This was the only scum game I found (not counting his SK game). Are there others?) And how many posts does he have this game? ~80 in 8 days. 10 posts a day, just like Wheel of Fortune, and completely unlike his most recent town games. Bureaucracy: almost 30 posts per day for the first 8 days. NMM2: almost 30 posts per day for the first 8 days. Both of these town games were played with him consciously trying to post less. (2) Scummy behavioral traits (a) A strange amount of certainty, particularly when it comes to lynches. Townies do not know who scum are. It is typical for them to express doubt when it comes to placing their votes and making their cases. VE hasn't really doubted himself this game. (b) Lots of exaggerations. He exaggerates many things, some of which I've pointed out before, in making his cases. (c) Failure to follow up. Townies say they're going to do something and then do it. VE says he's going to do things but never really gets around to it: On August 04 2012 11:28 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm gonna reread the thread. Zeph's activity is at least such that if he's scum he's sure to let me know soon enough...and there are FAR too many lurkers for a healthy town at this point. He's defended himself at least, yet is still interested in finding scum. Not comfortable lynching anymore...but keep talking Zeph. ##Unvote Zephirdd I'm rereading with a focus on players who barely have any content, and hopefully one of them jumps out at me...because at this point I'm on the verge of a Lurker Policy Lynch...and those of you who have played with me know it's serious if it's come to that. On August 06 2012 02:58 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm finally near a computer. I'm going to post my thoughts on prplhz as promised, even though it's useless now, and give my thoughts on those of us remaining. prplhz entered the game in what I perceived to be an extraordinarily scummy way. The first thing he did upon entering was complain about spam that had yet to even occur. I mean, there's fostering a pro-town environment and there's seeking out easy town-cred by saying something completely devoid of content, you know? Anyway, when I called him out on it his response was to diffuse the situation. I viewed this as overly diplomatic according to what I've observed as prplhz' playstyle. As a result, my scumread on prplhz was born. His only subsequent actions he made in the game were his case on Glasse and his vote on slOosh for inactivity. Those are the only things prplhz had done in the game. And looking at the timing of it all, it just looked extremely bad. But prplhz flipped town. So that leaves us with the question: Who, among us, is scum? Right now I'm looking into talismania, Errandor, Zephirdd and I'm filtering one JingleHell and I'm trying to figure out what to think about wherebugsgo. I'll post my findings in detail a little later...but those are my preliminary thoughts before reading/casemaking. Anyone saying I'm scum for "my attitude" needs to have their head checked. I've been trying to help. I apologize for my absence, I intend to do my part in finding and destroying our enemies. He did eventually post stuff about me and erandorr, but never his findings on zeph or jinglehell or wbg. And the stuff he did post on me and erandorr suggests he really didn't pay much attention to his "looking into" On August 07 2012 02:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Wow I live. Amazing. I don't know why we're assuming slOosh was double-stacked - while I don't think it's likely that grush was a priority scum target, the way he was playing and posting felt kinda blue to me, so I can imagine it would feel blue to scum too. Plus, considering Bugs is among the only voices who was speaking out in opposition of grush, it makes even less sense to assume that a vig killed grush (because Bugs was under such heavy suspicion himself.) Until we get a vig claim, I'm assuming that both scum shots have been accounted for here. Bugs, our masoning is over sir. If you want to discuss with me, do so in the thread guy. There's some interesting stuff going on - I'll comment after my reread. He posted this after I had made my huge case on him. But he never commented on it until much later. The next thing he wrote was "okay" when I asked him to mason me. On August 07 2012 06:53 VisceraEyes wrote: @Bugs Looking at talis' activity, I'm less inclined to vote him. I mean - I get the case on me and I can't refute it...it's based almost entirely around the quality of my case against him, which I'll admit is fairly bad. That being said, I've masoned talis and we'll see where my read on him goes from here. Errandor is looking like the best target today - we've now flipped a town mason, so theoretically speaking lynching into the masons is a good plan if we're subscribing to the idea that scum must have masons. That aside, I had a scum read leaving N1 and that hasn't changed. I feel like his defense against my points fails to address the main crux of my argument which is that rather than argue his points logically, he's more interested in turning town AGAINST you appealing to their emotions. It just sucks for him that most everyone KNOWS you're a bastard regardless of alignment.  And in response to your first question...no guy. 5 out of what 20? players isn't enough. I'm thoroughly DISatisfied with town's activity right now. Hopefully I'll be able to add something more to the conversation soon. He didn't add anything to the conversation for another three hours, when he just voted for erandorr after riling him up. Also note that he says he's dissatisfied with town's activity when he himself is way under his own activity trends. (3) Making poor cases with little research and no consideration of alternate possibilities See my previous posts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=43#853 and here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=61#1220 (4) Non-townie usage of the mason role (a) His stated reasoning for masoning wbg makes no sense and continues to make no sense: On August 04 2012 01:38 VisceraEyes wrote: Because I'd rather hunt for scum than defend myself, so I masoned a veteran in as a shortcut to establishing my innocence with him if he's town so he can smack down anyone (Toad) who thinks I'm scum for stupid-ass reasons. Also if he's scum, I wanted a private line with him in case he felt like telling me all about it in PMs. So far he hasn't. :/ Him instantly outting me wasn't something I'd considered. I figured he'd talk to me about it first. I have a long way to go in understanding Bugs' play. (b) He exaggerates what our PM conversation was like, which I explain here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=61#1220 (c) He calls me scum, then refuses to talk to me in PMs anymore. Why does a townie tell a scum player they think the scum is scum, and then refuse to talk to that person? A townie doesn't tell the scum what they think, and instead pumps the scum for more information. Cutting off communication with me during N2 made no sense at all. (5) Logical inconsistencies (a) Stating that zephirdd and I have equal chances of being scum, yet basing his scumread on zephirdd based on a connection to me. Subsequently votes zephirdd instead of me, even though I'm the original scumread. (this makes sense from a scum pov of course because lynching me first immediately makes VE look bad). See this post and try to follow the logic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=60#1194 (b) Contradicting himself when it comes to why he found WBG town. Originally, he writes On August 04 2012 01:42 VisceraEyes wrote: Eran: he thinks you're either dumb or scum. A loss of a player like that to NK is preferable to a NK on like...him. By his estimation. Bugs is probably town bro...I think he'd try and manipulate us in PMs rather than instantly out us if he were scum. and shortly thereafter adds On August 04 2012 01:49 VisceraEyes wrote: He certainly hasn't done anything in PMland to convince me he's town, that's for sure. I'm basing that read exclusively on the fact that he outted myself and Eran SnB. Do you feel like he did it to "fuck with town" rather than for the reason he gave? Where the "He" is WBG. HOWEVER, later when asked (several times) about why he found wbg to be town he finally answers: On August 07 2012 09:51 VisceraEyes wrote: *snip* 1) His reads / willingness to discuss them with me *snip* He completely forgot the original reason he made up to say why he thought bugs was town. A townie wouldn't forget that. _________________ Please read what I just wrote, if you skimmed. Imagine that I didn't write it, if that helps. This is the best case anyone has made all game. Vote VE. | ||
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On August 11 2012 03:50 Hopeless1der wrote: That's infuriating Glasse... @Marv, Lynching into Xsebt is insane to me because no one has counterclaimed and giving up a dt for a scum in that order is not the way to go about doing things. Talis presumably is not blue given his arguments this past day. If he flips VT, THEN I'd want to lynch xsebt. If Talis were to flip miller or scum, xsebt is pretty much confirmed. I'd like to believe we'd be significantly better off lynching talis today if it were between xsebt and talis. I want to make sure this gets through to you: xsebt is 99% a real DT without knowing my alignment (1) The host has confirmed to me that DTs get character names, role names, and alignments. This fits. (2) Xsebt's behavior is exactly what a kind of new DT player would do. He gets a red check on me and immediately tunnels me. (3) It makes no sense from a scum perspective. We've been through this already. Trading one for one with a suspicious VT etc __________ I want to stress to the thread again: XSEBT IS DT. He checked me N1 and has a red check. I am a miller. He checked toad N2 and has a green check. Yes, to reiterate, the host has told me DTs not only get roles and character names, they also get alignments. Toad is 99% town The only scenario where what I've written is not true is if both xsebt and toad are scum, but that makes so little sense given everything else that I'm not even going to bother with it (see point 3 above, for starters). | ||
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[quote=Lazermonkey]Long post on why he must be miller. Point 1 is purely based on WIFOM and is thus disregarded. Point 2 is such bad logic from his side (assuming that he is miller...). For example you say that people who was suspicious or voted you on D1 or D2 can't be your scum mates. LOL. You weren't close to getting lynched neither D1 nor D2 so why bring that up? Also I don't really see any telling with people wanting to lynch you right know. If there is any time you would want to bus, wouldn't that be when you got a red check? Point 3 is WIFOM once again. Point 4 is WIFOM. Point 5 is bad logic once again. It's not like you were the only reason for Toad to out Xsebt. Also arguing against someone who had ''guessed'' the name of Toads character correctly wouldn't look very good neither.[/quote] Point 1 is NOT wifom. It's the truth. There's no one in this game right now (marv doesn't count since he was originally BioSC) who would make a better GF choice than me, if I'm scum. To say otherwise is to suggest that I've played the entire game with the hope of being red-checked or something, and that that was the plan from pre-game, when role decisions were presumably made. Does that make sense to you? Point 2 is just to show that there's no clear scum strategy involved in my play, or any of my interactions with anyone or their interactions with me. Point 3 is absolutely NOT wifom. You can't wifom meta. I can't just turn on a switch that says "ok act like town". If I could, I would, you know, act like town when I'm scum. Read Bang Bang 2. Read Pick Your Poison. Read I Can't Believe It's not Themed. I don't play like town in those games, and I'm not town in those games. I'm sorry but I don't have the power to magically alter my meta. Very few people do. Point 4 is not really wifom either. I don't kill the people who are helping with the mislynch I'm pushing if I'm scum. On Point 5 you're sort of right. But the point remains that I don't put in the effort to get a confirmed DT in the game if I'm scum. That doesn't help my team. __________ I guess bottom line you can always invent a reason for why anything I write could be written by scum. Why my meta could be different, why I could have wanted goon over godfather, why I've been acting like I have. But at the end of the day to put all of that together is to assume that the most complex answer is right. It never is. It's always the simplest explanation. And the simplest explanation is that I'm miller. | ||
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On August 11 2012 05:53 talismania wrote: Let me respond to this bit: Point 1 is NOT wifom. It's the truth. There's no one in this game right now (marv doesn't count since he was originally BioSC) who would make a better GF choice than me, if I'm scum. To say otherwise is to suggest that I've played the entire game with the hope of being red-checked or something, and that that was the plan from pre-game, when role decisions were presumably made. Does that make sense to you? Point 2 is just to show that there's no clear scum strategy involved in my play, or any of my interactions with anyone or their interactions with me. Point 3 is absolutely NOT wifom. You can't wifom meta. I can't just turn on a switch that says "ok act like town". If I could, I would, you know, act like town when I'm scum. Read Bang Bang 2. Read Pick Your Poison. Read I Can't Believe It's not Themed. I don't play like town in those games, and I'm not town in those games. I'm sorry but I don't have the power to magically alter my meta. Very few people do. Point 4 is not really wifom either. I don't kill the people who are helping with the mislynch I'm pushing if I'm scum. On Point 5 you're sort of right. But the point remains that I don't put in the effort to get a confirmed DT in the game if I'm scum. That doesn't help my team. __________ I guess bottom line you can always invent a reason for why anything I write could be written by scum. Why my meta could be different, why I could have wanted goon over godfather, why I've been acting like I have. But at the end of the day to put all of that together is to assume that the most complex answer is right. It never is. It's always the simplest explanation. And the simplest explanation is that I'm miller. | ||
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I think best play here is lynch zephirdd, zeph flips town. Check Lazer. Then we have two confirmed scum. | ||
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I'm miller for sure. If zeph is scum (which I doubt) then dropula is town which makes no sense. I think dropula and lazer just outed themselves. | ||
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On August 11 2012 06:12 Lazermonkey wrote: Well either both me and Dropula is scum or bot of us is town. Exactly. Lynching zephirdd confirms both of you, as well as xsebt, as well as toad. | ||
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Still it's not going to work. If zeph flips town, then no way does a vig shoot me. | ||
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On August 11 2012 06:25 Hier wrote: What if Lazer is town? What if potential scum CD picked 2 town players to pretend to have investigations on. How about we lynch Talis today, announce that we are protecting Xsebt with medics, and have him investigate VE. If CD survives the night, that means he is mafia. If he dies, then we get a DT flip, confirming his reads. We then get Xsebt's read on VE, who doesn't die in the night. Sounds good? ahaha you should check with your qt before posting something like that =P | ||
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VisceraEyes CountDropula LazerMonkey Hier HassyBaby | ||
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oh well actually maybe you're town hahaha. (quicktopic, the forum boards used by the mafia teams to coordinate) | ||
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Yeah for sure. It would be like a crazy plan to get two members of your team confirmed in exchange for one. But it would take a lot of foresight and planning to pull off, not to mention the execution. So you'd deserve the win. | ||
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Also answer the question about lazer. | ||
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On August 11 2012 08:54 Hassybaby wrote: I'd be insulted but then I remembered that I don't care enough about opinions. Yeah, I did tell BC the situation, and he was cool about it. I'd quite like to leave it at that till the end of the game, if that I don't exactly have much time to read up so I'll do my best about the situation. It looks like it' between talis and zeph, right? Not an insult I just think you might be scum | ||
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Jingle-someone VE-someone (CD?) Toad-someone If I'm still alive tomorrow I expect to be mason'd. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Godfather The Godfather has the ability to decide what role he will appear to be when a Detective role checks him. It may be any role and must be chosen Day 1 or he will default to Townie role. After your role is chosen you may not change it after that; decisions are final for the whole game. Put yourselves in scum's shoes for a minute. What's the coolest use you can think of for this GF variant? Now look at Count Dropula. My theory: Count Dropula is the scum godfather. He made himself appear to any DT check as another DT. He then buses all out one of his teammates. Then he claims a red check on that person, and a green check on another member of his team (Lazermonkey). Even better, a third member (maybe even a fourth) is there pressuring the teammate to be bussed. That's VE. I'm actually about 90% sure this is correct. Unfortunately, I have this red check hanging over my shoulder, which means none of you will believe me until I'm dead. So be it. But please remember this idea once this happens. I'm the only one I think that has any clue what's going on at the moment. Right now, it's 11 townies, 4 scum. If I'm vig'd (best case scenario for scum) it will be 8 townies, 4 scum tomorrow. This will be the hardest day for scum, as they need to force two mislynches in order to win from here on out. They've done something pretty cute but they aren't out of the woods yet. They probably think they are with at least two members semi-confirmed and another one that can get a lot of cred from zeph. Too bad for them I really am a miller :-) ______________ Next important things: Zephirdd was a goon. I am supposedly a goon. (I'm not, but let's run with it). So that means that the scum team is something like this: GF + Mason + Goon + Goon + RB / (RB and Mason). Remember to keep this in mind. It will be irrelevant soon once I'm flipped miller, but always remember that there's at least one, probably two scum masons out there. Also remember that Toad is confirmed town through xsebt's check. That leaves jingle, hassy, and VE. And once I'm dead, it should be clear that VE is certainly scum. Nevertheless jingle, scum are going to try for your mislynch after me. Be prepared. Now here's what's going to happen night-action wise. You may think "How could CD get away with a fake DT claim and be able to explain his continued survival?" Well it's pretty simple. CD will wake up tomorrow, and he will claimed Roleblocked. He will claim this from now until the end of the game. (the actual RB will be thrown away on another scum). What's critical then is that xsebt survive. If I'm scum in their position, I put two night kills on xsebt and gamble that there's only one doctor in the game, or that the real doctors protect CD. Sadly, given how poorly our medics have performed thus far, I imagine they will completely ignore this: MEDICS, PROTECT XSEBT AND DO NOT PROTECT CD We need to ensure that scum feel compelled to use their RB within their team. If they think they can get away with CD surviving AND can RB xsebt the rest of the game then we must prove them wrong. Of course it feels kinda futile to say that knowing that the medics aren't going to listen to me but whatever. xsebt, check VE EVEN IF YOU THINK I'M SCUM, CHECK VE Why? At least one mason must be scum. There are three left alive that don't already have a green check. If VE checks red, great. If VE checks green, great. Hell check jinglehell or hassy if you want. I just know that VE is going to check red, so you might as well spare yourself some time. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 11 2012 06:11 Lazermonkey wrote: Point 3. How can you not control your own play? It's entirely possible that you would try to play away from your scum meta if you rolled scum in order to be considered less scummy. Just having a skim through lazer's filter and wanted to briefly respond to this. For reference, point 3 in my "why I'm miller" argument is that I can't play this actively and this aggressively and loosely as scum. Yes, Lazer. I cannot control my own play. I can't do it. I've tried and it doesn't work. When I know the answers (as scum) I can't pretend that I don't. _______ As an aside, Lazer's filter is pretty good. If he is scum which I still can't get away from then he's been doing a great job giving himself distance between him and every other player that I think is scum. Even keeping his vote on VE, that was well-done. Look to see how his view on VE evolves from this point forward in the game. Does he do what he did for dropula? Go from calling him out to "oh nvm I think this guy is town"? A red flag should go up in that case. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Interactions with jinglehell: + Show Spoiler + On August 03 2012 10:51 Zephirdd wrote: rofl. And with that I'm off to sleep. It's actually getting late and I have classes early in the morning. When everyone posts, I'll find something more useful to talk about. (eh I'd say this stuff is early on so hard to take much from it) Posts concerning me (talismania): + Show Spoiler + On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote: "not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing? wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them. VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role. Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum. Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions. prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread. Everything else is a null tell. I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't. Deal with it. On August 04 2012 05:43 Zephirdd wrote: So I decided to actually read stuff properly now. Talismania first post containing "Glasse" is: (That was after hopeless1der voted him) His second post is exactly the same. The next instance is asking toad his instance on 4 people including Glasse Then he mirrors a player that has shown a case, throw a bunch of unnecessary town reads(nobody asked that, why do it) and after some fluff he says Glasse was "hilariously obviously scummy" without giving true reasoning(ie. giving a post and explaining why that was a scum post). Then he is rolefishing "for his own amusement". Hmm maybe people weren't wrong about questioning his plans on the beginning. On August 04 2012 07:02 Zephirdd wrote: I made a mini-case on talismania if you are interested. When wbg instaclaims he is masoned with VE, and then later with Erandorr, my initial thought is that he is outing masons because it's likely that masons are scum. Simple as that. My notes on prplhz are "baiting". I don't find him disruptive and he is making sense. Will re-read tho. On August 04 2012 08:45 Zephirdd wrote: talismania is the scum read for me, see my previous mini-case. I suppose I should vote him, considering he never addresses any accusations against him by anyone. There should be a couple scums on the "afk" list. Hier's case on Erandorr has some ground, but I'd say talismania is worse than him imo. idk VE, who is scum and why do you think so? On August 05 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote: Hm, thats a lot of shit to skim through since my last post. Holy shit. erandorr/wbg logs are just a crapload of fuckity fuck. ghost_404(I see wat you did ther rastaban) was replaced by the one guy that I found to be scum last game. then there is both talismania and prplhz cases, but nobody cared enough about CountDropula I guess. talismania's filter - summarized nicely by BKEXE - is terrible. He was helpful during the "discussion that everyone can take any instance and still be town" phase, but not after. I am not sure about prplhz... I guess he is a decent lynch tho, he did go afk out of nowhere, and last time I saw him doing that he was scum. He's not the kind of guy who just "goes" away. Well, consolidating votes won't hurt, right? I still want to go back to CD on the future. On August 09 2012 10:34 Zephirdd wrote: rofl this vigi is bad VE, your post is funny. You think talis is most likely to be scum, but you want to lynch me? So let me get this straight, scumteam is VE+CD+Talismania+(insert 2 random players here)? Also, people arguing against wbg, learn something: LOGIC > YOU. A player has all right to get mad when he is trying to use reasoning and all you do is shit. (fun read if you think we're actually scum together hahaha. It's like I was the one that was supposed to bus him when instead I pretty much read him as town since after mid-way through day one when I thought he was scummy). Interactions with Glasse: + Show Spoiler + On August 05 2012 10:17 Zephirdd wrote: Fucking. Bullshit. Your latest thoughts on prplhz were AKA. calling him scum. And then you come with a "It was to be expected" bullshit? Fucking no. You have a terribly small filter with almost no real content. You won't just come and say like if you knew he was town. (kinda makes glasse look townie I guess?) The CountDropula saga: + Show Spoiler + On August 04 2012 08:59 Zephirdd wrote: I just noticed this gem. Finally that paid off. Let me explain it to you. It was 5min into the game. I didn't even bother casting those votes on the voting thread. Why? Because they didn't matter, and I'd change them later anyway. It's not that I don't care, it's just that by creating a stupid vote, you take reactions from people. People like you, who is trying to take something as silly as that as an excuse to vote me, when in fact there is nothing there that makes me scum. I'm not afraid of having opinions change, as no town should be. My opinions did change quickly - and that's pretty damn common for a town player. You are creating bullshit reasoning to jump into the wagon easily. Nice first post scum. ##unvote (talismania) ##vote CountDropula On August 04 2012 23:37 Zephirdd wrote: what the flying fuck. If there is any day that lynching a troll player is good, it's day 1. Even if the information is low, the fact is that we get rid of a controversial, harmful player. Okay, people on this town are CRAZY. I don't know where you guys are getting that wbg is playing scum. This is motherfucking wherebugsgo we are talking about. You know, the one bugs that would destroy everyone here if he was scum. Do you guys really think you found a scum on him so fucking early into the game? Whoever is talking about "veterans" list, I really don't get it. The vets aren't just VE/prpl/bugs/erandorr. If anything, there is also me, sloosh, BKEXE(where are you bro?), Toad, talismania, ghost_403(another one I'm yet to hear from)... We aren't new players. We have plenty of experience with TL already. Why would you go into process of elimination only on these first four? That's ridiculous. Secondly, every single argument is the same argument over and over: town arguing with town that the game should be played certain way. Nothing wbg has said is scum-indicative. He outed 2 masons, where a scum could simply hide them and kill them. The counter argument to that? Pure fucking WIFOM. VE wouldn't breadcumb wbg, that's fucking bullshit. Even if he did, his death wouldn't instantly point towards wbg because there are reasons to shoot VE n1(he is a vet for instance). You guys are CRAZY. Second point? what? "He doesn't feel comfortable dealing with pressure"? Pff You mean the fact that I insta-voted JH? Pretty much because he was the first to attack my random vote on prplhz. That's all to make people react, and see if stupid scum will fall for it. Pretty much the same as when someone claims vanilla townie on his first post of the game. Geez, so easy to catch newb scum like you :> You are newb scum right? On August 06 2012 23:37 Zephirdd wrote: 'sup folks. Busy sunday yesterday. Didn't read much, so I didn't post. I'm still re-reading some stuff, but I'll post some of my thoughts right now. The obvious one, CountDropula: 1. Uses terrible arguments to jump into my bandwagon: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=22#436 He is using my random votings from 3-5minutes into the day as reasoning to vote me. He is using my change of instances based on someone's else opinion as reasoning to vote me. Neither of these are scum traits, nor do they push scum agendas. It's entirely reasonable that a town player would change opinions within two posts, given that someone gives the proper arguments. Random voting someone for the sake of random voting, 5 minutes into the day, is pretty much a bait for scum. A real town would look at that and realize it's not a reason to push someone; It means NOTHING action-wise. Yet, he uses it to make my wagon gain strength. Granted, he never voted me; which is even worse: if you have a suspicion on someone, why would you not vote him? 2. Appeal to emotion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#459 (From Ace's thread on how-to-play-scum: a good scum trait is provoking emotion out of town) I don't know where did he pull that I had a burst of emotion. Besides, why bring it up at all? Again, it's one of these traits that don't determine someone's alignment - in fact, I'd argue it's much more likely that a town player show a burst of emotion than a scum player. Then he pulls some bullshit "You never answered XXX" when I answered everything. And I even said more a few posts later. He never counter-argued. Then he calls for some "concrete defense" when he nevers says what about my defense is not concrete. Simply put, he is throwing loaded(and VERY loaded) sentences to try and break me down. How the f* does someone give a "concrete defense" on this game? Fucking no one can do that without being an Innocent Child or confirmed-town-dayvig. There is also these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=40#800 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=41#802 These posts have no purpose except bringing emotion into the table and - hopefully for him - numbing people's judgement. This is pretty much a scum move. 3. Hypocrisy, blending in: This makes him look good right, he is calling for people to post... He has two freakingly terrible posts that only talk about one subject and is calling for people to be active That's trying to blend in without putting effort into the game. He is a lurker himself and is calling lurkers out. The more he post, the scummier he looks to me. Well, his first post is red as fuck already, but he is just being worse over time. So yeah, I'll keep reading stuff but my vote is on him already. ##Vote CountDropula Please don't ignore this guy. On August 07 2012 08:46 Zephirdd wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 07:25 CountDropula wrote: 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? Yes. I define "level-headed and nooby" as taking an honest and simple look at information and raising a question. Here is a post with this tone from NMMII. It's directed at Zeph. This is how he responds. No outburst or finger pointing. Zeph shows lots of discomfort when dealing with this kind of tone in Mad Men though. 2. You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). A single thread post isn't all that visible, but voting thread posts? Can't bury those too well. And the frequent "typos"? Smiley among bold text = cant miss it. I got lots of reactions from that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. -He is not pro-town. Not at all. No one thought I was a serious issue; he tried to make a case out of one post and is still trying to make something out of nothing. -And that "mini case" on you? His insta-vote of you turns into an actual case even though he says it means nothing? -And posting that list of lurkers. Noncommittal. 3. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. No quotes, no nothing. This is a lazy post, and there is very little explanation. The "rationale" is all really broad statements. Super broad. 4. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The problem with the case is its inconsistency with Zeph's town posts. in NMMII As town, he wanted cold facts. Now he is emotional, and there is simply not enough evidence in his case on me to realistically be as sure as he is. 5. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. The difference is that in NMM he wants great proof before acting. He does not operate like that here. 1. Check out who you quoted. Check out the timing of the quote. Check out the discussion going on. That guy is Bluelightz, the Unreadable. You can't determine his alignment until it's too late for either side. That was a discussion about policy lynches. I am not accusing anyone(although the "you scum? part" is another example of a bait). We are discussing policy lynches and useless stuff to get the thread going. On that game, I realized my opening post was terrible - hence the random voting this game, if you care. There is nothing to attack. No one is using terrible reasoning to create suspicion. Besides, Bluelightz is a friend; Who are you? This is your first game here, right? 2. I made a correct case on that same game on prplhz. He had three posts. You telling me I can't make a case out of one post? Besides, the case is only being incremented every time you post more; That's because you're posting like scum. I decided my mini-case has less importance than you. The lurker list is a null tell at its best, why do you care about it? Why are you searching for stuff to accuse me of? 3. Let me requote myself. I hate defending other people. That's their job. Of course I'm not posting fuckload of quotes or whatnot. IIRC that specific post was made because people wanted to know why I didn't have any real scum read at the time. 4. Sometimes context is essential. All the FACTS discussion on NMM2 was due to Sinensis making a terrible case on me and getting me angry(hence why scum likes to provoke emotion). You even quoted my emotional burst against him on that game. Difference here is that I see your AtE from the outside; My judgement isn't clouded by emotions. The fact here is that all your accusations are scummy accusations. 5. Oh do I want great proof before acting? I made a fucking case out of three posts, and the case was correct. Granted, out of policy I fucked up that game; That just means I have troubles holding confidence over a case. I won't fall for this trap here. Also, I guess someone from NMM2 is scum here right? Either that or you did a pretty good job in checking my meta; Too bad you're using meta in a terrible way. If I missed any accusations that you think are worth responding too(aka. if you want to bury yourself more) feel free to ask again. It's been a REALLY busy monday and I'm really not in the mood of answering every tidbit that comes out of you. On August 07 2012 12:18 Zephirdd wrote: Count, reading your posts is like watching a game of Yugioh. OH BUT YOU ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!!!!!!!1 what the fuck? First, how the fuck can you tell degrees of emotions in a post? What the fuckity fucking fuck is that fucking sentence, seriously. I am angry when I'm angry, I am calm when I'm calm. Believe it or not, but my emotions aren't entirely based on the game - if I'm angry IRL, I'll post angry here. If I feel calm, I'll answer calmly. Obviously, you took the calm I had with this convoluted post. You didn't own me. You pissed me off. "owning" me would be lynching me and then escaping from the counter-lynch somehow(because it would warrant a counter-lynch). Oh, and I can play your stupid game too. Next time you answer me you will either tell me I'm breaking and therefore going away from my town meta, or you will ignore me altogether. And because I told you this, you are going to do something completely different AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS PLANNING ALL ALONG HAHAHAHA Jesus christ. You don't control my fear. You are indeed pissing me off however. Why do you resort to emotions so fucking much? Because you can't use logic against me, because that's the road a scum has to take to numb someone's judgement. Because I caught you and you want to make sure I am not in my mind to catch your buddies. Fucking no. In case it wasn't obvious, I'll give you your analysis. + Show Spoiler [analysis] + CountDropula does nothing but AtE He also creates bullshit scenarios with LOL U DOIN WAT I KNEW U WOULD DO bullshit. That comes from the first "it was a trap" by him His accusations are scummy because they hold no ground; When counter-argued all he says is "LOL U DOIN WAT I TOLD U TO" ... You know, there was one time I got so fucking pissed off. It was Sinensis. Last game. You quoted the post. I hope you play on my game when it's up. I'll make sure your death will be painfully horrible on the flavor. Yours and Sinensis. I can't stand this U DOIN WHAT I EXPECTED posts. From you and Sinensis. And it's obvious that you copied exactly what Sinensis did that game in order to piss me off. Are you Sinensis' smurf? If not, did you do that on purpose? Interesting. I missed in there earlier that Zephirdd also has correctly identified Count Dropula as Sinensis' smurf. I think their intention was to shit up the thread and create a lot of drama. Maybe distract some from the case I had made on VE? Ok perhaps I shouldn't think that highly of myself. Posts concerning VE: + Show Spoiler + On August 03 2012 22:16 Zephirdd wrote: I'm not part of the mason circles I guess /sad Toad, why insta-voting VE? I know you had some suspicion of him, but did you consider that VE sounded overly cautious because he is a mason? That's what I get at least. Erandorr, why masoning someone who just outted his mason? On August 03 2012 23:53 Zephirdd wrote: Erandorr, so you think wbg is a scum that outed VE(presumably town mason) for no reason, so you (presumably town mason) mason'd the scum that outed the other mason? Wat. I do agree on your instance of "why would you defend him" tho. I still don't get why would you mason him. On August 04 2012 04:45 Zephirdd wrote: "not contributing"? What do you want me to do, pull bullshit out of my ass the way you are doing? wbg outing masons is a town move because he believes there is scum in the masons; He is outing them in order to pressure them. VE is town because his posting lines up with cautious blue that wants to protect his supposedly powerful mason role. Erandorr is dumb, but I'd say he wouldn't be that dumb as scum. Talismania's posts made sense for me when he posted them, and I still see them as possible town opinions. prplhz has been baiting scum with certain actions, while making sense with others. He hasn't caused chaos and is doing a good job in keeping the pace of the thread. Everything else is a null tell. I hate defending other people. That's their job. I only defend someone when I feel I have someone better to lynch. I don't. Deal with it. On August 08 2012 09:39 Zephirdd wrote: Well, nobody sees what I see on CD I agree it's a waste of time to talk about him. Also, fuck this VE wagon. Erandorr is full of shit. VE(as well as WBG) have been using logic more than anyone out there --' Soooo yeah. ##unvote ##vote Erandorr On August 08 2012 09:58 Zephirdd wrote: Sorry. VE, as well as wbg, as well as Hier. it's a bigger game than I'm used to, I may forget some peoples names >_>" On August 09 2012 10:34 Zephirdd wrote: rofl this vigi is bad VE, your post is funny. You think talis is most likely to be scum, but you want to lynch me? So let me get this straight, scumteam is VE+CD+Talismania+(insert 2 random players here)? Also, people arguing against wbg, learn something: LOGIC > YOU. A player has all right to get mad when he is trying to use reasoning and all you do is shit. On August 10 2012 07:15 Zephirdd wrote: Why not VE? Wouldn't it be incredibly convenient if Toad just happened to find a liar while masoning someone, and that lie just happen to implicate talismania? You seem keen in saving your buddy and voting for me while busing him. What is bugging me still however is how Toad suddenly can't talk about the mysterious DT. Toad, did you ask him for breadcumbs and reasoning on his checks? Did he explain why would he check you, claimed mason, when the OP clearly states that DTs check roles? If you can confirm the guy is a DT(even if you only say "np I guess he is legit") I'll support you on this one. Pieces seem to be starting to match... Interesting that he goes from having VE as a town read (pretty much the only one he really talks about early game) D1, considers him the only person using logic D2, but then forgets all about that at the start of D3 and now VE is suddenly a part of a conspiracy with me. Most importantly, how zephirdd responded to being lynched today: On August 11 2012 07:06 Zephirdd wrote: meh, I don't even care anymore. This town... there is a reason wbg raged so hard. I'll vote the one and only scum ofc, just so I'm not seen as breaking the rules. whatever. (He then votes CountDropula for some reason. His best move as scum or town is to vote me but he got lazy). On August 11 2012 07:13 Zephirdd wrote: Many flying fucks were given this game huh. I'm out. Going to movies. gnight guys, glhf And that's it. Obviously this looks fine if you think I'm scum too (he doesn't want to try to push the lynch onto me in that case). But if I ever end up dying then you should all realize that there's no way he goes down this easily when he could have fought to get me lynched first. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 11 2012 15:00 Toadesstern wrote: don't listen to talis please :3 <3 toad. Toad will you promise me one thing? When I'm dead, re-read some of my large posts? Especially on VE. You remember when you were hosting SSB64? I was town and I was going to be killed, but it meant scum would when the game? How did I respond? Here's a hint: you're the HiroPro of this game. ps you've played with me as scum before - if you actually think I'm anywhere remotely capable of playing how I've played this game as scum then you've given me way too much credit. And I don't think you would since you saw firsthand what my scum play looks like. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 12 2012 04:34 Toadesstern wrote: talis has already explained it somewhere, do I really need to type out everything twice? No marv is right - CD initially posted that he wanted me lynched and zephirdd shot, or, failing a shot, lynched the next day. In response to lazer as regards the timing of this whole affair: First, I don't think your plan was to lynch zeph yesterday. It was to lynch me, then zeph on D4. That's what CD posted. But it was pretty clearly better to do it the other way around from town's pov, which you guys maybe didn't anticipate. Regardless, a fake DT claim will lose steam after 3 nights. If you get a red check N1, waiting til D4 to bring it up seems strange to me. Especially since CD was going about pushing zephirdd in the worst way possible as a townie, almost assuring that no one would pay attention (contrast the puppet-master routine with what sinensis was doing in the beginning in attacking zephirdd). Another factor influencing the timing of the bus and bringing the plan out was that I was starting to gain ground, and VE was starting to lose it. After I posted the most damning case in this thread on VE, the next things that happen are that lazer makes a giant post discrediting me, and then sinensis posts his Big Reveal on zephirdd, completely sidetracking things. _______________ If people still don't buy it: Why does sinensis check lazermonkey N2? His stated reason is that he wanted to check someone that people thought was townie in order to bolster his credibility when he made his redcheck claim. That. Does. Not. Make. Sense. Contrast that with how xsebt played his N1 redcheck. Instead, he checked a mason, thinking that he was allowed to talk to masons (instead he ended up breaking the rules). Upon getting the greencheck on toad, he then sent toad the information. that's a perfectly logical way to play out an N2 check with a red N1 check in the bag. Not only do you get another check, but you also eliminate scum possibilities from the masons. The point I'm trying to make is that the results of N2 check don't actually have any bearing on the "credibility" of the claiming DT. A real DT just makes another check on someone suspicious. If he gets two reds, then fine. He posts that. The credibility is tested by the lynch results. Why does a real DT think the way sinensis has posted? "People aren't going to believe my red check if I don't have a green check on someone people think is town too" What? Furthermore, no one was talking about lazer as scum, but no one was really talking about him as town either (aside from me, that I can recall). He was flying under the radar. If those truly were CD's motivations, why didn't he pick strongandbig? SnB was also suspicious of zephirdd, if I remember right. And everyone publicly thought he was town, evidenced by the fact that toad and I directed medic protects at him. None of it adds up. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 12 2012 03:53 BroodKingEXE wrote: I doubt they'll kill a DT due to the whole fake claim mixup. Too much doubt in peoples minds. Did you mason anyone? They almost have to try. If both DTs survive, then either xsebt has a real check or sinensis has a fake check. The other is roleblocked. This puts scum in a bit of a bind. The only real check that scum can fake at this point is on other members of their team, meaning that once the gig is up, they're all done, which dissuades them from RBing xsebt. On the other hand, they can't risk xsebt actually getting a real check, on, say, VE. It should also be noted that VE has already claimed his character name in the thread (Lane Pryce). If for some reason I'm wrong about VE (I'm not) then he'd be the only townie on whom a fake check can be made. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Reasons: -CD read NMM2. townies, especially new players (which is what he claims to be, btw, meaning that he's lying) do not read past games. scum don't either. No one really does. Everyone just references games they played in themselves. Therefore CD is someone who was in that game. Looking through the player list, that pretty much means he's either bluelightz or sinensis, and his writing style matches sinensis'. Same kind of sentence structure, etc. Also there's the part where zeph called him sinensis and zeph knew he was getting bussed. (Combine that with sinensis' "one step towards the bus stop for you..." that Hier pointed out and it seems clear that scum's goal is not only to win, but to do so by humiliating the town so that they can point out later how obvious the whole thing was and how everyone was so bad they missed it.) | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 11 2012 23:25 marvellosity wrote: hmm that's true. would be almost as worthless as Probe's check on Wiggles in LV. Not entirely true. sinensis is almost certainly GF. But if VE is off the table, why not hassybaby? Hassy's not going to be scum. I'm pretty sure jingle is town but it would hurt to confirm him either. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 11 2012 05:44 CountDropula wrote: The pressing nature of the game... Means my plans must be revealed Before the time is right. What do you think about that, lazermonkey? :-) And to repost this from Hier because it needs to be seen because holy shit lol: On August 09 2012 10:49 CountDropula wrote: Well, preparing my play has been... Consuming much of my energy, and it has been so long in the making that it simply must be done justice! Apparently the actors refuse to wear anything but red... Ah yes, there is the matter of my vote... ##Vote: Zephirdd One step towards a win for the audience, One step towards the bus stop for you... Seriously, what townie DT puts that line in there? There are tons of idioms in the english language that express the idea of something coming to the end or being finished. But he goes with "One step towards the bus stop for you..." with the reference I guess to zephirdd getting on bus out of town or something? It doesn't even make sense with his puppeteer act, if you still believe CD is a new eccentric player and not sinensis. Then you say "One step towards the curtain closing..." or something. "One step towards your swan song..." etc. And it doesn't fit at all with "One step towards a win for the audience" semantically, despite the phrasing indicating that the two lines are a couplet. Plus the suggestive ellipsis. I mean I don't know how to spell it out any more and maybe I don't need to. Just look at that lol. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
if you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. I got nothing to lose in speaking the truth, lazer. :-) | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Do you believe in lynch-all-liars? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
1. VE. VE is scum. I nail him here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=73#1442 Links to previous cases of mine, all of which are good, are included in that post. 2. Sinensis. CD is sinensis. Sinensis is GF-appears-as-DT. I've gone through that earlier as well. 3. Lazermonkey. If sinensis is scum, so must be Lazer. Lazer's filter is interesting reading. He got stuck in a peculiar position when it came to VE. I think scum thoguht VE was going to get lynched the day I came after him. VE himself seemed to give up. But then they actutally counted the votes and realized that they could survive with erandorr. Lazer also has an interesting reversal on CD. 4. Hassybaby? I think his logs with toad are very illuminating and toad's remarks on them are insightful. However he's hard to read given that he hasn't done much (and still hasn't, despite being back for a spell now). I also think it's likely that scum have two masons. Lurky town: MrZentor - His vote switching between erandorr and VE... dunno. He also calls out VE and lazer... again dunno. I guess he could conceivably be scum if hassy isn't, but the limited evidence suggests he isn't. Glasse - I have no good reason for why I think glasse is town other than that he isn't someone I think is scum. A good DT check target down the line. Hier - Pretty sure he's town given that he genuinely didn't know that qt meant quicktopic and his doing actual work searching through CD's filter to find that nice quote. BKE - thought he was scum for a while because he soft-defended VE but since then he's been attacking VE and was voting for him yesterday over me. Hopeless1der - I think he's town for how he's called out VE. He's actually probably a decent candidate for a DT check later as well. He looks into zeph D1, initially finding him scummy but then finding him town, for instance. Still gotta go with town though. Synystyr - completely forgot about this guy. Uh I think a DT check wouldn't be bad on him N5 or N6 if the DTs make it that far. Other town: Marv - marv is town I think. Don't have a good reason why but I don't see why a scum replacement hops into the game and the first thing he says is that he thinks I'm town. Jinglehell - jingle is likely town or he fooled me too. I got nothing but townie vibes from him in our conversations. A good DT check to confirm him. Confirmed town: Xsebt - xsebt is DT, for reasons already discussed. Toad - toad is confirmed town because xsebt has a green check on him. And everything else as well suggests that he's not GF. _________________ Other things: don't forget to ask about the logs between toad and his mason partner, and especially those between VE and his mason partner. Sinensis requested to talk to VE yesterday during N2, so it will be interesting to see if they followed through on that plan and managed to put together any good fake conversations. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 12 2012 07:30 Hier wrote: Oh, I kind of started to assume a VG has more than one shot, considering nobody claimed. Also, as somebody else pointed out, OP doesn't state that the VG has only one shot. But I guess we will see in 2.5 hours. No it's smart for the vig not to claim, even if they've used up their shots. Now that we're entering the later stages of the game, having a vig claim in your pocket can be very useful (at lylos, for instance). | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
It is common for mafia (and town circles if PMs are allowed) to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Please be mindful that other players may be more tech savvy than you and they may attempt impersonate members of your team or attempt to infiltrate your chat. You use these media at your own risk. That's why I look for QTs - I assume that it is permissible because of this statement in the rules. Nevertheless, I've never been able to find one until this game, and I didn't check for it til after I died. Presumably this is because zephirdd messed up and didn't make it a "hidden" topic. I was also able to find the most recent newbie mini, but that's probably because the game was over and someone posted the link on the forums (which google then finds and makes indexable). As far as cheating goes, I'm actually really curious to find out what zorkmid did since he's the only guy that did manage to get himself modkilled lol. ______________ As far as the game goes, I'm happy I nailed VE. I'm a bit sad more of the lurkers didn't realize how strong that case was until I was gone. Credit to marv for finishing the job and for catching out jingle. Marv drew enough attention to him that the others read his logs and found the slips, allowing the rest of the thread to come on board. Other notes: Hilarious that three of the strongest townies were millers wtf. And no medics?? Scum actually didn't play that great =/ Hassy and synystyr were non-factors while still appearing scummy. VE couldn't play to his town meta at all. Zeph got redchecked so no criticism there (I thought zeph was town because his town meta is to act scummy and he was acting scummy lol). Jingle played fine until he mistakenly thought he had to overreact to marv to appear townie. gotta run now but I have a bit more to say about the real reason town and scum were weak this game: people failing to control their emotions/frustrations about a game on the internet. | ||
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