Mad Men Mafia - Page 3

Act IV: (Continued)
What is a well reasoned argument?

Somehow I manage to convince bke to go from :


To this:

With a pants on head faked dt theory. How in the hell am I more credible than a redcheck?
THIS MOVE DOES NOT MAKE SENSE! THIS IS THE EXCUSE TO BUS VE!

BroodWarKingEXE

Not exactly a standard lurker with only two pages to his filter. BC has already been notified of his activity issues and he was cleared, so activity is not a determining factor in BKE's scumminess.

Step 1: Find the first post that seems to have any content:


1)BKE has had no impact on the game at all at this point. All he could have possibly done was read the thread. He plans to start making connection theories following the DAY 1 voting so far. This is quite possibly the worst way to look for scum that early in the game. Those votes could be random or OMGUS or pressure. Not the most convincing plan of action.

Talis responds to BKE to point out his lack of a filter. The entire exchange is quoted below:


2)BKE's "description" of talis' filter is blatantly wrong and just shrugs off any activity issues he might have as "RL issues" (to be fair, this seems to have been true) and goes on to focus suspicions on Talis for his setup/character questions. Read Talis' 2nd and 3rd page of his filter. It shows talis trying to get information into the thread from various players, and yes, asking inane setup questions. It also shows a huge post (2nd page) of his current reads that quite frankly...how do you miss that?
BKE didn't want to get into any discussions, he wanted to get out as fast as possible and shift suspicion back on to Talis.

---

The Erandorr Ordeal

3)All three of those players were town. He agrees that prplhz has a decent case (or an agreeable case, whatever) on Glasse but BKE has no intention of chasing after it. Instead he wants to go after Erandorr? Somehow WBG's feud with Erand makes bugs town but erand scum because "Erandorr initiated a shitstorm". Bugs was just as accountable in that feud.

Later on, BKE posts his suspicions on Erandorr:


4)Point 1: Ernadorr did NOT out himself. Bugs did that for him. He expected him to, but once again Eran DID NOT OUT HIMSELF.
Point 2: Nonsense? How can you determine that eran picked one of those two reasons? In the explanation that bke JUST QUOTED, erand explains how masoning bugs was a gambit that succeeded in revealing bugs as scum. The logs are inconsequential to Erand's goal in masoning bugs.
Point 3: Primarily OMGUS.

---

The short-lived battle of "Do I like VE? (Circa The Erandorr Ordeal)
5)Bke flip flops on soft defending/accusing VE, literally two posts apart in his filter:





Again, bugs outed erandorr. The fuck...

Return to Erandorr
This point got followed up by wbg:

However, (as I've noted already: + Show Spoiler + 6)bke doesn't point this lapse out until AFTER the lynch. He works to make someone ELSE look scummy for the mislynch: surprise, surprise its VisceraEyes. Not only that, but he tries to hand off the accountability back onto bugs for his ragequit/selfvoting.

---

7)Draws attention to Zentor's voting.


Specifically:
+ Show Spoiler +

Just kind of WIFOM's the issue and draws no real conclusion other than Zentor didn't follow his own scumread.
You don't say! All of one line regarding VE? That's an ironclad reason to vote someone, why in the world would he think twice?!
Seriously, go read Zentor's filter. Find how many times he "suspects" VE before this point in time.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668&user=137099&user=137099
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't know Zentor's scum meta. I believe that if you want to use meta as a case, the onus is on you to make your case, not make a vague statement and expect it to take.

---

Zentor's meta is now simply "tricky" instead of the scum it was earlier. Still clinging to the flipflop vote from Zentor, he connects him to zeph's flip strictly by the votes and nothing else. Very weak.

---

[8/6/2012 4:49:57 PM] Jingle: hey howsit.
[8/6/2012 4:50:01 PM] talismania: hihi
[8/6/2012 4:50:07 PM] talismania: hawaii?
[8/6/2012 4:50:14 PM] Jingle: huh?
[8/6/2012 4:50:20 PM] talismania: oh nm they say howzit there
[8/6/2012 4:50:54 PM] Jingle: nah, I'm in Texas.
[8/6/2012 4:51:27 PM] Jingle: Yeah, I wasn't even expecting to make it this far without getting outed in the current climate, so if you feel the need, I'll understand.
[8/6/2012 4:52:47 PM] talismania: indeed I don't see what difference it will make
[8/6/2012 4:52:54 PM] talismania: as far as NKs go you should be lower priority than toad, for instance
[8/6/2012 4:53:12 PM] talismania: you said you thought it was weird that biosc didn't out you?
[8/6/2012 4:53:22 PM] Jingle: Yeah, given how things went yesterday overall
[8/6/2012 4:53:36 PM] Jingle: I asked him not to, but with the way the day went...
[8/6/2012 4:53:54 PM] Jingle: not outing me ends up looking bad for me
[8/6/2012 4:54:08 PM] talismania: I dunno about that
[8/6/2012 4:54:12 PM] talismania: how do you figure?
[8/6/2012 4:54:44 PM] Jingle: well, all the discussion about "scum won't use their masons if they haven't yet"
[8/6/2012 4:54:54 PM] Jingle: people are already trying to WIFOM masons hard
[8/6/2012 4:55:16 PM] Jingle: and somehow I'm the stealth mason after all the discussion on the subject yesterday
[8/6/2012 4:55:32 PM] talismania: meh I don't think it makes you look bad
[8/6/2012 4:55:48 PM] Jingle: But then, I'm not overly concerned about town scrutiny, since I tend to be able to explain my thought process.
[8/6/2012 4:56:38 PM] Jingle: that's why I decided to mason you. You don't just insta-drop reads at first pressure, but you look at more than one option
[8/6/2012 4:56:47 PM] Jingle: I've got a town read on you right now.
[8/6/2012 4:57:02 PM] talismania: likewise
[8/6/2012 4:57:08 PM] talismania: I'm like 70% town on you
[8/6/2012 4:57:08 PM] Jingle: and wanted to see how you feel about stuff without giant crosstalk and interference
[8/6/2012 4:57:34 PM] talismania: ok well shoot away
[8/6/2012 4:58:07 PM] Jingle: well first, do you actually think I'm crazy on Eran, or do you just think there's bigger fish to fry?
[8/6/2012 4:58:32 PM] Jingle: I really don't like what I'd already seen, but he's starting to drop off the map since the lynch
[8/6/2012 4:58:49 PM] talismania: well to be perfectly honest I wrote him off as town fairly early and haven't really seriously revisited it
[8/6/2012 4:58:59 PM] talismania: however now might be a good time to do so
[8/6/2012 4:59:13 PM] talismania: the reason I thought he was town was that he masoned bugs I think for the reason he said
[8/6/2012 4:59:27 PM] talismania: like, him masoning bugs in that spot, as most people pointed out isn't a great play for scum or town really
[8/6/2012 5:01:00 PM] Jingle: yeah. idk. it seemed strange to me. I've been trying to avoid it coming up in thread, because it sounds like a copout, and don't want to use it as an excuse, but it's hard to catch a handle on some of the players. Posts in the newbie games were usually more comprehensive, with less familiarity between people, so some things that seem scummy to me might just be damn innocent.
[8/6/2012 5:01:39 PM] Jingle: I masoned Bio yesterday because we'd already played once together, so it seemed like a good place to start.
[8/6/2012 5:02:05 PM] talismania: ah gotcha
[8/6/2012 5:02:20 PM] talismania: ok so the other thing that made me think eran was town was his eagerness to skype with bugs
[8/6/2012 5:02:26 PM] talismania: that bugs mentioned a few times
[8/6/2012 5:02:40 PM] Jingle: skype is a townie type thing?
[8/6/2012 5:02:41 PM] talismania: I don't understand that as scum
[8/6/2012 5:02:47 PM] talismania: well not necessarily I suppose
[8/6/2012 5:02:48 PM] Jingle: why, because it's faster paced?
[8/6/2012 5:02:52 PM] Jingle: harder to fake?
[8/6/2012 5:02:58 PM] talismania: it's faster paced, you don't have as much time to think on your feet if you're scum etc
[8/6/2012 5:03:17 PM] talismania: but he seemed genuinely eager to press wbg
[8/6/2012 5:03:28 PM] talismania: was he just doing that because he knew he could rile him up?
[8/6/2012 5:03:31 PM] Jingle: idk, the log seemed pretty shitty on both parts to me.
[8/6/2012 5:03:40 PM] Jingle: like, the very start of the log, he was opening with hostility
[8/6/2012 5:03:42 PM] talismania: I can't say for sure because wbg came into that chat so pissed in the beginning
[8/6/2012 5:03:50 PM] Jingle: they both did though
[8/6/2012 5:03:51 PM] talismania: ok let me open that log
[8/6/2012 5:04:11 PM] Jingle: like, right from the start, eran was talking shit about wbg's play being terrible
[8/6/2012 5:04:28 PM] Jingle: that was one of the things I went after him on, that nobody seemed to think was worth looking at
[8/6/2012 5:04:44 PM] Jingle: and, of course, I wasnt posting big rainbow colored reminders to vote for him
[8/6/2012 5:04:49 PM] talismania: heh
[8/6/2012 5:04:53 PM] Jingle: that said, Hier made me nervous.
[8/6/2012 5:05:11 PM] Jingle: even if I have a good case on someone, I don't like to see a ninja vote on them with nothing in the thread
[8/6/2012 5:05:26 PM] talismania: I thoguht hier made a case on erandorr
[8/6/2012 5:05:38 PM] Jingle: go look in the thread at the time he voted
[8/6/2012 5:05:39 PM] talismania: it was really sarcastic and I thoguht he was breadcrumbing his character because of that
[8/6/2012 5:05:42 PM] Jingle: his vote was out of nowhere.
[8/6/2012 5:05:55 PM] Jingle: timing wise
[8/6/2012 5:06:16 PM] Jingle: like, i'd expect at least a "oh yeah since I forgot earlier" post or something
[8/6/2012 5:06:22 PM] Jingle: brb smoke
[8/6/2012 5:10:17 PM] Jingle: back
[8/6/2012 5:10:26 PM] talismania: cool I'm reading through eran's filter
[8/6/2012 5:11:36 PM] Jingle: but yeah, it's been tricky for me over the weekend and today, since i've been busy. my usual style is to aggressively bulldog on people, and watch the ensuing discussion for people to say things that don't seem to have a townie motive
[8/6/2012 5:12:23 PM] Jingle: usually goes decent for me, but between people just wanting to ignore my cases, and doing other stuff, it hasn't worked so hot. hopefully it will pick up
[8/6/2012 5:14:22 PM] Jingle: but yeah, the logs from eran/wbg seem less conclusive to me, because when wbg popped in talking down to eran, he didn't even try to get things on track, he just swung back.
[8/6/2012 5:14:55 PM] talismania: ok so erandorr masons wbg sometime after this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668&currentpage=15#285
[8/6/2012 5:15:57 PM] talismania: and then later after wbg outs him he makes this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668&currentpage=16#314
[8/6/2012 5:16:17 PM] talismania: which only focuses on wbg outing ve and not himself which is kind of funny
[8/6/2012 5:17:20 PM] Jingle: yeah that does seem weird. although, to try and be objective, if he expected to be outed, focusing on it happening to him would be strange.
[8/6/2012 5:17:43 PM] talismania: objectively he should have mentioned it as either alignment IMO
[8/6/2012 5:17:47 PM] Jingle: but then, that flies against the claimed motive of "confirming" that VE masoned wbg, which is WIFOM without a log anyway
[8/6/2012 5:18:00 PM] talismania: if it was his scum plan to get wbg lynched, and he knew wbg would out him then he should hav eused it
[8/6/2012 5:18:04 PM] Jingle: which there were no logs from anyone at that point
[8/6/2012 5:18:17 PM] talismania: if it was his town plan to see if wbg outed him too he should have mentioned it too
[8/6/2012 5:18:23 PM] talismania: sot hat's a wash
[8/6/2012 5:18:53 PM] Jingle: he really just doesn't make any sense to me.
[8/6/2012 5:19:09 PM] Jingle: And where I can't find townie motive, and can see possible scum motive, I tend to think scum
[8/6/2012 5:19:37 PM] Jingle: obviously, strange play is always possible too, but it just doesn't make sense.
[8/6/2012 5:20:22 PM] Jingle: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15727835
[8/6/2012 5:20:32 PM] Jingle: he was definitely trying to push votes towards wbg at one point
[8/6/2012 5:20:46 PM] talismania: at one point? I recall him doing it at every point
[8/6/2012 5:20:53 PM] Jingle: yeah, I know
[8/6/2012 5:21:02 PM] Jingle: until prp came up
[8/6/2012 5:21:04 PM] Jingle: the side wagon
[8/6/2012 5:21:19 PM] Jingle: that took on a life of it's own and turned into the lynch instead
[8/6/2012 5:21:34 PM] Jingle: shortly after the lynch, he drops off the face of the planet for all intents and purposes
[8/6/2012 5:22:05 PM] talismania: yes he has been inactive or at least I can't remember what he's done for a while
[8/6/2012 5:22:08 PM] Jingle: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15733650
[8/6/2012 5:22:16 PM] talismania: oh I think he perked up when bugs came back
[8/6/2012 5:22:16 PM] Jingle: there's his "defense" against my case
[8/6/2012 5:22:45 PM] Jingle: which is basically a train wreck of "these aren't the droids you're looking for" and blatant misrepresentation.
[8/6/2012 5:23:05 PM] Jingle: like his response to me pointing out that he was talking shit back to wbg in the logs right at the start
[8/6/2012 5:23:15 PM] Jingle: "Did you notice that he insulted me about 100 times before that? And the one time I get so upset as to say what I do in the quote I INSTANTLY APOLOGIZE?"
[8/6/2012 5:24:09 PM] Jingle: and after ignoring or lying as a response to my case, he calls it a malicious case, and then tells me to look at other people.
[8/6/2012 5:24:34 PM] Jingle: if he actually thought it was malicious, there should be a case, not just a continued tunnel on wbg and prp
[8/6/2012 5:24:44 PM] Jingle: but he accuses me of a malicious case and vanishes
[8/6/2012 5:25:07 PM] talismania: hmm
[8/6/2012 5:25:07 PM] Jingle: the shitty part is so many people think i just have a hardon for him that it probably wouldn't work to just point this out in the thread either
[8/6/2012 5:25:21 PM] talismania: well you're tunneled on him and he was tunneled on wbg at that point
[8/6/2012 5:25:35 PM] talismania: I'm not surprised he didn't turn around and make a case on you
[8/6/2012 5:25:52 PM] talismania: ok I'm gonna go through his response
[8/6/2012 5:26:03 PM] talismania: first thing I agree with him on - it was a joke
[8/6/2012 5:26:21 PM] talismania: second thing let's see
[8/6/2012 5:26:34 PM] Jingle: i didn't know it was a joke. goes back to that familiarity thing
[8/6/2012 5:26:53 PM] talismania: yeah a couple of people have made mistakes like that this game
[8/6/2012 5:27:18 PM] Jingle: i did actually apologize and drop that particular facet on the record, iirc
[8/6/2012 5:27:36 PM] talismania: uh ok so second point is that he's prickly about his opinions essentially
[8/6/2012 5:28:03 PM] Jingle: ok maybe i didn't. not sure.
[8/6/2012 5:28:09 PM] talismania: hmm yeah the problem is his personality
[8/6/2012 5:28:12 PM] Jingle: damn its bad when i have to check my own filter
[8/6/2012 5:28:31 PM] talismania: I ge tthe sense that he is infact rather agressive and whatnot
[8/6/2012 5:28:41 PM] talismania: he went after me pretty agressively early on for instance
[8/6/2012 5:29:34 PM] Jingle: yeah i didn't officially drop that in the thread. but i didn't follow up on it either. hard to know what's an inside joke and what's not
[8/6/2012 5:30:03 PM] Jingle: but yeah, aggressive play is good and all, I'm all for it, but he really didn't address the bigger points
[8/6/2012 5:30:38 PM] Jingle: although, as you said, one of them doesn't make sense from any perspective, and the other is kind of down to personality
[8/6/2012 5:30:56 PM] Jingle: idk, maybe he's not scum, but i don't have a better target right now
[8/6/2012 5:31:01 PM] talismania: yeah so point two is essentially that he attacks people who disagree with him
[8/6/2012 5:31:09 PM] talismania: which is what I mean by he's agresssive
[8/6/2012 5:31:28 PM] talismania: and then the problem is to decide if he's hamming it up on purpose to drive a mislynch
[8/6/2012 5:31:30 PM] talismania: or if that's just how he is
[8/6/2012 5:31:45 PM] talismania: and it's not really that alignment-indicative
[8/6/2012 5:32:44 PM] Jingle: there's so much gray area in this game, that short posts, and dismissive posts can be kind of difficult to deal with
[8/6/2012 5:33:18 PM] talismania: I like erandorr's shorter posts in his filter for the most part
[8/6/2012 5:33:19 PM] Jingle: i mean, i've done it too, where something seems absurd and i ignored it, but if there's several people all saying it, continuing to ignore it doesn't seem pro-town anymore
[8/6/2012 5:33:26 PM] talismania: he asks questions, and then more importantly follows up on them
[8/6/2012 5:33:46 PM] talismania: scum do the first easily but are often too lazy to do the second, because they don't really care about the answer
[8/6/2012 5:33:54 PM] talismania: of course good scum do both
[8/6/2012 5:34:10 PM] talismania: ok so point three in your case is about hier and erandorr's respoens to that
[8/6/2012 5:34:33 PM] talismania: my gut reaction to that is that eran's response was townie but I guess in sum it's just null
[8/6/2012 5:34:57 PM] talismania: like if I'm scum I don't blow off a case, no matter how ridiculous it sounds with a one-liner
[8/6/2012 5:35:08 PM] talismania: but I'm also not that agressive
[8/6/2012 5:36:24 PM] Jingle: i actually had a coach, back in one of my newbie games, tell me to blow off weak cases more often. apparently they thought it was a scumslip to over-defend
[8/6/2012 5:36:38 PM] Jingle: which makes sense, but then you're diving into wifom
[8/6/2012 5:36:45 PM] Jingle: and i hate wifom when i can look for motives
[8/6/2012 5:36:47 PM] talismania: no I agree
[8/6/2012 5:36:59 PM] talismania: I mean I think zephirdd made a case on me this game that I prettuy much just ignored
[8/6/2012 5:37:13 PM] talismania: it's just the use of the one-liner that seems genuine
[8/6/2012 5:37:30 PM] talismania: like I honestly think erandorr read hier's thing and went "wtf"
[8/6/2012 5:37:47 PM] Jingle: well, i guess i can at least shift him to null read and just keep an eye on him for now
[8/6/2012 5:38:03 PM] Jingle: since that all makes some sort of sense, with context
[8/6/2012 5:38:18 PM] talismania: now for sure you're right that he doesn't make a much of an attempt to calm wbg down
[8/6/2012 5:38:29 PM] Jingle: that on its own i can't call scummy
[8/6/2012 5:38:35 PM] talismania: they're pretty much both just salpping each other with fish that whole time
[8/6/2012 5:38:45 PM] Jingle: just useless
[8/6/2012 5:38:53 PM] Jingle: but at least we werent subjected to it in thread
[8/6/2012 5:39:09 PM] talismania: if we were I'd say they might have both been scum
[8/6/2012 5:39:48 PM] Jingle: i can still sort of see a potential case on wbg out of that mess, but it's hard to say. frankly, i think he's been overtunneled
[8/6/2012 5:40:13 PM] talismania: wbg makes me nervous
[8/6/2012 5:40:20 PM] talismania: I've been more or less thinking he's town
[8/6/2012 5:40:35 PM] talismania: but his play since coming back from rage mountain has been subpar
[8/6/2012 5:40:36 PM] Jingle: the main thing with outing that i don't like is that it's too obvious of a defense
[8/6/2012 5:40:56 PM] Jingle: "but why would I out them in the thread if i could have done it in the QT if I was scum"
[8/6/2012 5:41:02 PM] Jingle: that scares the hell out of me
[8/6/2012 5:41:19 PM] Jingle: out of the whole thing, that was the only thing to me that made me think it might be worth a case
[8/6/2012 5:41:40 PM] talismania: yeah on balance the speed with which wbg outed them tells me he wasn't planning much devious with it
[8/6/2012 5:41:59 PM] talismania: he genuinely believes that masons aren't that much more valuable in secret, which I agree with
[8/6/2012 5:42:09 PM] Jingle: would he have been an obvious mason target?
[8/6/2012 5:42:12 PM] talismania: wbg?
[8/6/2012 5:42:14 PM] talismania: yues
[8/6/2012 5:42:18 PM] Jingle: it could have been something he planned to do early then
[8/6/2012 5:42:23 PM] Jingle: making the speed work
[8/6/2012 5:42:45 PM] talismania: well the reason I think for outing masons in the thread as scum
[8/6/2012 5:42:49 PM] talismania: instaed of just in the qt
[8/6/2012 5:43:07 PM] talismania: is to avoid risking looking bad if scum wants to nk the masons
[8/6/2012 5:43:29 PM] talismania: like if VE claimed mason like toad did, for instance, and then got killed
[8/6/2012 5:43:38 PM] Jingle: yeah but they can't nk masons now
[8/6/2012 5:43:51 PM] Jingle: unless we have an insane number of masons total
[8/6/2012 5:44:07 PM] talismania: I really hope there isn't another hidden one
[8/6/2012 5:44:08 PM] Jingle: then scum have masons outed too now
[8/6/2012 5:44:20 PM] Jingle: so every dead mason narrows down some scum
[8/6/2012 5:44:42 PM] talismania: well I think if I were balancing the game I would have the same ratio of masons as there are players
[8/6/2012 5:44:51 PM] talismania: but I don't know if bc did that
[8/6/2012 5:44:56 PM] talismania: right now it's 6 total known
[8/6/2012 5:45:06 PM] talismania: so 4-2? 5-1?
[8/6/2012 5:45:23 PM] Jingle: yeah idk
[8/6/2012 5:45:37 PM] Jingle: but theres enough out that i expect the scum have masons visible
[8/6/2012 5:45:46 PM] Jingle: so they cant nk into masons safely
[8/6/2012 5:45:58 PM] talismania: I mean I'm still fairly sure about VE
[8/6/2012 5:45:58 PM] Jingle: after the first couple got outed, the rest getting outed was VERY pro-town
[8/6/2012 5:46:04 PM] talismania: and I have a strong feeling hassbaby is scum too
[8/6/2012 5:46:08 PM] Jingle: who was it who dropped names after wbg? i forget
[8/6/2012 5:46:12 PM] talismania: toad
[8/6/2012 5:46:35 PM] Jingle: well, out of the two who outed, one of them is probably scum
[8/6/2012 5:47:14 PM] talismania: hmm just thoguht of something
[8/6/2012 5:47:14 PM] Jingle: either to protect attempts to nk into masons, or to protect scum masons so they could keep using it
[8/6/2012 5:47:21 PM] talismania: I suppose it could be dangerous to out too many masons if there's lots
[8/6/2012 5:47:26 PM] talismania: since it helps scum bluesnipe
[8/6/2012 5:47:53 PM] talismania: well
[8/6/2012 5:47:57 PM] talismania: actually I doubt that's an issue
[8/6/2012 5:48:08 PM] talismania: there'd have to be like four more out there before that was troublesome
[8/6/2012 5:48:31 PM] Jingle: well that'd make an entertaining game, if there were that many masons
[8/6/2012 5:48:45 PM] Jingle: for some value of "entertaining"
[8/6/2012 5:48:50 PM] talismania: yeah I was thinking of a setup earlier today
[8/6/2012 5:49:02 PM] talismania: everyone is mason and gets to pick one person they can chat to per cycle
[8/6/2012 5:49:15 PM] talismania: catch is that you are required to post your logs at the end of the cycle
[8/6/2012 5:49:28 PM] Jingle: ow
[8/6/2012 5:49:34 PM] Jingle: that sounds painfully difficult
[8/6/2012 5:49:40 PM] Jingle: inane volume of information
[8/6/2012 5:49:46 PM] Jingle: don't think most people would have the patience
[8/6/2012 5:50:44 PM] talismania: lol hier made a diagram
[8/6/2012 5:50:50 PM] Jingle: yeah just saw that
[8/6/2012 5:50:53 PM] talismania: hahahaha
[8/6/2012 5:51:08 PM] talismania: sorry I think it's funny he couldn't keep track of things
[8/6/2012 5:51:19 PM] talismania: it ain't that complicated
[8/6/2012 5:51:41 PM] Jingle: i can't completely either
[8/6/2012 5:51:47 PM] Jingle: but i'm not drawing a flowchart
[8/6/2012 5:52:30 PM] talismania: ok but back on the subject of which mason is scum
[8/6/2012 5:52:32 PM] talismania: VE
[8/6/2012 5:52:42 PM] talismania: what do you make of the meat of my case against him
[8/6/2012 5:52:56 PM] Jingle: sum it up, or give me a sec to re-read
[8/6/2012 5:53:11 PM] talismania: he doesn't read my filter like a townie should before making a case
[8/6/2012 5:53:29 PM] talismania: he ends up making accusations that aren't actually true by mistakenly paraphrasing other players
[8/6/2012 5:53:53 PM] talismania: yet at the same time he shows he's paying enough attention to the game to remember even the most ohbscure posts I made early on
[8/6/2012 5:54:15 PM] talismania: his reaction to my case is interesting too
[8/6/2012 5:54:30 PM] talismania: he's essentially had to back down completely and admit I was right
[8/6/2012 5:54:44 PM] talismania: without admitting that he's scum of course
[8/6/2012 5:56:05 PM] Jingle: well, I can't comment on all of it, but I got to admit, it's pretty damning. I especially agree about the shadiness of wanting to establish innocence. I'm generally of the opinion that it establishes itself unless you're playing clumsily
[8/6/2012 5:56:12 PM] Jingle: of course, i don't know what kind of player he is
[8/6/2012 5:57:03 PM] Jingle: looking up his response right now
[8/6/2012 5:57:06 PM] talismania: search bureaucracy mafia (still on front page I think) and have a skim through his filter
[8/6/2012 5:57:07 PM] Jingle: trying to keep context
[8/6/2012 5:57:15 PM] talismania: if you want to see his normal town meta
[8/6/2012 5:57:24 PM] talismania: he's normally a lot more spammy
[8/6/2012 5:59:21 PM] Jingle: i do think the rolefishing accusation... well, it kind of makes sense, but we can only hope bc is smart enough to have randomized roles to names, not just inverted or something.
[8/6/2012 5:59:33 PM] Jingle: at the least, you should have saved that for later
[8/6/2012 5:59:41 PM] Jingle: but i don't think it makes a solid core of a case
[8/6/2012 5:59:41 PM] talismania: heh yeah couldn't help myself
[8/6/2012 5:59:52 PM] talismania: since don draper was vt
[8/6/2012 6:00:06 PM] talismania: I think it's safe to say char names truely don't mean anything
[8/6/2012 6:00:50 PM] Jingle: yeah ive watched a few episodes on netflix but got sidetracked by season 3 of warehouse 13
[8/6/2012 6:01:58 PM] Jingle: and yeah, his final response to your case is... strange.
[8/6/2012 6:02:07 PM] Jingle: i could see a VE lynch maybe.
[8/6/2012 6:02:23 PM] talismania: I'll see what I can get out of him in pms and chat
[8/6/2012 6:02:27 PM] Jingle: or we could see if we can kill grush again.
[8/6/2012 6:02:37 PM] talismania: oh grush
[8/6/2012 6:02:40 PM] Jingle: scum/vigi got to, why can't the rest of us?
[8/6/2012 6:02:45 PM] Jingle: its not fair
[8/6/2012 6:03:07 PM] talismania: I bet his plan was something silly too like not masoning d1 and then masoning d2 and seeing what happens
[8/6/2012 6:04:21 PM] Jingle: either that or his starsenses got jammed
[8/6/2012 6:05:03 PM] Jingle: I was just having a look over Bio's filter again
[8/6/2012 6:05:07 PM] Jingle: idk what's up with him
[8/6/2012 6:05:45 PM] talismania: he comes on and off my radar
[8/6/2012 6:05:51 PM] talismania: you palyed with him before you said
[8/6/2012 6:05:53 PM] Jingle: yeah
[8/6/2012 6:05:54 PM] talismania: I think I played with him once too
[8/6/2012 6:05:57 PM] Jingle: hes not spammy
[8/6/2012 6:06:01 PM] talismania: no he's not
[8/6/2012 6:06:11 PM] Jingle: but he's under a page of filter
[8/6/2012 6:06:16 PM] Jingle: with a fair amount as pre-game spam
[8/6/2012 6:06:58 PM] Jingle: last thing he said was to call grush scum for being grush, and then dismiss a case against him
[8/6/2012 6:07:21 PM] talismania: ok opened his filter
[8/6/2012 6:07:48 PM] talismania: this sounds dumb and I really shouldn't rely on it but I thoguht he was town when he asked the host for a filter list in the op
[8/6/2012 6:08:06 PM] Jingle: lol why? when he's scum he's pretty cautious
[8/6/2012 6:08:34 PM] Jingle: end of newbie XVIII he was well off radar. he makes careful scum cases.
[8/6/2012 6:09:01 PM] Jingle: granted, i was scum too that game, but yeah, i watched him play scum, and he's careful and quiet
[8/6/2012 6:09:12 PM] Jingle: but then, haven't seen him as confirmed town, so not sure on that
[8/6/2012 6:09:25 PM] Jingle: although I do have to wonder...
[8/6/2012 6:09:57 PM] Jingle: somewhere in his filter...
[8/6/2012 6:10:00 PM] Jingle: dammit can't find it
[8/6/2012 6:10:00 PM] talismania: scummiest part of his filter is his switch to prp
[8/6/2012 6:10:14 PM] Jingle: that's because it's his single long, thought out post.
[8/6/2012 6:10:24 PM] talismania: ewll he has some others of comparable length
[8/6/2012 6:10:38 PM] Jingle: but they're fluff longer posts
[8/6/2012 6:10:38 PM] talismania: I mean I think he was just going along with the twagon
[8/6/2012 6:10:46 PM] talismania: but he sort of overjustified that
[8/6/2012 6:11:14 PM] talismania: it would have made more sense for him to say "I don't wbg lynched, I'm voting prp" given his history
[8/6/2012 6:11:26 PM] Jingle: here we go.
[8/6/2012 6:11:34 PM] Jingle: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15730145
[8/6/2012 6:11:42 PM] Jingle: "My stance on him is about him being less scummy than Grush. I don't really care about meta, never have, probably never will. What I care about is THIS game. "
[8/6/2012 6:12:01 PM] Jingle: i'm all for voting for your stronger scumread
[8/6/2012 6:12:17 PM] Jingle: but having a strong scumread on a troll for trolling sounds ludicrous
[8/6/2012 6:12:53 PM] Jingle: even me, not considering prp a top lynch priority, i would have taken prp over grush as a lynch based on available info at the time
[8/6/2012 6:13:26 PM] talismania: well you have a point there
[8/6/2012 6:13:34 PM] talismania: it's hard to really ever call grush scum
[8/6/2012 6:13:42 PM] talismania: it's easy to call him bad
[8/6/2012 6:13:50 PM] Jingle: i knew him by reputation before i ever saw him in a game
[8/6/2012 6:13:59 PM] Jingle: i knew what to expect before it started
[8/6/2012 6:14:07 PM] talismania: so would you say that this is matching biosc's careful cases as scum?
[8/6/2012 6:14:21 PM] talismania: they dont seem that careful to me
[8/6/2012 6:14:28 PM] Jingle: not really, but i'd say that he's at least not going to miss your filter
[8/6/2012 6:14:54 PM] Jingle: actually, if anything, i'd consider him blue over scum
[8/6/2012 6:15:00 PM] Jingle: but he could still be scum
[8/6/2012 6:15:04 PM] Jingle: i don't know
[8/6/2012 6:15:07 PM] Jingle: it's a hard read
[8/6/2012 6:15:27 PM] Jingle: bio may have just seemed careful that time because i was controlling the thread at that point
[8/6/2012 6:15:31 PM] Jingle: i'm not sure
[8/6/2012 6:15:39 PM] talismania: maybe he shot grush
[8/6/2012 6:15:43 PM] Jingle: plausible
[8/6/2012 6:15:51 PM] talismania: he's my number one vig suspect
[8/6/2012 6:16:00 PM] Jingle: and his inactivity would match the lack of a vigi claim on it
[8/6/2012 6:16:47 PM] Jingle: what about snb?
[8/6/2012 6:17:05 PM] talismania: I think he's town for the most part
[8/6/2012 6:17:14 PM] talismania: there was a period of a few hours where I was thinking he might be scum
[8/6/2012 6:17:23 PM] talismania: but mainly I think he's town
[8/6/2012 6:17:44 PM] talismania: the effort he put in with regards to wbg made me think that
[8/6/2012 6:17:55 PM] talismania: like where he was digging up out of game quotes
[8/6/2012 6:18:03 PM] talismania: hte fact that he reread the thread
[8/6/2012 6:18:24 PM] talismania: he's been generally open-minded too
[8/6/2012 6:18:27 PM] talismania: he asks good questions
[8/6/2012 6:18:29 PM] talismania: dunno
[8/6/2012 6:18:31 PM] Jingle: maybe i just don't like the kill masons idea he posited for some reason
[8/6/2012 6:18:57 PM] Jingle: maybe i'm just crazy, but i think that's a good way to potentially sacrifice a lot of town for minimal scum
[8/6/2012 6:19:09 PM] talismania: I don't think he's saying anything different other than that we should look into the masons
[8/6/2012 6:19:11 PM] Jingle: also, it's a minimal discussion cop-out lynch method
[8/6/2012 6:19:22 PM] Jingle: and discussion kills scum
[8/6/2012 6:19:30 PM] talismania: I don't think he means to policy lynch all masons
[8/6/2012 6:19:35 PM] talismania: that wouldn't work
[8/6/2012 6:19:54 PM] talismania: lylo is at day 4 or something at worst
[8/6/2012 6:20:00 PM] Jingle: plus, realistically, the more dead scum masons we make, the more reliable our surviving masons are.
[8/6/2012 6:20:02 PM] talismania: so not nearly enough time for that radical of a plan
[8/6/2012 6:20:16 PM] Jingle: so if we lynch carefully, the better
[8/6/2012 6:20:28 PM] Jingle: granted, the masons definitely bear watching
[8/6/2012 6:20:35 PM] Jingle: with this many i can't imagine us all being town
[8/6/2012 6:20:45 PM] talismania: yep I'm still locking VE and hassy
[8/6/2012 6:20:51 PM] Jingle: masons should definitely get extra scrutiny
[8/6/2012 6:21:06 PM] Jingle: hassy needs to post more
[8/6/2012 6:21:06 PM] talismania: toad I think is town
[8/6/2012 6:21:22 PM] talismania: the way toad played his role makes a lotof sense from a town pov
[8/6/2012 6:21:35 PM] talismania: he's a clever scum player but that would be really really celver of him to do as scum
[8/6/2012 6:22:23 PM] Jingle: certainly if VE gets lynched and flips red, hassy will bear close watching
[8/6/2012 6:22:31 PM] Jingle: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15713928
[8/6/2012 6:22:46 PM] Jingle: that's him getting in on the rolefishing attack on you
[8/6/2012 6:23:02 PM] talismania: yeah he got baited by that for sure
[8/6/2012 6:23:16 PM] Jingle: if i was going to base a case on that, i'd hope someone would mercy kill me for it
[8/6/2012 6:23:27 PM] talismania: it must be the kind of thing that's just irresistible in scum qt
[8/6/2012 6:23:42 PM] talismania: "holy shit he's literally asking for people's names" etc
[8/6/2012 6:23:56 PM] Jingle: he jumped on that and then vanished completely after voting on WBG
[8/6/2012 6:24:08 PM] talismania: he's not interested in the game really
[8/6/2012 6:24:09 PM] Jingle: i don't like disappearing people who vanish after a wagon much
[8/6/2012 6:24:21 PM] talismania: that's the biggest scumtell
[8/6/2012 6:24:38 PM] talismania: like if you ever want to know if I'm scum, ask if I'm interested or not in the game
[8/6/2012 6:24:54 PM] talismania: I hate playing scum so I tend to be passive and not post as much
[8/6/2012 6:24:59 PM] talismania: hassy may have the same problem
[8/6/2012 6:25:13 PM] talismania: also he has set himself a little trap
[8/6/2012 6:25:22 PM] talismania: he mentions in his logs with toad that he is keeping game notes
[8/6/2012 6:25:47 PM] talismania: so it will be interesting to see if he can actually produce those
[8/6/2012 6:26:02 PM] talismania: as doing that as scum gets tiresome
[8/6/2012 6:27:23 PM] Jingle: i don't keep notes as either alignment. when i played scum in newbie XVIII i avoided notes to force myself to stay contextual, and i do the same as a townie. making myself re-read filters is much better for avoiding stupid miscalculations that lead to mislynches
[8/6/2012 6:27:39 PM] Jingle: at least for me
[8/6/2012 6:27:56 PM] Jingle: notes would make me lazy, and i don't want to form a bad case and turn it into a mislynch because i get lazy
[8/6/2012 6:27:59 PM] talismania: I tried notes twice but I always gave up after D1
[8/6/2012 6:28:54 PM] Jingle: oh shit, i gtg. need to grab a shower before i head out to wife's birthday dinner
[8/6/2012 6:29:00 PM] talismania: have fun!
[8/6/2012 6:29:01 PM] Jingle: i'll catch you later
[8/6/2012 9:22:41 PM] Jingle: i do not understand erand.
[8/6/2012 9:24:13 PM] Jingle: he sits there making all these points about VE, then votes WBG...
[8/6/2012 9:25:04 PM] Jingle: then he throws an OMGUS on me, unless there's an actual case somewhere in the thread (oh right, I'm scummy because I didn't jump on the prp wagon when ordered)
[8/6/2012 9:57:08 PM] talismania: don't understand why he's quitting the game too or if he actually is
[8/6/2012 9:57:16 PM] talismania: drama queen city this game
[8/6/2012 9:57:24 PM] Jingle: yeah no joke
[8/6/2012 9:59:15 PM] Jingle: god people are failing quote tags
[8/6/2012 9:59:17 PM] Jingle: drives me insane
[8/6/2012 10:00:20 PM] talismania: lol love this countdropula
[8/6/2012 10:00:57 PM] Jingle: he's got class. I just wish there were good cases in the thread.
[8/6/2012 10:01:15 PM] Jingle: This game is going strange though.
[8/6/2012 10:01:38 PM] talismania: it's playing like there's 12 people in it
[8/6/2012 10:02:14 PM] Jingle: yeah. I could try to build cases, but ideally, we'd get lurkers into existence first.
[8/6/2012 10:02:39 PM] talismania: it's just about consolidation time
[8/6/2012 10:02:52 PM] Jingle: consolidate what? cases?
[8/6/2012 10:02:56 PM] talismania: votes
[8/6/2012 10:03:09 PM] talismania: maybe tomorrow morning though
[8/6/2012 10:03:16 PM] talismania: well my time
[8/6/2012 10:03:42 PM] Jingle: yeah, I don't think we've had anything productive yet to consolidate on. Maybe tomorrow, I can come out of the closet, and we can use the logs to work from.
[8/6/2012 10:04:15 PM] talismania: mmm I would think about it from the other way around
[8/6/2012 10:04:24 PM] talismania: like find something in the logs that yo uwan to persue, then go for that
[8/6/2012 10:04:39 PM] talismania: just dumping the logs during the last part of the day phase would be too distracting
[8/6/2012 10:04:44 PM] Jingle: true.
[8/6/2012 10:05:27 PM] Jingle: idk, it's going to be entertaining to try and secure votes with nobody playing
[8/6/2012 10:05:57 PM] Jingle: but that's kinda the only thing we can do
[8/6/2012 10:06:02 PM] Jingle: good thing it's plurality
[9:08:10 AM] Jingle: Ok, so I'm starting to wonder about dropula, just because of his nutjob spam shit hes doing
[11:03:55 AM] Jingle: Well, judging by the current activity level, the voting today is going to be kinda stupid.
[12:33:55 PM] talismania: the newb thing will go away after a few games
[12:34:23 PM] Jingle: it's just the dumbest thing you can do in mafia...
[12:34:31 PM] Jingle: discouraging discussion hurts the game
[12:34:45 PM] Jingle: unless bke is scum...
[12:35:02 PM] Jingle: changing the direction of the thread with an argument would make sense.
[12:36:56 PM] talismania: thinking bke probably is actually
[12:37:01 PM] talismania: he was touchy early
[12:38:27 PM] Jingle: well, we've got VE, I think, and unless we're completely wrong about how he's going to flip, then bke trying to stop discussion on VE while VE is trying to scare votes off himself would make sense
[12:38:43 PM] talismania: maybe hier too, maybe synystyr
[12:39:02 PM] talismania: wbg still an outside possibility too but hard to say
[12:39:03 PM] Jingle: plausible. there's so many people with no filter to read
[12:39:10 PM] talismania: oh and hassy of course
[12:39:13 PM] talismania: who's been really gone
[12:40:31 PM] Jingle: the fun wifom, here, is whether VE is trying to ppush eran as a bus or as a mislynch
[12:40:56 PM] Jingle: if he thinks he's more valuable than eran, since eran basically decided to quit on the game, a bus could be valuable
[12:41:10 PM] Jingle: woot lunch just got here
[12:42:59 PM] talismania: no the eran push doesn't smell like a bus
[12:43:37 PM] Jingle: why not?
[12:43:39 PM] Jingle: just curious
[12:44:03 PM] talismania: because ve was on him before I was on VE
[12:44:14 PM] talismania: so ve couldn't have known he was in danger
[12:44:46 PM] Jingle: true, but he has been a focal point for most of the day
[12:44:51 PM] Jingle: but a valid point
[12:45:33 PM] Jingle: i am nervous that we have scum in the people who straight up aren't playing though.
[12:45:45 PM] talismania: the inactives?
[12:45:47 PM] Jingle: but hard to be sure without lynching into the suspicious players
[12:45:48 PM] talismania: we do for sure
[12:45:55 PM] talismania: I mean there's 5 scum
[12:46:00 PM] talismania: bound to be at least one lurker
[12:46:08 PM] Jingle: yeah makes sense
[12:46:09 PM] talismania: but they always post before they vote
[12:46:17 PM] Jingle: the question is more whether its active or passive lurkers
[12:46:21 PM] talismania: that's how you find them, bnased on what they say in that post
[12:46:28 PM] talismania: usually active lurkers
[12:46:32 PM] talismania: like glasse maybe?
[12:46:37 PM] talismania: although he's been loopy
[12:47:18 PM] Jingle: yeah, possible. idk. I think at this point, I'ma wait and see how VE flips, then go back through filters and the voting.
[12:47:23 PM] Jingle: that's where i do my best work
[12:47:57 PM] Jingle: i really don't think ve is gona flip town, of course, but there's never guarantees.
[12:48:17 PM] talismania: I really hope he doesn't or I don't know why he's been playing like this
[12:48:55 PM] Jingle: yeah. I really don't like snb, but I'm pretty sure i just don't like him.
[12:49:02 PM] Jingle: as opposed to a scum thing.
[12:49:11 PM] talismania: mmm I think he's town but we'll see
[12:49:45 PM] Jingle: if lazermonkey is scummy, I couldn't make a case if I wanted to, it would just start an argument after I had to deal with him in newbie XX.
[12:50:01 PM] talismania: lazer?
[12:50:04 PM] talismania: he seems really town to me
[12:50:25 PM] Jingle: Dude was completely irrational, he asked for a modkill on me when I wouldn't switch my vote off the guy who the confirmed DT checked as red.
[12:50:31 PM] Jingle: and he was town at the time.
[12:50:40 PM] Jingle: called it me playing against wincon
[12:51:01 PM] Jingle: so if he ever ends up looking scummy, i can't even make the case myself.
[1:35:08 PM] talismania: you were talking about toad right?
[1:35:12 PM] Jingle: yeah
[1:35:16 PM] talismania: just say that to lazer no need to get mad
[1:35:19 PM] Jingle: blatantly obvious
[1:35:27 PM] Jingle: dude has a problem with me
[1:35:32 PM] talismania: he probably thought it was me or something
[1:39:34 PM] Jingle: he's a pain in the ass
[1:40:02 PM] Jingle: that whole game was dumb, but yeah.
[6:14:12 PM] Jingle: I hope no crazy shit comes up at the last minute, I got to leave about a half hour before deadline for TKD...
[6:14:30 PM] talismania: there's always something
[6:14:38 PM] talismania: I'm interested to see if the 5 or so votes that are missing show up
[6:14:46 PM] talismania: oh nvm I guess it's like 3
[6:15:12 PM] Jingle: if not, we might get some flips... unfortunately, i really doubt the scum lurkers will miss votes, so they wouldn't be helpful flips