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On August 03 2012 19:25 prplhz wrote:
@Toadesstern Could you explain that post? First you write random letters in red and then you ask me "if you had to make different groups" which I don't understand at all. I don't put people in "vet" groups, there are people who have established meta behavioral patterns and who should be watched closely (or not watched closely) if they deviate, but there isn't any player in this game who has a reputation for single handedly ruining scum teams on a regular basis.
Yeah when I posted that I read the thread the first time and colored names the way I thought about them when reading through.
Actually if VE were to be someone else than VE his name would completly red and nt just semi red because VE does some STRANGE things from time to time. Anyways, copy & paste here I come:
+ Show Spoiler [VE] +(Pregame!): clicky! I'm joking around, he picks up the joke, Marv does so as well but VE isn't getting that Marv's just joking around when it was preeeetty obvious. Seems like he's nervous to me? Or was that some kind of anti-joke I'm not getting?  Clicky! Looks kind of try-hard to me. Obviously Zeph is fooling around or at least (if he's mafia) trying to make it look like he's carelessly fooling around. I doubt this honestly was an attempt to get a random lynch. It would be fine if VE pointed that out but the 2nd paragraph is weird. Why does he have to rub that in everyone's faces? "LOOK GUYS I DON'T WANT TO RND-LYNCH BECAUSE THAT's BAD". No shit sherlock. Yet he feels the urge to tell everyone about that. Looks to me like someone desperatly trying to get townie-points. But this is VE, he does weird shit every time so idk... Clicky! Big shiny text about how masons should claim. I totally disagree with him. It was a desaster in L. We lost a complete cycle, got no advantage, everyone eneded up being paranoid because obviously one group (pro-claim or anti-claim) had to be mentally retarded or scum to be stupid enough to not agree with ones self conclusion according to everyone in the game. Clicky! The big thing, with multiple [big]'s and [b] in his most recent post was "MASON CLAIMS". Not "MASONS CLAIM MAYBE?" or something else, it was Mason claims. Now he proceeds to tell people he doesn't think it's a good idea for masons to claim and only wanted to talk about the idea? The fuck?
Talis on the other hand is a guy who usually ends up posting what he thinks about the game d1 in an honest way, no matter of alignment. Remember PYP? Talis was the guy who told people to encrypt their shit. He's the kind of guy that thinks about the set-up ahead of time and then proceeds to post his thoughts about it no matter of alignment.
I think he genuinely believes in what he posted, but what he posted is incredible stupid. So he either didn't think this trough or he thinks it's best to change his "conclusion" in some kind of way. What he posted makes little to no sense to me and that feels off because as mentioned I'm pretty sure he usually means what he posts d1 no matter of alignment.
Still making notes about everything and I'm at talis's post right now, so that's why I had to improvise something right now :p
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On August 03 2012 20:02 Zephirdd wrote:
Masoned players should claim IMO.
masons themselves shouldn't unless that would save his life.
toad, why improvise? Are you feeling some kind of pressure that stops you from making a decent post?
na, as mentioned I'm still making my notes and as mentioned I was re-reading everything and wasn't done with page 13 at that time. So that's why I had to type something instead of copy & pasting.
If you want to have a proper post here you go:
+ Show Spoiler [Talis] +Tclicky! Completly disagree with him. A Mason is probably one of the strongest town roles in existence and he calls them worthless. Surely it's incredible dangerous because you could end up getting influenced if you hit mafia but a 2nd point of view is the best thing that can possibly happen to any townie to make sure he's staying objective and not just ranting about someone because he doesn't like the dude. That being said Talis usually posts the truth about what he's thinking d1 no matter of alignment, so he really thinks so either way. But there are some BIG issues in his post. It's just not thought trough. - 1) They are not worthless, Masons are incredible strong. Strong to a point that they might end up being dangerous. THAT's a proper reason to want them claimed if there's mafia masons as well.
THAT's the reason we had masons claimed in L, because BC thought they are to strong to run around when there's mafia masons as well.
What Talis said is the complete opposite of that.
- 2) Mason is worthless for scum? The fuck? Ultimate manipulating role in existence is kinda worthless for mafia? Especially if they can choose who gets to be the mason? WBG-Mafia-Mason would be incredibly scary. I wouldn't want to play against that.
- 3) is speculation and completly wrong according to what I saw in the past. I think in L it was something like 5 town masons vs 2 mafia masons if I remember correctly?
- 4) It gives little to no information to town while giving a shitton of information to mafia. Do they want to hit masons because they think they're dangerous? Awesome hit masons. Do they want to hit other blue roles instead? Awesome, hit whoever is not a mason and your chances to hit a blue are way better.
- 5) The biggest issue: If you are masoned you don't claim. Ever. If you are masoned you either got masoned because someone thinks you're scum and wants to sacrifice himself to catch you with a trap in PM-Land for a 1v1 trade (highly unlikely but possible) or you got masoned because the guy thinks it's highly likely you are town and wants to talk with you to get another point of view on reads, to make sure he stays objective. So claiming you got masoned is basicly telling mafia "sup, someone think's I'm the most likely guy to be a townie IN THE GAME. Pretty please don't shoot me though". I don't like outing townreads and I don't like outing the strongest townread someone has either.
That being said if WBG turns out to be a Mason I'd be up for policy lynching him :3
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On August 03 2012 20:09 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 17:57 Lazermonkey wrote:
I really don't see a reason for someone NOT to claim if they get masoned. One might argue that it let's scum get one of the few pieces of info that they've not already recived, however I don't really see how scum would be able to capitalize on the fact that there are town masons in the game. Okay, when thinking of it, there might be some situations that people claiming masoned might be usefull for scum. But Town will most likely gain more from claiming than scum. Masoned players SHOULD claim.
what kind of information do you get as a townie if I were to tell you that I got masoned for example?
What kind of reaction would that trigger?
I can't think of one to be honest.
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On August 03 2012 20:50 wherebugsgo wrote:
before I forget, I got masoned by VE.
I'm not a mason. I'm Roger Sterling. You guys should know that by now, but then again I don't remember why I hired some of you.
... have you already talked with him?
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##Vote VE
We need a voting thread
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I'm more interested in VE's intentions actually.
- Did he mason someone randomly from the get go? Why wasn't he afraid to randomly hit mafia at all? WBG can be pretty manipulative
- If it was not from the get-go VE probably had a town-read on WBG. If that's the case VE should have no problem at all telling people why he thinks WBG to be town. Someone masoning without even being able to explain why is the most suspicious thing in the world. So VE SHOULD have told WBG why he thinks that he's town if that's really the case.
- Did VE explain why he masoned you WBG?
I'd rather have an answer quite quick than giving VE some time to write something up.
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On August 03 2012 21:38 Lazermonkey wrote:
@Toad: I don't agree with masoned players not claiming. You say that the most likely player to be masoned is someone who looks town, I agree with that. But your argument is that scum will have an easier time to make a good NK kill because of that. People will be posting town reads none the les so I don't see this as much of an issue. One town read will most probebly not be the main reason for a Nk and if there are alot of people suspecting that person to be town, he is very likely to be killed anyway.Also, if the masoned players claim right before night we can prevent a night kill on these players at least for that night.
Basically, this is the only negative thing I can think of with people claiming masoned. But the advantages for this is way bigger.
Just to remind you, this was the question:
On August 03 2012 20:35 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 20:09 Lazermonkey wrote:On August 03 2012 17:57 Lazermonkey wrote:
I really don't see a reason for someone NOT to claim if they get masoned. One might argue that it let's scum get one of the few pieces of info that they've not already recived, however I don't really see how scum would be able to capitalize on the fact that there are town masons in the game. Okay, when thinking of it, there might be some situations that people claiming masoned might be usefull for scum. But Town will most likely gain more from claiming than scum. Masoned players SHOULD claim. what kind of information do you get as a townie if I were to tell you that I got masoned for example?
What kind of reaction would that trigger?I can't think of one to be honest.
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On August 03 2012 22:13 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 21:44 Toadesstern wrote:On August 03 2012 21:38 Lazermonkey wrote:
@Toad: I don't agree with masoned players not claiming. You say that the most likely player to be masoned is someone who looks town, I agree with that. But your argument is that scum will have an easier time to make a good NK kill because of that. People will be posting town reads none the les so I don't see this as much of an issue. One town read will most probebly not be the main reason for a Nk and if there are alot of people suspecting that person to be town, he is very likely to be killed anyway.Also, if the masoned players claim right before night we can prevent a night kill on these players at least for that night.
Basically, this is the only negative thing I can think of with people claiming masoned. But the advantages for this is way bigger. Just to remind you, this was the question: On August 03 2012 20:35 Toadesstern wrote:On August 03 2012 20:09 Lazermonkey wrote:On August 03 2012 17:57 Lazermonkey wrote:
I really don't see a reason for someone NOT to claim if they get masoned. One might argue that it let's scum get one of the few pieces of info that they've not already recived, however I don't really see how scum would be able to capitalize on the fact that there are town masons in the game. Okay, when thinking of it, there might be some situations that people claiming masoned might be usefull for scum. But Town will most likely gain more from claiming than scum. Masoned players SHOULD claim. what kind of information do you get as a townie if I were to tell you that I got masoned for example?
What kind of reaction would that trigger?I can't think of one to be honest. We will know the exact numbers of masons unless scum mason decides not to use his power at all in which case he can be treated as vanilla scum. Yes, this means scum will also know how many masons there are, however scum already have two advantages here. 1. They already know whether or not there is a scum mason. 2. If one scum ever gets masoned all scum will know who is that that person is scum mason whilest if town gets masoned and we decide that they shouldn't claim, only that person will know who is the mason. There is more to gain for town than for scum by claiming.
If you treat it as information we want to use that IS a pretty big if, isn't it?
Let's say we're in a situation with 3 town masons and 1 mafia mason for the sake of getting some numbers.
Let's say the 3 town masons get claimed, the 1 mafia mason won't be claimed.
What's the next step? "Woah, we've got EXACTLY 3 masons, one of them is bound to be mafia! Let's lynch into them!" ?
If that's not the next step, what good is the information?
You said yourself, we're going to know the exact number of masons, while saying that it's very much possible that the number will be wrong. That's kind of contradicting imo.
On August 03 2012 22:16 Zephirdd wrote:
I'm not part of the mason circles I guess /sad
Toad, why insta-voting VE? I know you had some suspicion of him, but did you consider that VE sounded overly cautious because he is a mason? That's what I get at least.
Erandorr, why masoning someone who just outted his mason?
kind of.
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On August 03 2012 23:32 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 21:13 Toadesstern wrote:I'm more interested in VE's intentions actually. - Did he mason someone randomly from the get go? Why wasn't he afraid to randomly hit mafia at all? WBG can be pretty manipulative
- If it was not from the get-go VE probably had a town-read on WBG. If that's the case VE should have no problem at all telling people why he thinks WBG to be town. Someone masoning without even being able to explain why is the most suspicious thing in the world. So VE SHOULD have told WBG why he thinks that he's town if that's really the case.
- Did VE explain why he masoned you WBG?
I'd rather have an answer quite quick than giving VE some time to write something up. This seemed off because he seemed to have stopped for the night by the time I went to sleep. So, I looked. Sure enough, you start posting a case 7 hours and change after VE's last post, you vote somewhere in the 8ish hour range, and say you want fast answers 9 hours after his last post. Asking for an answer quick is one thing if he's posting, but this seems a bit pushy. Trying to force the issue with someone who hasn't posted in hours and use that to make them look scummy? I can't speak for his motives, because they sure as hell don't make much sense to me yet, but yours just seem scummy.
I wanted WBG to answer the questions...
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On August 03 2012 23:36 JingleHell wrote:
Ah. My apologies. Maybe I should finish my caffeine, I missed that.
Well I didn't say so in the post itself because I thought it's obvious that I want WBG to answer those things and to share some information on VE's motives.
Apparently it was not :p
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Oh gawd people need to stop trolling. I have no idea if people are literally playing anti-town or playing like they're stupid on purpose to get some reactions
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On August 03 2012 23:56 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 22:27 Toadesstern wrote:On August 03 2012 22:13 Lazermonkey wrote:On August 03 2012 21:44 Toadesstern wrote:On August 03 2012 21:38 Lazermonkey wrote:
@Toad: I don't agree with masoned players not claiming. You say that the most likely player to be masoned is someone who looks town, I agree with that. But your argument is that scum will have an easier time to make a good NK kill because of that. People will be posting town reads none the les so I don't see this as much of an issue. One town read will most probebly not be the main reason for a Nk and if there are alot of people suspecting that person to be town, he is very likely to be killed anyway.Also, if the masoned players claim right before night we can prevent a night kill on these players at least for that night.
Basically, this is the only negative thing I can think of with people claiming masoned. But the advantages for this is way bigger. Just to remind you, this was the question: On August 03 2012 20:35 Toadesstern wrote:On August 03 2012 20:09 Lazermonkey wrote:On August 03 2012 17:57 Lazermonkey wrote:
I really don't see a reason for someone NOT to claim if they get masoned. One might argue that it let's scum get one of the few pieces of info that they've not already recived, however I don't really see how scum would be able to capitalize on the fact that there are town masons in the game. Okay, when thinking of it, there might be some situations that people claiming masoned might be usefull for scum. But Town will most likely gain more from claiming than scum. Masoned players SHOULD claim. what kind of information do you get as a townie if I were to tell you that I got masoned for example?
What kind of reaction would that trigger?I can't think of one to be honest. We will know the exact numbers of masons unless scum mason decides not to use his power at all in which case he can be treated as vanilla scum. Yes, this means scum will also know how many masons there are, however scum already have two advantages here. 1. They already know whether or not there is a scum mason. 2. If one scum ever gets masoned all scum will know who is that that person is scum mason whilest if town gets masoned and we decide that they shouldn't claim, only that person will know who is the mason. There is more to gain for town than for scum by claiming. If you treat it as information we want to use that IS a pretty big if, isn't it? Let's say we're in a situation with 3 town masons and 1 mafia mason for the sake of getting some numbers. Let's say the 3 town masons get claimed, the 1 mafia mason won't be claimed. What's the next step? "Woah, we've got EXACTLY 3 masons, one of them is bound to be mafia! Let's lynch into them!" ? If that's not the next step, what good is the information? You said yourself, we're going to know the exact number of masons, while saying that it's very much possible that the number will be wrong. That's kind of contradicting imo. On August 03 2012 22:16 Zephirdd wrote:
I'm not part of the mason circles I guess /sad
Toad, why insta-voting VE? I know you had some suspicion of him, but did you consider that VE sounded overly cautious because he is a mason? That's what I get at least.
Erandorr, why masoning someone who just outted his mason? kind of. That's not what I said. In the situation you describe we can't assume that any of the masons are scum. There are no guarantees for scum mason. However, In the situation you describe, we have effectivly turned a quite strong scum mason into a weak vanilla scum. We are in an advantage we wouldn't have been in if we wouldn't claim masoned.
Well Talis said he'd like to do something like that earlier, so surely it's going to be a shitstorm of people arguing wether we should lynch into them or not.
At the same time we're giving mafia better odds at killing people they want to kill instead of just killing people.
I don't think that's to good.
And again, we don't know what kind of scenario could be true. You basicly just said "well in that situation we don't lynch because we don't know if we have a mafiamason".
So the mafias don't have to hide their masons according to you, because we're not lynching into them, because even it it were 3, 4 or 5 or 6 masons, we can't know for sure that one of them has to be a mafia mason, right?
In that scenario we got nothing at all while giving mafia better odds.
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On August 04 2012 00:03 talismania wrote:response to toad: + Show Spoiler +Yo what? Of course you should claim if someone masons you. Mason isn't mason this game, your whole post with references to other games makes it seem like you think it's as powerful as normal. Masons aren't masons. They're interviewers or something. Claiming you're masond' just says "yo I was mason'd and I have a message log with another player". It's essentially having access to extra posts from someone, which means more for the thread to chew on when the time is right to share those logs. That's information. That's good. Your objection to it is weird - because it might be giving scum away that you're a town read of someone?
Ok ok first off that's just silly. You and I have both been scum together and that sort of thing doesn't really factor in to night kill decisions. I don't think we ever talked about who town thinks is townie. We were more interested in who we could get lynched. Also what lazermanguy said.
Secondly I don't understand your logic in getting there. town masons, if you're out there and reading this: Don't pick someone you think is really town and want to bounce your ideas off of. That's just silly as hell. Pick someone you're unsure of, so you get the chance to pick their brains in private. Or pick someone you think is scum, for the same reason.
Your post also makes reference to people getting mason'd being scared of being influenced. WHAT. Who the hell in this game is actually scared of being influenced by someone that masons you? I know you aren't because I know you aren't. Show me someone who is.
All my references were references to L.
L used the same kind of masons we have in this game.
Read the game. Read what BC posted in that game. When you're done come back and try again.
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On August 04 2012 00:08 talismania wrote:
yo toad what you make of erandorr, glasse, VE, wbg?
highly depends on wether or not some people are trolling on purpose to look like stupid idiots to fish for reactions.
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On August 04 2012 00:20 wherebugsgo wrote:
Gotta love 8:30 vision appointments.
For anyone who doesn't know, from my perspective Erandor and VE share two important traits:
One, they both call me scum in every game without fail regardless of their own alignments.
Two, they're both awful as town.
Right now I lean toward Erandor being terrible, since I don't think as scum he'd stop being lazy long enough to form a coherent sentence.
Question: Did prplhz do that on purpose?
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On August 04 2012 00:37 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 00:11 Toadesstern wrote:On August 04 2012 00:08 talismania wrote:
yo toad what you make of erandorr, glasse, VE, wbg? highly depends on wether or not some people are trolling on purpose to look like stupid idiots to fish for reactions. that's fine, give me the different scenarios in your mind
Well if prplhz believes in what he posted either he or WBG has to be mafia, maybe even both.
I don't think prplhz is that stupid therefore I'm leaning town on both of WBG and Prplhz so far and think Prplhz posted something like "that" to get some reactions. To see wether or not people are jumping on the train and yell "yeah let's lynch that mofu, totally agree!".
I think eran is town right now.
I think VE is mafia right now.
I think I don't have a clue about glasses alignment right now and I doubt anyone else has one 12 hours into the game when half the people haven't posted, when the "case" on him was made when he had something like 3 posts. He is a true-random for me right now.
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On August 04 2012 00:57 Lazermonkey wrote:
@Toad: Well we shouldn't lynch a couple of masons just because they are masons, the same way we shouldn't give them some sort of immunity just because they are masons. If they are scummy - > lynch. if not then we don't. Obviously... But that isn't really what we argued about in the first place. I said we should claim beeing masoned, not mason.
Sure it has a lot to do with what we're talking about.
I asked you about the benefits because I can't see any, at all.
You said there are some and it's good information but when talking about the two most likely assumptions (I could think of) you're telling us that we should just ignore the information on do whatever we think is best based on our reads excluding the mason-information.
If that's the case I just don't see the benefits of claiming at all, if we're supposed to ignore the information completly.
It is completly irrelevant if we're talking about the guys being masoned or the guys masoning because revealing neither of those 2 will give us something at all imo.
But I'll ignore that matter from now on. I see we disagree, I see there's some guys who agree with we and that's about it. No need to make the same mistake we had in L.
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On August 04 2012 01:08 VisceraEyes wrote:
-.-
Yes, I am a mason, and no, I didn't give Bugs the okay to out me.
Toad you're insane bro. If you'll read my post again, I was AGAINST masons claiming, prplhz asked me what the point of them claiming was and I explained it to him.
I'm screaming at bugs in a PM, I'll be back in a bit.
come on, you know you ignore people unless they vote you :p
I need to know what's going on in VE-land, in WBG-land, in Prplhz-land right now.
I'm kind of okay with your answer, although I still consider you weird. But that's normal for you I guess.
Next one: WBG, Prplhz explain the shit you're doing pretty please :3
I hardly believe that all 3 of you being mafia is an option so someone is doing bullshit on purpose
##Unvote
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On August 04 2012 01:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
Eran: he thinks you're either dumb or scum. A loss of a player like that to NK is preferable to a NK on like...him. By his estimation. Bugs is probably town bro...I think he'd try and manipulate us in PMs rather than instantly out us if he were scum.
See, that's what I'm referring to when saying you're weird from time to time
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On August 04 2012 03:58 slOosh wrote:Could you please splice in my pregame post with all the filters?I didn't post last night because it was late and I wanted sufficient time to read the thread before inputting my thoughts. Many people aren't actually thinking this through when trying to untie all this stuff. If WBG was scum then revealing that information to town is benefit to us, because scum would already know that, so calling him scum on that basis makes no sense. Both VE and Erandorr are acting in a way I feel like a town mason who has been outed would. So this whole thing gives us decent reads on them. As for WBG, he is null. I want us to start talking about Zephirdd, Toadesstern and talismania. Zephirdd because he is posting but not actually contributing - for instance his lurker-list post follows the whole mason outting thing and his only thoughts are Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 01:53 Zephirdd wrote:
biosc
majugarzett
countdropula
hier
xsebt
zorkmid
broodkingexe
ghost_403
sl00sh
These are names that strike me as to no contribution or whatsoever. So far all I got from the thread is town calling town scum because they think they are playing better than the other. Well, maybe there is scum involved in all of this, but I can't differentiate really.
Can you guys ALL post please? So, most of the town has posted, and he feels really on the fence about it all, so the best thing to do is give up and move onto new targets? His whole filter is posting disguised as contributions. Zephirdd is today's Lynch candidate #1.Toad and talis are weird due to their interactions with each other. One is, why the heck are you putting stuff in spoilers? The contents of it are clearly written in a way addressing others, yet they are playing this weird lovey dovey send secret messages to each other junks. Toad points out huge problems in talis' mason thought post but doesn't move to call him scum / convince others. Talis responds by doing the same thing. Talis then moves on to ask inane questions. Toad seems to care about what's actually going on in thread so he isn't as bad. Talis is Lynch candidate #2.
Given what I posted so far my first should be explaining things, shouldn't it?
On August 03 2012 18:53 Toadesstern wrote:
Sup everyone
Talis
VE
WBG
thoughts?
Prplhz if you had to make different groups in this game. Who/how many would you end up putting in the VET-group
I realy have to spell out everything don't I?
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EPT
