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I Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
I will not be replaced | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosity Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmcc Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others:
Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes. I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this" I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:39 talismania wrote: @austin you need to compare what you said not just to what marv said, but also to what mattchew said. I don't see what you added as any different from what mattchew said, just more longwinded. now to digest the rest of that post... Here's Matt's post On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit Gonna try not to poke at this past this post, because this isn't helpful and I still think that both stages of your plan are bad. Matt is worried about (1) stupid reads and (2) connection theories. Although my (2) is slightly like Matt's (1), I'm worried about (1) shitting up the thread later with whether not posting 3 cases is scummy and (2) voting based on suspicions quantity, not quality. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 10 2012 17:31 Miltonkram wrote: Eh, screw it. I'll /in this game if people don't mind me being a little inactive for the first 12-24 hours. The players in this game look too good to pass up. No read on him yet. Here were my earlier thoughts on Risen: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote: I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. Hasn't really been activity since then, so my read is roughly the same. I don't like that a lot of his filter is about how he's going to play this game, with the rest being non-reads and his statement that he doesn't like to make reads early. I still don't know what to make of the statement about not liking to make reads early. It doesn't fully correspond with past games. I said I'd go back and look, and I did. SSB:+ Show Spoiler + On July 03 2012 04:26 Risen wrote: How can you be agreeing with this? iGrok you've hosted this before I feel like your giant cred post at the very beginning was an attempt to make everyone confirm you as town right off the bat, but as someone coming in late to the party I think your behavior is very scummy and I don't think someone who knew how this game worked would suggest your plan. We should be minimizing town stock loss. What do you mean "if the scum don't follow us it's clear who they are". Yeah no shit, this plan works out perfect for them why wouldn't "they" follow it. The more I think about it the more I KNOW you wouldn't post some stupid idea like this as town. Add to this your removal of two people from the item position list? What the heck man. All you've done by removing two people from the item list is make it so mafia has a better chance of getting an item. Want to minimize mafia chance of item while maximizing town chance so we're not double stacking? Then have us go down the list in numerical order and say that's left, bottom left, center, etc. Same for left, center, right on the position discussion. I'm going to be voting iGrok for lynch at this point. On July 03 2012 07:02 Risen wrote: Don't post in big caps. I was wrong on that, cool. Fact remains we have a smaller buffer. No need to shout. I'm almost 100% iGrok is scum. He doesn't get heated like this usually. Within the first day of SSB, he's decided two players are scum. However, his Cephiro read DOES match up with what he said this game, that he likes connection cases, because he finds Cephiro scummy based on his finding iGrok scummy Area 53: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote: I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too. On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote: Honestly johnnywup is my biggest scumread atm Pac. I have no idea why he thinks forwarding another lynch candidate at the last second is a good idea, and it just shits up the thread. Do we take the case against him seriously? Do we try and organize everyone to swap their votes over to zeph even though no one else has mentioned zeph as a serious candidate thus far? We can't do that, we don't have the time. I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim. Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess. I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel. ##vote marvellosity On April 23 2012 06:45 Risen wrote: Risen was scum this game, threw around a good number of votes in thread but not as many actual reads as above. Again, focused heavily on connections like who was voting for VE or who found him scummy after the "Risen is scum" idea was proposedWhat kind of stupid shit is this? By request of jubjub Pac I'll respond. Wishy washy? What the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game? How the hell could ANYONE have true feelings of someone being scum that early on. You can have policies that guide you, such as kill every idiot you see, like anyone on VE or lynch lurkers like BM, but you can't possibly have feelings of people being scummy that early on. Only people who are atrocious at this game would take that point seriously. Oh look, we have pac taking it seriously. I'm so shocked. You say this posting looks like Toad from LI? Awesome. I'm not Toad. Also, where do you get me being SUBMISSIVE to layabout. The guy was playing like an idiot and I called him out on it. If you count me apologizing for cursing as being "submissive" then you need to get your head checked. How can you go from me voting layabout to trying to get approval from him. Stupidity at it's finest. BUT Pac wants me to address this piece of shit case so lets keep going. On to your little bullets. 1) I've been busy as all hell, but I've been trying to come in and read and post instead of lurk. Screw it, I should have just lurked. You're right, posting in the thread is anti-town. My bad, I was wrong. I'll stop posting. 2) Not taking a solid stance? I SAID DONT DIRECT BLUES. IT IS BAD. How much more solid does it get? What do I have to do to make it more solid? 3) A flimsy vote on layabout? You right... because votes before a day has passed in the game are going to be super solid. Oh wait. They're not. Only an idiot or scum would try and say something like this. I'm leaning idiot because at least your vote isn't with the derps on VE. 4) I like how you call me passive and then point number 4 is saying I'm being too aggressive. This case is air tight guys, let's all get on the Risen choo choo. Right Janaan? 5) People don't have lives my b I always forget about that. I wasn't supposed to head back to Vegas until next weekend and when I signed up for this game it didn't matter anyways. It took two years to start, though, and I've only been able to read the thread from my phone. Now I'm able to type on a keyboard and tear this horrid case to shreds. I'll sum this case for all you dolts voting on me. Risen isn't playing like his town play usually is (but lets not link any of Risen's filters and quote anything from previous games, lets just SAY that's how it is and pray people don't actually check his filters.) Wow. Slam dunk case Paq, glad I took the time to respond to it. Why are you on me again? I don't have much time, I'm driving back to Flagstaff very shortly. I'm going to cut all this nonsense short and post cases against every person on VE. They're all idiots and/or scum who should be killed. GoT:+ Show Spoiler + On March 23 2012 06:01 Risen wrote: Everything about this post screams emotional overreaction to being voted with something that is clearly not a serious vote. For reasons I can't put my finger on, I get the feeling from this post that Acro is either horrible, horrible town, or trying to just talk with mattchew so they can generate discussion that looks pro-town. Makes me feel like Acro and mattchew are both scum. More proof of my earlier feeling. Even more... Entire post is about how he wants to lynch Mattchew... but the last line is telling. He's clearly giving himself an out for when he decides miraculously not to vote mattchew because "someone more scummy" has come along. A legitimate post calling out a lurker. My feeling: [r]scum[/r] He's the most scummy read I have thus far. On March 23 2012 06:04 Risen wrote: Most of my problems with Mattchew have been summed up in my post on acro. He's either town who is seriously focusing on one guy who other people find suspicious (why should he spend so much time refuting what this guy is saying), or he's scum and coasting by arguing with another mafia guy. Neutral read for now. Scumread on Acro, although a good ways into D1. Finds Mattchew possibly scummy based on his interactions with Acro. I stopped at that point, although there's a little more GoT D1 and LI. But he DOES look like he makes a lot of his reads, even D1, off of connections. The game in which he was most active with voting, he was scum. For now I still find his filter this game odd, because it's quite a few posts to not have reads, but past games make me less uneasy about his statement that he doesn't like to scumhunt early, it's not just making an excuse to coast for a day or two this time around. Right now I'm leaning town on him, because of his response at the end of SSB64. In the scum QT there, Acro and Cephiro talk about how to deal with him, and note that "if he learned to control his rage and angst i think he'd be a really good player." So for now, I think that while his filter seems off, it's off because he's trying to actually do that. I think that also addresses some of your worries here On July 13 2012 05:15 gonzaw wrote: because the kind attitude and posting style are perhaps an adjustment from the norm.However, his "kind" attitude and way he's posting make me wary. Like, the way he posts is very weird and would certainly call people's attention....but isn't it too obvious perhaps? Like, it seems he doesn't really care how people see him, which doesn't make me that confident in thinking he's scum. But meh, I'd appreciate people's thoughts on him Oh, I've been ninjaed by your other post. I'll respond to that shortly. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 13 2012 05:46 gonzaw wrote: austinmcc: I'll ignore his 1st post since it has nothing worthwhile in it. [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me[/QUOTE] That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw?[/QUOTE] Big fluffy post. Like talis said, he seems to "add" something to the "talis' plan is bad" discussion....but he doesn't add much at all. Saying it will clog up the thread is not news, and Mattchew and others said what was wrong with the plan before. The worst thing is he makes a great deal out of it by basing his whole post on that part. I say basing his "whole" post because his 2nd paragraph is like the biggest pile of fluff ever. Did you really need to post so much just to ask "What do you guys think of gonzaw's scum play?" or something? Like...your whole post could be reduced to "tali's plan is bad and I want to know how you guys catch gonzaw as scum", which means your post is SOLELY filler, and as you can see that statement alone doesn't contribute anything about the game either. Really...that post is pretty bad. [QUOTE]On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote: [QUOTE]On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosity [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote: [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing: since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others).[/QUOTE] no next [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people.[/QUOTE] Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmcc [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me[/QUOTE] That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw?[/QUOTE] Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. [/QUOTE] Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, [quote]He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. [/quote]this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others:
Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes. I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads?[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. [/QUOTE] Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this:[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. [/QUOTE] When he speaks about DropBear later, we get:[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this" I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic.[/QUOTE] He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts.[/QUOTE] Talking about bad posts. That 1st part is absolutely unnecessary. He keeps talking about tali's plan and tali's accusation of him, but why? Talis said that austin was suspicious because he didn't add much about his criticism of his plan before.....so why did he feel the need to explain everything about how bad that plan is after being called out? Talis didn't tell him "you are suspicious because you can't find reasons why my plan is bad", so why did he spend like 4 paragraphs and a wall of text to explain so? Even more importantly....why does it matter? How could heavily debating why tali's plan was bad (even after 90% had already stated why) be any helpful at all? It just clutters things up and makes your post look big, and of course it just makes it so you appear active and contributing when you haven't done shit until then. The 2nd part is equally bad: [quote]I'm more interested in Risen though[/quote] [quote]He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. [/quote] WTF!!?? So the player you find most interesting is one you think is town? Also I don't get it, he seems to accuse Risen of many things, but then says he thinks he's town, but then he keeps accusing Risen. That seems very inconsistent, what does he actually think of Risen? If he thought Risen was town...why waste his post on posting his thoughts on someone he thinks is town? Why not ignore it and post about someone he thinks is scum? As you can see...later he never posts anything at all about who he thinks is scum, nothing. Just like S&B's accusation of austin, austin accuses Risen but never mentions him later (albeit he didn't have that many posts). That seems fishy as fuck. Okay, I guess this is how you read Gonzaw. Nice to see everything that's fallen out of his poking half the thread, will be looking it over after posting this. Well, here's my response I guess. (1) So everyone agrees that the Talismania bits come off weird, and don't seem townie. 'Cause Talismania comes off weird to me, and I guess that made my thoughts on him and response less than clear. In the beginning, he proposes a plan expecting it to get negativity. Been clear that he expected that. Except he then engages some magical Part 2, in which he wants to get information from how people shat on it. Really, I still don't like this second stage. Because you end up with is "Here are 7 people that didn't like the plan, and here's how some of them didn't like it in non-novel ways," then you got us nothing. It's a lot of posting, and what seems like activity, for nothing. And seriously, what did we actually take away from the Plan Part 1 or Plan Part 2? I don't think we got anything out of it at all. If I don't think Part 2 was helpful, then I'm not going to like him trying to call me out for that. Look at my response, and see that there's a difference between me (1) pointing out why the initial plan was bad and (2) pointing out why Part 2, where he says I didn't contribute anything new. I'm addressing why my critiques were different than the ones already made, and to the extent that I'm rehashing what those critiques were, it's to show that they were different. Basically, nobody liked Part 1. Talis pulls out Part 2, calls me scummy with it. I don't think Part 2 is helpful to town, and I think he's misrepresenting my earlier post, saying that there was nothing new. That's what I'm responding to, it's a little convoluted because it's both me trying to show where he's misrepresenting what I'm saying, but also the whole time I'm writing that Part 2 of this plan isn't sitting right with me. Was it brief? No. Was it particularly well thought-out? No. But I wouldn't say that I'm usually brief. Both in game and in obs chats I tend to be a little wordy. (2) As to the Risen bits, you're misreading and Marv is correct. Those were Risen's thoughts on dropbear: + Show Spoiler + As Marv pointed out "He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said" was my summary of Risen's posts. You must have missed them, because my words there are exactly what Risen said about DropBear. That's the only actual read he'd given at this point, and it was summed up by my quote. I'm not posting in a confusing manner there, I'm showing how DropBear posts were confusing and you just missed them earlier. As to the rest of the bit on Risen, I was weirded out by this post. Just straight up says he doesn't like making reads without connections. Yet that's what EVERYONE has to do D1 basically. I went back through his filter and he does lean towards connection cases, so I'm less weirded out by it but...did this not strike other people as odd? Not just it's too early, but it's too early + I don't like making reads without connections. If you're scum, it's an easy way to coast through a few days. If you're town, then what's the reasoning? I assumed the reasoning was he didn't like making reads early because he didn't trust them much. That's why my response has some feel-good crap in it about how it's fine being wrong, because I don't see the reasoning behind that statement unless it's "I don't like that my early reads are wrong." Overall Gonzaw, you misread my stuff on Risen. I responded to your concerns about him, but reread the back half of my bad post and see if it looks better once you actually look at his posts on DropBear. That stupid quote from me was basically what he'd said. You also, and this is important, because I'm not liking Talismania right now, misread both the fallout from Talismania's plan AND my post. My post is addressing his Part 2, showing why one of the few things he's offering up as the reason he started Part 1 is him being disingenuous about what I'd added. I think you're being slightly disingenuous as well when you say .. okay, seriously. My computer won't accept end quote tags all of a sudden. That's why I keep giving URL links. Gonna have to fix this. But you say "Even more importantly....why does it matter? How could heavily debating why tali's plan was bad (even after 90% had already stated why) be any helpful at all? It just clutters things up and makes your post look big, and of course it just makes it so you appear active and contributing when you haven't done shit until then." (1) 90% of people hadn't already stated why it was bad. Look at Talis's little summary of people who commented. It's 7 people long, and one of them is him misinterpreting your post. That's not 90% of the thread. (2) Again, I'm not saying why the plan was bad. I'm trying to say that he's incorrect in saying I didn't add anything. I think he's really stretching what people have said to try and make it seem like Part 2 of the plan was somehow helpful, when really it's not. ##Vote: Talismania I don't buy this two-part plan nonsense, and I don't think it's helpful at all. | ||
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On July 13 2012 00:00 talismania wrote: you know for all the shit that plan predictably gets at least it never fails to generate a few pages of discussion. Btw the only time people ever followed a version of it was in bastard 2, but that was because I had a gun and no one else did (and it worked then). The point of it is and always has been to see how people react to it or comply with it, not who they accuse or whatever. He just wants to use the mention of the plan to generate discussion. Then he wants to look at those reactions. Looking at the reactions and trying to make something out of them is the Part 2 that I'm talking about. Yes, it's not a shuttle launch or anything, but it seems pretty clear from his post that he's proposing the 3-case plan as part of a second plan, to look at reactions. Thing is, that second part is as worthless as the first. If he KNOWS that the plan predictably gets shit, then aren't the reactions bogus? Everyone is going to shit on it. There won't BE discussion and nobody's going to comply. Look at how it played out. He gets 6-7 reactions (if you don't count Gonzaw, who apparently wasn't trying to comply). That means 1/2 the rest of the thread commented. They all didn't like the plan. What are we supposed to learn from that? People who didn't like it, but weren't the first to not like it, are scum? What's the train of thought that gets you to that conclusion? | ||
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On July 13 2012 08:47 talismania wrote: @austin first as to this "two-part" business - the second part was not planned at all from the beginning. That was more of a lemonade from lemons let's see if there's anything there On July 13 2012 00:00 talismania wrote: you know for all the shit that plan predictably gets at least it never fails to generate a few pages of discussion. Btw the only time people ever followed a version of it was in bastard 2, but that was because I had a gun and no one else did (and it worked then). The point of it is and always has been to see how people react to it or comply with it, not who they accuse or whatever. If it's not planned at all, then you went in only thinking that everyone would post 3 cases. Except you know that it predictably gets shit, so there's no reason to think it would work here. You say the second part was not planned at all, but also say the point is ALWAYS to see how people react, and then filter those reactions. As to the vote, your filter is really heavily weighted towards talking about the plan, responding to criticism of the plan, and two people you think it shook out, DropBear and I. I think all of that is nonsense, and when you brush that aside your filter some roleblocker chatter and then another post or two. I want to see more, stuff unrelated to the plan. | ||
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On July 13 2012 08:35 marvellosity wrote: There's no scumhunting in s0lstice's filter. There are leading questions to which he never provides his own opinion Some of his questions seem to be for basic information. Like his question to sciberbia about Keirathi, it looks like he wants information, but it's not the sort of question that he'd follow up with a response. However, his questions towards Vivax and Keirathi are pushing something. No followup on the Keirathi bit, but I also don't see a response from Vivax, so there was nothing to respond to there. I agree that he hasn't done any scumhunting, which is out of place for him. But when you look closer at the questions he has asked but not followed up on, I'm not finding his lack of response damning. He can't really follow the sciberbia question up, unless he didn't feel like sciberbia's answer was enough. He can't follow up the Vivax question because there was no response. Waiting for his thoughts on Gonzaw and Vivax currently. | ||
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I think the Keirathi/verbosity comment is also a no-go for me. What's he supposed to tell us he thinks? That the verbosity on lurkers is indicative of trying to have filler which is indicative of scumminess? IF that thought is there, I would expect it to pop up later with a couple other thoughts in a case on Keirathi. Both Keirathi questions are also before sciberbia gives his answer to solstice, so I can also see the verbosity question as trying to feel out Keirathi. The answer to everything is still nothing, but I make less out of that than you do, because I don't think he can really give thoughts to 1/2 those things. I'd rather see what he thinks of Vivax, Gonzaw, and the last few hours in the thread. | ||
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On July 13 2012 23:00 gonzaw wrote: Yeah I read that, but since he changed the setup a little bit I don't know how much the chances of there being a SK are (or if there is one 100% or something). Meh I guessed I derped with that question. Hmm, now that I think about it the more flips there are we can determine how many scum there are. Like, each time a cop flips we add a "C" (or "CC", etc), if a VT flips we add "T", etc. In the end we can know (based on all the Ts,Cs, Bs and shit that flipped or are claimed) exactly how many scum/SKs are and how many of them are. I'll try to keep tabs personally. We can't full-on do this, one reason I was asking WBG before game started. I've tried in his last few minis, and his adjustments mean that you can't follow the normal C9++ setup. Not gonna post something big here, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen 1-shot jailers/cops in his minis and I haven't seen multi-shot vigs. That means that the entire town side is different in his setup from C9++. The fact that he's said he adjusted some %s AND we're seeing a different makeup of roles means that we can't really game things like this. | ||
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On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote: Secondly, it's like he's voting me because... I'm unhelpful. What? Yeah, that's part of it tbh. Remember? On July 13 2012 09:02 austinmcc wrote: As to the vote, your filter is really heavily weighted towards talking about the plan, responding to criticism of the plan, and two people you think it shook out, DropBear and I. I think all of that is nonsense, and when you brush that aside your filter some roleblocker chatter and then another post or two. I want to see more, stuff unrelated to the plan. It's the same as one of the things I didn't like about Risen, being unhelpful but in a particular way. With you, almost all your contributions were plan-related, including your reads. With Risen, he basically just says "Don't like giving reads D1." I don't want two players in a mini to skate through without giving legitimate reads. I was serious when I said I wanted to see more stuff, you've provided, so ##Unvote Not helpful for me to leave my vote on you. I also don't love the company it was keeping. Still not loving things like this contradiction - + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 08:47 talismania wrote: @austin first as to this "two-part" business - the second part was not planned at all from the beginning. That was more of a lemonade from lemons let's see if there's anything there On July 13 2012 00:00 talismania wrote: you know for all the shit that plan predictably gets at least it never fails to generate a few pages of discussion. Btw the only time people ever followed a version of it was in bastard 2, but that was because I had a gun and no one else did (and it worked then). The point of it is and always has been to see how people react to it or comply with it, not who they accuse or whatever. Keirathi, to some extent, fits this same pattern. Throughout the game, he's been noting that he'd prefer to make reads based on patterns. But all this information that people want to use later, patterns, associations, only come if we have activity early and things to work off of. I agree with marv and sciberbia that his early play was very neutral. However, I get a town feeling from his response to solstice (contributing when didn't have to, decent assessment of solstice's milton case), and I'm okay with his response to gonzaw about meta - we ARE heavily discussing past games and general playstyles a lot here. If nothing else, hopefully most of this meta nonsense is being used improperly, and WBG and Chill are both fuming at us. Continuing to look at voting options, but seriously...some increase in read validity due to associations or patterns is less valuable to town than actually having contributions from people, even if you have bad early reads. | ||
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On July 13 2012 08:42 Risen wrote: Where are these thoughts? When are you going to contribute? Hey so I'm driving to vegas atm and then working out once I'm there. Sorry I dropped off the map. My vote won't be staying where it is. Reading while driving is stupid but from what I've scanned austin looks sketchy as shit with his town read on me. I'll be more thorough tonight when I'm able to sot down and read. Afaik we have a good day and a half left right? Or is it just a day Nobody but me really responded to Gonzaw's slight suspicions of Risen. Solstice is of two minds - + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 23:38 s0Lstice wrote: quick ninja post while I should be working, regarding my thing with Risen there are two conflicting ideas that I had some difficulty assignment weight to -Risen is genuinely trying to improve his town play, and will deviate from his meta as a result -Risen is matching a few key things in his scum meta His desire to change his playstyle did seem genuine, especially in the post-game of SSB. I ended up assigning more weight to the second idea though because I believe it is very difficult to escape one's meta, as it is something that largely stems from the subconscious. However, the difficulty involved in ending up where I did was enough to make me want to pursue Milton primarily. Oh fuck you Marv, ninjaing me. I'll go ahead and post this. | ||
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On July 14 2012 02:40 DropBear wrote: I do not support a Risen lynch. He stated that he is busy and I liked some of his earlier stuff once he got past filler about smilies. Specifics please | ||
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Actually, I'm wondering this as well, specifically, why is marv your choice? | ||
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Your slip wasn't a slip. Risen's nonsensical read on DropBear had also been brought up and discussed. I mentioned it in my first post. Gonzaw misinterepreted it and wrote about it. Marv pointed that out. I pointed that out. Other people pointed it out. Those 3 posts of Risen on DropBear had already popped up and been batted around a little. You basically grabbed 2 posts in which he does nothing, ignored all the other posts in which he does nothing, then poked at something that has already been wtf?ed at. | ||
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Vivax looks scummy in his hopping around, all the meta nometa crap. But Vivax ALWAYS looks scummy to me. I mislynched him in newbie XVI, I found him scummy in LVI (alignment unknown as of yet), and so I don't really want to vote him D1. To me, he's an easy mislynch to push if I'm scum. He's so wrapped up in this person's meta or that person's meta that the scum team should be telling him to knock it off, right? There were plenty of other options for today's lynch, we had so many scattered votes at the start of the day. So why let him keep hanging himself? Don't like it. marv and solstice, how are you seeing Vivax right now? Risen still doesn't look great either. He comes back with a full scum team, an alternate scum in Gonzaw, and finds my finding him townie scummy. No activity --> 5 scum reads, with only a little reasoning backing that up. And now he tunnels Vivax, who again I always seem to find scummy and could see myself trying to mislynch if I were scum. At the moment, I'm willing to consolidate onto Vivax or Risen if needed, but probably not Keirathi in light of his most recent response(s). For now, my vote's going on solstice. Something really bugs me about him finding my early game to match my townie play. Yes, the length is always there, but my early posts were a mess. Gonzaw's right about that, marv is right that they look off. I wasn't pressured at all really in my newbie games, barring XIII which was just an odd game to play in. I think my response to a little pressure here was way off, because while I normally post lengthy, it's not so disorganized and jumbled. Concerned that he didn't pick up on that. That little thing keeps nagging at me enough that I'm willing to vote him. ##Vote: Solstice | ||
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You should know why I asked you that question about Vivax looking scummy or looking like Vivax earlier. It's the same thing about him always looking scummy. As to talismania, yes, that first post or two was awful. Check later on, where I say one thing I really want is non-plan related stuff from talismania. He agrees with me. He posts finally. I unvote. Look at his filter, take a peek. Apart from the plan, the other plan, and being suspicious of dropbear and I because of the plan...there ain't much. I wanted at least more than what we had, and I got it. But for all his D1 filter, 80% or more of it is just nonsense about the plan, and I wanted some thoughts and reads unrelated to that that I/we can sift through. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: Vivax | ||
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On July 14 2012 07:01 marvellosity wrote: Don't. You'd call him out in a post in which you voted me and also mentioned a third guy you'd vote for if you couldn't get a swap onto me. I called him out like 3 times this evening for disappearing but no-one cared apparently | ||
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At the risk of repeating myself, I hate that Matt has disappeared close to lynch time when his last post was that he was going to read into the candidates. At the moment obviously I prefer austin but I could consolidate on to Dropbear.[/QUOTE] I hate that Matt has disappeared I'm voting austin, could consolidate on Dropbear Will I vote Mattchew? I dunno! Am I going to push anyone on Mattchew? I dunno. But I'm going to push austin. If you want a mattchew lynch, push a mattchew lynch. You're actively trying to get votes to me, while finding others scummy, while also mentioning mattchew. | ||
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On July 14 2012 12:39 gonzaw wrote: This is just too much. I had him as townie in early game but I can't believe a town Mattchew would do something like this, unless he was somehow hospitalized right after he made that post or something. Damn, I really thought he was town wtf is going on? :/ First glance through the thread, I was leaning real town on him. Like...some posts come off very townie: + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 10:44 Mattchew wrote: Correctly identifies what you were doing (reading thread decently close). Doesn't care that he was one of those people. Doesn't feel need to respond here.He wasn't pushing lurkers he was pushing people that posted that sounded excited to participate and post and then didn't. On July 12 2012 22:43 Mattchew wrote: he is trying really really hard, and once again he is explaining his entire thought process. I dont think i have ever seen him as scum, but this is the exactly how he plays as town On July 12 2012 22:48 Mattchew wrote: can't i just be blinded and not have to read 1000 pages of filter to see the difference between him as scum and him as town On July 12 2012 22:52 Mattchew wrote: Very playful tone in his discussion with marv of you, Gonzaw. Doesn't promise to go look at your Liar Game thread, just blows it off without worry. Drops a stupid comment at the end.lets just call him confirmed town over and over again and maybe scum will do our read for us.. and if not we lynch him day 3 oh shit they can read this too cant they On July 13 2012 07:43 Mattchew wrote: This post actually gives me mixed feelings. On one hand, it's relatively insightful, again showing matt is reading thread and occasionally posting a decent, if short, thought. But at the same time, keirathi isn't saying "I'm town because I take lots of notes." He's saying, "Those reads were forced because I don't like to make early reads" (which i still dislike anyone saying). matt's post sort of misses the mark, thinking that keirathi is saying he is playing like he did as town, but I still like the insight?So you know that you do this as town, whats to stop you from doing so as scum? However, there's a common thread in all of those posts that none are really insightful or townie-looking scumhunting. Matt's scumhunting/votes tell a very different story. Matt + sciberbia + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 02:43 Mattchew wrote: Marv I want to disagree with you so bad, but I was wrong about something JUST LIKE this is MTG mafia... hmm I don't like the way sciberbia has been posting... it all seems forced as hell like the way he says He clarifies that he's only saying this cause gonzaw asked, kinda reads to me like hes paranoid about not answering a question in the thread On July 13 2012 04:55 Mattchew wrote: Also, marv and gonz, what do you think of scib On July 13 2012 07:13 Mattchew wrote: Lets kill talis, Keirathi or scib Talis cause he's proposing anti town plans and then backpeddling super fast Keirathi cause he's posting super carefully, and his reads seem forced scib cause he seems hesitant to post, and he posts this (it was spoilered) as he has not pushed a single read yet On July 13 2012 07:13 Mattchew wrote: ##vote sciberbia He's got a tiny suspicion on sciberbia. He asks gonzaw and marv about sciberbia. Both respond with short statements, but find sciberbia townie - + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 05:00 marvellosity wrote: hmmm. scib looks ok to me at the moment. Matt's vote stays on sciberbia for the rest of the day. No more reasoning posted. No attempts to get anyone to switch. No comments from him as to whether he'd consolidate onto dropbear or vivax, although he does respond to Gonzaw at some point that he doesn't find dropbear scummy. Do not like. Like...the vote feels off. The questioning with no reaction feels off. Not participating at the end feels off. Asking about the votecount and the time left shows concern about the lynch, yet leaving his vote on sciberbia uselessly shows no concern about the lynch. His actions and his vote are in direct conflict with the posts that seem townie. Also during all the voting, On July 14 2012 03:30 Mattchew wrote: Imma read into risen now No risen read ever posted, despite coming back to thread to ask about the votecount and how much time left. Here's something to consider as well, but I don't know that it matters much. Matt posts that he's going to sheep marv. Matt never sheeps marv. Okay, that's just dumb but not really scummy. But... On July 14 2012 03:17 Mattchew wrote: town read and he's smart gonz is town too imo but his day 1 reads are usually meh at best no offense Nobody else seemed concerned about this. I'm guessing nobody knows why I asked this? Take a look at marv's last 5 town games: MTG unthemed mini (both played) - D1 marv votes Mouldy Jeb (town), D2 pushes zealos (scum) bang bang (mattchew didn't play) - D1 marv suspects RoL (town), shoots Gonzaw (cop) movie star (both played) - D1 marv votes Zentor (town), D2 marv votes mattchew (scum), and N2 shoots VE (town) LVI (both played) - D1 marv votes foxtrotter (town), N1 shoots drwiggl3s (town) NMMII (mattchew didn't play)- D1 marv votes drwiggl3s (town), N1 shoots MsZontar (town) Recent games, Marv is 0/5 on D1. 0/3 on vigi shots. 2/4 on D2 reads. Mattchew PLAYED in three of those games, so he's seen this. No offense marv, you know I agreed on a chunk of those reads and pushed some of those players, but your D1 reads, empirically, aren't good for sheeping. I didn't post that summary yesterday because matt didn't look like a lynch candidate and I thought that, if it did anything, it would just derail thread, because nobody was talking about matt really. Plus, it's not quite ... scummy? It shows he's not paying full attention, not really having solid reasoning, but it's not outright scummy to be wrong about marv's D1 reads being better than gonzaw. However, it gave me pause. Something to think about. Given that some of mattchew's POSTS look townie, whereas his actions and his vote don't, I'm finding him scummy right now. I'm not looking back through newbie guides and stuff at the moment, but that's a thing right? Isn't that some magical ace rule, to look at the actions over the posts? The sheeping marv business is mostly null, maybe SLIGHTLY scummy, but just something I'd maybe like to get people's thoughts on. | ||
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s0lstice is still on my radar. Again, it's little things, nothing outright megascummy, but the players who are most scummy D1 never seem to actually be scum. So, just some little things: On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: (Here's where Gonzaw suspects me. I'm not just chopping it out and making it seem like I wasn't in this post) Solstice references this post twice, in what feel like slightly different ways. On July 12 2012 10:15 s0Lstice wrote: As far as the names you listed, I wouldn't want to kill any of them right now. Austin has easy town meta, I feel confident I can recognize it. Mattchew, Risen, and s&b are just blank pages. I am nervous however of Risen making a conscious effort to change his play-style. I read him right in SSB64 but just barely. On July 12 2012 10:51 gonzaw wrote: Does anybody think one of those guys above I mentioned could be scum? (I'd post why I think they are town but only if there are suspicions on them). Well...maybe I'm going too fast though :/ On July 12 2012 10:57 s0Lstice wrote: it's not too fast. day 1 is weird, and it only really gets going when people do what you do. right now I'd want to hear from Vivax, mainly. my dear Vivax, what do you think of the people gonzaw posted about? do you find it scummy that they appeared excited to post, yet didn't say much past their intro? Again, it's not...outright scummy. But it's odd to me that he doesn't want to kill anyone with low post counts, they're blank pages. Then he turns around and says "it's not too fast" when Gonzaw thinks he's getting ahead of himself. It's...off? Those three are blank to solstice, they haven't posted enough. But it's not too fast to start throwing suspicions around. Another: On July 12 2012 08:19 Keirathi wrote: Well, ideally since this is not a newbie game, we shouldn't have townies lurking much. Its a bit different in newbie games because people don't really know how to play, and since everyone here should have a decent idea of how to play, then people lurking is strategy rather than ignorance. That's not to say that I think lynching lurkers is a particularly good idea, but looking into lurkers has more merit in this type of game than a newbie one.. On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Again it's not a scummy thing. But...was keirathi really being "verbose" here? He's got like...3 sentences about lurkers. He's responding to sciberbia, who also wrote 3 sentences about lurkers. solstice's later comment: On July 13 2012 10:21 s0Lstice wrote: Again, it just feels a little bit off. That WAS keirathi's biggest post. It IS a throwaway topic. But on rereading, I just didn't find it verbose. This is a retarded thing for me to nitpick. I know it's a retarded thing to nitpick.-keirathi's most lengthy post is on a safe zone topic. I want him to know I noticed that, and apply a little pressure. | ||
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WoF - No spreadsheet/list easily visible and I'm lazy. I think no sk. Believe he's tweaked system since then. Emergency - 5 vts, 3 scum, sk, 4 blues Movie mini - 6 vts, 3 scum, sk, 3 blues It's NOT C9++. It's different. It's different enough that you can't extrapolate from C9++. Stop. You're speculating a 4 VT, 2 scum, 9 blue setup? How would that ever be balanced? It's so ridiculously far from balanced that it's not worth speculating about Bugs's system right now. He tends to use less 1-shot roles (except for vigis), he said less masons and less/no ICs, and we know his scum rolls are different. But without specifics from him, we can't really figure out or game the setup and shouldn't be trying. | ||
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On July 15 2012 09:50 gonzaw wrote: I'd like people to come in and state what they want this D2 (i.e who they want to lynch, which player they want more info from, stuff like that). If not we'll be like last day where it was 5 hours before the deadline and nobody had any idea of what to do. (1) not have gonzaw speculate about setup (2) lynch scum (3) currently would most like to lynch matt/talis, perhaps drop/solstice as other options (4) would like more info from ... dear lord, everyone? Just some thoughts: I haven't looked much at strongandbig. He hasn't really stood out in my head this game. Going to go poke around him. If any non-gonzaws find him scummy, please speak up. Milton and keirathi, can you give us one town read and one scum read other than dropbear, with some reasoning? Milton's last few posts are really dropbear focused, keirathi's somewhat so, would like to see more. dropbear, what are your thoughts on risen now? When I asked for specifics yesterday, half of your reasoning was that he suspected vivax, who was scum. Well, vivax is town now and risen has a lot more activity. so, thoughts on risen. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
In gonzaw's first big accusation post, he puts both you and I as scum, then votes me. You found my post scummy, were willing to consolidate on me. Now you're finding gonzaw scummy. Is your read stronger on one of us than the other? You think we're buddies and I was getting bussed? Could you give your thoughts on sciberbia? I notice you don't mention him at all in your filter. You said you couldn't read talismania and didn't trust your ability to read him. Can you tell us 2 things you find scummy about him and 2 things you find townie? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 16 2012 08:25 gonzaw wrote: @austin: + Show Spoiler + I'm getting a town feel off you, but some people pointed this out and I can't help but feel it's weird: On July 14 2012 05:29 austinmcc wrote: Torn on Keirathi. He's got some townie-looking posts, but they come only after he was pressured for being too neutral and guarded. Once he posts them, he's mostly checked out. Wishing there was more to work with here. (He posted as I was writing this, need to look back over) Vivax looks scummy in his hopping around, all the meta nometa crap. But Vivax ALWAYS looks scummy to me. I mislynched him in newbie XVI, I found him scummy in LVI (alignment unknown as of yet), and so I don't really want to vote him D1. To me, he's an easy mislynch to push if I'm scum. He's so wrapped up in this person's meta or that person's meta that the scum team should be telling him to knock it off, right? There were plenty of other options for today's lynch, we had so many scattered votes at the start of the day. So why let him keep hanging himself? Don't like it. marv and solstice, how are you seeing Vivax right now? Risen still doesn't look great either. He comes back with a full scum team, an alternate scum in Gonzaw, and finds my finding him townie scummy. No activity --> 5 scum reads, with only a little reasoning backing that up. And now he tunnels Vivax, who again I always seem to find scummy and could see myself trying to mislynch if I were scum. At the moment, I'm willing to consolidate onto Vivax or Risen if needed, but probably not Keirathi in light of his most recent response(s). For now, my vote's going on solstice. Something really bugs me about him finding my early game to match my townie play. Yes, the length is always there, but my early posts were a mess. Gonzaw's right about that, marv is right that they look off. I wasn't pressured at all really in my newbie games, barring XIII which was just an odd game to play in. I think my response to a little pressure here was way off, because while I normally post lengthy, it's not so disorganized and jumbled. Concerned that he didn't pick up on that. That little thing keeps nagging at me enough that I'm willing to vote him. ##Vote: Solstice What exactly went through your mind when you made this post? Did you really think Vivax or Risen were scummy? You posted reasons why Vivax could be an "easy misslynch scum would push", but you said you'd consolidate on him, and hell you actually did later (you did change your vote on Vivax later): Two things basically: 1)What exactly had Risen and Vivax have to do with your vote choice here? Did you really think solstice was more likely scum? Why did you choose to vote him over those 2? 2)What made you vote Vivax later and not talk about it? You didn't explain anything about it, even though you actually posted some reasons not to vote Vivax. After that you never mentioned Vivax or your vote on him again. Why exactly was that? (1) Vivax So, I'm finding D1 vivax scummy, as are a lot of people. He's getting wrapped up in "meta," using it here, not there, etc. etc. He attacks milton, who is my #1 townread right now, and then backs off when milton addresses ONE of the reasons that vivax found milton scummy. But, as I said, vivax ALWAYS looks scummy to me. For best results, see the obs chat for LVI (I couldn't mention this before, because LVI was ongoing, but now I can post it - http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/hmrAdwKTNFm). Check post 20 in particular, something that stuck in my head. If you notice, I ask marv if vivax was scummy or just vivax, and I ask marv and solstice at one point for their read on vivax. Solstice made that comment, marv was active in obs chat at that point. I figured they'd know what I was referencing. Right now, he feels like one of those guys where...being scummy isn't a scumtell? If that makes sense. So I'm leaning scum, but I'd rather vote someone else.I mislynched him in Newbie XV, thought he was scum with acro (who did end up scum) in LVI, and I KNOW that solstice thinks he looks scummy all the time. Therefore, he's not my #1 vote, despite thinking he's scummy. However, if push comes to shove, and he's a leading candidate, I'm willing to vote him, because, after all, he looks scummy. Risen If you check my D1, I flop all over risen. He's scummy cuz he hasn't done much but talk about smiley faces and being nicer. He's scummy cuz he gives an excuse not to scumhunt - likes to make connection cases. Then I briefly check past D1s, lots of connections. Okay, so maybe that's true, and it's not purely an excuse not to scumhunt. Then he drops his vivax/marv/solstice/austin team suspicion. We're all circlejerked together. Marv voted solstice early, wrote a little case on him. I've been finding solstice and vivax scummy. Marv has been finding me off. Like sure, we've mentioned each other, but I'm not sure where exactly he's coming from on this. Doesn't look townish, and, while he's posting cases on vivax, he doesn't really post much on the rest of us (despite earlier saying he found my town read on him scummy, he never really gets on my case). Therefore, he's back to being kind of scummy. But he's started to get active attacking vivax, so I could leave him and not vote him for him at that point. Tbh, I'm still pretty conflicted on him. 2/4 his magical circlejerk flip town. His response? Oh man, all my reads were based on scum vivax, back the drawing board. EXACTLY what I was worried about with risen and keirathi D1, and to an extent talismania (whose reads were all based on the magical plan). Risen and keirathi both said they'd rather make reads later based on connections, so they get a free pass to throw out reads D1, then say "oh man so wrong, better engage my correct read machine," and get a free day or two where they can try to not be held responsible for their reads, or to not post many. At the same time, unlike talismania or keirathi, risen's got one post that I just absolutely can't see scum making, so he's almost entirely cleared just based on that in my head. Solstice In every other game I've played, I tunnel a townie D1. I'm looking for outright scummy behavior, I think I find it, zero in, vote em. The solstice vote is, in some ways, a response to that. I DID find his play off. I DID find it odd that he found me playing to my town meta. I was off D1. If he's the Miss Cleo of austinmcc, he should have seen that (and has since come out and said so). Marv found solstice's early play odd, and has played with or coached solstice a few times. Lazy, but strongandbig or mattchew or someone also said it felt like solstice's questions didn't have as much insight with them as a past game after doing some research. So the solstice vote is - (1) I've only played with town solstice. (2) This feels off. (3) I'm going to go with my gut here, and can consolidate onto a scummy actor if needed. It seems like you've got to slip up badly to be really scummy as scum on D1. But to be just...off? Just a little different, a little not-town? I got myself convinced that it was more likely scum was hiding out in those areas. Thus, solstice vote. (2) Vivax had been mentioned enough. I don't have anything new to add when there are 14 good cases and 14 bad cases flying around against him. So I gave a really short mentioned of him being scummy. The only new thing that I could bring to the table was the obs chat of LVI, and, as LVI was still ongoing at that point, I couldn't post it. We were already having way way way more than enough Vivax talk back and forth, and I just didn't want to add more if I couldn't post the one thing I wanted to. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
I'm unconvinced. I asked earlier if anyone else had scumreads on strongandbig, because when you pressure him the two of you just go off into your own little world. I didn't see anyone speak up with a nice case. Right now I've got a townread on him, stronger than the suspicion you put on him. (1) Constantly messing up everyone's names for fun is weak, but slightly town to me. I'm glad xsksc isn't in this game, though. (2) he noticed risen's weird 4 man circlejerk scumteam (but not that 2 flipped town and risen dropped all his reads, which makes this a weak point as well) (3) I like his suspicions on solstice (4) Got on your case about C9++ musings (5) That unvote --> vivax --> unvote + vote solstice post. You found the "tone" of (5) off. I see it as a stream of consciousness post from a townie. I mean, 2 votes in the same post? It really looks like he was reading through the thread or his notes, started finding solstice more scummy, and altered his post to show that, but not deleting earlier stuff. Either that's a very skilled plant from scum, or, more likely, a townie thing. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Talismania! You're it! ##vote: Talismania Short reasons (1) The other cases on him were good. I liked sciberbia's take on it. mattchew also had his, focusing on the dropbear read. The fact that multiple players are finding him scummy, based on slightly different reasoning, feels very good to me. (2) I feel bad for unvoting him kind of. I wanted him to post non-plan stuff. He gave us a post or two (one post with thoughts on everyone), I unvoted, and then he still hasn't done much at all. (3) I got my own mothereffing reasons. Check dis: I got on talis's case about the 2-part plan yesterday. I posted unclearly. It got me scrutinized. So ask yourself...what is the defining feature of talismania's play so far this game? What one thing do you associate with talismania? It's early, so this is slightly off, I know. But the main thing associated with him is his plans, our reaction to them, etc. So here, together for the very first time, for their 1 day reunion: The Many Plans of the Amazing Talismania (1) - The initial plan - + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing: since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). (2) - Upon nobody liking it - + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 00:00 talismania wrote: you know for all the shit that plan predictably gets at least it never fails to generate a few pages of discussion. Btw the only time people ever followed a version of it was in bastard 2, but that was because I had a gun and no one else did (and it worked then). The point of it is and always has been to see how people react to it or comply with it, not who they accuse or whatever. anyhoo I think it's kind of hilarious that literally everyone commented on it. I mean speaking of scum blending in "I agree with everyone else that talis' plan isn't good" from like ten people. And the only one who didn't go "oh that's shit" was gonzaw. Which to be honest makes me lean town on him - he comes out with three names right off the bat for a decent reason at least for that early in the game. I feel a scum player would have been more cautious. Marv shitting on the plan was fairly predictable. I read his "let's lynch talis" for it though as more out of pique than as part of a cunning scum plan though. Keep this in mind as you read through
On July 13 2012 01:37 talismania wrote: No I don't think my plan was completely bogus. A variant worked in bastard 2 as you should know. I don't think it's that terrible if everyone follows it. Did I expect people to follow it? No. Did I expect people to react? Yes of course. Not sure how useful the reactions are but you can see my handydandy summary above. On July 13 2012 03:37 talismania wrote: it's half-assed because of the form it took. what I've pushed before is "everyone make case" or "everyone list impressions" and the like. I was trying to think of a way to beat the day one doldrums somewhat and thought of that on the spot and posted it. I figured no one would agree to it but at the very least it would stir the pot. Now we see the true plan. What I call part 2. He doesn't expect people to follow it, but the real plan is to read reactions. And yes, I'm still going to call it part 2, because effectively talismania is saying that this bit was the real plan all along. (4) The plot thickens - + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 08:47 talismania wrote: @austin first as to this "two-part" business - the second part was not planned at all from the beginning. That was more of a lemonade from lemons let's see if there's anything there. If I misrepresented your post then I misrepresented it I guess? You had a few more facets in there than mattchew + marv but again why add those, especially when you acknowledge in the same post that my plan is bad "which seems to be the general sentiment" (paraphrase). Again it's less about what you say and more the fact that you said stuff at all, and how you said the stuff that seems out of place to me. secondly, wtf is voting for me without even calling me scum? All you say is that my plan is bad, ergo vote (that's my understanding I hope i'm not misrepresenting again). what? Like, show me as town why you make that oversight - failing to actually connect the dots at the end from "here's the behavior and here's why it makes him scum". Did you just forget or something? Look carefully. Read it. Left to right. The second part was not planned. This is 100000% directly super-duper the opposite of what we just learned in (2) and (3) above, where he says the whole purpose is to read reactions. Now, I've said before and I stand by this - contradictions by themselves aren't scummy. It depends on what the contradiction is about, and it depends on whether there is a scum agenda you can put behind the contradiction. I don't like talismania's, because:
Bonus point! On July 16 2012 03:42 talismania wrote: INSERT MATT'S TALISMANIA CASE HERE let me get this straight. you do nothing day one except poke and prod at people. you show up near the lynch and ask when it's happening and all that but then somehow mysteriously disappear and leave your vote on sciberbia for some reason. btw you completely haven't even talked about this since it happened. you then come into the thread like nothing has happened and copy stuff everyone else has said about me and throw it together in a case. It's like you took austin's "he talks about his plan!" and dropbear's "your case is shit" and gonzaw's "you weren't around after you made a big post" and then finished it off with sciberbia's bold red text Matt looks bad, so it's easy to turn and attack him. Also, to the extent matt's case IS a bit of chimaera of earlier cases, talismania has SOMEWHAT responded to those earlier cases. But talismania doesn't address matt on his merits AT ALL. Talismania points his cannons at MATT, not MATT'S CASE, and fires away. Me no rikey. Another one of those things that isn't all that strong in and of itself, but when added onto other things, it's bad. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 16 2012 08:46 Keirathi wrote: Please do. And please respond to:Sorry, I had to make an emergency trip out of town. Posting from my phone now, but I should have access to a computer later tonight so that I can catch up and post some ideas. On July 15 2012 10:19 austinmcc wrote: At this point, maybe more than one each, and more reasoning. You have been relatively inactive. You are difficult to read because of this. That is not helpful to town. You want to help town, yes?Milton and keirathi, can you give us one town read and one scum read other than dropbear, with some reasoning? Milton's last few posts are really dropbear focused, keirathi's somewhat so, would like to see more. RISEN On July 14 2012 05:42 Risen wrote: I'm convinces at this point two of viv/s0L/marv/austin have to be scum... This is so circlejerky it hurts... it's literally flooding the thread to defend vivax. On July 14 2012 14:05 Risen wrote: Snpipet from your post gonzaw "So Risen, what do you plan to do now?" I have no idea. As I said, everything I had revolved around Viv being scum. On July 16 2012 04:44 Risen wrote: You basically avoided scumhunting for half of D1. Then you posted a 4 man circlejerk list. TWO of those guys have now flipped town. And now you've avoided scumhunting for half of D2. In fact, the closest thing that you've given us to scumhunting D2 is that you still think Vivax was scum. You are difficult to read because of this. That is not helpful to town. You want to help town, yes?Going to lunch with my mentee, going to the store, then I'll be back. I'll go through and rebuild everything with Viv as a townie in mind (still... STILL hurts me on the inside that he was town and I could be so wrong. I have never felt so certain of someone being scum) | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 16 2012 11:35 Risen wrote: What could I possibly say to confirm myself as towny to you? (whoever said he has one line that p much confirms him as town in my eyes) Not telling right now. As (maybe scummy) mattchew pointed out: On July 12 2012 22:52 Mattchew wrote: oh shit they can read this too cant they | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
We have no real D2 thoughts from you, except a promised case on sciberbia. RISEN You think Matt is playing like he did in a past scum game. You've already mentioned that. We're less than 4 hours from the deadline of a day phase. You've both basically done nothing D2. You are difficult to read because of this. That is not helpful to town. You want to help town, yes? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 17 2012 04:47 s0Lstice wrote: austin I want to hear from you on this. what do you think of Milton's point Fun answer - The last time I saw milton post that he was getting pre-lynch jitters, we lynched scum and he was scum as well. 2/3 down! Also, I'm MORE uncomfortable with the fact that Gonzaw was right about low vote counts and we had 4 people that hadn't voted 44 hours into a day phase. Real answer - I guess I fundamentally disagree with Milton here, because he references talis as making a "plan." Again, I have been struggling with talis's calling gauging reactions his true plan, and then saying that it was not planned from the beginning. Nobody, milton, talis, or otherwise, has really commented on that from what I remember, and I believe I brought it up both D1 and D2. If you look at talis's comments as contradictory, then there hasn't been a "plan" to stick to, and I don't love that milton doesn't even touch that possibility. Like...seriously. Do people think I'm wrong about those statements being contradictory? Does that indicate a townie talis? Do people agree with me but think it doesn't matter? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Hope everyone's wrists and friends improve. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
The unintelligible zergtalk in the setup is nice flavor, but makes it difficult to know exact roles. Can framers target scum and make them look town? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 15 2012 10:19 austinmcc wrote: (1) not have gonzaw speculate about setup CHECK (2) lynch scum CHECK (3) currently would most like to lynch matt/talis, perhaps drop/solstice as other options CHECK (4) would like more info from ... dear lord, everyone? Numbers 1, 2, and 4 still hold true for tonight and tomorrow. Will be revisiting 3. I really wish we'd had a more chatty day, had multiple players, too many to be scum, inactive the day away. No bueno for town-o. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 17 2012 04:50 strongandbig wrote: Hmm, I guess I'll change my vote to talismania. I should put my money where my mouth is, and I haven't been too convinced by the defences so far. I still think s0lstice and dropbear look scummy though. ##unvote ##vote: talismania On July 17 2012 06:28 Risen wrote: I'm really sdorry guys I've been with my friend in the hospital all day. I did a quick read through and I'll be voting talismania based solely upon my town reads voting for him. I have no case and I'm really sorry guys,. ##vote talismania Also, s0L I like how you bring up something I later took back about Mattchew. He went from being town in my eyes to scummy based on his posting style. Is there a reason you're trying to make it look like I'm defending Mattchew when I'm actually calling him scum? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
You ended up not posting on sciberbia. I'd like to know what made you think he was scummy before talis's flip. Like, you voted him D1, gave reasoning. You let him be while still finding him scummy until N2, then decided he was town for pushing talismania. What happened in the meantime that made you keep finding him scummy? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Note to self: never second guess a scumread based off Ace advice. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:37 sciberbia wrote: Yup yup, enjoyed it. Much better than getting masoned with scummy ol' marv for a couple days. I keed. yea I guess it would have been risky :/ i should've explicitly hinted or something. you couldn't know how I would react. For the record, mason QT blows scum QT out of the water! Fuck yea! Was really fun austin. Couldn't have asked for a better role or mason partner Gonzaw, I liked your post N3 about what the possible third scum role could be, and what it meant for various claims. Sorry all for my weird play D1. I seriously just got flustered or something, and then just kept digging myself deeper and deeper. The moment I felt I looked scummy, the more concerned I got with trying to boost my towniness, and it made me look awful. Hopefully I came back looking normal on N1 and D2. Also, thanks bugs for hosting, and for providing thoughts in obs. | ||
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