• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:54
CEST 19:54
KST 02:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202529RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Corsair Pursuit Micro? Pro gamer house photos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 933 users

I Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 09 2012 12:58 GMT
#29
/in

I will not be replaced
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 11 2012 19:09 GMT
#88
Can we know what system you're using to roll the setup?
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 11 2012 19:22 GMT
#90
Ah, alright. Your setups never seemed to come from C9++ exactly, so have been wondering.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 11 2012 23:05 GMT
#115
Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.

I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls.


Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 12 2012 02:33 GMT
#154
On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me

That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful.

What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning.

Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw?
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 12 2012 16:31 GMT
#226
On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:
Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan
(for those who care)

marvellosity

Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:
On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:

since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others).


no

next


Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:
naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)

I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.

Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.

Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!

People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people.



Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans.


austinmcc
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:
On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me

That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful.

What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning.

Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw?


Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all.


Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote.

Two things.
One,
He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all.
this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no."
Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others:
  • someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion
  • we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning
The first scenario is bad because a really good plan is going to end up "follow this or get lynched." Look at the pick your power games, liar game, etc. With your plan, we'd have to derail the thread from scumhunting and have a policy discussion later in the game about whether someone who didn't follow "the plan," didn't post 3 suspicions, was scummy or just wasn't suspicious of 3 people. Not posting 3 cases wouldn't be alignment-indicative, so we couldn't just lynch them. There'd have to be discussion of that, which would gunk up the thread. That's the full thought process behind that point. As to the second point I made, having players*3 cases in the thread could lead us to a situation where we were lynching based on case quantity and not case quality. Oh, 70% of people are suspicious of X, so we lynch him. Even if he was most people's third choice, and we had a few folks highly suspicious of Y. Ta da.

Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes.




I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads?
On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote:
I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members.



Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself.

Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this:
On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:
I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though.


When he speaks about DropBear later, we get:
On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time.

On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option.

On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote:
I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this"

I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic.

He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said.

Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 12 2012 16:54 GMT
#241
On July 13 2012 01:39 talismania wrote:
@austin you need to compare what you said not just to what marv said, but also to what mattchew said. I don't see what you added as any different from what mattchew said, just more longwinded.

now to digest the rest of that post...


Here's Matt's post
On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote:
Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit

Gonna try not to poke at this past this post, because this isn't helpful and I still think that both stages of your plan are bad. Matt is worried about (1) stupid reads and (2) connection theories. Although my (2) is slightly like Matt's (1), I'm worried about (1) shitting up the thread later with whether not posting 3 cases is scummy and (2) voting based on suspicions quantity, not quality.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 12 2012 17:03 GMT
#247
Marv do you think Vivax is scum or just being Vivax?
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 12 2012 17:04 GMT
#248
EBWOP: Sounds dumb with your vote on him, but it's a serious question.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 12 2012 21:04 GMT
#290
Milton's post is fluffy but as people keep noting every time he comes up, he said he'd be gone for 12-24 hours before the game started:
On July 10 2012 17:31 Miltonkram wrote:
Eh, screw it. I'll /in this game if people don't mind me being a little inactive for the first 12-24 hours. The players in this game look too good to pass up.

No read on him yet.


Here were my earlier thoughts on Risen: + Show Spoiler +
On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote:
I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads?
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote:
I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members.



Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself.

Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:
I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though.


When he speaks about DropBear later, we get:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time.

Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option.

Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote:
I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this"

I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic.

He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said.

Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts.


Hasn't really been activity since then, so my read is roughly the same. I don't like that a lot of his filter is about how he's going to play this game, with the rest being non-reads and his statement that he doesn't like to make reads early.

I still don't know what to make of the statement about not liking to make reads early. It doesn't fully correspond with past games. I said I'd go back and look, and I did.

SSB:+ Show Spoiler +
On July 03 2012 04:26 Risen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 04:15 kingdedede wrote:
On July 03 2012 04:09 iGrok wrote:
It's all about how difficult it is to lynch them. There are a lot of things that are -1kp in this game. Cutting everyone down from 3 to 2.5 is very nice for us because then it only takes 2 actions to kill them instead of 3 (or two lynches)

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. It's all about the vig shots. While scum kp is also 1, the chance of scum shooting someone who just got lynched is pretty small: why would they bother shooting someone who got lynched (aka: looks scummy)? However, it allows us to vig shoot someone who was lynched and not waste 2 lynches on it. Bringing down everybody's stock sounds like a good idea.


How can you be agreeing with this?

iGrok you've hosted this before I feel like your giant cred post at the very beginning was an attempt to make everyone confirm you as town right off the bat, but as someone coming in late to the party I think your behavior is very scummy and I don't think someone who knew how this game worked would suggest your plan. We should be minimizing town stock loss.

What do you mean "if the scum don't follow us it's clear who they are". Yeah no shit, this plan works out perfect for them why wouldn't "they" follow it. The more I think about it the more I KNOW you wouldn't post some stupid idea like this as town. Add to this your removal of two people from the item position list? What the heck man. All you've done by removing two people from the item list is make it so mafia has a better chance of getting an item. Want to minimize mafia chance of item while maximizing town chance so we're not double stacking? Then have us go down the list in numerical order and say that's left, bottom left, center, etc. Same for left, center, right on the position discussion.

I'm going to be voting iGrok for lynch at this point.

On July 03 2012 06:13 Risen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 06:13 Cephiro wrote:
On July 03 2012 05:59 Risen wrote:
Exactly WHAT does standing on the same platform tell us? It tells us NOTHING.


1) It gives us insight on iGrok's thoughts. (He made a very neutral/safe choice, punishing everyone or no-one, not grouping people yet, which he however IS doing in his item picks/sit-outs. He also gave a valid reasoning, it may not necessarily be the optimal choice, but I haven't seen anyone else give a better idea yet.)
2) The reactions of the players on iGrok's choices. (For example, you insist on not going left with everyone, which you haven't given a valid reason for. Or talismania willing to sit-out, even though there is no risk of a fight [Stock loss] if people follow the plan.)

So tell me, have a better idea? For now all I am seeing is that you are saying you are not going to follow the plan. (Which you say is because this gives us no information, which is false.) And in your latest posts you were thinking of dividing by the list. (Which doesn't give us any information at all.)

I can say it's not much, but it's better than nothing, and we need something to get the scumhunting started. If you're still going to go against the plan without either a) Giving a better idea or b) Giving proper reasoning, then you're certainly not looking good in my eyes.


Found the other scum. Two total? Easy game.

On July 03 2012 07:02 Risen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 07:00 iGrok wrote:
On July 03 2012 06:54 Risen wrote:
On July 03 2012 06:50 Cephiro wrote:
Because you're clearly smarter than me, would you care to explain more in-detail why do you consider that both factions losing percentually the same amount of stock out of their total, thus the ratio staying the same, is worse off for town?

If I understood right, you'd rather do a 3-2-3 split. Assuming there are 2 scum, best case scenario is if both scum end up in the middle and a tornado hits them both. Chances of this happening is (1/3)*(1/4)*(1/7) ~ 1,18%
Worst case scenario is that it hits three townies: (1/3)*(3/4)*(5/7)*(2/3) ~ 11,19%

The chance of worst case scenario happening for town is almost 10 times higher than scum, if my math is not wrong.

Can you explain me why your plan is better?

Especially as iGrok's plan only has a 33% chance of anyone taking damage, and if it happens, we all take damage in an equal ratio.



End ratio isn't equal. Someone else posted on this. Stand where you want to stand people, don't be directed. No information comes from all of us standing on a single square. Damage outweighs benefits imo. Think that sums well.

NO, HE POSTED THAT THE END RATIOS ARE EQUAL. QUIT BEING OBTUSE.


Don't post in big caps. I was wrong on that, cool. Fact remains we have a smaller buffer. No need to shout. I'm almost 100% iGrok is scum. He doesn't get heated like this usually.

Within the first day of SSB, he's decided two players are scum. However, his Cephiro read DOES match up with what he said this game, that he likes connection cases, because he finds Cephiro scummy based on his finding iGrok scummy

Area 53: + Show Spoiler +
On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote:
Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us?


I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me.

##vote layabout

I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too.

On April 22 2012 03:39 Risen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2012 03:31 slOosh wrote:
Hey layabout I think Risen is acting really off. Agree / disagree?


Oh hey look, easy wagon member #1

On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote:
Honestly johnnywup is my biggest scumread atm Pac. I have no idea why he thinks forwarding another lynch candidate at the last second is a good idea, and it just shits up the thread. Do we take the case against him seriously? Do we try and organize everyone to swap their votes over to zeph even though no one else has mentioned zeph as a serious candidate thus far? We can't do that, we don't have the time.

I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim.

Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess.

I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel.

##vote marvellosity

On April 23 2012 06:45 Risen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2012 01:16 gonzaw wrote:
Risen:

I'd like to lynch Risen and I'll tell you why

On April 22 2012 02:22 Risen wrote:
On April 22 2012 01:42 layabout wrote:
How are you feeling VE?

Any thoughts on marvellosity paqman or mattchew?


we need Risen to rise and get posting
we need ghost 403 to de-cloak
we need St.Daniel to grace us with his presence
we need Janaan to get out of bed
we need slOosh to stop fapping to Beethoven*
we need BroodkingEXE to execute som scum for us
we need Bill Murray to get his head in the game
we need Zephirrd to tell you guys to stop posting shit
we need layabout to stop with the puns lead us to victory



Yeah I'm sorry. Just woke up. I'll get posting. Posting lots is pro-town and from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy. I'd rather we put pressure on someone who isn't posting. I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting. From the last page I do have a problem with mementoss' idea. It seems solid but as you said on this page, all vigs would have to get on board. I don't like directing blues in the first place (i realize this game has special stuff going on, though, so I don't think forwarding the idea is scummy. I just don't think we should do it). Another problem with your plan mt is your directing of jailkeepers. By directing jk away from targets and the vigis you give scum a potential three kill night. They can kill the vig, another person, and then if the vigi target is town they get to laugh at us.

To sum, don't direct blues. I think there's been enough discussion about it and with no clearly best plan there's no way to get everyone behind one plan.


This post is wishy washy as hell.

First he starts by being unnecessary apologetic when laya called him out.
He posts a very wishy washy statement like "from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy". Really? That's not the town Risen I know of.

The town Risen I know of would instantly find people scummy and try to create discussion. Town Risen wouldn't stay neutral and spout wishy washy shit like "I'm not sure who's scummy".

Then he keeps trying to appear more "innocent" and neutral by saying things like "I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting".

Then the rest of the post is fluff about Mementos' plan. He doesn't seem to have a solid stance on the matter (says things like "I don't like directing blues, though I realize this game has special stuff going on") yet he just keeps talking about it.

Also, please note the tone of his post. It seems neutral, but most of all it's not aggressive at all. It seems submisive. Layabout called him out and he seems afraid and posts only because he was called out.

Also take notice of the bolded "Posting lots is pro-town" bit, I'll use it later.

On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote:
I don't get your reasoning mt or anyone else's voting for marvel. He's posting and it's very early day 1. There isn't that much to go off of so I don't think he's scummy. I hate lurkers, they always fuck us and it isn't pro-town at all. I'd rather not lynch someone who's here day 1. Posting is pro-town and I don't think we should be scaring people away from posting day 1 bc it just gives people an excuse to be worthless


He just barely comments on the marvel issue, but doesn't really take any stances. He keeps up with his "I still don't think anybody is scummy" excuse to avoid taking stances on people.
He also doesn't comment on other things happening in the thread, like VE's "case" on me, or my case against VE, or the Paqman/Mattchew issue, nothing.

Again, note the bolded bit too.

On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:
On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote:
Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us?


I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me.

##vote layabout

I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too.


Now here's the kicker.

Here he goes against layabout and votes him, and his reason is "I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me"...

...really?

I already said how this seems like Toad's play from LI. He ignores current discussion, he avoids taking a stance on the current events, and instead decides to FoS someone completely irrelevant for shitty reasons, and keeps his vote there.
This vote only disrupts town because he fails to justify it and derails current discussions.
Not only that, but it makes it so he can "justify" his vote and just leave it there, so he can fake trying to contribute.

But there's another important thing to take into account:
Notice how aggressive he's become against layabout.

Why did the tone of his post and his behaviour change so much?
In that first post he sounded afraid. Laya called him out and he sounded submissive against him, he was the opposite of aggressive.
He posted trying to please laya, had a very neutral tone, was wishy-washy and didn't take any stances.

Yet now that layabout points out Risen being suspicious, he flips and goes all crazy against him?
Really?
I don't buy that change of behaviour, it's inconsisent, it's way too sudden and doesn't make sense with the way he was posting before.


Hey, remember that bolded bits I was mentioning before? Here:
Posting lots is pro-town


He says that posting a lot is pro-town, yet he's not following his own advice and is barely posting!

So really people, Risen is scum because:
  • He barely posts at all even though he said posting a lot is pro-town and people should be encouraged to do it
  • Starts off wishy washy as hell, sounds very submissive and afraid of being called out, ignores current discussions and doesn't take stances on them, posts uninteresting fluff about directing blues while not even taking a solid stance on the matter
  • Makes a very flimsy vote on layabout and doesn't justify it at all
  • Has a very sudden change of behaviour. He becomes aggressive very quickly while his previous behaviour was the opposite of that
  • He doesn't play like when he does as town at all. As town he posts without fear or hesitation, he actively calls people out and tries whatever he can to get some discussion going. As town he posts more and pushes people more, as town he doesn't park a vote on someone irrelevant for irrelevant reasons and remains hidden for the rest of the day


So people, let's lynch Risen

##Unvote: VisceraEyes
##Vote: Risen



What kind of stupid shit is this? By request of jubjub Pac I'll respond. Wishy washy? What the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game? How the hell could ANYONE have true feelings of someone being scum that early on. You can have policies that guide you, such as kill every idiot you see, like anyone on VE or lynch lurkers like BM, but you can't possibly have feelings of people being scummy that early on. Only people who are atrocious at this game would take that point seriously. Oh look, we have pac taking it seriously. I'm so shocked.

You say this posting looks like Toad from LI? Awesome. I'm not Toad. Also, where do you get me being SUBMISSIVE to layabout. The guy was playing like an idiot and I called him out on it. If you count me apologizing for cursing as being "submissive" then you need to get your head checked. How can you go from me voting layabout to trying to get approval from him. Stupidity at it's finest. BUT Pac wants me to address this piece of shit case so lets keep going.

On to your little bullets.
1) I've been busy as all hell, but I've been trying to come in and read and post instead of lurk. Screw it, I should have just lurked. You're right, posting in the thread is anti-town. My bad, I was wrong. I'll stop posting.
2) Not taking a solid stance? I SAID DONT DIRECT BLUES. IT IS BAD. How much more solid does it get? What do I have to do to make it more solid?
3) A flimsy vote on layabout? You right... because votes before a day has passed in the game are going to be super solid. Oh wait. They're not. Only an idiot or scum would try and say something like this. I'm leaning idiot because at least your vote isn't with the derps on VE.
4) I like how you call me passive and then point number 4 is saying I'm being too aggressive. This case is air tight guys, let's all get on the Risen choo choo. Right Janaan?
5) People don't have lives my b I always forget about that. I wasn't supposed to head back to Vegas until next weekend and when I signed up for this game it didn't matter anyways. It took two years to start, though, and I've only been able to read the thread from my phone. Now I'm able to type on a keyboard and tear this horrid case to shreds.

I'll sum this case for all you dolts voting on me. Risen isn't playing like his town play usually is (but lets not link any of Risen's filters and quote anything from previous games, lets just SAY that's how it is and pray people don't actually check his filters.)

Wow. Slam dunk case Paq, glad I took the time to respond to it. Why are you on me again?

I don't have much time, I'm driving back to Flagstaff very shortly. I'm going to cut all this nonsense short and post cases against every person on VE. They're all idiots and/or scum who should be killed.
Risen was scum this game, threw around a good number of votes in thread but not as many actual reads as above. Again, focused heavily on connections like who was voting for VE or who found him scummy after the "Risen is scum" idea was proposed

GoT:+ Show Spoiler +
On March 23 2012 06:01 Risen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2012 22:54 Acrofales wrote:
Okay seriously WTF. I know I'm new to this game, but voting me for that reason alone makes no sense. In fact, it seems quite a scum move to cast suspicion on people right at the start of the game.

Or am I going overboard and it's just a way of getting people to post at the start of the game? Either way, I'm watching you and risk.nuke. Voting off the bat seems fishy.


Everything about this post screams emotional overreaction to being voted with something that is clearly not a serious vote.

Show nested quote +
On March 22 2012 02:23 Acrofales wrote:
On March 22 2012 01:50 DoYouHas wrote:
Acrofales reads exactly like newb scum to me from his first posts. His first post reads as already being defensive to me:
On March 21 2012 18:51 Acrofales wrote:
Hi everybody!

Well, Curu hasn't said I cannot speculate about Petyr's win condition. Remember that this is idle speculation, but I have read the books a number of times and if Petyr is anything, he is untrustworthy. He only serves his own means, so I am inclined to ignore everything he says, including that he is a vanilla townie

My hunch is that he must kill Ned Stark and keep Catelyn and/or Sansa alive until the end of the game to win.


And then he pulls an OMGUS on 2 different people in a very short period of time.

##Vote: Acrofales

Gumshoe, wake up and read day1 carefully. We already know who Littlefinger is 100%. It is given information. Your posts are yet to actually be relevant to the game.


What you bolded was basically a follow-up to my question before the game started:
On March 20 2012 18:13 Acrofales wrote:
Are we allowed to speculate about what Littlefinger's win condition is? I have a hunch

Unfortunately it has nothing to do with Dementors eating Daenerys baby in order to generate infinite facebook spam messages.


As for the rest, I've calmed down a bit, with later people talking about the random votes. It is my first game (ever) and I was hoping to live past the first day. People instavoting for me got me a bit upset. I am happy to unvote Matthew when a better candidate comes up, the ghost of High Heart is kinda cryptic when it comes to her prophecies It was more of a "if you vote for me, then I'll vote for you"-thing anyway.

That said, Matthew, why did you vote for me? Chaoser already had the random vote on me. The 2nd one was just mean. That vote has been the entire contribution to this game, with no explanation or text (except for a lololololol, which is even less useful).


For reasons I can't put my finger on, I get the feeling from this post that Acro is either horrible, horrible town, or trying to just talk with mattchew so they can generate discussion that looks pro-town. Makes me feel like Acro and mattchew are both scum.

Show nested quote +
On March 22 2012 05:34 Acrofales wrote:
On March 22 2012 05:16 Mattchew wrote:
On March 22 2012 03:15 Acrofales wrote:
Any further discussion will have to wait til I'm home. Be back in about an hour.

PS. I read through a couple of games before signing up for this one. It's quite different to play than to watch! :D


where you at homeslice and why should i think you are not scum

Because I'm town. How about you?



More proof of my earlier feeling.

Show nested quote +
On March 22 2012 06:21 Acrofales wrote:
On March 22 2012 06:13 Mattchew wrote:
On March 22 2012 05:34 Acrofales wrote:
On March 22 2012 05:16 Mattchew wrote:
On March 22 2012 03:15 Acrofales wrote:
Any further discussion will have to wait til I'm home. Be back in about an hour.

PS. I read through a couple of games before signing up for this one. It's quite different to play than to watch! :D


where you at homeslice and why should i think you are not scum

Because I'm town. How about you?

so you ignore the case against you and then come back with a one liner holding no information?

i say we lynch acrofales and everyone that has defended him

I'm still trying to figure out what case that is. I have already said twice now why I overreacted at first. Although I am starting to think my reaction was the right one. You're clearly not adding anything: you choose to ignore the two posts I made in defense of my overreaction, and now mention some case against me. Post your case clearly and properly and I will respond to you, but at the moment you just seem to be trolling me.


Even more...

Show nested quote +
On March 22 2012 23:39 Acrofales wrote:
Why we should lynch Mattchew:

First off, he starts building an alibi with a case made of air. I understand the pressure vote, but his follow-up was lackluster:
On March 22 2012 02:21 Mattchew wrote:
On March 22 2012 02:15 Lyter wrote:
I'd say ignore wbg at least for now, we have absolutely no idea what his motives/intentions could be, when more of a picture is formed then we should come back to it by all means.
I'm not sure on Acrofales, yea he could be flipping a shit cos he got called out so early, but his actions are hardly unlikely for a new guy anyway.

oh so your his scum teammate?

I understand that this is his character, but it is a very useless accusation. You assume I'm scum, therefore everybody who defends me must also be scum.

His main reason for calling me scum is:
On March 22 2012 03:28 Mattchew wrote:
On March 22 2012 03:26 GreYMisT wrote:
Explain to us why he is.

over defensive "im a noob" that doesn't want to be be put in the spotlight. look at his reaction compared to the other "noob" guy with a vote on him. its way more aggressive and emotionally angry.

The meta-comparison is a completely moot point, as had been pointed out by a number of people. So you were basically tunneling on me, and the reasons given are flimsy at best.

Secondly, his defense when other people start questioning his motives:
+ Show Spoiler [Reply to Zentor] +
On March 22 2012 06:10 Mattchew wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2012 05:32 MrZentor wrote:
Hello people of Mafia! It is I, MrZentor!

Anyways, I thought this started a day after it did, so I am a little late to the party.
Let me tell everybody my opinion, so you can get a good read on me!

First we have Acrofales overreacting to a vote that didn't have a basis.
On March 21 2012 22:54 Acrofales wrote:
Okay seriously WTF. I know I'm new to this game, but voting me for that reason alone makes no sense. In fact, it seems quite a scum move to cast suspicion on people right at the start of the game.

Or am I going overboard and it's just a way of getting people to post at the start of the game? Either way, I'm watching you and risk.nuke. Voting off the bat seems fishy.


He then votes for Mattchew.
On March 22 2012 00:04 Acrofales wrote:
Hodor's terribly talkative all of a sudden.

Luckily I have better sources than that. The Ghost of High Heart told me that you are scum.

##vote: Mattchew


Lyter defends Acrofales.
On March 22 2012 02:15 Lyter wrote:
I'd say ignore wbg at least for now, we have absolutely no idea what his motives/intentions could be, when more of a picture is formed then we should come back to it by all means.
I'm not sure on Acrofales, yea he could be flipping a shit cos he got called out so early, but his actions are hardly unlikely for a new guy anyway.

Then Mattchew, bad spelling in hand, attacks Lyter for defending Acrofales
On March 22 2012 02:21 Mattchew wrote:
On March 22 2012 02:15 Lyter wrote:
I'd say ignore wbg at least for now, we have absolutely no idea what his motives/intentions could be, when more of a picture is formed then we should come back to it by all means.
I'm not sure on Acrofales, yea he could be flipping a shit cos he got called out so early, but his actions are hardly unlikely for a new guy anyway.

oh so your his scum teammate?



I really don't like that Mattchew attacks Lyter for defending Acrofales, who I think at this point is innocent. It also seems silly that Mattchew is 100% positive that Acrofales is innocent over one nooby overreaction. If you look at Mattchew's filter, you will see he only said something slightly helpful when he was asked to; everything else is just him attacking other people without any real reason.

For now, I think he is most likely to be scum.


then MrZentor, bad reading comprehension in hand, makes a terrible post with his lead point of his slippery slope theory being untrue because Mattchew (who is awesome, sexy and lover of all townies) never even voted for Acrofales!

He does not answer MrZentor's questions or doubts, but instead deflects them and builds a straw man argument about whether or not he voted. This deflection is successful, because the rest of the entire page of discussion is about whether or not he actually voted: he STILL has not answered MrZentor's questions.

+ Show Spoiler [Reply to Chaoser] +

On March 22 2012 07:35 Mattchew wrote:
lol

Show nested quote +
yet he has not commented on anything else aside from tunneling acro, even when the other stuff happening in thread is tied to acro or has been a reaction to acro's posting. Mattchew has literally added nothing to the discussion while looking like he's applying pressure. It's basically false pressure.


so you want me to comment on what I am involved with already? wut?
and all i did was pressure a newbie who had a bad reaction, i just wanted to push him, and make him post some more.

The thread has talked about WBG (which is stupid), Gumshoe's "scumslip" (A common scum tactic to "catch" a townie on) and me/acro


More deflection without actually giving his opinion (except that the Acro-Mattchew controversy is the only useful thing in the thread to that point, which I disagree with).

Third, and final point: he is really trying to use meta-arguments to make himself look good in the discussion between him and DoYouHas. This is basically just useless fluff which serves only as a meta-defense as "look, I'm not a screwup noob". Okay, lets say I buy that. That leaves you being scum as the only explanation for you building a case out of air and avoiding any other meaningful discussion.



Newest info: his last post is actually something of substance, but I'm suspicious of him anyway. It might just be him realizing his gambit is failing and posting something townie. Specifically his sudden change to me being town


Entire post is about how he wants to lynch Mattchew... but the last line is telling. He's clearly giving himself an out for when he decides miraculously not to vote mattchew because "someone more scummy" has come along.

Show nested quote +
On March 23 2012 03:47 Acrofales wrote:
On March 23 2012 00:50 Risen wrote:
Class for another hour and a half, time for some reading when I get back. (Just an update for those who may think I'm lurking since I haven't posted as much as I should have)

Most useless "I'm saying I'm not, but secretly am still lurking"-post I have seen in this thread. I think you might be beating out Evantrees for king of the lurks. Remember that in the Game of Thrones kings tend to lose their heads.


A legitimate post calling out a lurker.

My feeling: [r]scum[/r]

He's the most scummy read I have thus far.

On March 23 2012 06:04 Risen wrote:
Most of my problems with Mattchew have been summed up in my post on acro. He's either town who is seriously focusing on one guy who other people find suspicious (why should he spend so much time refuting what this guy is saying), or he's scum and coasting by arguing with another mafia guy. Neutral read for now.

Scumread on Acro, although a good ways into D1. Finds Mattchew possibly scummy based on his interactions with Acro.


I stopped at that point, although there's a little more GoT D1 and LI. But he DOES look like he makes a lot of his reads, even D1, off of connections. The game in which he was most active with voting, he was scum. For now I still find his filter this game odd, because it's quite a few posts to not have reads, but past games make me less uneasy about his statement that he doesn't like to scumhunt early, it's not just making an excuse to coast for a day or two this time around.

Right now I'm leaning town on him, because of his response at the end of SSB64. In the scum QT there, Acro and Cephiro talk about how to deal with him, and note that "if he learned to control his rage and angst i think he'd be a really good player." So for now, I think that while his filter seems off, it's off because he's trying to actually do that. I think that also addresses some of your worries here
On July 13 2012 05:15 gonzaw wrote:
However, his "kind" attitude and way he's posting make me wary. Like, the way he posts is very weird and would certainly call people's attention....but isn't it too obvious perhaps? Like, it seems he doesn't really care how people see him, which doesn't make me that confident in thinking he's scum.
But meh, I'd appreciate people's thoughts on him
because the kind attitude and posting style are perhaps an adjustment from the norm.

Oh, I've been ninjaed by your other post. I'll respond to that shortly.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 12 2012 23:05 GMT
#310
+ Show Spoiler +
[QUOTE]On July 13 2012 05:46 gonzaw wrote:
austinmcc:
I'll ignore his 1st post since it has nothing worthwhile in it.
[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me[/QUOTE]
That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful.

What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning.

Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw?[/QUOTE]

Big fluffy post. Like talis said, he seems to "add" something to the "talis' plan is bad" discussion....but he doesn't add much at all.
Saying it will clog up the thread is not news, and Mattchew and others said what was wrong with the plan before.
The worst thing is he makes a great deal out of it by basing his whole post on that part.
I say basing his "whole" post because his 2nd paragraph is like the biggest pile of fluff ever. Did you really need to post so much just to ask "What do you guys think of gonzaw's scum play?" or something?
Like...your whole post could be reduced to "tali's plan is bad and I want to know how you guys catch gonzaw as scum", which means your post is SOLELY filler, and as you can see that statement alone doesn't contribute anything about the game either.
Really...that post is pretty bad.
[QUOTE]On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:
Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan
(for those who care)

marvellosity

[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:

since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others).[/QUOTE]

no

next
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:
naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)

I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.

Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.

Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!

People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people.[/QUOTE]


Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans.


austinmcc
[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me[/QUOTE]
That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful.

What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning.

Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw?[/QUOTE]

Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all.
[/QUOTE]

Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote.

Two things.
One, [quote]He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all.
[/quote]this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no."
Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others:
  • someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion
  • we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning
The first scenario is bad because a really good plan is going to end up "follow this or get lynched." Look at the pick your power games, liar game, etc. With your plan, we'd have to derail the thread from scumhunting and have a policy discussion later in the game about whether someone who didn't follow "the plan," didn't post 3 suspicions, was scummy or just wasn't suspicious of 3 people. Not posting 3 cases wouldn't be alignment-indicative, so we couldn't just lynch them. There'd have to be discussion of that, which would gunk up the thread. That's the full thought process behind that point. As to the second point I made, having players*3 cases in the thread could lead us to a situation where we were lynching based on case quantity and not case quality. Oh, 70% of people are suspicious of X, so we lynch him. Even if he was most people's third choice, and we had a few folks highly suspicious of Y. Ta da.

Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes.




I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads?[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote:
I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. [/QUOTE]


Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself.

Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this:[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:
I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. [/QUOTE]

When he speaks about DropBear later, we get:[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:
EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote:
I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this"

I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic.[/QUOTE]
He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said.

Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts.[/QUOTE]

Talking about bad posts.

That 1st part is absolutely unnecessary. He keeps talking about tali's plan and tali's accusation of him, but why?
Talis said that austin was suspicious because he didn't add much about his criticism of his plan before.....so why did he feel the need to explain everything about how bad that plan is after being called out?
Talis didn't tell him "you are suspicious because you can't find reasons why my plan is bad", so why did he spend like 4 paragraphs and a wall of text to explain so?
Even more importantly....why does it matter? How could heavily debating why tali's plan was bad (even after 90% had already stated why) be any helpful at all? It just clutters things up and makes your post look big, and of course it just makes it so you appear active and contributing when you haven't done shit until then.

The 2nd part is equally bad:
[quote]I'm more interested in Risen though[/quote]

[quote]He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. [/quote]

WTF!!??

So the player you find most interesting is one you think is town?
Also I don't get it, he seems to accuse Risen of many things, but then says he thinks he's town, but then he keeps accusing Risen. That seems very inconsistent, what does he actually think of Risen?
If he thought Risen was town...why waste his post on posting his thoughts on someone he thinks is town? Why not ignore it and post about someone he thinks is scum?

As you can see...later he never posts anything at all about who he thinks is scum, nothing. Just like S&B's accusation of austin, austin accuses Risen but never mentions him later (albeit he didn't have that many posts).
That seems fishy as fuck.


Okay, I guess this is how you read Gonzaw. Nice to see everything that's fallen out of his poking half the thread, will be looking it over after posting this.

Well, here's my response I guess.

(1)
So everyone agrees that the Talismania bits come off weird, and don't seem townie. 'Cause Talismania comes off weird to me, and I guess that made my thoughts on him and response less than clear. In the beginning, he proposes a plan expecting it to get negativity. Been clear that he expected that. Except he then engages some magical Part 2, in which he wants to get information from how people shat on it. Really, I still don't like this second stage. Because you end up with is "Here are 7 people that didn't like the plan, and here's how some of them didn't like it in non-novel ways," then you got us nothing. It's a lot of posting, and what seems like activity, for nothing. And seriously, what did we actually take away from the Plan Part 1 or Plan Part 2? I don't think we got anything out of it at all.

If I don't think Part 2 was helpful, then I'm not going to like him trying to call me out for that. Look at my response, and see that there's a difference between me (1) pointing out why the initial plan was bad and (2) pointing out why Part 2, where he says I didn't contribute anything new. I'm addressing why my critiques were different than the ones already made, and to the extent that I'm rehashing what those critiques were, it's to show that they were different.

Basically, nobody liked Part 1. Talis pulls out Part 2, calls me scummy with it. I don't think Part 2 is helpful to town, and I think he's misrepresenting my earlier post, saying that there was nothing new. That's what I'm responding to, it's a little convoluted because it's both me trying to show where he's misrepresenting what I'm saying, but also the whole time I'm writing that Part 2 of this plan isn't sitting right with me.

Was it brief? No. Was it particularly well thought-out? No. But I wouldn't say that I'm usually brief. Both in game and in obs chats I tend to be a little wordy.

(2)
As to the Risen bits, you're misreading and Marv is correct. Those were Risen's thoughts on dropbear: + Show Spoiler +
The first post keeps getting incorrectly formatted for me and I'm tired of trying to fix it. Instead, here are the three posts. Post 1
Post 2
Post 3


As Marv pointed out "He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said" was my summary of Risen's posts. You must have missed them, because my words there are exactly what Risen said about DropBear. That's the only actual read he'd given at this point, and it was summed up by my quote. I'm not posting in a confusing manner there, I'm showing how DropBear posts were confusing and you just missed them earlier.


As to the rest of the bit on Risen, I was weirded out by this post. Just straight up says he doesn't like making reads without connections. Yet that's what EVERYONE has to do D1 basically. I went back through his filter and he does lean towards connection cases, so I'm less weirded out by it but...did this not strike other people as odd? Not just it's too early, but it's too early + I don't like making reads without connections. If you're scum, it's an easy way to coast through a few days. If you're town, then what's the reasoning? I assumed the reasoning was he didn't like making reads early because he didn't trust them much. That's why my response has some feel-good crap in it about how it's fine being wrong, because I don't see the reasoning behind that statement unless it's "I don't like that my early reads are wrong."


Overall Gonzaw, you misread my stuff on Risen. I responded to your concerns about him, but reread the back half of my bad post and see if it looks better once you actually look at his posts on DropBear. That stupid quote from me was basically what he'd said. You also, and this is important, because I'm not liking Talismania right now, misread both the fallout from Talismania's plan AND my post. My post is addressing his Part 2, showing why one of the few things he's offering up as the reason he started Part 1 is him being disingenuous about what I'd added. I think you're being slightly disingenuous as well when you say .. okay, seriously. My computer won't accept end quote tags all of a sudden. That's why I keep giving URL links. Gonna have to fix this. But you say "Even more importantly....why does it matter? How could heavily debating why tali's plan was bad (even after 90% had already stated why) be any helpful at all? It just clutters things up and makes your post look big, and of course it just makes it so you appear active and contributing when you haven't done shit until then."

(1) 90% of people hadn't already stated why it was bad. Look at Talis's little summary of people who commented. It's 7 people long, and one of them is him misinterpreting your post. That's not 90% of the thread.
(2) Again, I'm not saying why the plan was bad. I'm trying to say that he's incorrect in saying I didn't add anything. I think he's really stretching what people have said to try and make it seem like Part 2 of the plan was somehow helpful, when really it's not.

##Vote: Talismania
I don't buy this two-part plan nonsense, and I don't think it's helpful at all.

Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 12 2012 23:25 GMT
#314
I'm acting like it's a two-part plan because of this

On July 13 2012 00:00 talismania wrote:
you know for all the shit that plan predictably gets at least it never fails to generate a few pages of discussion. Btw the only time people ever followed a version of it was in bastard 2, but that was because I had a gun and no one else did (and it worked then). The point of it is and always has been to see how people react to it or comply with it, not who they accuse or whatever.

He just wants to use the mention of the plan to generate discussion. Then he wants to look at those reactions. Looking at the reactions and trying to make something out of them is the Part 2 that I'm talking about. Yes, it's not a shuttle launch or anything, but it seems pretty clear from his post that he's proposing the 3-case plan as part of a second plan, to look at reactions.

Thing is, that second part is as worthless as the first. If he KNOWS that the plan predictably gets shit, then aren't the reactions bogus? Everyone is going to shit on it. There won't BE discussion and nobody's going to comply. Look at how it played out. He gets 6-7 reactions (if you don't count Gonzaw, who apparently wasn't trying to comply). That means 1/2 the rest of the thread commented. They all didn't like the plan. What are we supposed to learn from that? People who didn't like it, but weren't the first to not like it, are scum? What's the train of thought that gets you to that conclusion?
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 13 2012 00:02 GMT
#321
There's some merit there marv, looking at it further.


On July 13 2012 08:47 talismania wrote:
@austin

first as to this "two-part" business - the second part was not planned at all from the beginning. That was more of a lemonade from lemons let's see if there's anything there

On July 13 2012 00:00 talismania wrote:
you know for all the shit that plan predictably gets at least it never fails to generate a few pages of discussion. Btw the only time people ever followed a version of it was in bastard 2, but that was because I had a gun and no one else did (and it worked then). The point of it is and always has been to see how people react to it or comply with it, not who they accuse or whatever.

If it's not planned at all, then you went in only thinking that everyone would post 3 cases. Except you know that it predictably gets shit, so there's no reason to think it would work here. You say the second part was not planned at all, but also say the point is ALWAYS to see how people react, and then filter those reactions.

As to the vote, your filter is really heavily weighted towards talking about the plan, responding to criticism of the plan, and two people you think it shook out, DropBear and I. I think all of that is nonsense, and when you brush that aside your filter some roleblocker chatter and then another post or two. I want to see more, stuff unrelated to the plan.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 13 2012 00:20 GMT
#325
Marv, the most crucial bit of your case/his filter for me is this:

On July 13 2012 08:35 marvellosity wrote:
There's no scumhunting in s0lstice's filter. There are leading questions to which he never provides his own opinion


Some of his questions seem to be for basic information. Like his question to sciberbia about Keirathi, it looks like he wants information, but it's not the sort of question that he'd follow up with a response.

However, his questions towards Vivax and Keirathi are pushing something. No followup on the Keirathi bit, but I also don't see a response from Vivax, so there was nothing to respond to there.

I agree that he hasn't done any scumhunting, which is out of place for him. But when you look closer at the questions he has asked but not followed up on, I'm not finding his lack of response damning. He can't really follow the sciberbia question up, unless he didn't feel like sciberbia's answer was enough. He can't follow up the Vivax question because there was no response. Waiting for his thoughts on Gonzaw and Vivax currently.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 13 2012 00:52 GMT
#328
His posts on sciberbia clearly implies he finds it odd. Sure, he doesn't say scummy, but do you expect him to have a legitimate thought about sciberbia's failure to post a pre-packaged intro post? That seems like a silly thing to draw any kind of substantial thought or read from.

I think the Keirathi/verbosity comment is also a no-go for me. What's he supposed to tell us he thinks? That the verbosity on lurkers is indicative of trying to have filler which is indicative of scumminess? IF that thought is there, I would expect it to pop up later with a couple other thoughts in a case on Keirathi. Both Keirathi questions are also before sciberbia gives his answer to solstice, so I can also see the verbosity question as trying to feel out Keirathi.

The answer to everything is still nothing, but I make less out of that than you do, because I don't think he can really give thoughts to 1/2 those things. I'd rather see what he thinks of Vivax, Gonzaw, and the last few hours in the thread.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 13 2012 15:09 GMT
#377
On July 13 2012 23:00 gonzaw wrote:
Yeah I read that, but since he changed the setup a little bit I don't know how much the chances of there being a SK are (or if there is one 100% or something).

Meh I guessed I derped with that question.

Hmm, now that I think about it the more flips there are we can determine how many scum there are.
Like, each time a cop flips we add a "C" (or "CC", etc), if a VT flips we add "T", etc. In the end we can know (based on all the Ts,Cs, Bs and shit that flipped or are claimed) exactly how many scum/SKs are and how many of them are.

I'll try to keep tabs personally.

We can't full-on do this, one reason I was asking WBG before game started. I've tried in his last few minis, and his adjustments mean that you can't follow the normal C9++ setup.

Not gonna post something big here, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen 1-shot jailers/cops in his minis and I haven't seen multi-shot vigs. That means that the entire town side is different in his setup from C9++. The fact that he's said he adjusted some %s AND we're seeing a different makeup of roles means that we can't really game things like this.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 13 2012 17:23 GMT
#408
On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote:
Secondly, it's like he's voting me because... I'm unhelpful. What?


Yeah, that's part of it tbh. Remember?
On July 13 2012 09:02 austinmcc wrote:
As to the vote, your filter is really heavily weighted towards talking about the plan, responding to criticism of the plan, and two people you think it shook out, DropBear and I. I think all of that is nonsense, and when you brush that aside your filter some roleblocker chatter and then another post or two. I want to see more, stuff unrelated to the plan.

It's the same as one of the things I didn't like about Risen, being unhelpful but in a particular way. With you, almost all your contributions were plan-related, including your reads. With Risen, he basically just says "Don't like giving reads D1."

I don't want two players in a mini to skate through without giving legitimate reads. I was serious when I said I wanted to see more stuff, you've provided, so

##Unvote

Not helpful for me to leave my vote on you. I also don't love the company it was keeping. Still not loving things like this contradiction - + Show Spoiler +
On July 13 2012 08:47 talismania wrote:
@austin

first as to this "two-part" business - the second part was not planned at all from the beginning. That was more of a lemonade from lemons let's see if there's anything there

On July 13 2012 00:00 talismania wrote:
you know for all the shit that plan predictably gets at least it never fails to generate a few pages of discussion. Btw the only time people ever followed a version of it was in bastard 2, but that was because I had a gun and no one else did (and it worked then). The point of it is and always has been to see how people react to it or comply with it, not who they accuse or whatever.
- but that doesn't push any sort of scummy agenda, so as long as there's some activity I'm fine hopping off you.


Keirathi, to some extent, fits this same pattern. Throughout the game, he's been noting that he'd prefer to make reads based on patterns. But all this information that people want to use later, patterns, associations, only come if we have activity early and things to work off of. I agree with marv and sciberbia that his early play was very neutral. However, I get a town feeling from his response to solstice (contributing when didn't have to, decent assessment of solstice's milton case), and I'm okay with his response to gonzaw about meta - we ARE heavily discussing past games and general playstyles a lot here. If nothing else, hopefully most of this meta nonsense is being used improperly, and WBG and Chill are both fuming at us.

Continuing to look at voting options, but seriously...some increase in read validity due to associations or patterns is less valuable to town than actually having contributions from people, even if you have bad early reads.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 13 2012 17:36 GMT
#411
Risen man, if you think I'm sketchy because of my town read on you, then you're in luck. Because I'm pretty concerned that you're still doing nothing. You look less like you're trying to control yourself, part of my finding you townie, and more like you're just lurking. Seriously.

On July 13 2012 08:42 Risen wrote:
Hey so I'm driving to vegas atm and then working out once I'm there. Sorry I dropped off the map. My vote won't be staying where it is. Reading while driving is stupid but from what I've scanned austin looks sketchy as shit with his town read on me. I'll be more thorough tonight when I'm able to sot down and read. Afaik we have a good day and a half left right? Or is it just a day
Where are these thoughts? When are you going to contribute?

Nobody but me really responded to Gonzaw's slight suspicions of Risen. Solstice is of two minds - + Show Spoiler +
On July 13 2012 23:38 s0Lstice wrote:
quick ninja post while I should be working, regarding my thing with Risen

there are two conflicting ideas that I had some difficulty assignment weight to

-Risen is genuinely trying to improve his town play, and will deviate from his meta as a result
-Risen is matching a few key things in his scum meta

His desire to change his playstyle did seem genuine, especially in the post-game of SSB. I ended up assigning more weight to the second idea though because I believe it is very difficult to escape one's meta, as it is something that largely stems from the subconscious. However, the difficulty involved in ending up where I did was enough to make me want to pursue Milton primarily.

- and I'm back to being of two minds as well. This isn't just not offering reads anymore, this is doing nothing D1 but talking about yourself and how you're going to post, reading DropBear as a 5-dimensional town/mafia being, and then being entirely absent through all of yesterday's activity. Thread got crazy active yesterday afternoon, Risen's had no comment on any of it.


Oh fuck you Marv, ninjaing me. I'll go ahead and post this.
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 13 2012 17:43 GMT
#416
On July 14 2012 02:40 DropBear wrote:
I do not support a Risen lynch. He stated that he is busy and I liked some of his earlier stuff once he got past filler about smilies.

Specifics please
Fe fi fo fum.
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 13 2012 18:10 GMT
#421
On July 14 2012 03:00 DropBear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2012 02:18 Mattchew wrote:
I am going to sheep marv, on solistice most likely

Is there any particular reason for this?

Actually, I'm wondering this as well, specifically, why is marv your choice?
Fe fi fo fum.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Esports World Cup
10:00
2025 - Day 1
Cure vs ShoWTimELIVE!
EWC_Arena7337
ComeBackTV 2285
EWC_Arena_21501
TaKeTV 745
Hui .428
3DClanTV 390
CranKy Ducklings228
EnkiAlexander 201
Berry_CruncH201
UpATreeSC197
Rex174
mcanning168
Reynor149
davetesta15
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena7337
EWC_Arena_21501
Hui .428
UpATreeSC 197
Rex 174
mcanning 168
Reynor 149
StarCraft: Brood War
Barracks 998
Mini 648
Larva 610
EffOrt 542
Stork 222
Aegong 65
PianO 25
soO 24
scan(afreeca) 16
Sharp 13
[ Show more ]
Movie 11
ivOry 5
JulyZerg 5
League of Legends
Dendi1066
Counter-Strike
fl0m2246
byalli247
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor327
XaKoH 138
Other Games
ceh92283
singsing1970
syndereN207
oskar193
Trikslyr61
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 2
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 7
• FirePhoenix7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2580
• masondota21211
• WagamamaTV354
League of Legends
• Nemesis4809
• TFBlade868
Other Games
• imaqtpie919
• Shiphtur378
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
16h 6m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs TBD
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs TBD
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 16h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.