EPTI Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia - Page 3
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On July 14 2012 06:58 sciberbia wrote: @marv well it only just became apparent he would be lynched. What do we lose from his claim? lol what do we gain | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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On July 14 2012 06:52 strongandbig wrote: of course he's not here he's in australia it's like four am like there are decent reasons to vote for him but that's not one of them i want everyone to seriously consider gonzaw for lynch tomorrow. Strongandbig what do you mean by "there are decent reasons to vote for dropbear" etc. I notice from your filter that you never really talk about dropbear much except for one post where you said you wanted to think more about him way in the beginning and a later post saying you might think about consolidating on him (but he was part of a list). What, in your mind, are those reasons? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On July 14 2012 06:42 sciberbia wrote: OK guys we have to lynch today! I think there is least resistance to a dropbear lynch. I'd be willing to consolidate on dropbear. Is anyone strongly opposed to a dropbear lynch? Same question to you as to strongandbig - you have no mention of dropbear up until now. obviously it was consolidation time, but what are your thoughts on him in general? | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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On July 14 2012 13:31 DropBear wrote: Oh wow how did I get so many votes? Sorry Vivax, but you did meander around a lot. I'm not keen on posting reads at night, too many WIFOM possibilities. I don't expect to be shot anyway due to the whole nearly getting lynched thing so I'll see the survivors in the morning. Very curious to see how this turns out. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
I think you were wrong about one thing - I did comment on your setup posts in my big impressions post. The rest I kinda agree with. I honestly felt great about dropbear for the reasons I posted and because I smelled a bandwagon on me forming. Then milton and austin jumped off far too fast and I felt rather unsure of what was happening. Marv tempted me to jump off on austin but I felt like the majority would be easier on dropbear. At the same time risen took his chains off and went crazy. I liked the story he told with his case on vivax but none of that fit with my read on dropbear. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
on the setup, I just re-read the wiki and you're not right about the Ts, Ts determine scum numbers. VT numbers are just whoever is left after assigning the rest of the roles I think | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote: *snip* fixation on his plan This has already been talked about in other cases; those of austinmcc and miltonkram I believe. It's a bit weird how wrapped up he gets in proposing his plan, defending his plan, and analyzing reactions to his plan. In particular, I find his assemblage of reactions suspicious: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) + Show Spoiler + marvellosity On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzaw On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. Mattchew On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solstice On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Keirathi On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote: Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBear On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote: This is silly. This isn't going to happen and would just waste time. On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbig On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice This just feels like one of those busy-work summaries that scum do to make it look like they are contributing. It also ties in with his insisting that his plan has promoted discussion. Overall, all this talk about the plan is unproductive and slightly suspicious. well fuck the plan to be honest. It did (and somehow continues) to promote discussion. Whether that discussion has been good or not is up for debate. If I get lynched because of it I'd say not lol. consistently wishy/washy Here are some examples of some wishy/washiness. Several of these raise yellow flags for me: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 07:54 talismania wrote:I don't like milkton's last post either. There's a touch of omgus to my feelings there but I also think his argument he just made about me doesn't make much sense. Although come to think of it I dunno why he would come in out of the cold and start making a case on me does seem a bit random as scum. austin's reply to my poke at his post was rather overwrought which fits with my model of him as nervous scum but I guess that could just be the way the guy is too. solstice you said you know him - what do you make of it? + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote: solstice: I really like the case marv made on him, actually, but for some reason I don't know if I can move beyond a null on him. Like I think the first half of his filter is scummy (the part marv showed), the second half townie. Overall he is playing fairly relaxed, which is usually a town indicator as well. On the other hand he's also been fairly focused on just a couple players, which is a scum indicator. Keirathi: Well he's conditional town or conditional scum at this point. Like I think he was way too neutral in the beginning as someone else pointed out but he's also onto dropbear as I am. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 01:43 talismania wrote: actually that is a decent question. I originally ranked them that way in my head from way back when I analyzed reactions to my posts and it sort of has stuck since then. Mmm I guess thinking it over I can't think of a fantastic reason for one over the other to be honest with you. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote: @risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote: I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote: I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. especially that last one. seriously wtf.. What? Those are all my opinions I don't see what you're on about or why this is scummy or not. I don't like his approach to the lynch I feel like we were just lynching between a bunch of townies yesterday. If I had to guess, I'd say there is only 1 scum between our many lynch candidates: dropbear, vivax, miltonkram, s0Lstice, austinmcc, risen, and keirathi. So I think the mafia must have felt very at ease and not really cared too much who actually got lynched. Talis was just too calm in the hour leading up to the lynch. For example, what was he doing in between these two posts: + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote: I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit. Where has gonzaw gone? I kinda expect him to be in here cracking the whip near deadline. On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote: I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. This was a crucial 31 minutes. I don't think any of us actually had any idea who would end up being lynched at this time. But what was talis doing? Looks like he was just sitting around waiting for us to lynch a townie. In the last hour before the lynch, he really does nothing productive at all. He just says a bunch of neutralish things that don't really go anywhere. I was at work, working. And refreshing the thread. I agree with you and gonzaw though I should have done more to get dropbear lynched but the way the wagon completely left me and formed up on him threw me and I was doubting myself, especially after last game where I just tunneled HiroPro and more or less cost town the game because of it. I also have serious problems with this post just after we lynched vivax: For reference, here is the full extent of his defense on Vivax: Seriously? He says that he hopes he is "completely wrong" about vivax, but he hardly defended Vivax at all. If he really felt strongly about Vivax being town, he should have been positively shouting at people like me/marv/austin/strongandbig to put votes on dropbear instead of vivax, especially seeing as dropbear was supposedly his #1 scumread. But he was just saying useless shit like this: + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote: I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. On July 14 2012 06:54 talismania wrote: argh wtf I don't want to swtich but I will if we need too. On July 14 2012 06:57 talismania wrote: jesus risen why are you so excited? According to what talis has said, he really thought dropbear was scum, and he really thought vivax was town. I was a hell of a lot less sure than talis supposedly was, and even I was more invested in the lynch. All of his posts leading up to the lynch seriously bother me. You're actually just not interpreting my posts correctly here. I was wishing I was completely wrong about dropbear, not vivax. If vivax flipped scum it means I was completely wrong about dropbear, because dropbear was on vivax for the shittiest reasons day one. I didn't mean that I hoped I was completely wrong about vivax being town. In fact I wasn't really sure at all what vivax was. I liked Risen's case on him but I still felt stronger about dropbear and dropbear was on vivax. I said this too I'm pretty sure I dunno how you missed it when you quoted like every single post I made. Oh yeah actually you did quote it even. throws suspicion on easy targets (my townreads) He throws suspicion on a bunch of easy targets: dropbear, austin, risen, s0Lstice, milton. In fact, he threw suspicion onto just about every lynch candidate, and onto nobody that was not a lynch candidate. His reads are just going with the flow. I feel like he is just gonzaw's parrot. He's quite friendly with both gonzaw and marv (people with most thread control IMO). does not defend his townreads He never makes an against-the-grain townread. In his entire filter, I don't think he defends anybody at all. He supposedly had townreads on vivax, strongandbig, and mattchew, all 3 of which were under fire at some point, and none of which he did any defending for. This is suspicious to me. Going with the flow? I started the flow on dropbear and austin as far as I'm concerned. Also, since when did I have townreads on vivax, strongandbig, and mattchew? Strongandbig I was leaning town in the early game but I was null on vivax and null on mattchew as well. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:18 Mattchew wrote: This is case is so forced and bad. It is like he looked at the player list, and said i'll try to make a case against dropbear today so i can look townie to everyone! The first point is the timing of his response to Talis. Everyone responded to Talis's case including some LATER than Dropbear. Why is he treating Drop different from say S&B or anyone else that talked about his plan. NOT TO MENTION HE THEN GOES ON TO TALK ABOUT HIS PLAN AT LENGTH LATER IN HIS FILTER LOL. The second point is the most commonly used tactic by bad players to lynch someone they don't like. I think Gonzaw fell prey to this a little too, but I don't know if his intentions were the same. Talis is literally saying, you were mean and that could create a bad town atmosphere (which aggressive DOES NOT EQUAL scum) and I would hope both Talis and Gonzaw as town would know this. Since his vote on dropbear, he has been completely useless in the thread + Show Spoiler + (hur dur pot calling the kettle black) talismania is scum. let me get this straight. you do nothing day one except poke and prod at people. you show up near the lynch and ask when it's happening and all that but then somehow mysteriously disappear and leave your vote on sciberbia for some reason. btw you completely haven't even talked about this since it happened. you then come into the thread like nothing has happened and copy stuff everyone else has said about me and throw it together in a case. It's like you took austin's "he talks about his plan!" and dropbear's "your case is shit" and gonzaw's "you weren't around after you made a big post" and then finished it off with sciberbia's bold red text | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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On July 16 2012 02:18 Mattchew wrote: This is case is so forced and bad. It is like he looked at the player list, and said i'll try to make a case against dropbear today so i can look townie to everyone! The first point is the timing of his response to Talis. Everyone responded to Talis's case including some LATER than Dropbear. Why is he treating Drop different from say S&B or anyone else that talked about his plan. NOT TO MENTION HE THEN GOES ON TO TALK ABOUT HIS PLAN AT LENGTH LATER IN HIS FILTER LOL. The second point is the most commonly used tactic by bad players to lynch someone they don't like. I think Gonzaw fell prey to this a little too, but I don't know if his intentions were the same. Talis is literally saying, you were mean and that could create a bad town atmosphere (which aggressive DOES NOT EQUAL scum) and I would hope both Talis and Gonzaw as town would know this. Since his vote on dropbear, he has been completely useless in the thread + Show Spoiler + (hur dur pot calling the kettle black) talismania is scum. ok I guess I should actually respond to this too. 1) My case against dropbear was obviously not me looking down the playerlist. It stemmed from how unncessary his response to my plan was, and was bolstered by his different behavior early this game compared to early in the game before. 2) I wasn't "literally" saying what you say I was. He was being aggressive, he was promoting a bad atmosphere. What makes that scummy in his case was that in this game he was doing it from the get-go, where in the previous game I had with him he didn't do it until acrofales started getting on his case. This is the critical distinction I don't know why people are not recognizing it. 3) Pot calling the kettle black indeed. Actually half the people in this game were pots calling the kettle black if they're going to call me useless at the end of D1 (including gonzaw and sciberbia, who both disappeared and showed up with like half an hour to go). I'll say again that I agree I could have done more to get dropbear lynched but at the time I wasn't entirely sure of what was going on. It's not like I did nothing. I asked keirathi and marv to put their votes on him (and I'm still confused marv didn't) and I thought both sciberbia and gonzaw were going to come down on dropbear's side as well based on what they posted. It honestly wasn't until the last five minutes it became clear it was vivax. | ||
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talismania
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On July 16 2012 03:08 DropBear wrote: Going back to look at yesterday's finaly votecount, these are a couple of things that interest me. Mattchew and Solstice stayed out of the lynch entirely. Their votes were throwaways. Solstice has been very quiet and is suspect. Firstly this. This is very very strange. Miltonkram was certainly solstice's big scum read early on, yet he was dropped for Risen. But you call out Vivax for this? Secondly, solstice doesn't really perk up until there is a case against him. Look through his filter, he posts nothing remotely controversial before this. Lastly, why indeed did he vote for Risen? In doing this he directly avoided taking a side in the lynch and therefore responsibility, so why Risen? There are only two reasons given. a)Risen posted that it was too early for gonzaw to have reads on the third page of the game proper. Damn straight this is too early to have reads. This is the only time he does this at all. This scum meta solstice speaks of doesn't match up. b) B is tied to A. Firstly, he was actually one of the first to call me out. So that didn't happen. I can't actually find where he defended Mattchew anywhere in his filter beyond this post, which isn't defending anyone more attacking gonzaw for having strong reads so early. So basically the grave reasoning behind solstice staying out of the lynch were factually incorrect and/or very very weak. For hiding from controversy i.e. the lynch for very dodgy reasoning, his low activity before being on the back foot and calling out Vivax despite doing exactly the same thing himself, I will ##Vote s0Lstice Mattchew was completely fucking useless day 1. There is so much crap in his filter I don't know how I didn't see it earlier. His vote on sciberbia was literally sheeping marv. He has now however just ninja'd with a case on tali that actually seems reasonable, regardless of it's defence of me. This is a very sudden change of tone from his previous stuff and I don't know what to make of it. I would have said very strong FoS up until this. Hmm this is not what I expected you to do actually. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On July 16 2012 04:41 Risen wrote: I have no read on you, but I don't like this backtrack :/ wouldn't call it a backtrack yet. I just thought he would pile on me. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On July 16 2012 04:40 Risen wrote: I'm super sad I supported mattchew as town earlier. He's been playing pretty much just like he did as scum in his last game with me, that is, being hella lurky and trying to fly under the radar. Also, I don't know how to feel about the tali or DropBear case. Marv is confirmed towny and he really disliked tali (I think, maybe it was DB but I remember it being tali I just woke up and will go through the filters). I literally have nothing so I might just end up going with what marv wanted. I'm so unconfident in myself now it's kind of funny rofl (as opposed to my usualy self). I still don't like the people who defended vivax strongly, though. I just can't wrap my head around him being a townie... I'm bad, and I should feel bad :< marv didn't like dropbear. I dunno how he felt about me. | ||
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talismania
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On July 16 2012 04:58 sciberbia wrote: Just woke up. I'm a little disappointed that my case for talis hasn't received more support. His defense was reasonable, but I still feel pretty strongly that he is scum. @gonzaw What do you think of talis right now? Would you be happy lynching him today? so... what still makes you think I'm scum? | ||
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