• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:43
CEST 19:43
KST 02:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event5Serral wins EWC 202543Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9
Community News
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 194Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4
StarCraft 2
General
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Rogue Talks: "Koreans could dominate again" uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays RSL Season 2 Qualifier Links and Dates
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
StarCon Philadelphia ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM 2025 Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 696 users

Bureaucracy Mafia! - Page 87

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 85 86 87 88 89 226 Next
VisceraEyes
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States21170 Posts
July 19 2012 16:25 GMT
#1721
Yes that post never came. After composing some of it and it being built up so by Probulous, I reread it and realized that most of it was stuff that had been mentioned or was drawing connections between people that didn't happen.

So yeah, everyone can exhale - that post of "interesting things on reread" isn't coming. My reads post is gonna have to suffice. WAH WAH WAAAAAAH.
if I had to describe his playstyle, it'd be a coked up rabbit with the attention of a goldfish injecting caffeine into himself directly through an IV drip. it's like a reel of random animated shorts where things just blow up randomly
supersoft
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany3729 Posts
July 19 2012 16:28 GMT
#1722
hey palmar, is there a particular reason for this outburst of activity?
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 19 2012 16:28 GMT
#1723
VE what do you make of MZ's case on rastaban, and does it alter your view of MZ at all?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25552 Posts
July 19 2012 16:30 GMT
#1724
On July 20 2012 01:28 supersoft wrote:
hey palmar, is there a particular reason for this outburst of activity?


As long as he's defending me I see no problem with it. It's not like there's anything else to do today but provide reads-- we're lynching Kurumi anyways.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Mattchew
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States5684 Posts
July 19 2012 16:32 GMT
#1725
On July 20 2012 01:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yes that post never came. After composing some of it and it being built up so by Probulous, I reread it and realized that most of it was stuff that had been mentioned or was drawing connections between people that didn't happen.

So yeah, everyone can exhale - that post of "interesting things on reread" isn't coming. My reads post is gonna have to suffice. WAH WAH WAAAAAAH.

Cool your scum too.... this is not that hard... woulda covered your tracks better without the wah wah waaaaaah

For those keeping score at home

Scum =
Foolishness
Kurumi
VE
Rastaban
Katina
MZ

maybe chez?


There is always tomorrow nshs.seal.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25552 Posts
July 19 2012 16:37 GMT
#1726
I don't like risk.nuke. I think part of it is his disgusting reaver portrait, but check it out:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=76576

His initial comments actually aren't that bad, viewed on their own-- he doesn't like chaos or chezinu, he calls out the bad day 1 reads thing, and he argues about about RL. But how much as he really added since that initial outburst of early game chatter?

Well, He drops a vote on Kurumi with some minimal discussion, since Kurumi is basically scum D1. He explains his vote.

And then... nothing. He drops a vote on austinmcc later as we get closer to the lynch deadline.

That's everything Risk.Nuke has done.




Now, I could imagine having a relatively quiet first half of D1, or maybe entire D1. But we're in D2 now, and after a whole night and nearly a third of D2, RN is unbelievably quiet. Why is that? It's not because he thinks there's nothing to talk about, I can assure you that-- he made a pretty long response to one of the opening posts when there was less activity: (link)

Risk.Nuke is alarmingly inactive-- he's posted no analysis, no reads, nothing. Since the end of D1 he's made two posts:
On July 19 2012 01:36 risk.nuke wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2012 01:19 syllogism wrote:
I can't believe this game uses extended majority lynch. How was that a good idea

Don't blame the system when the fault lies in a dumb unorganized town.

On July 19 2012 21:38 risk.nuke wrote:
We need to kill kurumi. For tomorrow I feel katina will bleed red. Will elaborate when I feel like it.


The first one is worthless, and the second one is (in the first half) self evident and (in the second half) completely left hanging.

What are you doing, risk.nuke?

why so unhelpful? Why so lurk? why so scum?
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
VisceraEyes
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States21170 Posts
July 19 2012 16:57 GMT
#1727
MZ was my weakest read anywaqy. I haven't gone to look at rastaban and intend look into the case further when I get a chance. Right now I'm on limited time so I just popped in to say "Hey, that post Prob keeps talking about isn't coming" and to see what Palmar had to say this morning.

In short, no...the fact that MZ put forth a case does not change my read on him. The quality/relevance of his case might, but the fact alone does not.
if I had to describe his playstyle, it'd be a coked up rabbit with the attention of a goldfish injecting caffeine into himself directly through an IV drip. it's like a reel of random animated shorts where things just blow up randomly
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 19 2012 16:59 GMT
#1728
obviously the fact alone does not. i look forward to hearing back from you later then
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
austinmcc
Profile Joined October 2010
United States6737 Posts
July 19 2012 17:04 GMT
#1729
On July 20 2012 01:28 marvellosity wrote:
VE what do you make of MZ's case on rastaban, and does it alter your view of MZ at all?

This should go to Mattchew as well. MZ actually helping, or trying to look like he's helping?
Fe fi fo fum.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 19 2012 17:11 GMT
#1730
On July 20 2012 02:04 austinmcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 01:28 marvellosity wrote:
VE what do you make of MZ's case on rastaban, and does it alter your view of MZ at all?

This should go to Mattchew as well. MZ actually helping, or trying to look like he's helping?


stop asking questions until you decide to be helpful yourself
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
risk.nuke
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden2825 Posts
July 19 2012 17:37 GMT
#1731
On July 20 2012 01:37 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't like risk.nuke. I think part of it is his disgusting reaver portrait, but check it out:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=76576

His initial comments actually aren't that bad, viewed on their own-- he doesn't like chaos or chezinu, he calls out the bad day 1 reads thing, and he argues about about RL. But how much as he really added since that initial outburst of early game chatter?

Well, He drops a vote on Kurumi with some minimal discussion, since Kurumi is basically scum D1. He explains his vote.

And then... nothing. He drops a vote on austinmcc later as we get closer to the lynch deadline.

That's everything Risk.Nuke has done.




Now, I could imagine having a relatively quiet first half of D1, or maybe entire D1. But we're in D2 now, and after a whole night and nearly a third of D2, RN is unbelievably quiet. Why is that? It's not because he thinks there's nothing to talk about, I can assure you that-- he made a pretty long response to one of the opening posts when there was less activity: (link)

Risk.Nuke is alarmingly inactive-- he's posted no analysis, no reads, nothing. Since the end of D1 he's made two posts:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2012 01:36 risk.nuke wrote:
On July 19 2012 01:19 syllogism wrote:
I can't believe this game uses extended majority lynch. How was that a good idea

Don't blame the system when the fault lies in a dumb unorganized town.

Show nested quote +
On July 19 2012 21:38 risk.nuke wrote:
We need to kill kurumi. For tomorrow I feel katina will bleed red. Will elaborate when I feel like it.


The first one is worthless, and the second one is (in the first half) self evident and (in the second half) completely left hanging.

What are you doing, risk.nuke?

why so unhelpful? Why so lurk? why so scum?

lol, I can't believe you believe in your post. But back to that in a second.

Well, why I'm doing jack shit right now. I know kurumi is scum and thanks to RoL beeing dumb he's still alive. And that is like having a pointy rock in my shoe. It's hard to motivate myself to focus on anyone else before it's gone.
And it may be day 2 but we haven't had a lynch yet. So it's only day 2 by name. We do not have a lynch to look at for information.

Your case reeks of hints that scream you don't believe I am scum so I'm very suspicious of why you've accused me.
Things in your post that make me doubt you believe in your case.
I don't like risk.nuke. I think part of it is his disgusting reaver portrait, but check it out:

You're beeing unserious when you're starting up your post.

You've left out that the reason I didn't do much chatting during the second half of day 1 was because I was working and therefor "unavailable" the entire day. Also If you look at my latest games you will see that I don't talk much during nights either. Anyway you keep ignoring that and just tries to hammer down a "this is all he's done under all this time". It's nice to conveniently leave out parts. I find that very odd and suspicious, especially since this is your main point against me.

Most importantly what I don't like is you never say you think I'm scum exept for in the very end where you very subtly include it in a nice tripple liner
why so unhelpful? Why so lurk? why so scum?
That's very weird because if you had never called me scum in the entire post it would had been so obvious scumpost where you try to make other people push townies for you. But you did accuse me of beeing scum but why is the scumaccusation so small and hidden?
This just feels like an attempt to divert towns attention from kurumi (who's near confirmed scum). My greatest fear is that people will second guess themselves on kurumi and botch his lynch again.

Now BH you got me excited. I hope I get a response from you soon why you've chosen to push an untrue case on me when there are plenty of cases out there who doesn't need to be twisted bent or seen from a false perspective. Is it because you're worried those actually are scum and you don't want to push real scum?
Neo.G Soulkey, Best, firebathero. // http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
Foolishness *
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3044 Posts
July 19 2012 17:38 GMT
#1732
Anyone saying that my case on Bill Murray is too much based on meta did not read through it. It is clear from his fitler that he has not brought anything new to the table nor contributed anything. As I said his longest post was his little spiel about me but that only came after many others (sandroba, bugs, etc) laid out those arguments in full. He just repeated what others were saying. You can see from his past games that this matches up with his mafia play.

Bill Murray hasn't done anything this game. He's neither contributed nor done anything helpful. His attitude this game is very consistent with his mafia play.

Also I already explained my actions this game. If you want to sit there and call me mafia than go crazy, but don't expect me to respond unless you actually bring up a case.


And Probulous, you are seriously misguided if you are thinking about whether someone is an executive or not. Hypothetical scenario. Let's say we have a confirmed sane DT check someone and get back the result of mafia. How are you going to be able to tell whether that person is an executive or a minion? You can't. It's a waste of time to think about it. A mafia is a mafia.
geript: "Foolishness's cases are persuasive and reasonable but leave you feeling dirty afterwards. Kinda like a whore." ---- Manager of the TL Mafia forum, come play!
Katina
Profile Joined February 2012
United States454 Posts
July 19 2012 17:40 GMT
#1733
Mattchew is Mafia. After catching up on the thread this morning he is still doing the exact same thing which is nothing.
He is still derping along and throwing at the random "Katina is scum, Let's kill her!!" post. Mattchew is making no real contribution to the thread.

Same goes for BM, he hasn't done any work and has been lacking in the thread. What you except out of BM has not been present. Except for some bad attempts to troll to get the pressure off of him a bit.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25552 Posts
July 19 2012 17:40 GMT
#1734
That's not stopping anyone else from contributing, Risk.Nuke. It didn't stop be from finding you.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25552 Posts
July 19 2012 17:41 GMT
#1735
In any case, feel free to do something, anything, to make any sort of case, or contribute to town in any meaningful way whatsoever. I breathlessly await the grand arrival of the pro-town Risk.Nuke-- he is still absent.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
supersoft
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany3729 Posts
July 19 2012 17:43 GMT
#1736
On July 20 2012 02:38 Foolishness wrote:
Anyone saying that my case on Bill Murray is too much based on meta did not read through it. It is clear from his fitler that he has not brought anything new to the table nor contributed anything. As I said his longest post was his little spiel about me but that only came after many others (sandroba, bugs, etc) laid out those arguments in full. He just repeated what others were saying. You can see from his past games that this matches up with his mafia play.

Bill Murray hasn't done anything this game. He's neither contributed nor done anything helpful. His attitude this game is very consistent with his mafia play.

Also I already explained my actions this game. If you want to sit there and call me mafia than go crazy, but don't expect me to respond unless you actually bring up a case.


And Probulous, you are seriously misguided if you are thinking about whether someone is an executive or not. Hypothetical scenario. Let's say we have a confirmed sane DT check someone and get back the result of mafia. How are you going to be able to tell whether that person is an executive or a minion? You can't. It's a waste of time to think about it. A mafia is a mafia.


you read his claim?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 19 2012 17:48 GMT
#1737
On July 20 2012 02:40 Katina wrote:
Mattchew is Mafia. After catching up on the thread this morning he is still doing the exact same thing which is nothing.
He is still derping along and throwing at the random "Katina is scum, Let's kill her!!" post. Mattchew is making no real contribution to the thread.

Same goes for BM, he hasn't done any work and has been lacking in the thread. What you except out of BM has not been present. Except for some bad attempts to troll to get the pressure off of him a bit.

You keep agreeing with Foolishness, who you, presumably, now believe is 100% mafia. Doesn't that concern you at all? Also, if Foolishness is mafia, don't you think you should focus a bit more attention ensuring that he gets lynched as he clearly presents a bigger threat than someone like BM? No matter how many times I push this point you keep ignoring him.
Foolishness *
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3044 Posts
July 19 2012 17:55 GMT
#1738
On July 20 2012 02:43 supersoft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 02:38 Foolishness wrote:
Anyone saying that my case on Bill Murray is too much based on meta did not read through it. It is clear from his fitler that he has not brought anything new to the table nor contributed anything. As I said his longest post was his little spiel about me but that only came after many others (sandroba, bugs, etc) laid out those arguments in full. He just repeated what others were saying. You can see from his past games that this matches up with his mafia play.

Bill Murray hasn't done anything this game. He's neither contributed nor done anything helpful. His attitude this game is very consistent with his mafia play.

Also I already explained my actions this game. If you want to sit there and call me mafia than go crazy, but don't expect me to respond unless you actually bring up a case.


And Probulous, you are seriously misguided if you are thinking about whether someone is an executive or not. Hypothetical scenario. Let's say we have a confirmed sane DT check someone and get back the result of mafia. How are you going to be able to tell whether that person is an executive or a minion? You can't. It's a waste of time to think about it. A mafia is a mafia.


you read his claim?

Yes. That doesn't change anything I've said.
geript: "Foolishness's cases are persuasive and reasonable but leave you feeling dirty afterwards. Kinda like a whore." ---- Manager of the TL Mafia forum, come play!
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 19 2012 17:57 GMT
#1739
On July 20 2012 02:38 Foolishness wrote:
Also I already explained my actions this game. If you want to sit there and call me mafia than go crazy, but don't expect me to respond unless you actually bring up a case.


yeah, instead of actually changing your vote as promised, you went and played LoL.

On July 19 2012 02:33 Foolishness wrote:
To VE: I always post a list of my reads right before night ends.



You did not do this nor have you explained not doing it.

You are totally uninvested this game, and further to this, you are simply a liar.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
supersoft
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany3729 Posts
July 19 2012 17:58 GMT
#1740
On July 20 2012 02:55 Foolishness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 02:43 supersoft wrote:
On July 20 2012 02:38 Foolishness wrote:
Anyone saying that my case on Bill Murray is too much based on meta did not read through it. It is clear from his fitler that he has not brought anything new to the table nor contributed anything. As I said his longest post was his little spiel about me but that only came after many others (sandroba, bugs, etc) laid out those arguments in full. He just repeated what others were saying. You can see from his past games that this matches up with his mafia play.

Bill Murray hasn't done anything this game. He's neither contributed nor done anything helpful. His attitude this game is very consistent with his mafia play.

Also I already explained my actions this game. If you want to sit there and call me mafia than go crazy, but don't expect me to respond unless you actually bring up a case.


And Probulous, you are seriously misguided if you are thinking about whether someone is an executive or not. Hypothetical scenario. Let's say we have a confirmed sane DT check someone and get back the result of mafia. How are you going to be able to tell whether that person is an executive or a minion? You can't. It's a waste of time to think about it. A mafia is a mafia.


you read his claim?

Yes. That doesn't change anything I've said.


i'd rather say it supports your read...
Prev 1 85 86 87 88 89 226 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
CSO Cup
16:00
#84
CSOeSports13
iHatsuTV 10
Liquipedia
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
15:00
Group Stage Day 2
uThermal912
WardiTV853
SteadfastSC372
IndyStarCraft 202
LamboSC2113
goblin7
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
uThermal 912
SteadfastSC 372
IndyStarCraft 202
LamboSC2 113
BRAT_OK 68
ProTech24
MindelVK 23
goblin 7
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 18418
Calm 4069
Rain 2827
Horang2 1168
EffOrt 803
Artosis 527
BeSt 389
ggaemo 358
Barracks 119
hero 111
[ Show more ]
JYJ57
Killer 54
Rock 48
Dewaltoss 35
yabsab 23
JulyZerg 16
Shine 13
IntoTheRainbow 10
SilentControl 10
Terrorterran 7
Stormgate
B2W.Neo489
BeoMulf137
Dota 2
Gorgc6184
qojqva2280
Dendi688
Counter-Strike
fl0m2654
flusha138
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu532
Khaldor426
Other Games
Hui .330
Lowko242
KnowMe153
Fuzer 90
Trikslyr40
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick826
StarCraft 2
angryscii 13
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 25
• davetesta10
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 11
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV629
• Ler76
League of Legends
• Jankos1265
Counter-Strike
• Nemesis1991
Other Games
• imaqtpie935
• Shiphtur253
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
16h 17m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
21h 17m
Wardi Open
1d 17h
RotterdaM Event
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
Online Event
6 days
SC Evo League
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.