| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 10:01 marvellosity wrote: As much as any particular question is surprising I guess? ROFL, you should be a politician man. You know what I mean when I ask that question. I thik you responded rashly without taking the time to think about your answer. Is this true? | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 10:16 marvellosity wrote: There's not a lot else I can say on the matter by this stage. If that's really enough to lynch me then whatever. Yeah VE is right. The problem I have is that I can't really add anything to what I have said already and that doesn't seem to be enough. I mean I can explain it in a different way but the facts are the same and they weren't enough yesterday and no-one seems to be changing their mind today. Do you guys want me to complete this monster or should I give up for now and look elsewhere? VE, prpl, your thoughts on this. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
| ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
| ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
 Btw, WHERE THE FUCK IS EVERYONE???? | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
| ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
marvellosity Marvel started this game in an open manner by offering to answer any question asked of him but he was suprised by Mattchew's question and responded rashly. This in itself is not a scum tell, an off balance townie could do the same. But his subsequent insistence on not responding is damning in my eyes. + Show Spoiler [Marvs initial reaction] + On June 22 2012 07:19 marvellosity wrote: well, that part of the figuring out bit I thought I'd leave to you. On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote: The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. On June 22 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote: lol, ok dear. If people could look for themselves, then maybe just one person in the whole of LV and the obsQT might have had a tingling suspicion, no? No. On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit This is the key quote and one I keep coming back to. He has turned his initial confused response into a positive proof he is town. Why? This was very early day 1, VE had labelled him scum but VE always does this early and changes his position regularly. The simplest way to clear your name would be actually answer the question. Instead he uses the fact that he is acting scummy to try and clear his name, thus avoiding the work. Again, I can see a flustered scum here not sure how to respond so early in the game to this kind of pressure. So he decides to try and use that pressure to clear his name rather than doing the hard work and answer the question. It isn't easy playing a different meta than you are used to so if he could deflect the question he could continue to play his normal game. I am not marvellosity so I can't say whether he would respond the same way if he were scum or if he were scum, simply because I think he was caught off guard. All I can do is compare him to what I would expect a town or scum would do. I would expect a townie to say something like "Shit that's a hard question, give me some time to think about it" if he was thrown off balance. + Show Spoiler [My first response to Marv] + On June 22 2012 08:40 Probulous wrote: Fair enough, I forgot who I was asking. You did back off Marv pretty quickly though. Why? I mean this is terrible and you pointed it out He still hasn't responded adequately. He is around note But is he isn't bothering to actually answer Mattchew's question. So yeah, why the let up? Marv, I want that alimony! On June 22 2012 08:44 marvellosity wrote: Probey, you'll have to get in touch with my lawyer. And I have at least partly answered the question, you're just not on the ball enough to have worked it out yet. By now he is adamant that he won't respond to the question. It has not become a case of being flustered but a concious decision. When I join in the questioning, he dismisses me. He fobs me off with a "go read the thread" response. This attitude of not wanting to contribute and making others do the work is scummy. It's sarcastic and designed to rile me up. He did a similar thing to VE. Why would you respond in this manner if you were town? The tone is designed to piss people off. Remember marvel has chosen to act this way. He believes that by playing a scummy game he can appear town. That is his whole exlpanation at this point, so if he is scum it makes sense to piss people off. He can create confusion and a massive shitfest which ruins day 1. He clearly doesn't think he will get lynched, he say so later. VE, picks up on the tone issue in his next post. + Show Spoiler [VE] + On June 22 2012 08:51 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah let's lynch marv. Prob you down? ##Vote: marvellosity Hubris does NOT become you sir. and I point out the ridiculousness of not answering the question + Show Spoiler [Probulous] + On June 22 2012 08:54 Probulous wrote: Why are you so cryptic? It's your job to prove you're town so you should want to provide information to us. ##Vote marvellosity This time it's personal @Mattchew, you have nothing to say  By now Marv's play is clear, refuse to answer clearly and then use his scummy play as an excuse. He has already gained two votes which would normally force a townie to actually contribute but he doesn't. Why? because this is his plan. He wants to look scummy and then go "hey look I always look scummy as town". On June 22 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote: it's not cryptic, it's blindingly fucking obvious. jesus christ Why the indignation here? Why is he is pissed off at both VE and myself for not realising that he is town because he looks like scum. It is a ridiculous premise so of course we want further explanantion. Then VE comes up with the defensive nature of marvel's posting which marvel used as his defense. the way I read this, VE is simply stating that Marv is using his defensive posting as an excuse for palying scummy. + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? On June 22 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote: I'm supposed to talk about someone else in my defence? And in the nested quote it states quite clearly there weren't any accusations... that's twice this game now you've misrepresented something, wilfully or not. i'm watching you Whether there are accusations or not is irrelevant. The point is you were using your defensive behaviour as a way to prove you're town. We cannot know this is true, there is no way of verifying it. Just because you were defensive in your last townie game does not mean if you are defensive here you are townie. ESPECIALLY if you use that as your defense. Again, surely a townie would just answer the original question clearly and transparently at this point. I mean both VE and myself were "obviously mistaken", but you didn't bother to clear that up did you? No the confusion was good, it was serving its purpose. + Show Spoiler [back and forth] + On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote: This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. On June 22 2012 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Marv, I find myself to be terribly entertaining, so you're going to have to surround that statement with some sort of context if you want me to understand what you mean. Now, my argument isn't about you defending yourself for the same reason. My argument is that you're defending yourself in the same fashion...using meta. You're encouraging everyone to leave the thread and go read other games. Why? On June 22 2012 09:46 marvellosity wrote: one was a defence, one was not. do you see yet? i didn't encourage people to leave the thread to read other games. i said i never said anything scummy in LV and I pointed out explicitly the scummy thing I was pressured for in magic. the whole original question was on meta, and now you're pushing me for defending on meta? really? I think VE got sidetracked here. Marv using meta is not a problem. As he states, the question was about meta. The point is that stating that "when you look scummy you are town" is not a useful use of meta. It doesn't answer the question and allows you to just refuse to answer. A useful meta point would be "when I am scum I tend to ..." not when I am scum I look like town. Anyway, I want you to note that he has now created a case against VE based on him being misrepresented twice. This will come up later. This is a pretty good post from VE which is clearer than his previous ones. On June 22 2012 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote: I "pretend" that I went and didn't find anything? I went and looked and I said EXACTLY what I found. I don't care about you wanting to shoot NT, nothing similar has happened this game to compare it to. When I went back, I found what I was looking for - you acting like a townie. You haven't done that this game. When I went and looked at your scum game, I found something there too - you defending yourself needlessly with meta. You HAVE done that this game. These aren't misrepresentations, they're observations I'm making. If you don't like it, STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO GO READ YOUR PREVIOUS GAMES. The point being, answer the original question clearly and transparently if you don't want people to misunderstand your reply. At this point it is clear that marv has achieved a few things. He has the thread focused on him, he looks scummy but is using this to try and prove he is town, he has created some suspicion on VE. So I call him out on it. On June 22 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: Which is a nothing answer. I guess that is fair enough at this point. This next post is another key one.I think he's pushing me dodgily. Haven't worked out if it's scummy or VE just being VE yet. On June 22 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: I've quite clearly stated I am not, stop it. The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum. On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin. So now the plan becomes clear. He was caught off guard early and made a response he would not normally make as either town or scum, but here he is saying the he would avoid it like the plague is he were mafia. But apparently not as town? It makes less sense from a town perspective to not answer a straight up question than it does from a mafia point of view. Mafia get away with causing a shitstorm knowing they are unlikely to be lynched. Why? Because he can fall back on his meta showing that he is careful as mafia. On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin. On June 22 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote: See, the funny part is that you could ask yourself the same question. Why would you put yourself in this situation as town? It doesn't make any fucking sense. On June 22 2012 09:56 marvellosity wrote: a) because i'm unafraid b) because i get information from who and how i'm pushed Here we have the reveal that this was all a townie plan by Marvel to gain information on those pushing him. Really, well what has he gained so far? That VE may or may not be scum...That's it. In the process he has caused the whole thread to be entirely focused on him. Worse he doesn't regret it. He thinks it is a good idea. At this point we have had no other cases presented, no other scumhunting. Nothing. How is that a positive for town? Anyway I outline my position here + Show Spoiler [probulous position] + On June 22 2012 09:58 Probulous wrote: See here is what I don't understand.
Why haven't you answered the original question? You admitted it's a good question, you claim VE is misrepresenting you but isn't scum so surely the best way to clear your name would be to outline exactly what you intended when you briefly referenced those games. I mean you seem to be saying that VE is mistaken but don't bother to actually take the time to thorughly correct the mistake. Why? Because you don't want to answer the question. Townies want to provide data and clarity and you just wanted to move onto other things. Has Matt just left the thread then? >< On June 22 2012 10:17 Probulous wrote: 1) You proactively ask people to question you so you can prove your alignment. 2) Then you dilberately obfuscate and avoid answering the question 3)You explain that this was not a mistake but instead part of an elaborate plan to do something no scum would do and so therefore prove you are town If you are town, you are saying that you deliberately avoided answering Mattchew to cause a shitstorm to prove you're town? You don't say it was a mistake, or a joke but rather a calculated plan. You give yourself too little credit Marv. I think you're scum who tried to joke off a difficult question and didn't expect people to latch onto it. Now you are backpedalling as fast as you can. To which I get this enlightening response On June 22 2012 10:19 marvellosity wrote: wrong way of looking at it Prob if I were scum I'd have thought more before answering matt's question. even if this conversation has been quite interesting WHY? Better yet why would you not do this as town. Especially after everyone starting piling onto you. Saying you are careful as scum is not a perfect defense that excuses you from participating. Note up till now he has provided nothing else. He hasn't pushed a case or done anything of value except defend himself with I am smart as scum so I wouldn't do that. I give you the perfect marvel plan. Play badly and then claim you have perfect scum play so you cannot be scum. TLDR: marvel was caught off guard by Mattchew's question and chose to throw it back to the thread. This in itself could be a town response but when he told us that his scummy behaviour made him town, he hit on a plan to ensure he wasn't lynched. He knew his initial response was inadequate but chose to use his scummy response as a tool to cause confusion and shit up the thread. By never taking the multiples chances he had, to clarify his original position, he ensured that the mess continued for as long as possible. Whenever VE or I pushed him to contribute he could just reply with his meta defense that he cannot be scum because scum would never do this. If we believe that, then we would never lynch anyone. If he had just stated the truth, that he responded rashly and would take the time to provide a proper answer, I would have dropped this case. But his insistence that it takes up as much of Day 1 as possible makes me believe he is mafia. ##Vote marvellosity | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
| ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
If you have any questions about that post, let me know because no-one has commented on it. @VE, that is my only concern as well. The only motivation I can find is that it causes mayhem and he clearly felt he was never going to get lynched, so why not make the entire first day about him? It gives cover to other scum and I have no doubt that a scum marv would have the balls to pull it off (bad image I know). I also want to know why people are happy voting for him now and not yesterday. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 15:07 VisceraEyes wrote: If marv flips SK, it's going to open a whole new can of worms...because scum are able to scumhunt when there's an SK involved in the game - so that means that anyone who's been on marvel's case since early on gets, literally, zero town-cred from marvel's flip. Especially myself. One lynch at a time my good friend. If he is a SK then we have immediately halved night KP. This is good, we cannot guarantee that the SK will shoot scum (last night is a clear example of that). Plus we eliminate one way of us losing. I don't care if people don't give me credit for him flipping SK. I'll continue to scum hunt and find the other scum. Assuming someone is scum because they found the SK is completely nuts. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
Anyway, I will take a closer look and then post my thoughts on Rastaban. He just seems like a confused newb to me but maybe there is something more sinister. He said some stuff that seemed quite townie actually. Let me find it. On June 24 2012 02:51 rastaban wrote: I already posted my thoughts on Zentor, Zephirdd is Pretty likely town, when he asked about by previous games he followed up by looking into the case and linked my previous case so others could review as well, that is a pretty town aligned action in my opinion and his last comment isn't something scum would say. It invites attention, but a townie just wants to find the truth and not be played. I liken it to my statement last game where I jokingly said that ace had rigged the game so that all lurkers were scum. It was half a joke but also out there to get people to think in that direction if things started getting fishy. Why scum would say that about a possible alternative lynch candidate is beyond me. It is a geniune point in Zephirdd's favour which no-one else had brought up. Now we know he flipped green and I doubt mafia shot Zephirdd, so if rastaban is mafia he was defending a townie with new data for no reason. It is small but it put him in the townie basket for me. Plus whilst crazy he has been pretty open about his thoughts. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 15:26 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, slOosh wasn't really emanating blue by any means. On June 23 2012 07:05 slOosh wrote: Hrrmph. Alright I'll just lay out my suspicions. I wanted to hit two birds with one stone by getting reads on other people via their opinions on the matter (since I have too many null reads). Dear townspeople: step it up. If you are blue then scum know it and will snipe you, and we think you are scum and mislynch you. That's the only explanation I can think of at the appalling lack of effort by most of town right now. It's small but I picked up on it so scum could too. Why mention blues specifically here? It shows he was thinking about power roles which makes more sense if he was one. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 15:50 xsksc wrote: My read on rasta is far stronger than my read on marv, here's my first thoughts on marv after I replaced in - I mean, what does he gain from the whole exchange, as a scum player? Some WIFOM, and he avoids a rather simple question that I'm sure he was quite capable of answering. What does he gain from it as town - well, not a lot...he used some of VE's play there in his case, the rest just seemed to shit up the thread and bring him lots of negative attention. I could buy SK, perhaps, as his actions don't make sense from either perspective, but I'm not nearly close enough to a scumread on him to warrant a vote. I'm more confident on my rastaman read + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2012 18:21 xsksc wrote: Well, first of all - since my predecessor went AWOL and I don't know what his thought process was, I might as well answer this instead. I'll try to keep this short - I don't like rastaban's play on day 1. His case on risk was pure filler, and this early post definitely stood out to me. I don't like this at all. His opinion is extremely safe - he puts himself in a position where he could safely vote for Marv in the future, but he doesn't actually commit to anything. He doesn't really tell us anything, he just says marv COULD be scum. He also says he feels there's been "too much" discussion on the subject of Marv, but then he goes on to ask Marv some more questions, and he doesn't try to raise another subject, which completely contradicts what he just said. What I find more concerning though, is his vote switch to MrZ. Here he says MrZ is null, and wants to give him more time. So he continues to push his #1 scum-read, fair enough. This is his post between that and his vote-switch. So MrZ has gone from being null to LYNCH HIM, because he changed his mind (changing your mind =/= scum), and the absurd theory that he's scum or a blue because he didn't /out. If he's so sure about his scum-read on risk, he should ABSOLUTELY push it, instead of taking the easy out on MrZ. For reference, I think this is why MrZ changed his mind. + Show Spoiler + On June 23 2012 11:20 Zephirdd wrote: Holy shit. Look at pages 16 and 17. I just solved this game. VE, marv are both scum bussing the F* out of each other. When was the last time this happened? I remember someone saying it was an "OP strategy". Wasn't it Toad/VE doing it? I don't quite remember. Someone said LI, is that it? Either way, if one of them flips scum, I'm sure as hell attacking the other. I thought the initial "attacks" were terrible for both parties, but at this point this all feels fabricated to me. TLDR I don't like Rastaman's day 1 play, I think it's downright scummy. Have you read my marv case? | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 15:57 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, that looks more like claiming VT obliquely than a blue-slip...but I see what you're saying. At any rate, I really don't think rastaban is scum and slOosh was pushing rastaban for lynch. What do you make of that? He was pushing Snarfs and me too, I don't see your point? | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
No, not really but it is lacking in motivation. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 25 2012 18:21 xsksc wrote: His case on risk was pure filler, and this early post definitely stood out to me. I don't like this at all. His opinion is extremely safe - he puts himself in a position where he could safely vote for Marv in the future, but he doesn't actually commit to anything. He doesn't really tell us anything, he just says marv COULD be scum. I actually don't mind his case on Risk. It is on someone that people were ignoring and shows willingness to add to the information pool. Anyway playing safe early on Day 1 is not unreasonable. slOosh took exactly the same position and was blue so it is hardly alignment indicative. He also says he feels there's been "too much" discussion on the subject of Marv, but then he goes on to ask Marv some more questions, and he doesn't try to raise another subject, which completely contradicts what he just said. Meaning? That he probably isn't thinking straight but hardly that he is scum. What I find more concerning though, is his vote switch to MrZ. Here he says MrZ is null, and wants to give him more time. So he continues to push his #1 scum-read, fair enough. This is his post between that and his vote-switch. So MrZ has gone from being null to LYNCH HIM, because he changed his mind (changing your mind =/= scum), and the absurd theory that he's scum or a blue because he didn't /out. If he's so sure about his scum-read on risk, he should ABSOLUTELY push it, instead of taking the easy out on MrZ. Yes, push your read if you think you can get your target lynched. From what he said, he didn't think he could his target lynched so he gave up. Scummy? Yes, enough to lynch, no. Especially with the crazy blue/red thing. That kind of thinking is almost always coming from town. Why would mafia bother to come up with that stuff? Look at Zephirdd, same crazy, flipped green. Finally, despite what slOosh and you think MrZentor changing his vote like that was scummy. He gave 0 indication as to why he did it other than responding to Zephirdd's bizarre case which he disagreed with? It makes 0 sense and looked to me like an attempt to get rid of his vote. rastaban voted for Zentor based on that is certaily not enough to get him lynched in my books. Compare his reasoning to the other voters and you will see it isn't as bad as you think. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
It's a shitload of WIFOM, but maybe I just have a different opinnion about this than you or VE, but I really don't see why he did NOT stop the mess if he was scum - it was just making him look worse, and he could, like you said, just answer the question and you would have dropped the case. The fact that he didn't just baffles me, but I don't think it makes him scum. Because the mess is good for scum. It is that simple. He was deliberately prolonging the confusion, he even admits to that. He was the entire focus of Day 1 and yet he felt sure enough to say he would not get lynched. If so, then he was intentionally keeping VE and myself from scumhunting elsewhere. This impares town's ability to have a succesful Day 1 lynch. There is no way a townie would do this on purpose, accidentally maybe. Like I said, I think his initial response was geniune, but his choice to prolong the chaos was scum motivated. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 26 2012 16:22 risk.nuke wrote: VE you think rastabans scumread on me is genuine? Anyway I don't know if I want to lynch rastaban because when scum have attacked me with a bad case in the past they generally back of. And townies are more prone to do the kind of moron tunneling rastaban is doing. (Given though, in the past the ones who were townies kept making tunnelingcases and tried to get me lynched. Rastaban is just calling me his #1 which is lazy and seems more mafia-aligned. So is he mafia, town, SK or null? This post says he is tunelling like a townie but he is acting mafia aligned. Clarify please. | ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
| ||
|
Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 25 2012 10:48 risk.nuke wrote: Well shraft I have feelings about people. I've just been to lazy to share them with you. Also there is the bandwagon to analyze (which I still haven't done - probably have to do tomorrow) before I feel good posting thoughts. This should be interesting, it is afterall tomorrow now. | ||
| ||
|
|
Wardi Open
Sparkling Tuna Cup
WardiTV European League
Online Event
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
The PondCast
Replay Cast
Korean StarCraft League
CranKy Ducklings
Sparkling Tuna Cup
|
|
|
EPT
