was in Bastard Mafia 2, but some jerk vigi decided to shoot poor old pinkie pie... Lets get a win!
Newbie Mini Mafia XVIII
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BioSC
United States636 Posts
was in Bastard Mafia 2, but some jerk vigi decided to shoot poor old pinkie pie... Lets get a win! | ||
BioSC
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in case it was missed, or my joke was unfunny =D | ||
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Not even bothering with the lynch, VIG SHOT EZ | ||
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I've played in one other newbie mafia game, and lurking town + scum made it hard to make reads. So post, and post often, lest I find you and do horrible things to your bodies. And hi everyone else! | ||
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On June 25 2012 12:53 Hopeless1der wrote: To further clarify my response to Release: I'm saying lynch people that we can collectively agree have been dishonest in something they have said or done. Further discussions on what constitutes 'dishonesty' may follow at a later time, or right now if whoever is reading this should so happen to desire. Right now would be the perfect time to discuss it, seeing as we've been talking about it since game start. Now would be a good time to say some things, seeing as how you have the first vote and all. | ||
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On June 26 2012 10:47 Hopeless1der wrote: Very well dNa, that rules our NrGmonk. BioSc vs AegonC Im inclined towards BioSc because he has more useless posts, whereas Aegon could just be super inactive I'm confused... You want to change policy to lynching lurkers, but want to lynch me because I'm not lurking? Huh... | ||
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On June 26 2012 12:55 Hopeless1der wrote: ##VOTE BioSC Who says I cannot maintain multiple policies. Not enough has been said for me to conclude that anyone has been dishonest. I do not agree with No-Lynch, especially in the early game. Are you not a lurker BioSC? In what way...what have you done that suggests otherwise? (p.s. I know I have to vote in the Vote Thread thread for it to count) Sorry, I'm not going to make a case on myself for you. If you believe me to be scum, make the case. Look through my filter. I've discussed policy (Hint: I want people to post too) You are voting for me? Why? Am I a lurker? I'm not even sure you know why you are voting for me. We've done and posted about pretty much the same things. So, I bounce the question back to you. What makes me a lurker, a candidate for YOUR policy, over someone who's filter I can quote in 4 lines? + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2012 03:09 AegonC wrote: /in This is my first mafia game, I believe I am signing up correctly. On June 25 2012 10:22 AegonC wrote: Perhaps the best way to approach this situation is circumspectly, that is to say don't rush into any stupid decisions. I agree with Hopeless1der, truth should be our banner and justice our sigil! | ||
BioSC
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Odd, because I was about to say similar to you. You have yet to explain to me why I've met your random, mysterious qualities for lurking, over someone with bare minimum posting standards. Here's me not discussing policy - + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2012 11:01 BioSC wrote: I like Esspen. A man after my own heart! I've played in one other newbie mafia game, and lurking town + scum made it hard to make reads. So post, and post often, lest I find you and do horrible things to your bodies. And hi everyone else! Hmm... so lets see, now who's meeting policy? Don't try to make a half assed case on me and ignore portions of my filter, especially this early, there is no reason for it. We wanted policy talk done early. I made my statement about lurkers, and that was it. Now, lets go through YOUR posts. Your opening post contains some cliche townie wisdom/ Your "policy" (don't lie) wrapped up in some cute dialect. 2-4th posts are you floundering about when Release calls you out on your policy. Trying to make yourself seem better when you are called out (I.E. excuse making.) Then this post: + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2012 04:46 Hopeless1der wrote: FOS:Esspen Blues are townies as well, yes? In what game would your suggestion be beneficial to the town? Certainly not a newbie game. This is an insane statement to make, regardless of "I wanted to see the reactions." Also, Release hasn't really questioned you except for the whole "OMGUS" as the opening post: Oh noes...Granted Release is attacking just about anyone right now, but that's to get things going. Your statement was ridiculous and right now, I'm suspect you of trying to shift the attention back onto him since he's been so vocal that it makes him an easier target. Release has gone to bed, so his pressure is off you, and now you begin shifting attention away from yourself. Start with the easiest case, Esspen with his really bad "joke" statement. Easy target to shift focus to. Finally, we arrive to your 3rd policy of the day, Lurkers. No one is really biting on Esspen for whatever reason, so you need to find something that sticks. Lurkers gets some comments, as some people have already expressed interest in that policy. So your choices are arbitrarily narrowed down to 2 people. If you honestly expect people to follow your lynch lurker policy, Aegon would have probably been a better choice. Hell, I may have gone along with you. But for whatever reason you have yet to explain adequately, you focus me. I think you may have made a few too many scumslips. You can stick to policy lynching lurkers. I'll policy lynch scum. | ||
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FOS Aegon Step up the activity. If you don't want to be next. I'm going to bed. See everyone in the morning. | ||
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On June 27 2012 04:43 Hopeless1der wrote: Even after I pressured BioSC, he responded with an OMGUS and to me still has not contributed to any other discussions. Instead he has been trying to counter-case me. He did comment on Aegon lurking but never followed up. His actions are not very committed to any stance except escaping from under my thumb. Things are said, but they are of very little consequence. As for other lurkers, NrGmonk has let us know he is very busy. We've yet to hear from AegonC. Both of them have not really contributed to town. But BioSC has had plenty of posts and opportunities to chime in and support discussions and has not done so. Maybe he needs more time? Maybe I should let up? Who knows, but his actions paint him scum on my canvas and so I voted for him. If you really think my case against you was OMGUS, you need to learn what a case is. | ||
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On June 27 2012 04:55 Hopeless1der wrote: My vote against BioSC boils down to: + Show Spoiler + I think BioSC is Active Lurking. Phew... we finally learn what constitutes "Lurking" In the eyes of Hopeless. Here's the definition taken from his link. + Show Spoiler + Examples of active lurking include posts made only of taunts, excuses for not posting, incoherent gibberish that will lead people to suspect that you do not have the Internet savvy to play Mafia, general bland agreement with whatever is going on, and so forth. For the less couth readers, this is frequently called "bullshitting" in MeatWorld. Posts made only of taunts - nope Excuses for not posting - nope incoherent gibberesh - perhaps if someone didn't speak english, nope Bland agreement - I'm the only one to make a case on you, so gonna disagree there. I really hope people aren't buying his weak case over his obvious scummy actions. I'm going to work out, be back in an hour and a half. I'll make some more reads if that's what you really want. | ||
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On June 27 2012 06:32 Hopeless1der wrote: First off, those are examples, not an exhaustive list of what constitutes active lurking. Also: + Show Spoiler + but the material posted is irrelevant or otherwise useless for scumhunting See Also: On June 26 2012 03:32 BioSC wrote: @ JieXian - We have 48 hours from the day 1 post to decide a lynch target, and then 24 hours to submit night actions. The mafia get to shoot at this time as well. Then it all starts over. This isn't all that bad, but it still counts towards my case against you. I would prefer to let the mods sort out the rules in the future He asked a question. I knew the answer. This is a newbie game. I suppose I'll just let everyone fend for themselves from now on, because that is scummy. Secondly: Posts made only of taunts (this ones a stretch, and one of the last posts hes made but still...implies I'm stupid.) + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2012 05:52 BioSC wrote: If you really think my case against you was OMGUS, you need to learn what a case is. I don't make personal attacks. Don't imply that I do. If you don't know what OMGUS is, that is ignorance. I did not OMGUS. Making a case isn't OMGUS. This is OMGUS - (Insert your accusal of me being a lurker) "OMG you think I'm a lurker! You must be scum! (Votes you back) Excuses for not posting: + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2012 13:03 BioSC wrote: Sorry, I'm not going to make a case on myself for you. If you believe me to be scum, make the case. Look through my filter. I've discussed policy (Hint: I want people to post too) You are voting for me? Why? Am I a lurker? I'm not even sure you know why you are voting for me. We've done and posted about pretty much the same things. So, I bounce the question back to you. What makes me a lurker, a candidate for YOUR policy, over someone who's filter I can quote in 4 lines? If you really think I'm going to make a case on myself for why I'm scum, I really can't help you. It's not my job to tell you why I'm scummy. I'm not, and you have failed to do so adequately. + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2012 03:09 AegonC wrote: /in This is my first mafia game, I believe I am signing up correctly. On June 25 2012 10:22 AegonC wrote: Perhaps the best way to approach this situation is circumspectly, that is to say don't rush into any stupid decisions. I agree with Hopeless1der, truth should be our banner and justice our sigil! Incoherent Gibberish: + Show Spoiler + Okay you didn't meet this one...yet I won't. Me, Release, Vivax, and Keiriathi are the only ones making sense atm. Bland Agreement: + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2012 11:01 BioSC wrote: I like Esspen. A man after my own heart! I've played in one other newbie mafia game, and lurking town + scum made it hard to make reads. So post, and post often, lest I find you and do horrible things to your bodies. And hi everyone else! Uh huh. One of the first posts of the game (7th) and I began the policy talk on lurkers. Totally agreeing with people blindly there. Last thing: + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2012 05:57 BioSC wrote: SNIP I'm going to work out, be back in an hour and a half. I'll make some more reads if that's what you really want. 3 hours left to deadline at time of post. Which leaves you about an hour and a half for you to make some reads and allow people time to review in order to decide who to vote for. That's some serious scum maneuvering right there. If people are unsure of whether to vote BioSC and are in a tossup between a couple of choices, I'd propose temp-voting BioSC until he at the very least provides the reads he has kind of said he'd be willing to do...you know, if that's what we really want Responses in spoilers in bold Honestly, your case is bad and I don't know how to make people see it more. I don't need to make reads. The read I want dead is right here. | ||
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On June 27 2012 08:04 NrGmonk wrote: ##Vote Keirathi Rather random vote that won't affect anything, because I don't expect Keirathi to get enough votes to get lynched. Get your vote off of him. That is probably the scummiest thing you could possibly do right now. | ||
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On June 27 2012 08:14 Esspen wrote: There are cases, but those cases are not going to be lynched anyway as now it's either Hopeless or Rofl. I unfortunately cannot vote for Hopeless as only thing he's done is gone maybe too far with attacking you, otherwise I completely agree with him. You aren't seeing my point. Voting for yourself does NOTHING. FOR. TOWN. As it is right now, Scum could have come into today, put all their votes on <insert random target here> and left, without saying a word, and he would be lynched. Do you really want town's major KP manipulated like that? I sure as hell don't. Make a read on a case. Vote on it. There is NO excuse. This is how you play Mafia, and its what people should be doing. Otherwise, this game is a waste, for both town AND scum. | ||
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On June 27 2012 08:15 NrGmonk wrote: Can you tell me why, because I honestly don't know. Is it scummy because it's asshole-ish or because it makes me seem like mafia? I honestly haven't paid enough attention to the discussion to make an informed vote, so I'd rather make a vote that essentially won't count rather than adversely affect the game. I would vote for myself, but according to the rules, it says I have to try to win. See my post towards Esspen. | ||
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On June 27 2012 08:39 Vivax wrote: I don't understand town atm. We had policy lynch discussion just at the beginning of the game where the general consensus seemed to be lynch all lurkers. I have yet to see one guy who says that we should lynch lurkers in absence of clear scumtells. And yet there are people voting for all sorts of people except for AegonC, the biggest lurker (looks like there's gonna be lots to be replaced tho). Did I miss any decisive scumtells out there? I've made my case. This town seems so set on lynching lurkers that they can't see a scum right in front of their faces. It's going to be tough to motivate myself to play if this is the activity level I'm going to get from here on out. | ||
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On June 27 2012 08:40 Vivax wrote: EBWOP: I have yet to see one guy who didn't say that we should lynch lurkers in absence of clear scumtells. The only one has been Hopeless, because his neck is on the chopping block. The rest of town? Who the hell knows. | ||
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I hope that town learns a lesson from this. Scum didn't even need to vote for Hopeless OR Rofl to get a townie lynch. Lurkers, step up the posting. This is unacceptable. | ||
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Why the hell would I want to add to an already useless topic? I wanted him to post more to see if he made any more scummy moves. He did, and I followed through. Sucks that he's town, but it is what it is. I don't remember saying that it was a "Serious, life-threatening vote". It is a vote, however, and it got him nervous being under the spotlight. THAT'S on you. Am I saying your scummy? ATM, no. But to say that his constant stance switching and bad posts were my fault is ignorant at best. I was promoting posts. I didn't want to vote a lurker, but this game is so obviously full of them that it has to be looked into. | ||
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You called it "silly time wasting" and "f***ing semantics". What is your point? I've explained why I made that post. | ||
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Springing to mind are a couple potential targets. Esspen - wanting to vote for himself, I called him out on it, then ends up voting to seal Hopeless' fate. I would like to know why he voted for Hopeless, and why he didn't feel like explaining the vote. Jiexian - Vote on release early on in the cycle, on to lurking. Could be the timezone difference, could simply be a scum allowing town to mislynch. Get in here, make some reads. <insert random lurker here> - pretty self explanatory. I would rather focus on finding at least one scum tomorrow, but if I can't, the ones who were just barely above posting limits should be looked at. Honestly, a 4 vote lynch in a 13 player pool is just silly. It's going to be even worse if there are 2 mod kills in this game. Hopefully they find replacements and they are active. | ||
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Honestly, it isn't looking good for us right now. Not only was a KP killed at night, there has been a grand total of TWO (2) people to even bother to check in. Esspen: Where the hell are you? Your vote and subsequent lurking are looking really scummy, man. Do you think that you can't save yourself? I beg to differ. Coming in and saying SOMETHING, anything at all, can help. Right now we have NOTHING to go on, and the 3 or so of us talking can't exactly make any headway. Bass: You bring up some valid points. Obviously Esspen is acting scummy. I would be down with a vote on him, barring he come and actually bring up some amazing defense. What are your thoughts on some of the lurkers? Keiriathi comes to mind off the top of my head, posting early but obviously disappearing. MiltonKram: Welcome to the game, I really hope you don't meet the same fate as your predecessor... >.> Same goes to you Jingle. You already have 100% more contribution than your replacement, but as the 2nd highest vote getter (of a mislynch) I can't exactly just ignore that. | ||
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That post you quoted? Yeah, that's a bit of frustration pouring out. Obviously it fell on some ears, as the replacements flooded in and started posting. Heck, even you are here. Honestly, If you were going to keep lurking, I would push to lynch you. Now that you are here, and have posted your reads, which of me or Vivax is the bigger scum read atm? On June 29 2012 01:50 Keirathi wrote: Sorry for my inactivity. Random bad time with tons of extra work, and a friend came in from out of town for a few days. I'll try to catch up tonight and give some input. As much as it sucks to say, we don't have as much time as you probably think. I'm holding you to this post. Come in and post some reads, otherwise, this post sounds suspiciously like a scum "dodging activity" post. | ||
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On June 29 2012 08:17 Vivax wrote: There is one thing I did that is pretty failsafe proof of my townie status. I'll post it in the second half of day 2. If you think you are a good townie, then you should have found it already. At least now town will know that there is at least one scum jumping on the bandwagon against me, and scum might even have started it. Honestly, if you think you have some mysterious, game changing info to prove your innocence/explain all this round-about play you've had, why wait to post? Post it now, please. Info is what we need, there has been too many lurkers to keep waiting on information. Esspen - I'm not getting into an OMGUS with you. If you think I'm a scum for making a case on a townie, well, not much to say about that. I've already defended myself on that front. On June 29 2012 01:50 Keirathi wrote: Sorry for my inactivity. Random bad time with tons of extra work, and a friend came in from out of town for a few days. I'll try to catch up tonight and give some input. Yup. Still waiting mate. Here's a little motivation to not lurk and participate. ## Vote Keirathi | ||
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Catching up now. | ||
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On June 29 2012 22:56 Vivax wrote: Well, read the secret then, I don't even have to play with unrevealed cards cause I am going to die anyway: + Show Spoiler + It's actually not that hard to guess + Show Spoiler + You just have to look at the guy I was suspecting from day 1 on + Show Spoiler + Since I was suspicious of him, and being the detective + Show Spoiler + I checked him and he returned scum Now decide if you would rather take the risk of lynching me or the guy who initiated all this bandwagon on me. It's sad however that noone suspected him besides me. Are you really claiming DT? The only way I'm going to believe a claim like this 100% is if you flip. Though I understand your hand is kind of forced, as you are on the chopping block. TBH, with the lack of breadcrumbs and play in general, sorry to say but I don't believe it. If you die today, and flip DT, then we can finally have a track to go on. | ||
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On June 30 2012 00:44 Vivax wrote: Lol Bio, you would rather lynch someone who claimed DT for information instead of the guy he's accusing? You don't understand. If you lynch the guy I'm accusing, you know if I spoke the truth and you still have the DT. If you lynch the DT, you know the guy he accused is scum, but you lost the DT. Why do you choose the worse option? Both give the same information, but one kills a blue role. No. You lynch DT's to prove they are DT's. You could just as easily be scum fake roleclaiming to save yourself, and the possibility exists that there isn't actually another DT to counter-claim. DT's just aren't supposed to be getting targeted this early, so your forced to claim. If you flip Detective, we know that your checks are 100% true. Weather they are accurate or not (Godfather, Miller, ect) is another story. And like I said, I simply just don't believe you. | ||
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On June 30 2012 01:18 Keirathi wrote: So after catching up in the thread, 2 things stick out: Why would you want to vote me if you're detective and have proof that someone is scum? and 2, despite that, I actually feel inclined to trust the detective claim. There's really not much point tot he claim at that point if you're getting bandwagoned, because if you're wrong about the scum, then you just get lynched the next day, which doesn't really help the mafia out very much. Although, you *COULD* be claiming det and giving up a teamate to appear clean for a while until someone else claims det and we are forced to decide who's lying. Wrong. A mislynch is something that is ALWAYS good for mafia. Why would the scum team settle for just losing one of their own, when they could take a townie with them? | ||
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On June 30 2012 01:31 Keirathi wrote: Also re BioSC: That's the worst logic I've ever heard. You kill the target the DT claimed as scum, NOT THE DT HIMSELF. That would make no sense at all. Why would you not want more of the DT's info, assuming he is actually the DT? Here's the possible ways this can play out: 1) We lynch Vivax. He flips DT, so we lynch Jester tomorrow and have 1 mafia down. 2) We kill Vivax, he doesnt flip DT. 1 mafia down. 3) We lynch Jester, hes Mafia. Mafia compatriats kills Vivax tonight. 1 mafia down. 4) We lynch Jester, hes Mafia. Mafia targets someone else. 1 Mafia down, mild suspicion on Vivax still, at least 1 more night of "investigations". 5) We lynch Jester, hes Mafia. Doc save on Vivax. 1 mafia down, and another night of confirmed investigations. 6) We lynch Jester, hes NOT Mafia. We lynch Vivax tomorrow. It's pretty easy to see that 4 is our BEST CASE SCENARIO. You are assuming. Why, in a game where we literally have NO IDEA who is what, what possible roles there are, ect. you are assuming stuff? I really can't believe this. There is only one way to make Vivax's claim true, and that is to flip him. I honestly can't think of how all these wild assumptions are being made and then taken as true. I'm going to be comparing things I can actually see, which is posts/playstyle in this game. | ||
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On June 30 2012 02:04 Keirathi wrote: What!? Are you dense? My list was *EVERY POSSIBLE SCENARIO THAT CAN HAPPEN* regardless of what roles there are. Okay, actually I missed a couple of possible scenarios. Vivax could be DT, and there could be no doc. The outcome is basically the same as #3. The last possible scenario is that Vivax isnt DT *AND* Jingle isn't Mafia. In which case, Vivax is retardedly dumb, and town ends up losing. Now, for obvious reasons, you can see why I didn't list this one. It makes no sense whatsoever. Yes. You are making the assumption that Vivax is a DT, and saying its the best path for town. I do not believe Vivax is the DT at all. So how am I dense? You leave out scenarios and call ME dense? Amusing. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it isn't possible. | ||
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On June 30 2012 02:10 Keirathi wrote: 2) We kill Vivax, he doesnt flip DT. 1 mafia down. 6) We lynch Jingle, hes NOT Mafia. We lynch Vivax tomorrow. Where did I leave out scenarios where Vivax isn't DT? Thats what those look like to me. Yes, you posted your wonderful list of things that could happen. I'm saying YOU are assuming he's a DT, thus you are saying that the best scenarios involve you taking 100% gospel of Vivax's claim. I don't. Not one bit. Case coming up shortly. | ||
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On June 29 2012 01:55 Vivax wrote: Also, to remind you of the information gained from lynching one of you: And don't forget that my main target is Keirathi cause of his mafiavibes. You're putting words into my mouth saying that I prefer a policy lynch to a scumminess lynch, Jingle. The post I'm quoting myself from proves it, too. You said this before your claim of DT, but after your check. Why would you be pushing/claiming a main target of Keirathi if you claim to have a red check? Why, as a town aligned DT, would you go after someone you believe to be red, rather than someone a check says is red? Also: On June 28 2012 20:45 Vivax wrote: Regarding JingleHell vs Esspen: I think lynching Jinglehell would give us more information. Esspen might very well just be a sloppy player. But I prefer a Keirathi lynch cause of the scummy behavior and the low attention on him right now. From even earlier in the day. You are changing your votes based on the person suspecting you to be lying. I honestly can't see why you would suddenly just change your suspicions around until after someone comes swinging at you. I don't believe your claim. I feel like you are simply claiming just to save your own neck while its on the chopping block. I would rather lynch into you to confirm your role than to suddenly switch votes based on inconsistencies. ## Vote Vivax | ||
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On June 30 2012 02:40 Keirathi wrote: So you would rather lose a blue role than keep one? You make no sense and I'm done arguing with you. If other people believe that garbage, then town is doomed and there's very little point to any discussion. Same. I fail to see how my argument is "garbage" when I'm not the one taking random claims as true over the way people are actually playing. | ||
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On June 30 2012 02:46 Vivax wrote: If you kill me, you can hide saying you had no reason to believe I might be DT. LOL | ||
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On June 30 2012 03:16 Keirathi wrote: The simple fact of the matter is that its better for the town if Jingle flips town than it is for Vivax to flip DT. Thats really all it comes down to. Simple game mechanics. This is the problem with your play right now. You've spent so much time out of the thread, you refuse to actually read into players' feeds and make reads off of them. Right now, vivax is lying about being a DT. I know it. He's trying to save himself by pushing the scummiest person from Day 1 after being called out for his play. After he claims DT, you are resorting to mechanics to try and justify his bad play. Look through his filter, and the cases. I don't believe he's a DT at all. How people are buying this claim from a person who was set to die and has this horrible case with suspicions pointed at pretty much everyone is beyond me. | ||
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On June 30 2012 06:34 Miltonkram wrote: You guys, Vivax's DT claim is one of the scummiest DT claims I've ever seen. He pushes for a Keirathi lynch even when he has a red check on JingleHell. He is scum, and he is obvious scum. If we don't lynch him, it will be one of the worst town plays I've ever seen. He has slipped and it's been obvious. Please, please, please lynch this guy. This. | ||
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On June 30 2012 06:38 NrGmonk wrote: I agree that Vivax seems quite fishy, but your sudden switch of votes seems even more fishy to me. If you can convince me of a reason you switched voting within the span of one hour, I definitely reconsider my vote. I don't understand this logic. Do you really believe right now that Rofl/Jingle is more scummy than Vivax? | ||
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Good news, I was right. Bad news... Green. GG man, good player, though wish you would have just played instead of this claiming nonsense. | ||
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On July 01 2012 20:31 Esspen wrote: I agree with all of you! Are you just opting out? If you are scum, this is the strangest bus I've seen. If you are town, then IDK what to say. Are you just going to afk till tomorrow? | ||
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Yes, yesterday was my birthday. I would apologize for not wanting to be here more, but that would be lying =D I'm catching up on the No-Lynch vs. Esspen case right now. ATM, I'm leaning towards Esspen. I've given the poor guy lots of chances through this game, but I think I need to re-look at him. I'm not 100% against a No-Lynch, but right now it's all just theory and probability. I would rather try to make a read on people than hope we have any blues left. | ||
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The problem with No-Lynch in my eyes is that it relies too much on unknowns. We don't know if there even are any more blue roles, or if they are even going to be helpful in a MYLO/Mass Claim scenario. I would rather put my trust in voting someone who's been acting scummier and scummier as the game goes on. ##Vote Esspen | ||
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You guys apparently had me pegged as Scum in the Obs QT and I'd like some ideas to improve my game (as it was my first scum game) Thanks! | ||
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Yeah, I didn't really ever mean to make Hopeless the target, but With Rofl opting out of the game and Jiex asleep during a pretty pivotal time, I kinda went a little stir crazy =D I had to come up with something quick, because it was a policy lynch on the GF and I felt like I was left out to dry a bit. Same question about personal improvement tips, I like the scum interaction tips, I'll try to incorporate that next time. | ||
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