EPTI will not be modkilled.
EDIT: I like blazinghand's dementorish personification of modkills. Quite apt.
Emergency Mini Mafia!
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I will not be modkilled. EDIT: I like blazinghand's dementorish personification of modkills. Quite apt. | ||
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Seems like some people are writing him off as a newbie though, which I think is dangerous. He's mentioned that he's played elsewhere so he could be quite experienced. Like I said though, if he likes to play rash and talk a lot and he's scum, eventually he'll have to start contradicting himself so just keep close tabs on what he says. As far as the mislynch policy: Seems like just a policy. Good to know that he believes this so we can hold him to this belief later on in the game. @VE, In one sentence you claim that: Town's aim needs to be lengthening the game, not shortening it. That's why we aim for scum every single lynch, because every scum lynch increases the number of days the game lasts. Yet you follow it up with this: Also I'm going to suggest we policy-lynch Katina if she doesn't prove her worth to town by providing us with some sort of content to be held accountable for if we are unable to find a suitable scummy candidate. Care to explain? Is Katina really that unhelpful as town? @MrZentor: Your first post today is what I would call extremely 'safe'. While I don't expect the same self-voting Zentor as last time, I do expect someone who can get reactions out of people in order to help town. Please don't sacrifice that. | ||
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@Hyaach, Shraft, furer: I've never even seen your names around here. What are all your experiences like with forum mafia and do you have links to some of your games? I agree that MrZentor and ghost are playing what I'd deem cautious. I'd really like to hear more from MrZentor though, as he seemed cautious even before the game started (asking wbg if he could be in the game, etc.) Also, I do know that blazinghand has a fairly good reputation around here and while he had a lot of good advice for furer day 1, he neglected to inform any of us his opinion on whether furer was acting from a mafia or town point of view. @blazinghand: How about putting some solid opinions down in the thread, or are you scum? | ||
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I expect more out of blazinghand than out of ghost. I'll go back and read some of ghost's other games later this afternoon, but for now: ##Vote blazinghand | ||
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blazing's case on MrZentor is weak and contains what is certainly an appeal to our emotions: MrZ quotes it like it's some sort of evidence then says "I can't wait" as though that's analysis, but don't be tricked! It's not! Seriously? Says "I can't wait" as though that's analysis? I agree that it's a null tell for someone to claim to make a case, then not follow through with it. Town and scum both do that for different reasons. But I don't believe that MrZentor seriously thought that "I can't wait" was a good case, nor do I see how you could think that either. Also, as others have pointed out, there was a clear difference between MrZentor claiming not to know blazing's alignment, and ghost's claiming to believe VE's claim but also not trust his reads of VE. RE: Ghost: I had a look through his filter and I'm not impressed. The one good post he's had was an analysis of blazing's behaviour. Unfortunately, he followed it up later with a pretty lame interpretation of blazing's case on MrZentor: The way I see it, one of the hallmarks of his style is not abuse, but aggression. I'm not comfortable with how, early on, he didn't really accuse anyone of anything, instead squandering his posts on game mechanics instead of scum hunting. That being said, I do like his recent aggression towards MrZentor, who I think is scummy. At the moment, I'd be happier lynching MrZentor today over blazinghand. His posting is empty. I don't think blazing's case on MrZentor was aggressive at all. Several people had already expressed their suspicions of MrZentor and I'd say he was a pretty easy target to go after. RE: Navillus: He both says a lot without saying a lot (i.e. I get the impression that he is summarizing facts) and he focuses on calling out inactives. Both this post and his more recent post seem much too wordy for the points they are attempting to get across. Also, he both claims that pressure voting is ineffective when the person knows it's just a pressure vote AND he leaves his vote on hyaa as a pressure vote. Care to explain this contradiction? | ||
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I would like the people who I just addressed to comment on what I said as that's helping me hunt scum. Talking to players of a role which may or may not exist is not helping me find scum. | ||
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On June 06 2012 12:21 MrZentor wrote: Oooooo, I like his style. It reminds me of something, but what? I don't think I've actually laughed out loud while reading a mafia game until now  . Props to you, sir. | ||
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First off, if anyone reads Pandain's history, they can quickly verify that he does indeed often fake claim as town. Have a look at Mr Wiggles Mini 2 where day 2 he claims watcher/tracker and ends up providing town with a very solid town read based on the reactions of AKCT. This part of the case on him is a null read. Second, the wagon grew extremely fast. VE, you have to agree with this, and I take it that's why you think that he's more likely SK than mafia. The thing is though, we don't even know if there's an SK in this game and the way this lynch is going, we're setting up to basically do scum's work for them by eliminating a blue role. Let's let mafia deal with him, and as the game goes on, if they haven't, he's going to be under a ton of scrutiny. Much like your miller claim, this essentially puts Pandain under the microscope and if there are any weird night kills he's going to be questioned on it. He knows this. Why would he willingly do this as scum? I think we should let Pandain play this one out for awhile because I think we can get a better read on him once we know if there's an SK or not. Third, blazinghand's reaction to Pandain's claim was very towny. I think that THAT is the aggressive blazing that we were actually looking for and I don't think that he's the best scum candidate we have any longer (read on for who that is). ##Unvote blazinghand Finally, I think everyone should have a good clear look at the people who have jumped on the Pandain train and what their reasoning really is. Specifically, I believe Hyaach is scum: On June 06 2012 22:45 Hyaach wrote: Late to the party but did no one thought that Pand was fishing for information when he asked Masons to claim? He could very likely be a SK as well but either way his scum. This looks very much like scum trying to justify a reason for hopping on a bus. Pandain wasn't "fishing" for information when he asked masons to claim, he was straight up asking masons to claim. Also, saying he could very likely be an SK as well seems to be searching for an excuse for Pandain not to be scum. Hyaach seems to know whether Pandain is scum or town and is making up reasons to either bandwagon or bus him. His voting seems very forced and I can only justify it from a scum perspective. ##Vote Hyaach Now, that being said, I believe that no lynches more often than not favour scum and I know it's late to bring up a new target, so if noone else sees what I do here, I'd be willing to switch to an alternative to ensure we get information from our day 1 lynch. | ||
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Look at what he's done: a) He hasn't contributed to any scumhunting. He hasn't asked questions and he hasn't used his vote to pressure people. b) His vote on Pandain seemed very forced, as Navillus and I have both mentioned. c) He blames his lack of content on the time zone difference. There were a ton of things he could have talked about when he was online. Not being online at the same time as others is not an excuse for not commenting on things that have happened in the game. Now there are still over 48 hours for things to happen in the thread, but if I had to decide a lynch at this exact moment, it'd be Hyaach. As far as zelblade goes, I think the questions he's asking are leading questions and are effective at putting pressure on his targets. He's not just asking people questions that are easy to answer, he seems to be implying a certain answer and this is very similar to my own method of scumhunting. I'd much prefer to lynch Hyaach. | ||
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On June 07 2012 20:11 Hyaach wrote: I was looking for players number too and it doesnt say anywhere how many mafia there is. Nor how KP is decided. So how did Furekip came to the conclusion of 4 ? We could WIFOM away about why he might have said there are 4 scum (I can think of both town and mafia motivations, whether that number is right or not), or you could try and find someone doing scummy things. For instance, VE just called out a BH/zelblade possible scum team. Can you read through the thread and give us your opinion on those two players? | ||
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In every game I've played/read here on TL, the simplest explanation has been the correct one 99% of the time. How about we start by lynching the most scummy people rather than trying to WIFOM about whether blazinghand would try and shoot his own teammates. @blazinghand: I agree that furer is looking like a very good lynch target for today. I agree completely that if he is town, he's perfect for scum to keep alive. I know I don't want him around at LYLO. That being said, I think it'd still be in our best interest to discuss other players as well in the case that furer has just straight up forgotten about this game and doesn't show up for the next day and a half. Let's not waste that time. Which brings me to this: I really feel like people are giving Hyaach too much leeway here and am filling a ton of resistance to his lynch. The guy has been more active than furer and has provided less content. We have nothing in the thread to read him by. It seems as though he's just barely trying to skirt our radars while saying as little as possible. He needs to be lynched. ##Vote Hyaach @VE: I apologize, I have not had a chance to look over Katina's filter since you requested that of me this morning. I will do that as soon as I get home tonight, it's been a very long day at work trying to get caught up for next week. | ||
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- Noticed the same thing I did about blazinghand's 'off' play. Now that I think about this more, it lines up with his vig claim - being a well known player, it makes sense to try and survive until he could get his shot off. - Puts thoughts down in the thread in a clear, concise manner. Offers thoughts on multiple players without needing to be urged to do so. - Isn't afraid to push the stronger players when they're not under pressure (blazinghand, VE) I don't agree with everything Katina's saying, especially since the case on VE essentially boils down to "VE is being VE so he's scum". But I don't see anything particularly scummy in her posting and I do see some things which I don't think scum would be doing (i.e. pushing VE and blazinghand). | ||
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Sticking with my plan of not wasting an entire day cycle, assuming furer doesn't even come back, I'd like to hear some opinions on ghost_403. Specifically from Artanis, zelblade and Hyaach. What are your guys' stances on him? Hyaach, I'm still waiting for some of your other thoughts, if you wouldn't mind adding this to the list. Please note though that I am not suggesting ghost as a lynch candidate for today. The last thing I want to do is provide too many candidates for scum to choose from on where to put their vote and kill our vote analysis. | ||
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Imagine that you think that this guy is scum and he just took a gamble that there were no town vig's and now you have him red handed. Your first reaction is to say, "Ah ha! I've got you!" But immediately after you say that you think to yourself: I don't want to just up and counterclaim because of the reasons already stated: What if there's a roleblocker and you're just going to die? You'd basically have to rely on a medic who you don't even know exists to save you if you claim and you've probably just traded a blue role for a goon. Why would you do that when you can just convince everyone else to lynch the hell out of this guy and you still get to save your shot? | ||
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On June 09 2012 07:10 Blazinghand wrote: "Oh Blazinghand what's with this point" At this point, I still thought MrZ was scum. I figured we could just lynch him, and I'd shoot Pandain, with my bullet, overnight. I knew Pandain was scum because he couldn't also be a vigi. When a vigi fake-claims, as a real vigi it's pretty standard to just shoot him to prove you're the real vigi, this was my initial plan until I got some support for the Pandain lynch. Like, you're all wondering why I stepped a bit lightly around Pandain. The reason is: you'd do the same if you're a vigi confronting a fake-vigi-claiming scum. So, VE, you're saying that you don't think that this logic makes sense? And you don't think that the fact that he was "AVOIDING DOING SCUMMY THINGS" could be attributed to a vigilante trying to survive until the night? | ||
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either) If mafia, thinks he can argue his way out of there being only a single night kill or) If SK, thinks he can go the rest of the game without shooting someone else or being a likely target by mafia because otherwise he'd be under a ton of suspicion I really don't see either of these being legit, mainly because I know that I myself would have been all over his ass if either of them occured. In order to believe that Hyaach would fake-claim JK as either mafia or SK, we have to believe that he: As either mafia or SK is worried that he's about to be lynched and wants to buy himself at least one more day to argue out of the situation. I'm going to take a gamble here on the fact that our town is good enough to lynch the shit out of blazinghand for dumb vigilante claims should they end up not matching up with our expectations of the game. I believe blazinghand thinks this too and wouldn't try to pull off something this risky. | ||
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On June 10 2012 06:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I've got a scumread on someone that makes me feel BH should be mafia (don't ask me to expand on it, I'm planning on posting it on the last night hour) Playing by connections before anyone has flipped scum has only ever ended poorly in my TL mafia experience. It's all WIFOM and until we see some red on the board, I'd highly recommend against it. | ||
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On June 10 2012 06:37 Artanis[Xp] wrote: 1) He's on the verge of arguing himself out of a no night kill situation, and he can fall back on not getting his shot refunded if he gets roleblocked once. He could always claim being RBed and at worst he'd trade himself for a RBer, at best he'd get town cred. 2) I don't think there's an SK in this game, especially given there were no night kills. He didn't have that much pressure on him when he claimed he was RBed at all, in fact it looked like furer was going to take up the heat. I can see how he would feel pressured by thinking a Roleblocker might claim to have blocked him, but then why claim JK? It doesn't make sense from a game setup perspective as it's a very unlikely role to be present given the other roles that'd have to be present too. Blazinghand isn't particularly afraid of making risky plays. The question is not if Town would lynch him for it, but if Blazinghand thinks he could get away with it if he was scum. Given he could make this play as both town and scum, I don't think you're giving him enough credit here. Maybe I just don't remember playing in a game where scum made such a bold move on night 1. I've had a scum read on Hyaach since day 1, but do you think they could both be town? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [Offtopic Euro 2012] + Why couldn't the Netherlands put the friggen ball on the net!? My girlfriend and I were getting so stressed out (both of dutch ancestry)  | ||
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Here is how I see it (I've already stated this multiple times): If blazing is the SK, then claiming vig is really dumb because he's gonna be shot by mafia later in the game. Almost guaranteed. If blazing is scum, again I think it's really dumb to claim vig. However, multiple people have pointed out that he could be playing on our belief that mafia wouldn't do that, blah blah wifom. That being said, something I don't understand is why he would be banking on a town RB to claim if he's not town. Like, if you're scum or SK why aren't you trying to control your own destiny? He's basically relying on another town member to save him or he knows he's going to be lynched. Conclusion: Probably vigilante. On furerkip/Palmar: I've never seen scum act as wrecklessly as furerkip did day 1. That being said, I pointed out that he wasn't from around here so that shouldn't be a town tell. Also, as VE pointed out, his willingness to mislynch townies seems quite scum motivated. I think that unless Palmar shows us an incredibly towny attitude and finds us some scum, fast, he needs to be lynched. I've read through the thread and everyone's filters and I'm really questioning what I think of Katina. At first I had noted that she was appearing towny because she wasn't afraid to go after the vets like VE and blazing. However, I'm questioning this logic, especially given the Hyaach flip (see below). Mainly though, besides go after VE and blazing, she's done very little scum hunting and has been hesitant to put her thoughts in the thread. The reason I mention the Hyaach flip is because I'm having a hard time following her reasoning for keeping her vote on BH instead of Hyaach. It looks a lot like scum trying to gain some town cred: She claims that there was no way Hyaach was mafia, but the only reasoning she had for not voting him beforehand was that it didn't make sense for Hyaach to claim being RBed if he was mafia. This doesn't make any sense and has been refuted multiple times in the thread! Yet she keeps coming back to it as an excuse not to lynch Hyaach. Also, even though she seems so sure that Hyaach was going to flip town: Yep. There was no way Hyaach was Mafia. She barely tried to prevent his lynch. How can you be so sure someone is town, yet give only a terrible argument and not try harder than that to prevent a mislynch? I think Katina is scum. | ||
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However, I will respond to everything as soon as I get another chance. | ||
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On June 11 2012 09:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Ah, so we'd need 4 roleblockers to solve the puzzle then. One to block Hyaach, one to block scum KP, and one to block you, the fourth being Hyaach himself as JK. That or 3 roleblockers and an SK. Both sound unlikely. I hate voting based on setup speculation given our 'success' with it so far. If you're speaking the truth, I urge the RBer to come forward. I've had a change of heart regarding not revealing my blue read as I feel there's a strong possibility he's red. I present to you: Snarfs. It was pretty clear to me that this was pressure on lurkers to make them post more rather than actually trying to get her lynched. For the rest he also posted a bunch of questions yet didn't really chime in much until figuring out where people stood. Joined the BH bandwagon until BH started posting seriously, and suddenly went full on against Hyaach, whose case he had against him was very weak. Just trying to get 2 things here: 1) More information about Katina 2) Some sort of reaction from VE, even if it was just in the form of more information on Katina. Obviously, I was provided neither. a) That's not a mafia trait, that's a lazy player trait. b) A townie being pressured also does strange things. His vote looked a bit sheepish but not that strange. c) He never blamed his lack of content on the time zone difference. He he looked sheepish with his vote on Pandain because he woke up when the case already took off, which is a legitimate argument. It was the combination of the three things that made me think he was scum. His vote on Pandain encouraged me to look back through his filter and when I didn't see anything that indicated to me he was trying to find mafia, he jumped to the top of my scum list. The fact that he kept stalling in providing analysis on players was enough for me to keep my vote on him and remain convinced that he was scum. Then fails to name any examples of why Ghost is scummy or anything with his own opinion, despite claiming he just read the thread again. How come you didn't provide any reasoning here yourself? I try to get people to place their thoughts on players I find suspicious down in the thread. Ghost was a null read for me at the time (still is and I think there are higher scum targets for us to be going after) and by gauging other players' thoughts I work my opinion of both the player I'm interested in and the players who respond. Often town players respond well to such statements as it gives them an opportunity to try and find scum and I can usually cross people off my scum list. If I lead with my own thoughts then I just give the other players on opportunity to say, "Hmm yea, I agree with you, he is looking suspicious" which is often a null tell, as opposed to someone actually coming forward and being willing to offer thoughts on a player. His defense on BH is absolutely damning with only ONE clause out. That being that he's the town RBer. This defense makes absolutely no sense. He's basically saying it's dumb for Blazing to claim vig unless he's town because anything else is wifom. Given the amount of roleblock roles available in the rolelist, it's not a stretch that he could claim being roleblocked, especially since vigis only get one shot and don't get their shots refunded even if they get roleblocked makes it very easy for him to claim it as scum. Calling someone like Blazinghand who loves to do funky stuff town simply because he claimed vigi is incredibly shortsighted. I also don't see how him claiming vig is going to get him shot if he's sk. He said he fired his only shot so mafia would think he's just a VT now, which would be great if he's SK. Given the amount of suspicion town still has it'd make sense for mafia not to shoot him. If he's SK he could've still been roleblocked too, and he could've expected that his kill on furer would go through. The claims on this last post show me you're incredibly convinced BH is town, meaning you know things I don't. Given your play so far I'd expect you to be smarter than this. Therefore you are scum or you're a RBer, in which case now is the time to claim. ##Vote: Snarfs Sorry to say I'm not the roleblocker. TL towns lynch people for dumb reasons all the time and I've been on those wagons a few times in the recent past. See MrZentor in Wheel of Fortune for a good example of what I'm talking about. See Pandain this game for another example. That's not to say they might not be mafia, but people need to stop assuming that just because someone does something stupid/suspicious that they must be mafia. In fact, often doing something stupid/blatantly suspicious is a town tell. I'm trying to be better than the average TL mafia player. My reads have actually been half decent the last few games I've played. From now on, if I think we're going to mislynch then I'm going to tell you that I think it's a mislynch. Especially if I'm in a game where we haven't nailed scum once yet. I'm also going to provide who I think is a good lynch instead (in this case, Katina), and reasons why (as I gave at the night post). Show me a game where someone has actually been dumb enough to claim vig night 1 and has then survived and gone on to win the game in a situation where the killing power of mafia was messed up on the night he claimed vig. I don't think people are that stupid. I mean, look at this game, people are already ready and willing to lynch him. Do you not think that he would have thought, if he was mafia, about the fact that people would probably want to lynch him? @blazinghand: Your suspicions of me arose from the fact that I'm not pushing you to get information, but do I really need to? Look at how many people we have pushing you, one more isn't going to get anything else out of you. I'd rather focus my attention elsewhere for now and come back if mafia still haven't killed you in another day or two because if you're town then you're probably a pretty high target on their list. (NOT TO SAY I'M JUST GOING TO FLIP OUT AND ASSUME HE'S MAFIA IN TWO DAYS, JUST THAT HE MIGHT REQUIRE MORE ATTENTION THAN I'M CURRENTLY GIVING HIM) | ||
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Tell me, BH, how did you honestly expect not to be lynched before lylo with your vig claim? Because clearly if your goal was to lynch everyone who thought you might be town you would have failed pretty damn quick. ##Vote blazinghand I will take guaranteed scum and an extra 3 days to draw more discussion out of others over any other possible scum read I have. That being said though, I would still like to hear everyone's opinions on Katina. | ||
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On June 12 2012 03:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote: His vote on Pandain was one of many. Did you feel it was neccesary to look back at all of them? It seems weird to me that it just so happens that Hyaach is the one to make you look back at it. As an experienced Mafia player, you should be well aware by now that people not scumhunting doesn't equal being scum, especially newbie townies. It's hard to provide analysis when your English isn't that good as his clearly wasn't. I find your reasons for calling him scum meek at best. And yes, I'm aware I did vote for him at the end too. However, that's a lot later and based on different things. Yes, I did feel it was neccessary to go back and look at all the votes on Pandain, and I did just that. I even said earlier that everyone should go back and look at the votes on Pandain. I'm not saying the entire case boiled down to him not scumhunting. I'm saying that that contributed, along with the other points I've made (i.e. shady sheeping onto Pandain, posts which refer to not being around when things happen as an excuse not to provide opinions on things, generally avoiding commenting on other players), in him being my strongest scum read. Wait, first you find Ghost suspicious, then you find him a null read? You can't cut the pie and eat it, too. By only posing questions and not giving your own opinions you make it very hard for other people to read your intentions, something that's good for mafia. Scum doesn't know who people think other people think are town and would love to know so they can kill that person. By not sharing your own opinion first you give yourself an opening to which you can adapt your opinion before you've ever given it. Townies usually aren't that cautious. Townies will give their own opinions, and people that sheep your opinion should be treated with extreme caution and can be a scumtell on its own. 1) If you're not a town read, you're suspicious. Null = not a town read = suspicious. 2) I understand that by not giving opinions all the time, scum can easily adapt to what other people say. I've been trying to provide a balance this game by both sharing my thoughts and trying to gather the thoughts of other players. I've been quite clear on my thoughts on Hyaach, blazinghand, furer/Palmar and Katina and if you need my opinion on any other player who you're finding suspicious yourself, just ask me. Otherwise, I will bring up players I'm finding suspicious and see what my town reads have to say about them. And I can point to you plenty of games where scum do stupid stuff too. See TL Mafia LI where VE claims DT with a scum check on Toad who claims Veteran. Both were scum. See BH this game, claiming SK. My problem with your defense of BH is that you seem so sure of him being 'probably vigilante' that I feel you have to have information that we don't. This means to me that you're either scum or a roleblocker (with a slight chance of irrational townie). Since you just claimed you're not the roleblocker, that leaves scum. I don't need to show you a game where vig claims Night 1 and wins. People like to claim, that doesn't mean that they're successful with them. And he didn't know the KP was going to be messed up before he claimed, so that didn't affect his claim at all. I don't think BH thought that much about his claim, just thought "hey let's claim vig since I have a KP role, yeah that sounds cool let's do it and see what happens!". I honestly think it's dumb as hell for scum to do that for reasons I've stated multiple times. He would have been under such insane scrutiny that there's no way he could have survived until LYLO, and if he did, he probably would have been lynched at that point in time. He wasn't going to win after that claim - we were either going to lynch him or scum was going to shoot him. Also, I'd like to hear your case on Katina, rather than have you ask other people what their opinion is again. If it's a really good case I might reconsider my vote. I posted my thoughts on Katina at the end of the night: [click] | ||
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On June 12 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote: I said I'm reading snarf's stupid history, but he always plays in PM games. His most recent non PM game is DF Mafia and that was 7 whole pages filter. Give me a second, jeez. I've spent all game trying to only be marginally helpful and now I have to be actually helpful and it sucks. I only played in one PM game and it sucked. I've been a mason twice though, if that's what you're actually referring to. | ||
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On June 12 2012 18:15 Shraft wrote: Stop calling BH anti-town. Right now, he is more fucking pro-town than any of us. The chance that BH is a fake-claiming mafia is slim, and our chances of winning are a lot higher with than without him. Let's kill this zelblade guy now. ##Vote zelblade The chance that he is SK fake-claiming is pretty slim too. His plan would have to have been to not night kill anyone else for the rest of the game or else be lynched. Until we actually know his motives how can we be sure that his case even has merit? | ||
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On June 07 2012 09:40 Shraft wrote: I'm not that suspicious of Navillus anymore. All of my problems with him came from one post that I thought was loaded with scumminess, but I haven't been able to notice anything scummy about his subsequent posts. I've made the mistake of tunneling a player based off of one really scummy post before, and I am not going to do it again. Additionally, we now know that Pandain had a town read on him. And here: On June 12 2012 08:02 Shraft wrote: I think Navillus or zelblade both make for fine lynch targets. Yet you haven't made it clear how you got from A to B. Care to fill us in? | ||
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On June 13 2012 03:00 Shraft wrote: @Snarfs It was this post that made my suspicion toward Navillus resurface: His argumentation here is akin to that of the mafia in Arkham Asylum. (A game where I belive youngminii was found out as scum because he focused a lot on killing the third party SK roles.) What's more concerning is that it doesn't seem to make any difference to him whether BH is mafia or SK, whereas to me, as town, whether he's SK or mafia means a huge deal. If he's mafia, it could be detrimental to us to not have him lynched today, but if he's an SK, I think that keeping him alive would increase our chances at winning, as even if he's roleblocked every night (which increases the chance of our potential RB/other power roles power not getting blocked) he'll still function just as any townie until we've caught a few scum (at which point we can probably just have him lynched anyway). I'd be fine with his post if he tried to argue that the risk of BH being mafia is too high (which I don't agree with) and that he'd rather just kill him than risk BH being mafia. What makes me suspicious is that he says that he doesn't care. The last part of his post also contains an appeal to emotion, which isn't always a scum tell, but it is certainly a bad argument on why we should lynch BH. Hmm, I don't see what you do here. To me, when he says that he's "not going to be the stupid townie that thought we could control or contain him", it seems like he's not willing to put town's interests in the hands of a known anti-town player. In blazinghand's plan, if we assume that he is SK, we would need to rely a lot on his ability to hit his targets correctly. I'd much rather take the game into my own hands than leave it in the hands of someone who doesn't even share a wincon with us. | ||
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I do admit that if he had a chance to win it would have been by providing us with scum so I'll assume he genuinely meant his case on zelblade. When I first skimmed through it though I got the impression it was mostly meta with some WIFOM and about one sentence related to how zelblade has actually been scummy this game. I'm going to have to reread it with slightly less bias later though. | ||
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The first one was the wishy washy post where he ends up voting blazinghand. BH and Artanis have discussed this already and I agree with them that there seemed to be quite a bit of cognitive dissonance between his thoughts and his vote. For reference, the post is here: [click] The second thing I noticed when reading zelblade was his strange insistence that claiming that there are 4 mafia in the game was a reason to lynch furerkip. Zelblade's reasoning wasn't that furer had scumslipped, but rather that furer had claimed that something was in the OP when it wasn't. This misrepresents what furer said though as he doesn't claim anywhere that it says in the OP that there are 4 mafia.: First he tries to push the idea that furer claimed that it listed 4 mafia in the OP even though that's not what ghost says. ghost claims that "It could be an extrapolation, or it could be a scumslip". I personally don't think that scum would ever blatantly lie and believe that furer was guessing the number of scum based on the number of roles available. I find it very hard to believe that anyone actually thought he was saying that it literally says in the OP that there were 4 max scum: On June 06 2012 22:49 zelblade wrote: Wait what? I took his word for it and didnt check the OP -_- I dont think that him claiming that there was 4 scum is scummy since its a somewhat plausible assumption and may be the norm where he plays, but him lying about it being in the op is just... Then, zelblade attempts to gain support from other players for a furer lynch. He hardly tries to pressure furer at all and is waiting for others to jump on the wagon first: On June 06 2012 22:52 zelblade wrote: I am actually willing to lynch furekip based on that alone. As said, there is no townie reasoning possible to lie about something like that. Sure scumslips are usually made by townies but I dont think that they would lie about their reasoning like this. The only problem with this is that it is so dumb as mafia too -_- So furekip why did you lie about it? He then continues to try and push furerkip for the next 3 days even though he has clearly disappeared from the game and would be perfect scum bait for a mislynch: On June 07 2012 17:50 zelblade wrote: Also I want to lynch furekip if he doesnt give a good explanation for lying about the mafia team numbers thing. On June 10 2012 11:13 zelblade wrote: Well at least this flip gives us quite a decent bit of info. Furekip and bh should be our next 2 lynches. Thoughts? | ||
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Hell, Shraft, you didn't even give your thoughts on him, you just said we should lynch the hell out of him then linked his filter and BH's case. So you agree 100% with BH's case and that's it? | ||
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On June 14 2012 08:39 ghost_403 wrote: I'm waiting to see what zelblade has to say for himself. Let's hypothesize for a second that he doesn't return to the thread for the remainder of the two day period. What would your course of action be? | ||
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On June 13 2012 18:16 Palmar wrote: You don't get to do that btw. Also, I need to read up on a few people. Looking forward to the results of this... | ||
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On June 15 2012 03:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote: 2. Point to me where I said that I lean slightly red on him in this post? I said he's a null read, and he was. On June 05 2012 07:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had a null read on VE's claim at first because of the fact that both Millers and veteran mafia players should claim miller in a game where the miller is self aware, this does slightly push the case in favor of a mafia VE, but it's still a weak case. | ||
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I think zelblade is grasping for straws with his case and we've nailed scum here. While I do find MrZentor suspicious this game, I always find him suspicious. I just read a quote from another game he's playing in and apparently he's been lynched by town in almost every game he's rolled town. I don't think that I would take the gamble on him at MYLO. That being said, I've seen MrZentor's abilities to drop some analysis. He needs to post some good shit soon. @Navillus: What makes MrZentor more scummy than any town game you've seen him play in? | ||
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Gonna give the thread a reread tonight/tomorrow morning when I have time before the deadline. | ||
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We were at MYLO yesterday and you had a red check on Palmar and you didn't even push for his lynch? Like, at all? You're saying that you would have rather played a hunch that zelblade was mafia because you were "greedy" and would have cost us the game were it not for a modkill... rather than either claim or push a Palmar lynch? Or push for a no lynch to get another check off? There's no way this claim is real, right? Like, no real detective would not claim at MYLO... or push their red check.. or push for a no lynch... There's no friggen way. If ghost is town after these shenanigans I will definitely eat blazinghand's hat. ##Vote ghost_403 @Artanis: On Navillus: I don't see how he could be a better lynch than ghost now. I definitely think that his vote on Hyaach while FOSing MrZentor was an awkward move, but I've seen townies do that many times as well. And I did notice that he backed off Palmar as you pointed out, but I would have to. Palmar is a great asset to towns and if it had turned out that he was a townie replacing in he no doubt would have been extremely helpful. I think that his vote on furerkip was genuine as there was no other wagon at the time. He only moved his vote after it was becoming apparent that furer was not going to be lynched (blazinghand and VE had both unvoted furer already). What interests me more than your vote on Navillus though, is that ghost practically just claimed scum and you've already almost dismissed the possibility that he's fake claiming. I'm curious how you can be so trusting of his claim? You say that you don't think this is something he would do as mafia, yet when I looked through his history previously the only scum game of his I found was Werewolves which was both a PM game and almost 4 months ago. The timing of his claim makes no sense from a town player's point of view, especially if he had a red check on Palmar going into day 4 as he claims. I'm really curious how you could justify a town detective not claiming/pushing a red check/pushing for a no lynch at mylo when there's a chance we're about to lose the game?? And then so quickly accept the explanation that he was just getting "greedy"... at MYLO... after not lynching scum for 3 days... he got greedy... And how are you so sure that MrZentor is town? The guy is capable of doing proper analysis as he's shown in the past, yet has contributed little but one-liners and has been on the wrong side of every lynch with very little reasoning. I have no clue whether he's town or mafia, yet you waltz in here at LYLO and proclaim him town and you and ghost are suddenly on the same side of a Navillus lynch and I'm definitely having second thoughts about my town read on you. | ||
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The only explanation making sense in my head right now is that ghost is scum. | ||
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On June 17 2012 19:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I can understand it to some degree. If he claims at that moment, there's a chance people won't believe him and that it's a mafia ploy to get people to not vote him, and as soon as he claims every night he'll either get roleblocked or he'll just get killed by mafia depending on if they still have their roleblocker. "Playing greedy" seems to be something town is doing a lot. See katina; we asked the remaining JK to claim but she didn't. I also don't think mafia would claim DT with the amount of blues that have died already. It just seems unlikely. It's not necessarily that he didn't claim. He didn't even push for a no lynch or push someone he claims to have had a red check on when we had to lynch scum or lose. Katina wasn't at MYLO with a red check on mafia while still voting another target... To clarify, you believe it's more unlikely that someone would fake-claim a blue when there's little chance of there being any more blues in the game than actually be a blue? Because I think that a time when noone thinks there are any blues left would be a perfect time to fake a claim. The odds of being counterclaimed have already decreased drastically and ghost has already shown us that he was considering the possibility of a counterclaim. It's not specifically one of these individual points that points me to Navillus, it's the combination of everything altogether that makes me believe he's scum. The lurking while telling other people not to lurk, the vote pattern, everything just smells like scum to me. It's part logic and part gut. Need I remind you of Shraft who also was suspicious of Navillus? Every vote so far has been based on bad claims (Pandain, Hyaach, Blazinghand) and now you want to do it again? Have you learned nothing from the past few claims? When it's too strange to be scum, it probably isn't scum. I'm still torn between whether you or Navillus is the last scum. I agree that I get a scummy vibe from him, but your trusting of ghost's claim combined with your reasoning for believing MrZentor is town have me confused. If I had to decide in the next 10 minutes I'd go with Navillus as it makes more sense over the entire game, but I don't. Artanis, I don't think I need to remind you that of those 3 claims, 2 of them were faked. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply by asking me if I've learned nothing. I look at each claim and the circumstances surrounding it separate from the other. You say he claimed scum WAAAAAAAAY too easily for my taste. I accept the explanation because I don't think Mafia would make such a claim with this kind of explanation. It doesn't make sense. My gut says to trust the claim, and if his claim is correct I'm talking to a mafia anyway so I'm not too worried about how you perceive me. I'm still trying to wrap my head around a scenario where a detective doesn't either push a red check or push for a no lynch at MYLO and I still think the odds of someone doing that are extremely low. And what do you mean it makes no sense for mafia? All he needs to do is ensure that he doesn't get lynched today or tomorrow and they've got the game won. It makes perfect sense to claim a blue role that is unverifiable. Hell, I've seen it done in newbie games in this exact scenario! I'll try and find the game I'm thinking of. Because of how he's played the game. All I can say is read his post history and tell me you don't get a feeling that he's town. I just can't imagine a mafia playing the way he played. Mafia wants to look town, he's made no effort to do that. And once again, I'm not too bothered by you not having a town read on me anymore since you're probably scum and all. I'm not even sure what to say to this. You're basically giving mafia in every game you play a free pass to not even attempt to contribute? | ||
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On June 18 2012 01:38 Snarfs wrote: I'll try and find the game I'm thinking of. Newbie Mini V | ||
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Was reading what you said, Artanis, and you're right, he'd have no reason to do this if it was both yourself and him or MrZentor and him as a team as they'd have the walk-over victory. It only makes sense if he wanted to bus his partner and have an easy victory on the last day. ##Unvote ##Vote Navillus | ||
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On June 18 2012 06:04 MrZentor wrote: Yay 25 more hours. Now I'm thinking artanis and ghost are mafia. Why would he bother fake-claiming if it was the two of them? | ||
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Thanks to the hosts  .First scum game and I was not kidding when I said it was way more stressful for me than town T_T. I kept looking back at things I was saying and kicking myself for saying them. Wish I could have done better, but I already feel like this experience will help my future scum play... that's kinda why I just wanted the game to end, time to move on and do better in the next one! Artanis, you were way too damn towny. Stop that! But I don't know why you guys convinced yourselves I wasn't scum based on my meta. I'd never played scum before... there was no meta to compare .Ghost properly calling out the fact that I'd asked people for previous games but never referenced them was one of those "Oh fuck" moments for me. Fortunately, noone else brought that up again... Hyaach, sorry for pushing your lynch when you'd done nothing scummy. I actually felt really bad T_T. I'm not cut out for scum life haha. Honestly, I spent way more time on this game than my posting reflects. Many times I'd spend a couple hours reading the thread and writing out a post, only to delete it and turn my laptop off because I didn't want to stick my head out. Rookie scum mistakes like that will be improved upon for next time and are my biggest takeaway. Anyways, fun game nonetheless. Thanks again wbg, HiroPro and ET. | ||
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On June 20 2012 07:11 VisceraEyes wrote: Thx guys, that was fun in spite of the inactivity issues. I apologize for forgetting to post my reads before dawn - honestly I thought I was going to be left alive so I didn't even think about it. This game is one I was trying really hard to come across as town because of my recent mislynches, and I think that in that I was amply successful. Thx Bugs and Hiro for hosting. Clearly both the scum team and BH found your play way too towny to let live. Great job with that, I was scared if we let you go another night you'd wreck us! | ||
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On June 20 2012 07:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Scum, why'd you never kill me? I was certain I was going to die the night Shraft died. Shraft was more onto Nav than you were and I came in and made a snap decision to kill him. Wasn't much more thought than that in there. | ||
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On June 20 2012 07:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Nah man I had it coming. It was this post... You didn't hold furer to this at all and when I got him lynched I was coming after YOU bro. To be fair, it's hard to hold someone to something when they don't even return to the thread. | ||
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On June 20 2012 09:50 Shraft wrote: GG everyone, and thanks WBG and HiroPro for hosting and co-hosting. Sad that the game was decided by Palmar being mod killed. I know from before that my scum hunting skills aren't very good, so this game I tried to focus more on looking town and reading other people's thoughts and researching their scum suspects. I'd appreciate pointers on my play, especially advice on how I can improve my scum hunting. You did quite well with scumhunting this game and if you read the scum QT we were even considering shooting you N1. Your read was dead on with the cognitive dissonance between Navillus' vote and his calling out of MrZentor - that was a really big mistake on his part... My biggest piece of advice would be to push those reads more, especially if you've got a pretty good thing going like on Nav. In fact, at one point I was asking Nav questions town should have been asking him. Like right here: On June 06 2012 11:47 Snarfs wrote: RE: Navillus: [...] Also, he both claims that pressure voting is ineffective when the person knows it's just a pressure vote AND he leaves his vote on hyaa as a pressure vote. Care to explain this contradiction? On June 06 2012 11:56 Navillus wrote: @Snarfs I think I wasn't clear on this, I will push for a Hyaach lynch if he continues to lurk or make posts that don't give real opinions after being called out specifically for that because that is scummy. Also on my posting style longer posts like what I've been writing are just the type of posts I make, I'd prefer to say too much and have someone like you be suspicious than say too little and miss something important, you can also check my meta, it's how I usually post. At this point, I would expect a town player to say something along the lines of: "Yea, I see there's other things going on in the thread so maybe I'll rethink my vote". Instead he continues to leave his vote on Hyaach. I was scared of following up this post because Nav still hadn't switched his vote. He was basically implying that over 30 hours into day 1 (or whatever it is), after the Pandain shenanigans and calling out blazinghand and everything else that happened, he was still convinced that Hyaach was the best vote. So yea, when you get a strong scum read on someone, don't be afraid to push them to explain further contradictions. As far as looking townie, hard for me to answer that one, but you didn't seem to be drawing much suspicion from anyone else until right near the end when everyone's under suspicion so I'd say you did pretty well there. | ||
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