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On June 15 2012 03:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
2. Point to me where I said that I lean slightly red on him in this post? I said he's a null read, and he was.
On June 05 2012 07:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I had a null read on VE's claim at first because of the fact that both Millers and veteran mafia players should claim miller in a game where the miller is self aware, this does slightly push the case in favor of a mafia VE, but it's still a weak case.
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But you're still saying that at first you had a null read on him and then when you compared length of posts you thought he was slightly more likely to be mafia than town, no?
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I think it's fairly obvious that Artanis has been pushing town objectives the entire game. He has been the most active town player and has consistently questioned peoples' motives. The only person who's tried harder to find scum may have been BH. If Artanis is still alive when there's only 1 scum left, that's when whoever's left needs to go back and figure out how the hell he's lived that long because I don't think scum would take the chance.
I think zelblade is grasping for straws with his case and we've nailed scum here.
While I do find MrZentor suspicious this game, I always find him suspicious. I just read a quote from another game he's playing in and apparently he's been lynched by town in almost every game he's rolled town. I don't think that I would take the gamble on him at MYLO.
That being said, I've seen MrZentor's abilities to drop some analysis. He needs to post some good shit soon.
@Navillus: What makes MrZentor more scummy than any town game you've seen him play in?
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I'll take it! haha seriously he shoulda been modkilled like night 1 anyways. Guess VE was right about that one 
Gonna give the thread a reread tonight/tomorrow morning when I have time before the deadline.
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Wait what? Ghost, are you serious?
We were at MYLO yesterday and you had a red check on Palmar and you didn't even push for his lynch? Like, at all?
You're saying that you would have rather played a hunch that zelblade was mafia because you were "greedy" and would have cost us the game were it not for a modkill... rather than either claim or push a Palmar lynch? Or push for a no lynch to get another check off?
There's no way this claim is real, right? Like, no real detective would not claim at MYLO... or push their red check.. or push for a no lynch... There's no friggen way.
If ghost is town after these shenanigans I will definitely eat blazinghand's hat.
##Vote ghost_403
@Artanis: On Navillus: I don't see how he could be a better lynch than ghost now. I definitely think that his vote on Hyaach while FOSing MrZentor was an awkward move, but I've seen townies do that many times as well. And I did notice that he backed off Palmar as you pointed out, but I would have to. Palmar is a great asset to towns and if it had turned out that he was a townie replacing in he no doubt would have been extremely helpful. I think that his vote on furerkip was genuine as there was no other wagon at the time. He only moved his vote after it was becoming apparent that furer was not going to be lynched (blazinghand and VE had both unvoted furer already).
What interests me more than your vote on Navillus though, is that ghost practically just claimed scum and you've already almost dismissed the possibility that he's fake claiming. I'm curious how you can be so trusting of his claim? You say that you don't think this is something he would do as mafia, yet when I looked through his history previously the only scum game of his I found was Werewolves which was both a PM game and almost 4 months ago. The timing of his claim makes no sense from a town player's point of view, especially if he had a red check on Palmar going into day 4 as he claims. I'm really curious how you could justify a town detective not claiming/pushing a red check/pushing for a no lynch at mylo when there's a chance we're about to lose the game?? And then so quickly accept the explanation that he was just getting "greedy"... at MYLO... after not lynching scum for 3 days... he got greedy...
And how are you so sure that MrZentor is town? The guy is capable of doing proper analysis as he's shown in the past, yet has contributed little but one-liners and has been on the wrong side of every lynch with very little reasoning. I have no clue whether he's town or mafia, yet you waltz in here at LYLO and proclaim him town and you and ghost are suddenly on the same side of a Navillus lynch and I'm definitely having second thoughts about my town read on you.
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I'm still thinking about this and I really can't see how a town player could be so cocky as a detective at MYLO to not think of either pushing their red check or pushing for a no lynch so they can get another check off before claiming.
The only explanation making sense in my head right now is that ghost is scum.
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On June 17 2012 19:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I can understand it to some degree. If he claims at that moment, there's a chance people won't believe him and that it's a mafia ploy to get people to not vote him, and as soon as he claims every night he'll either get roleblocked or he'll just get killed by mafia depending on if they still have their roleblocker. "Playing greedy" seems to be something town is doing a lot. See katina; we asked the remaining JK to claim but she didn't. I also don't think mafia would claim DT with the amount of blues that have died already. It just seems unlikely.
It's not necessarily that he didn't claim. He didn't even push for a no lynch or push someone he claims to have had a red check on when we had to lynch scum or lose.
Katina wasn't at MYLO with a red check on mafia while still voting another target...
To clarify, you believe it's more unlikely that someone would fake-claim a blue when there's little chance of there being any more blues in the game than actually be a blue? Because I think that a time when noone thinks there are any blues left would be a perfect time to fake a claim. The odds of being counterclaimed have already decreased drastically and ghost has already shown us that he was considering the possibility of a counterclaim.
It's not specifically one of these individual points that points me to Navillus, it's the combination of everything altogether that makes me believe he's scum. The lurking while telling other people not to lurk, the vote pattern, everything just smells like scum to me. It's part logic and part gut. Need I remind you of Shraft who also was suspicious of Navillus? Every vote so far has been based on bad claims (Pandain, Hyaach, Blazinghand) and now you want to do it again? Have you learned nothing from the past few claims? When it's too strange to be scum, it probably isn't scum.
I'm still torn between whether you or Navillus is the last scum. I agree that I get a scummy vibe from him, but your trusting of ghost's claim combined with your reasoning for believing MrZentor is town have me confused. If I had to decide in the next 10 minutes I'd go with Navillus as it makes more sense over the entire game, but I don't.
Artanis, I don't think I need to remind you that of those 3 claims, 2 of them were faked. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply by asking me if I've learned nothing. I look at each claim and the circumstances surrounding it separate from the other.
You say he claimed scum WAAAAAAAAY too easily for my taste. I accept the explanation because I don't think Mafia would make such a claim with this kind of explanation. It doesn't make sense. My gut says to trust the claim, and if his claim is correct I'm talking to a mafia anyway so I'm not too worried about how you perceive me.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around a scenario where a detective doesn't either push a red check or push for a no lynch at MYLO and I still think the odds of someone doing that are extremely low. And what do you mean it makes no sense for mafia? All he needs to do is ensure that he doesn't get lynched today or tomorrow and they've got the game won. It makes perfect sense to claim a blue role that is unverifiable. Hell, I've seen it done in newbie games in this exact scenario! I'll try and find the game I'm thinking of.
Because of how he's played the game. All I can say is read his post history and tell me you don't get a feeling that he's town. I just can't imagine a mafia playing the way he played. Mafia wants to look town, he's made no effort to do that. And once again, I'm not too bothered by you not having a town read on me anymore since you're probably scum and all.
I'm not even sure what to say to this. You're basically giving mafia in every game you play a free pass to not even attempt to contribute?
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On June 18 2012 01:38 Snarfs wrote:
I'll try and find the game I'm thinking of.
Newbie Mini V
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Well, assuming I'm right and ghost is fake-claiming, Nav must be his partner.
Was reading what you said, Artanis, and you're right, he'd have no reason to do this if it was both yourself and him or MrZentor and him as a team as they'd have the walk-over victory. It only makes sense if he wanted to bus his partner and have an easy victory on the last day.
##Unvote
##Vote Navillus
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On June 18 2012 06:04 MrZentor wrote:
Yay 25 more hours.
Now I'm thinking artanis and ghost are mafia.
Why would he bother fake-claiming if it was the two of them?
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Bah, sorry for not coming on at all yesterday. To be honest this game has just been much more stressful than I anticipated and I needed a 24 hour break to maintain my sanity.
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GG guys.
Thanks to the hosts  .
First scum game and I was not kidding when I said it was way more stressful for me than town T_T. I kept looking back at things I was saying and kicking myself for saying them. Wish I could have done better, but I already feel like this experience will help my future scum play... that's kinda why I just wanted the game to end, time to move on and do better in the next one!
Artanis, you were way too damn towny. Stop that! But I don't know why you guys convinced yourselves I wasn't scum based on my meta. I'd never played scum before... there was no meta to compare .
Ghost properly calling out the fact that I'd asked people for previous games but never referenced them was one of those "Oh fuck" moments for me. Fortunately, noone else brought that up again...
Hyaach, sorry for pushing your lynch when you'd done nothing scummy. I actually felt really bad T_T. I'm not cut out for scum life haha.
Honestly, I spent way more time on this game than my posting reflects. Many times I'd spend a couple hours reading the thread and writing out a post, only to delete it and turn my laptop off because I didn't want to stick my head out. Rookie scum mistakes like that will be improved upon for next time and are my biggest takeaway.
Anyways, fun game nonetheless. Thanks again wbg, HiroPro and ET.
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On June 20 2012 07:11 VisceraEyes wrote:
Thx guys, that was fun in spite of the inactivity issues. I apologize for forgetting to post my reads before dawn - honestly I thought I was going to be left alive so I didn't even think about it. This game is one I was trying really hard to come across as town because of my recent mislynches, and I think that in that I was amply successful.
Thx Bugs and Hiro for hosting.
Clearly both the scum team and BH found your play way too towny to let live. Great job with that, I was scared if we let you go another night you'd wreck us!
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Haha, I had a feeling I'd at least be on your list. I figured you'd keep a close eye on me to see if you could get revenge hehe.
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On June 20 2012 07:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Scum, why'd you never kill me? I was certain I was going to die the night Shraft died.
Shraft was more onto Nav than you were and I came in and made a snap decision to kill him. Wasn't much more thought than that in there.
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On June 20 2012 07:26 VisceraEyes wrote:Nah man I had it coming. It was this post... Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:54 Snarfs wrote:I think furer likes to talk a lot and he's going to have a damn hard time keeping this up if he's scum.
Seems like some people are writing him off as a newbie though, which I think is dangerous. He's mentioned that he's played elsewhere so he could be quite experienced. Like I said though, if he likes to play rash and talk a lot and he's scum, eventually he'll have to start contradicting himself so just keep close tabs on what he says.
As far as the mislynch policy: Seems like just a policy. Good to know that he believes this so we can hold him to this belief later on in the game.@VE, In one sentence you claim that: Town's aim needs to be lengthening the game, not shortening it. That's why we aim for scum every single lynch, because every scum lynch increases the number of days the game lasts. Yet you follow it up with this: Also I'm going to suggest we policy-lynch Katina if she doesn't prove her worth to town by providing us with some sort of content to be held accountable for if we are unable to find a suitable scummy candidate. Care to explain? Is Katina really that unhelpful as town?
@MrZentor: Your first post today is what I would call extremely 'safe'. While I don't expect the same self-voting Zentor as last time, I do expect someone who can get reactions out of people in order to help town. Please don't sacrifice that. You didn't hold furer to this at all and when I got him lynched I was coming after YOU bro.
To be fair, it's hard to hold someone to something when they don't even return to the thread.
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Naw, a guy not even being around isn't indicative of a change in posting behaviour. It's indicative of a loss of interest in the game.
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I have no doubt though that you would have had me lynched much sooner. That's why I shot you
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On June 20 2012 09:50 Shraft wrote:
GG everyone, and thanks WBG and HiroPro for hosting and co-hosting. Sad that the game was decided by Palmar being mod killed.
I know from before that my scum hunting skills aren't very good, so this game I tried to focus more on looking town and reading other people's thoughts and researching their scum suspects. I'd appreciate pointers on my play, especially advice on how I can improve my scum hunting.
You did quite well with scumhunting this game and if you read the scum QT we were even considering shooting you N1. Your read was dead on with the cognitive dissonance between Navillus' vote and his calling out of MrZentor - that was a really big mistake on his part... My biggest piece of advice would be to push those reads more, especially if you've got a pretty good thing going like on Nav. In fact, at one point I was asking Nav questions town should have been asking him. Like right here:
On June 06 2012 11:47 Snarfs wrote:
RE: Navillus: [...] Also, he both claims that pressure voting is ineffective when the person knows it's just a pressure vote AND he leaves his vote on hyaa as a pressure vote. Care to explain this contradiction?
On June 06 2012 11:56 Navillus wrote:
@Snarfs I think I wasn't clear on this, I will push for a Hyaach lynch if he continues to lurk or make posts that don't give real opinions after being called out specifically for that because that is scummy. Also on my posting style longer posts like what I've been writing are just the type of posts I make, I'd prefer to say too much and have someone like you be suspicious than say too little and miss something important, you can also check my meta, it's how I usually post.
At this point, I would expect a town player to say something along the lines of: "Yea, I see there's other things going on in the thread so maybe I'll rethink my vote". Instead he continues to leave his vote on Hyaach.
I was scared of following up this post because Nav still hadn't switched his vote. He was basically implying that over 30 hours into day 1 (or whatever it is), after the Pandain shenanigans and calling out blazinghand and everything else that happened, he was still convinced that Hyaach was the best vote.
So yea, when you get a strong scum read on someone, don't be afraid to push them to explain further contradictions.
As far as looking townie, hard for me to answer that one, but you didn't seem to be drawing much suspicion from anyone else until right near the end when everyone's under suspicion so I'd say you did pretty well there.
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As I said in the scum QT, so many people were calling for the town RB to claim, it left very few possible candidates left and it should have been quite obvious at that point Katina was the town RB. Everyone else pretty much outed her but I didn't really put that together until after we killed her.
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EPT
