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First of all..can someone tell me why the lynch was on "either MZ or Palmar"?
Both Palmar and Grey had 2 votes (before I voted BB) if I recall correctly, and MZ only had like 3 votes at a time (which is not a "oh oh he's definitely the lynch today" amount)
@Wiggles: I was suspicious of Palmar initially because of him trying to shift attention towards MZ when I presented my Grey case.
However after seeing him play I see he's playing with confidence and arrogance. I know he can play pretty good as scum, like in Liar Game, so I'm not crossing him as town yet, but I don't think lynching him right now (or yesterday) is a good idea.
Wiggles you have a lot to contribute since you've been missing, specially about the cases on Grey, VE and Radfield that were posted last day
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On June 12 2012 11:01 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:53 gonzaw wrote:
First of all..can someone tell me why the lynch was on "either MZ or Palmar"?
Both Palmar and Grey had 2 votes (before I voted BB) if I recall correctly, and MZ only had like 3 votes at a time (which is not a "oh oh he's definitely the lynch today" amount)
@Wiggles: I was suspicious of Palmar initially because of him trying to shift attention towards MZ when I presented my Grey case.
However after seeing him play I see he's playing with confidence and arrogance. I know he can play pretty good as scum, like in Liar Game, so I'm not crossing him as town yet, but I don't think lynching him right now (or yesterday) is a good idea.
Wiggles you have a lot to contribute since you've been missing, specially about the cases on Grey, VE and Radfield that were posted last day I said it was between Palmar and MZ because it looked like it ended up as 4-3, and then everyone else having only 1 vote on them. I read through pretty quickly, so I might not have paid enough attention to how the vote developed. I just saw three people single-voted and went through their filters to see what I thought and look for people avoiding being responsible for the lynch or not. I have a bunch of stuff to catch up on, so would you mind linking me to the specific cases? I know you made the greymist one, and hesmyrr made the VE one, who started the one on VE again?
You answered your own question.
Sorry I'm too lazy right now to reread the thread looking for them.
But chaoser and I posted about Greymist
Hesmyrr posted about VE
VE and MZ posted about Radfield
Just check their filters (and of course read the thread in it's completion)
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On June 12 2012 11:33 BrownBear wrote:Still figuring that one out. I will post when I have a clearer picture. There isn't really a time crunch at the moment, so I hope you don't mind if I take my time during the night cycle and read carefully.
You don't go lurking on me
Fine, you have all the time in the world (until night ends) to thoroughly reread the thread and filters to figure out what's going on, but you can still chime in on discussions and post your "temporal" thoughts to show you are active and care about the game.
I still wonder why you didn't even try to find scum yesterday. So you read the thread, found out Palmar was a "nuisance and cancer to town" and decided to tunnel him for the rest of the day, all the while you ignored everything else being discussed...which you know...was about actually trying to catch scum
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Hmm...I'm leaning on BrownBear-Wiggles-Radfield 2 scum-SK team for now.
I don't like that post of yours Wiggles, I dunno...seems your reasons for thinking chaoser is scum are kind of weak.
But well, if I'm still alive on D2 I'll reanalyze the thread, hey! Maybe you are right about chaoser who knows?
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On June 13 2012 03:30 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 02:55 gonzaw wrote:
Hmm...I'm leaning on BrownBear-Wiggles-Radfield 2 scum-SK team for now.
I don't like that post of yours Wiggles, I dunno...seems your reasons for thinking chaoser is scum are kind of weak.
But well, if I'm still alive on D2 I'll reanalyze the thread, hey! Maybe you are right about chaoser who knows? What about them are weak? If you'd like me to explain in more detail or go over something in a different way I can. Just saying they're weak doesn't really help me if you don't think he's scum or the case is bad.
On June 13 2012 02:31 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
...
Between MZ and Palmar, I would have truthfully voted for MZ. Out of other people, I would have voted Chaoser.
The reasons for this are that he's done about three things that make him look off to me.
First, he did that weird thing with the RNG. I have no idea how that was supposed to work though, because RNG doesn't work with just someone posting a number and saying that's who we're lynching. But, after not enough people supported him, and I called him out on it, he says that it was for pressure and to see how Ace reacted. That sounds silly though, because the pressure would always be weak, and Ace didn't back off RNG but Chaoser still pushed him for it. Like I said, false pressure.
This is inherently weak because it relates to the RNG bits from earlier on. chaoser could have easily done that as town or scum.
Second, I don't understand his initial case on Grey at all. I don't know what he means by "you show no suspicion to the usage of terms", but I guess he's saying that he's not suspicious of different names and that makes him scummy? But this is an iGrok game. I lost Sleeper Cell I because I lynched a guy for having a green bolded name when no one else did. I learned my lesson, and I know iGrok has done similar things in lots of his games since then with regards to flavour and role name, because flavour hunting is just stupid. So, it makes sense for GreY not to necessarily question that they have different names, which makes Chaoser's accusation weird and off-base.
This seems weak as well. You find chaoser suspicious because he found Grey's reaction to my "joke" suspicious, only based on a game you (but not chaoser) played (and he would have no way to know that).
Then he calls out GreY for wanting to lynch me and not MZ. The thing is though, there's nothing stopping GreY from thinking I made a bad post even if MZ made a worse post, so that's not really a valid for saying he's scum. Just because something is worse than something else doesn't mean that other thing can't still be bad (On a side note, I don't think my post was bad, this is from GreY's PoV :p). So again, I don't like Chaoser's reasoning for voting GreY.
This may be true or not, but doesn't seem too strong either.
Third, Chaoser didn't change his vote from GreY to MZ. There wasn't enough support for the GreY lynch it seemed, and the votes between Palmar and MZ were very close. Chaoser said he'd prefer an MZ lynch after a GreY lynch, and that he thought Palmar was playing well. However, he never ended up changing his vote to ensure someone he thought was scummy would get lynched instead of someone he thought was playing well. That stinks.
Well..MZ did flip town. chaoser not voting someone that flipped town would be better considering the circumstances.
I do find that a little bit odd, but he said he prefered a Grey lynch rather than a MZ one, and I was voting Grey at that time as well (while MZ only had like 3 votes on him), so at that time him keeping his vote on Grey isn't alignment telling.
Yes, him not changing his vote to MZ later seems weird, because he said MZ was his 2nd lynch.
But all in all your reasons for thinking chaoser is scum seem weak to me.
What about his interactions with other players? What about his behaviour and aggressiveness? Do you think he's scum because of them as well?
But meh.
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Actually scratch that list I made (it's pointless to make a "whole scum team" list by now).
Also because I'm still having doubts about Grey :/
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lol Ace
Can't believe he acts "retarded" (figure of speech) each game as town yet gets shot on N1.
Okay, like I promised I'll try to reread the thread and reanalyze my reads.
For now I still think Wiggles and BB are suspicious, and Radfield so so.
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On June 13 2012 10:49 Palmar wrote:
damn, I was all ready to lynch ace, guess I'll have to lynch intelligently now.
##Vote gonzaw
I think you're scum bro, what do you think about that?
also I told you, radfield is doubleconfirmed town.
I think you are being an arrogant prick
...or you are just being normal Palmar.
If you think I'm scum for some specific reason then post it, if not I'm ignoring you.
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@Greymist:
I don't like how you are just going around asking people questions and creating doubt on them.
Like, you quote Hesmyrr and cast doubt on him, but then you quote chaoser and cast doubt on him. What's your motivation for that? Do you really think any of them can be scum or are you just trying to blend in?
What are your suspicions right now? (before you "go back and reread carefully" and not show up for 10 hours, just tell me what you think right now)
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EBWOP:
Well, the "casting doubt" thing may not correspond to your chaoser post, but the "blend in" part does
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Okay, what do you think of Wiggles and BrownBear? (I don't think you ever mentioned your thoughts on BB yet)
Damn this game is deserted, before the game started I would have expected a war or something going on by now, with cases being thrown and posts being dissected and people shouting "OBJECTION!!" and then coming up with a new case that finally catches the right scum or something.
Clearly I was expecting too much from it
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Okay, off to reread the thread!
(I think it will be the 1st time I'll ever reread a thread since it's beginning and not just read filters, I'm so excited!)
Up to page 11, and I already have new info and revelations :O :O :O
This is fun.
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On June 12 2012 11:33 BrownBear wrote:Still figuring that one out. I will post when I have a clearer picture. There isn't really a time crunch at the moment, so I hope you don't mind if I take my time during the night cycle and read carefully.
BrownBear, before doing anything....do you have the "clearer picture" yet?
You promised to "take your time during the night cycle and read carefully"...I assumed you had done that in the night cycle, right?
What did you conclude by then?
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Okay, finished reading the thread.
Yeah I recommend you guys doing it. Before doing it I was suspicious of some people, but after reading it I remember why I thought they were town in the first place and reassures me that they are town (or at least very good SK).
It also made me reconsider my stance on BrownBear.
When I started reading the thread, I started thinking BB was scum. Hell I even have a case made against him.
Like, up until he made his 1st case against Palmar I already had a case made against him and thought he was scum.
...however, he has done some things that made me doubt it.
For instance, his rage and frustration against Palmar seemed kind of genuine at points; some of his posts and answers (to one of my SK questions and stuff for instance) seemed genuine as well and he seemed to post without hesitation or fear by that point. The tone of his posts from that point onward made me rethink my stance on him as well.
Another thing that made me very wary was him backing off Palmar. I couldn't see any scum motivation for him to do that. Like, he already had his target set if he was scum...why back off by saying he was angry at him and now Palmar doesn't seem scummy enough?
I couldn't find scum motivation for that, which again dishearted me since I had figured out he was scum >_>
I'll keep an eye out for him, but those things I read later in the thread made me doubt my read on him.
However, I found an obvious scum I can't believe we (or at least I) missed earlier:
Hesmyrr
In my next post I'll say why I think we should lynch him today.
I still find Wiggles suspicious, but I'm more confident in my Hesmyrr read right now, and to be honest, after Wiggles play on Liar Game, I don't really know if this is his town play or scum play.
I'd be willing to bet he's scum (or SK), but I don't want to divide town with too much discussions and lynch candidates so I'll try to focus on Hesmyrr.
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Why I think Hesmyrr is scum
First of all, he's been absent almost all game. The first time he showed up was in freaking page 10.
On June 11 2012 07:58 Hesmyrr wrote:RNG is very bad. I actually think the strategy do not even fit profile for townie; one signs up for a game in order to find a scum, not let some uncontrollable factor dictate the game for them. Moreover, it is even worse for this setup because there are only two scums (I do not count Iri Flina b/c she and mafia don't know others identity thus cannot influence the town to save each other). Therefore when someone genuinely discuss RNG it is anti-town move. Of course, I put off some players as null tells because there are townie justifications for doing so like misguided attempt to promote discussion, or a bait. Still there are some interesting suspects to be had, the strongest one being VisceraEyes. He have several scummy behaviour, the most blatant one being his lack of concrete opinion about RNG. This post is terrible, I can't even tell whether he supports or hates RNG. It looks like VE favours RNG plan since he says "the chances aren't bad for hitting scum randomly", but also tries to weaken the statement with his last sentence and usage of "in theory". But then he agrees with BrownBear that he've "never liked the idea...it always stinks of scum" thereafter. Okay, I could have misunderstood the previous post. Until when he pops in next he is in support of Palmar's RNG website! What happened? Then he wrote this which was exactly what I was waiting for since the RNG debate started. I actually waited a bit before posting to see what opinions others had. What I specifically wanted to look for was the post that encouraged discussion about way to perform RNG, because frankly it is nothing but a dead-end a.k.a. waste of time. The mafia would want to keep the town discuss about RNG as much as possible. Last paragraph of VisceraEyes tries to do that exactly. Note that even as a suggestion it makes little sense; like GreYMisT pointed it out, the suggestion negates out the only benefit RNG vote offers compared to actual analysis- he should know that, having said in his own words, "In theory, removing scum's ability to influence the lynch by agreeing as a town to lynch by RNG". Can I find any townie motivation for his behaviour up til now? Hell no. ##Vote: VisceraEyesEveryone should note that same attempt to misdirect focus of town discussion has been made by GreYMisT two times. I actually haven't read the case on him yet but I will be keeping very close eye on him. As a side note, chaoser seem pretty adamant on using RNG vote. Can anyone tell me if he held similar position in previous game?
This is a bad case on VE in my opinion. Why? Because it only takes the RNG bits into account.
Like I said, discussion about the RNG bit is not alignment telling, specially in the context of the thread (everybody was talking about it).
More over, VE's stance on RNG wasn't scummy, because VE seemed to genuinely try to contribute in that manner with his thoughts, even if they were wrong or "stupid" or "wishy-washy":
That's his sole reason for voting VE, yet he doesn't take anything about his most recent behaviour into account.
Does he think VE's attitude makes him scum? I don't know
Does he think VE wanting Radfield dead makes him scum? I don't know
He just focuses on the RNG deal (which is not alignment telling of VE) and nothing else. That raises a red flag for me
The's also wishy-washy about Grey and says he'll "be keeping very close eye on him", and says he didn't actually read the case on him...
He basically never mentions Grey again, nor the case against him. Nothing.
Anyways, at least he "sparked some discussion" though, and he could have easily reread the thread or something to change his mind, or discuss it with other people, etc.
Except he goes lurking for 9 freaking pages.
On page 19 he posts:
On June 12 2012 05:48 Hesmyrr wrote:Excuse me, could you clarify what you have meant by Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:17 BrownBear wrote:
The chief person driving the lynch appears to be MZ himself.
This is an absolute joke of a post.
The first thing he thought of posting after his long absence was a pointless question.
He doesn't explain why he was absent, he doesn't explain if he changed his mind about VE or not (if he was legitimately absent). He doesn't explain what his new thoughts and opinions are, or if he even cares about forming them (like the usual "I'm gonna read the thread now to figure out what's going on" posts).
Nothing, just some garbage post that the only purpose it makes it make it seem Hesmyrr is part of the discussion when he's now and trying to blend in.
On June 12 2012 07:07 Hesmyrr wrote:Show nested quote +Hesmyrr, you pushed VE, you're obviously around as you posted an hour ago, yet you are not contributing at all to the lynch. Do you still think VE is the best lynch? Is anyone else on your radar? Pitch in. I was actually waiting for you to post the analysis regarding VE, since I couldn't find concrete argument to merit analysis post yet. Currently I find MZ lynch to be better than that of Palmar but I am not going to get stuck on black-white thinking; the fact that GreYMisT+VE have voted him is cause for concern which is why I am reserving my judgment until the last moment. Personally the interactions happened between VisceraEyes and you are making me extremely wary.
He only posted this when called out.
It's just a defensive post to somewhat explain why he didn't follow through with his case on VE.
He also says "I was actually waiting for you to post the analysis regarding VE, since I couldn't find concrete argument to merit analysis post yet"
How was he expecting to do that? By lurking the game away until Radfield posted his thoughts on VE?
Why didn't he actively try to get Radfield's thoughts on VE? (you know, with a simple question perhaps?)
Why didn't he actually follow up on his case on VE, or reanalyze him and see if he still finds him scummy?
He barely mentions MZ and Palmar, without giving any opinion on them. He finds Grey and VE suspicious (them voting MZ is a "cause of concern") but he never states why.
Is it because of that post he made 9 pages back? Does he still find Grey suspicious because of that small reason that Grey was diverting attention or something?
He doesn't say, and doesn't care.
On June 12 2012 07:12 Hesmyrr wrote:
Oh also if someone is going to die today it's either going to be VisceraEyes or Meapak_Ziphh. With Radfield around and what I have seen of him so far I'll be shocked if he votes for Palmar.
Useless post to just make a summary of what's happening or will happen.
Yet he doesn't even try to form an opinion on it.
I don't think he ever said what he thought of MZ himself, or even discussed about the lynch
On June 12 2012 07:33 Hesmyrr wrote:I actually wanted to let the conversation play out longer and see if it further justifies my doubts, but since I already wrote about VisceraEyes - Radfield connection I'll try my best to explain why I feel bad about these two, which started from here. His first three paragraphs reveal he feels wish-washy about MZ and I found it suspect how he was being conservative with his vote even at that situation, not voting for his current biggest scum-read. The tone of post is such that it makes him open for voting both, like Radfield will post his case and will let himself be "persuaded" by VisceraEyes so I wanted to gauge strength of the argument. Then VisceraEyes started picking up bunch of freebie townie points by talking about it with him. I guess I just didn't see reason Radfield would refrain posting his analysis at this critical juncture. He did fix most of the problems I had with him at time of this posting so I'll see how his argument turns out and determine whether to stick with VE depending on situation. I do have to leave for moment but I will be back in order to change my vote if needed.
He comes up with a random accusation about Rad+VE, yet actually he doesn't seem to make any conclusion whatsoever.
Does he really think Rad and VE are scumbuddies? Or just VE? Or not? Does he think any of them are scum?
He talks about how Rad is wishy-washy about MZ....but what does he think about MZ?
He doesn't say. This post is filler that just tried to cast doubt on Rad (or VE) and just so he had something to post, failed to come to any conclusion and failed to even address anything that has been happening in the thread at all.
Also notice how he says things like "I was waiting for you (rad) to make an analysis" or "I actually wanted to let the conversation play out longer".
He's giving excuses on why he hasn't posted yet. He's saying he hasn't posted yet because he's analyzing everything and waiting for the right people to do the right things by their own; yet again he gains no conclusions from it and doesn't do anything to fix it later.
I'll ignore his next post since again the same things repeat again and again
Of course, he's been absent ever since, and failed to contribute anything at all since his VE "case" freaking 12 pages ago.
##Vote: Hesmyrr
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EBWOP:
Nothing, just some garbage post that the only purpose it makes it make it seem Hesmyrr is part of the discussion when he's not and trying to blend in.
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I think Radfield is town.
He was one of those that I was suspicious from at first, but after reading through the thread I stopped being suspicious any longer.
I think he's town mostly because of his activity when he's around, the way he seems to care what's going on, how he pressures people, ask them questions, and just generally caring what happens to town (the opposite of what Hesmyrr has done).
I doubt he's scum because of that, but I'm not as sure of him as of chaoser or you being town for instance. Yet I don't want him lynched for now, not before Hesmyrr and Wiggles.
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Well... there's that "If Radfield is alive by D2 he's mafia" thing though >_>
And the fact that if he was town, there would basically be no drawbacks for scum to shoot him instead of Ace <_<
And the fact that every time Ace is shot as town on N1 is because he's making sense or playing well (like in Liar Game), and he could have been on to something by voting Rad today >_>
Hmm, I wonder how much deep we can read into the night actions.
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I still have no fucking idea who the SK could be though or how to even look for him, but meh I guess we can start looking for him once we lynch both scum.
I mean, he doesn't have KP basically (I'm sure he'll save his only KP until end-game, like scum did in the Liar Game), so he's basically harmless to us right now.
Also he can buffer scum's hits at night.
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I found myself thinking Grey was more likely town as I read the thread (for instance I couldn't see his "Ace vote gambit" thing from a scum perspective, whether he legitimately voted for Ace or planned the gambit since the beginning), but there were some off bits from him that still made me a little bit suspicious of him.
I'd leave him be for today though.
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EPT
