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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss.
If this is an actual accusation, as in you're willing to vote for me day 1, you better do a hell of a lot better than that. You're essentially saying that you see me as town, but not super duper town(24 hours into the game), so therefore you see me as scum.
If that is your actual argument, and you are willing to follow that through to a lynch, then I don't know what to say to you. There is obviously no rebuttal by me other than just ignoring you and continuing playing.
I'd like you to state in detail why you think I am scum.
I would also like you to state in detail why you picked framer, and what specifically swayed your opinion.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hmm, for some reason I thought the tracker was 2-shot, but that is not the case. That makes tracker a better role.
However, anyone afraid of the roleblocker wasn't really looking at the roles.
Innocent Child: Cannot be roleblocked
1-shot Cop: Basically cannot be roleblocked, since once he claims he no longer has any abilities
Medic: Should never claim, and is extremely difficult to roleblock. Even if he is roleblocked, he still serves his purpose of preventing mafia from shooting indiscriminately.
Vigilante: Doesn't need to claim until both shots are fired, at which point he can no longer be roleblocked.
Tracker: Only role that needs to fear the roleblocker, but fortunately this role is made much stronger by having a roleblocker in the game(since anyone roleblocked is informed). Tracker can find mafia either by tracking someone to a kill, or by tracking someone to a roleblocker. Very good combo for us, and obviously the tracker isn't going to claim until he is sure someone is scum.
Not to mention that having a roleblocker means any cops and trackers know they can trust their results, and we know we can trust their results once they die.
It's very important that people claim if they are roleblocked, as then our tracker(if we have one) always knows who the roleblocker visited.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Aha! Sbrubbles must be mafia!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check.
Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:27 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:13 Radfield wrote:
I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check.
Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum. No time to respond to me but you have time to defend your buddy it seems?
On May 31 2012 07:36 Radfield wrote:
I have time, but it is limited. I want to spend it filtering. How bout if I fail to do anything constructive then you can come at me for being scummy. I'll tell you what, you form nice coherent arguments you want me to respond to, and I will respond.
On June 01 2012 03:33 wherebugsgo wrote:
Let's kill Toad and Kurumi.
Kurumi's meta is troll as town and play serious as scum. Obviously that makes him scum this game.
Toad is playing too carefully to be town. He has elements of his normal self centered-ness but usually he at least calls people out. Instead he seems to be worried he'll get called out for "not caring" like I was, when if he was town he'd probably not go that far.
Agreed, Toad is acting a bit strange, and Kurumi is off the wall sure I am scum 24 hours into the game, simply because he disagrees with me.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:55 Kurumi wrote:
Radfield seemed to care too much about Town picking Roleblocker. He was all on guns to push it through, while supplying his argument with pure crap, like that we will be able to trust every check with a Roleblocker, which is obviously false. Yes, Roleblocker is the best role for scum, Radfield tried to sway the opinion of the people saying that Roleblocker will grant US best roles, which is not the case. Vigilante? Pfff. Doctor? Yeah, really. Child? As I said, it takes an insane man to pick that role. Tracker is the best role out there. One-time Cop sucks, but he CAN'T FAIL like Vigilante can.
Also his argument that "if we make it public that we are picking roleblocker it makes mafia pick those roles!"
and then "it doesn't matter if we make it public, they will pick same roles anyway" It was fishing for votes so they could pick good roles. RB is unlimited use and can be used actively and works versus every role.
@WBG
Obviously. Actually, my real scum meta is that I don't troll and try to lay down (I did troll a bit in my last scum game, though) I didn't troll in some games too.
So yeah, thanks for the finger point, now what?
Correct, if we knew a roleblocker was in the mix, our trackers and cops would be able to trust every check. In addition, we can trust every check 100% from confirmed cops and trackers(ie dead cops and trackers). Obviously I was never stating that we can trust every claim only that every confirmed check is 100%. Unlike now, where every confirmed check is pretty much garbage.
In a mini-game setup with no medics, mafia have basically no need at all for a roleblocker, because they simply shoot whomever they think is blue. It's a simple concept Kurumi, I'm not sure why you're struggling with it. Additionally, we only have 1 role that even has to worry about being roleblocked, because all our other claiming roles are 1 or 2 shot.
I would argue that framer is far and away the best role for mafia in this setup as it immediately makes two of our roles next to useless. Whereas roleblocker only has the potential to significantly hinder a tracker.
You're argument for me being scum is basically that you disagree with me. If there is more than that then please let me know.
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 05:05 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:53 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other. No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS. Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it. Besides, THINK. Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE? Kurumi this is part of the reason I didn't buy into your argument that framer is the weakest for mafia under roleblocker. Let's say mafia has roleblocker and town knows it, and gave town a cop. Someone day 3 (so, 8 people left) says "I am the one-shot cop, I investigated X and X is town". No one counterclaims. (If anyone does then it's a 1 for 1 trade which is fine). Is there any reason to then question that check? The same scenario can be drawn up for tracker, which would only be different in that there would be more info but it would be less indicative of alignment (not of the tracker but of those he checked). This thinking is why I voted roleblocker, and why I'm surprised so many people went with framer (unless all the framer votes are mafia fakes).
No, mafia know what roles are in the game, and presumably can fake claim a role which does not exist(therefore not getting counter-claimed). However, once a single blue role flips, our second REAL blue role will counter claim the cop, so the mafia will get busted eventually, just not right away.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 05:13 Sbrubbles wrote:
@Radfield, I was thinking about this before my vote. If they knew we were going to get medic, they'd want a roleblocker (to prevent town going into follow-the-confirmed-townie mode), but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. Them knowing the we picked roleblocker doesn't make it that they'd give us a medic. Tracker/vig or tracker/cop are perfectly reasonable combinations. A Roleblocker is essencially a second "blue snipe" for them, because they'll have a really good idea of if they got their block right. This about this: If cop doesn't claim day 2 they'll know they got their N1 block right. If a tracker claims but isn't convincing, they can do as I said above. If they gave us vig, then 1 kill in the night means they blocked correctly and would eliminate the vig the following night.
My thinking is that tracker/vig or tracker/cop vs a roleblocker is really unbalanced in favor of town, so if they wanted to give us that, more power to them. I hadn't considered them being able to realize if they'd successfully blocked a cop or vig, but that's a good point, and does give the roleblocker role more potency.
Either way, us landing 5-5 right now on Framer vs Roleblocker is fantastic as it has the potential to basically give us a list-check later on down the line.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hiropro, was it obvious to you yesterday that the vote was between framer and roleblocker?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
nvm, just reread your post.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hiropro, if you were mafia, what roles would you give town?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm not sure I like a Kurumi lynch today. I agree with bugs that his town meta is troll vs a scum meta of serious, but his accusation of me seems genuine. His whole case is based on him disagreeing with my opinions, and it would be really strange for a scum player to come that hard out of the gate in an accusation based solely upon feeling framer is a better pick than RB. I just don't think scum would have that kind of conviction, or base a case on it. I think the reason he is playing serious right now is because he saw something in my play that made him jump, and he followed it through.
I'm not completely against a hiropro lynch right now, though I need to reread his filter. He spent almost all of day 0 discussing the poisons, and a proportionally small amount talking about the roles. His reasoning for picking gf does seem legit, but that doesn't clear him in my eyes.
The problem right now is there was a lot for scum to discuss on Day 0, and a lot for them to potentially contribute to town, without actually helping town all that much.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Sloosh might actually be a decent lynch for today. Timid demeanor, not stepping on any toes, 'helpful' posts
Sloosh, you keep asking for other peoples opinions, but what are YOUR opinions? Radfield, Kurumi, risk.nuke, sbrubbles? Thoughs on those players?
On June 01 2012 08:54 slOosh wrote:
Anyways, Hiro's GF vote is fine. His explanation shows that he thought it through (false positives? I didn't even consider that), makes sense in the context of not knowing what role might be picked, and furthermore it is something that knowingly invites attention on himself which he is handling fine.
I disagree that hiropro's gf vote is 'fine'. While I agree that his gf pick has reasoning, it still doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of our day 1 discussion. There was almost no discussion of gf, and hiropro certainly made no attempt to sway any other players to vote for it. I'm not saying that makes his scum, but he certainly gets no credit for it either. The fact that he is the only gf player, when scum put themselves at risk by doing anything but 1-1-1, is very noteworthy. I haven't quite wrapped my mind around what it means if scum voted 2-1 though, and what we can possibly glean from that.
I do agree that we need more from risk.nuke though, but that's obvious at this point.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
What do people think about sbrubbles right now? I'd like to look more into him when I have time, as his most recent post is tickling my scum senses.
I'm considering voting zephirdd though. Anyone else willing to vote Z-man?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:1. Toad says hiro votin GF is incredible scummy 2. Rad posts: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:08 Radfield wrote:
[...]
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
3. ... 4. Nothing? What was your result of filterting him? That statement I quoted sounds really strong and yet I'm the only one voting hiro when noone has disagreed with it except for hiro? Is there a reason for that?
On June 01 2012 19:26 Radfield wrote:
I'm not completely against a hiropro lynch right now, though I need to reread his filter. He spent almost all of day 0 discussing the poisons, and a proportionally small amount talking about the roles. His reasoning for picking gf does seem legit, but that doesn't clear him in my eyes.
The problem right now is there was a lot for scum to discuss on Day 0, and a lot for them to potentially contribute to town, without actually helping town all that much.
Fact is Toad, I'm not really sure on HiroPro. I had him down as looking ok and contributing, albeit tentatively. Then he was shown to be the only gf candidate, but has managed to do it with pretty good reasoning. I was considering pushing him just to see if the lynch was derailed or pushed through, and adjust accordingly, but didn't really have the time to do it properly.
I also really want to lynch him just to see his flip, and that's kind of a bad state of mind. I still need to read his filter thoroughly though.
On June 02 2012 02:49 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +Of course I would also vote Zephirdd (and probably will unless we need a 6th/7th vote somewhere else - avoiding no lynch is the top priority) - it's not just that he's been vacillating, it's that it feels like he's been doing it to see if anyone he pushes will get momentum in the town. He's playing it pretty out in the open as well (owning up to it with his last "I change my mind too much" post) which is brazen but probably the correct play if he's scum. What do you expect me to do as town? Just let people think I'm scum or something? I changed my mind too fast; there is all I can say about it. You just played(or rather, watched) a game where I was scum(or rather, had a scum mindset). Let me show you the biggest difference between me and my play on PYP  I am being sincere. Sorry, but I wouldn't even consider changing my mind as scum, no matter what. I'd stick to what I said at first and try to create the most chaos I could. Get off me; pushing me is the worst move you can do atm.
This post actually strikes me as quite genuine and townish. I'm not sure I like a Zephirdd lynch anymore.
After re-reading Sbrubbles' filter, he doesn't really look scummy.
On June 02 2012 05:57 prplhz wrote:
I hope Radfield has some more time soon. Everybody else needs to start talking about the lynch too. risk.nuke is European so I think it's very weird that he hasn't said much about the lynch yet with us approaching deadline like this. It's almost 11PM in Europe.
I will have time, particularly saturday and sunday. It won't help us much for our lynch today, but I'm not really much of a Day 1 guy anyways. People always look for me to lead on Day 1, but I never really have much but a handful of town reads.... unless I'm scum, when I consistently lead Day 1 lynches 
I will be around for the lynch and deadline, and right now am probably willing to vote Hiropro, but I want to filter him 1 more time. I need to make some dinner right now though.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:52 slOosh wrote:
Is that the sole reason why you think Hiro is a good lynch candidate - the GF vote? You do realize 5/12 players did not encrypt their votes, making voting analysis really weak? It's possible that mafia chose to send some to encrypt and others to bs after they received the vote tallies - or maybe they all encrypted or maybe none did.
Why is Hiro voting GF an exclusively scummy thing to do and not something that a townie would do?
Which 5 sloosh?
At the very least, me and Toad were obviously voting roleblocker, and had we claimed anything but it would be very strange.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:
Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol
Come on now Toad... you know better than that. You CANNOT draw connections between players like that when their alignments are unknown.
That's actually a bit concerning.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:58 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:50 Zephirdd wrote:
@prplhz because it's possible I will be away during the deadline and I don't want to be without a vote. I weighted what I know so far and I thought HiroPiro would be the vote I want to have at the deadline.
Also, don't use the "that's not something mafia would do" reasoning. I've learned that from my last few games. I'm not going to use it forever, but right now it looks like something mafia wont do so I don't want to lynch him today. If he continues to do weird stuff that could be interpreted as scummy, then I'm going to put more focus on him. You are saying that someone put an argument out there that scum would do this and that, and then when somebody does exactly this, you say that he's scum? That seems too weird that scum would put themselves in a position like this unless there was a huge gain, what huge gain do you think this is? I'm now going to postulate that HiroPro isn't scum and that scum voted 2-1. Why do you think that's not likely? The vote was going to be split anyway and there were tons of people who didn't even encrypt so we can't verify what they did, HiroPro not only encrypted his vote and voted very early, he decided to vote for something that people had already said would be scummy. Even though scum would have something to gain by doing it, they would also have a lot to lose and they would know this. What do you think about Sbrubbles and Navilus?
That's actually a pretty decent point.
After filtering him, Sbrubbles looks alright for the moment. Navilus I haven't looked at.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm here toad, and I agree that zephirdd looks like a terrible lynch.
Particularly because he basically blueclaimed. Lets let mafia take care of him, there is absolutely no need for us to lynch someone who is bluehinting:
On June 02 2012 02:49 Zephirdd wrote:
Get off me; pushing me is the worst move you can do atm.
Lets just leave him alone. If he is still alive tomorrow with no claim, and still looks scummy, THEN we deal with him.
##Vote: Hiropro
I still need to filter him though 
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
It's a bit sad isn't it hiropro. I just really want to see your flip and have the whole 1-1-1 thing resolved.
However, I'm mid-way through your filter and it's extremely unlikely I am going to keep my vote on you.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Upon reading his filter, I don't think Hiropro is scum. Apart from him picking GF, I see very little in his filter to justify lynching him.
Also, given they way discussion was going yesterday, I would not be surprised if mafia put 2 votes on RB and 1 vote on Framer, expecting it to be a runaway roleblocker win. I certainly expected everyone to pick roleblocker.
I don't want to lynch Zeph, and I'm willing to give risk more time. However I'm completely willing to lynch Navillus. In fact, I would not be surprised to see him flip scum.
Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340727&user=153628
Navillus is basically coasting Day 0 and doing the bare minimum to qualify as 'contributing'. His posts regarding poison and role selection are short and contain little original content, containing mainly obvious statements and corrections.
Since Day 1 began he has basically only questioned hiro slightly regarding his pick, and then posted this whopper:
On June 02 2012 07:09 Navillus wrote:
First I'll say for the sake of people knowing I'm not new, I've been playing on another site, I've played a few games here before, and if you go checking the other site (mafiascum) I have played as scum. With that out of the way...
WBG I think you're getting games confused, you wanted to lynch me in the OTHER game, not this one silly. More seriously one thing that I didn't realize before that game because I was used to games with a couple weeks to each day was that I have a fairly short period of possible activity in my days, I get home at 4-5pm edt and go to sleep at probably 12-1am so just in terms of the course of a day i won't be posting for more than 2/3s of it.
Also can we get a votecount
for now ##Vote: Zephirdd He has no posts that really push anyone, he's defensive, asks questions, points out what he apparently thinks is a scummy post then forgets about it and the poster (nuke's post). He basically doesn't look like he's trying to find scum in any of his posts, just that he wants to keep talking and look active. Now I would like to know from someone else because I don't remember anything about who's a vet here or not, how much has he played/how experienced is he, I could see his type of posting from someone new and not wanting to push people but I also thought I saw him referring to some older game so he doesn't sound new. (if he's like the most experienced person here and that was a really dumb question my bad)
I also am not a huge fan of the hiro lynch because I personally am bad at getting setup specific reads, but I also think it could be a legitimate slip, he wouldn't be my first choice (obviously that's zeph) but I also don't have a town read or something on him.
Big post, little content. It almost feels like this is navillus' token post for the day. He's fulfilled his obligation by making a big post, explained his vote, and can now disappear.
And by disappear, I mean he's actually still here and posting, just not contributing in the slightest.
In addition, his reasoning for not wanting to vote Hiro is bizarre at best, and quite scummy at worst.
This post is a big pile of nothing. Even his paragraph devoted to voting Zephirdd is actually only 2 sentences of reasoning, and a couple sentences discussing vets.
Navillus is NOT a lurker, and is attempting to 'contribute'. Yet his contributions are basically non existant, and really only amount to trying to fit in.
##Vote Navillus
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EPT
