Gratz Guys
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
Gratz Guys Stupid autocorrect | ||
rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 14 2012 08:01 Toadesstern wrote: so can you read german and did you read what we two posted? From the looks of it you know what was in there :p Thoughts about my first encrypted post? No, Yes, Use Alt+0196, or http://www.amazon.com/German-Bilingual-Language-Keyboard-Windows/dp/B000C1BA7Y | ||
rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 14 2012 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote: Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote: Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: On June 12 2012 13:38 rastaban wrote: On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote: If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person. If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow. I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote: The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle. If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two. If you shoot within the first If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return. I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping. It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. On June 12 2012 22:40 rastaban wrote: The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners. risk.nuke Kenpachi payl gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot. ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him. Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on? I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. The guy doesn't have any scumreads. Like, by now if he was town someone should have at least pissed him off to the point of calling them scum, yeah? He has none. No one he's even suspected that I'm aware of, though I have to admit...I haven't been watching too closely until today. Rastaban shoots tomorrow, and if he can't he dies. That's my vote. The whole reason I supported that first post was to keep someone from shooting that night, you notice there is a 9 hour gap because I was asleep. And who was your scum read besides me, oh wait it was Gonzaw we saw how that went down. There are a ton of people who we have almost no information on. And this whole gonzaw thing, you are singling me out for being the one to defend him? When I finally decide well maybe these people who have played more than me might have a better read I guess I will go along with them you decide to lynch me | ||
rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 14 2012 09:27 VisceraEyes wrote: Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 09:20 rastaban wrote: On June 14 2012 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote: On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote: Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: On June 12 2012 13:38 rastaban wrote: On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote: If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person. If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow. I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote: The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle. If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two. If you shoot within the first If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return. I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping. It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. On June 12 2012 22:40 rastaban wrote: The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners. risk.nuke Kenpachi payl gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot. ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him. Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on? I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. The guy doesn't have any scumreads. Like, by now if he was town someone should have at least pissed him off to the point of calling them scum, yeah? He has none. No one he's even suspected that I'm aware of, though I have to admit...I haven't been watching too closely until today. Rastaban shoots tomorrow, and if he can't he dies. That's my vote. The whole reason I supported that first post was to keep someone from shooting that night, you notice there is a 9 hour gap because I was asleep. And who was your scum read besides me, oh wait it was Gonzaw we saw how that went down. There are a ton of people who we have almost no information on. And this whole gonzaw thing, you are singling me out for being the one to defend him? When I finally decide well maybe these people who have played more than me might have a better read I guess I will go along with them you decide to lynch me I'm not singling you out for anything to do with gonzaw. I'm singling you out because you look like ass because you don't have a single solitary scumread in the whole game. Yeah, we have lurkers...it's a problem in EVERY GAME. What you wanna do about it? Wanna shoot them? Who do you think is scum? Why? I don't know anything about you guy, so all I have to base my read on you on is the information you put in the thread....and you haven't been putting any there! But by all means, continue to pull the newb card while under attack - it's doing wonders for your case for innocence. -.- Well played VE, Well played, but you wont get my scum arguments till day comes | ||
rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote: RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright, finished reading. Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse. I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller. That claim can literally never work. There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario. In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway. The same thing applies to SK's. Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller. But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote: On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim. Would anybody else care to comment? RoL is pretty obviously town, and I don't get where people keep trying to say that he talked down millers and then claimed. If you read what he says he says there isn't much benefit in claiming miller and then proceeds to say since there isn't a down side (and only a small benefit) he might as well claim. The end result being in his opinion a small benefit to town. | ||
rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 14 2012 12:16 talismania wrote: Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 12:09 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Out of sheer spite I'm shooting you as soon as the day post goes up. Is this a joke or are you now claiming that you're able to shoot? He has stated in the past that it was temporary | ||
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United States2294 Posts
Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 12:34 Cephiro wrote: On June 11 2012 16:10 supersoft wrote: lol okay, now I got it. This setup is perfect for me. Ahm let's discuss the dayshooting: Should VTs shoot day1, to maximize their number of KP? If this setup is perfect for you, how come you are even asking if VTs should shoot d1? It's quite obvious in my opinion that they should, as it's our only reliable way of killing scum. No lynches in this game, as can be seen from the op. So why would we want to give the scum + a possible SK a free night to kill townies with? 4 Mafia in the game, can't be that hard trying to find one, especially as we start from N0, we will have something to go by on D1. On June 11 2012 17:25 gonzaw wrote: Please everybody don't make a L plan to shoot a townie 5 minutes into D1. If you think someone is scum and really want to shoot them...you can always shoot them later (if everybody follows this trail of thought we'll have normal days). The thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote: If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia. You seem to be certain in your claim that there are three regular mafia. Explain? On June 12 2012 01:05 Toadesstern wrote: We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out. Same question to you. Earlier you were like you didn't know there could be additional/modified roles than the ones listed in the OP, and now you seem like you are taking a framer for certain. How come? Regarding RoL's miller claim, at the moment I'd prefer to see him take the shot late tomorrow if he survives the night, with reasons why he chose that specific target (whomever he picks, if we proceed with the miller-takes-the-shot-plan.) Obviously in my opinion even though he should be the one suggesting his target, we should not let him get away if he decides to take a random shot at someone most of the town does not agree with, especially if it's not backed up with arguments. On June 12 2012 05:58 supersoft wrote: Wish i was VT. Maybe I am... Maybe not... And the point of this is? Maybe you'd like to take a shot at someone? On June 12 2012 06:04 supersoft wrote: If I was VT, I would agree on that. Moreover would I assure, that I will shoot anyone that shoots townies without discussion. And 6 minutes later you claim not VT. I'll let everyone make their own assumptions about this. @ wbg, more useful content please. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote: If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two. If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. I agree with these points. On June 12 2012 08:48 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, damn, I really want to start some analysis, but this whole night is just a bunch of discussion about plans If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. (Of course a larger sample size is always better, but sometimes you can get a good start with just a little.) Adding to what you were talking about medics, if they find out that they are insane, they should stop protecting VT's unless the 50% chance is crucial for our survival and still having a shot at winning the game for town. Marv makes a small analysis post on RoL's miller claim, Toad performs the bandwagon jump surprisingly fast, I do not like. On June 12 2012 10:30 gonzaw wrote: Yeah I got carried away when I mentioned the watcher He's under scrutiny just by claiming Miller. Mafia may take the chance to shoot him tonight or on N1 just because of the reasons I presented previously. The "real" game hasn't started yet (the analysis and shit), so there's really no behaviour that can convince me Rol is GF (like I said his claim alone makes me think its legit). Anyways I gotta eat so I'll expand later Everyone should be under scrutiny. Not just someone claiming Miller. I don't like how you state that the real game hasn't started yet, and you give an absolute "There is really no behaviour that can convince me RoL is GF", just because in your opinion the game hasn't started yet? + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 10:35 talismania wrote: I've realized that an idea I had after Space Station might be applicable here. I was saving it up for a game with a mayoral election and PMs, but I then saw that in this game we all get to be mayor! So here's the outlines of the idea. The goal is to catch scum out in the long run by forcing them to post cases, suspicions, etc. Scum operate by feeling out the thread, sensing where discussion is going and nudging it along in a favorable direction or whatever. Blending in and all that jazz. To make it harder for this to happen (and to simultaneously make it so that everyone is playing harder), I came up with this proposal. (1) Everyone has to pick one person to make a case on, for why they think that person is scum. You have to actually make the case, like you're radfield or qatol or whatever. Nice decent-length post. (2) Everyone reveals their case at the same time (a good time would be near daybreak). This is the part that makes it hard for scum to blend in. (3) Note that there's extra information to be had here: who participated and who didn't. And why did the people who didn't participate not do so? (4) We take a look at the cases and go from there. FAQ: What's this good for again? --Forces participation / thread reading --Forces scum to make their own cases rather than hanging back --Additional information: HOW do people make their cases etc --When someone flips scum, there's a wealth of information to look back on. Who did they make a case on? Who made a case on them? Etc etc How the fuck do you get everyone on the thread at the same time? --You don't need to. You can post your case before the deadline but encrypt it using http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html and then post the key later. Yay encryption! What's wrong with just posting our cases as we make them? --Nothing really. That's obviously how every other game is played. But doing it this way can force everyone to play harder, better, etc. See the first question. It's not like posting has to stop until the cases are made or anything. Does it have to be a case on a single person? --All that matters for point (1) above is that it's something agreed to by everyone. It could be a case on a single person. It could be reads on everyone in the game. It could be a top four list of scum contenders. Whatever we think generates the most information. Your point (4) - how do we get from this to a lynch? --Nothing in particular. This acts as an info dump. We can get from it to the shooting however we want. Boohoo it will spam the thread up! --Suck it up and play the game. Mafia is about reading things and making decisions. If you're concerned about this, then we can all put our encrypted cases in spoiler tags. ___________ I will do this for sure. Anyone with me? This is totally unrelated and unnecessary in my opinion. Why would we need such special case plans to find out who's scum? Just play like the game is usually played. If you think someone is scum, make a case, or convince others why that someone is scum. Random ideas for how we should play the game are not needed, concentrate on scumhunting instead of making these. Weak start. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote: Yeah I'm not really putting too much effort this game for now (other than just coming up with a plan of action). Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm? Mostly because I expect to get shot tonight, so anything I do would basically be pointless (I knew that in pre-game though). .... I don't even know what to say to this. You don't even know your role pre-game, why would you expect to get shot on N0 before the game has even started? I don't like that attitude at all. You can't play mafia going into the game thinking "I'm going to die soon anyway so anything I do is pointless." You have to make the best out of it while you are alive. If you die and are a townie, you better have made the time you were alive count for your teammates to take the game for you. And no, the "real" game hasn't started because there's basically nothing to analyze or to respond to. There aren't any cases, or people's thoughts on other players, and I'm lazy to check each filter to try and gauge a read out of people just by their opinion on the plans presented. Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours? My points to gonzaw in bolded. Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)... I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion. Cephiro asks questions of everone, but has no opinion of his own Look at this line If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. Yet we will never get any analysis from him. How about this The thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. We can't sit around and yet that is all he does this whole game@ wbg, more useful content please. why doesnt he set an exampleI agree with these points. why.... well as you will continue to see reasons are never given for any of his agreements or disagreementsHere are two more comments to Gonzaw on why Gonzaw needs to analyze more instead of himself Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm? and Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours? All this babble about everything being analyzable and how Gonzaw is lazy but he doesn't give a single read himself... why doesn't Cephiro care enough to do it? Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)... I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion. The other part to notice is his infatuation with an SK being in the game. While bad for town, this is very bad for mafia as they can get in a situation where they can not kill him since they cant lynch. You will notice this comes up again later. On June 12 2012 13:09 Cephiro wrote: Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: Because I had the feeling I would. I've been shot N1 in 2 out of 3 games I've been town...and in like 90% of the games I've been town in UG mafia. Knowing that and knowing that there wasn't going to be any meaningful discussion going on (that wasn't related to the setup) it just disheartens you a little bit and doesn't put you in the right mood. Even if you felt like you had tough luck surviving, you should never start a game with "I've given up"-attitude, and maybe pick up your play if happened to survive. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: What do you think of marv's aggressiveness towards RoL and me Cephiro? I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0? One thing I would keep an eye on is if he starts accusing multiple people with very little reasoning. (Which he has not yet, in my opinion.) Once again no content, plans or reads just small talk I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. He partially understands, agreeing to disagree, these are tell tale signs of mafia ambivalence.Now check out his final lines I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0? He encourages marv passively while being vague about what he dislikes. Which of Marv's points are valid, which aren't we don't get to know. He says why wait for day time, but then he doesn't do anything. This is twice now that he pushes people to do things he isn't. I think this is huge, who says that they disagree with your points for wanting to kill, and then not only not explain why, but actively encourage it? On June 12 2012 13:27 Cephiro wrote: In all honesty, I was pretty much assuming there would be 2 nightkills as well, since I found the possibility of an SK being in-game very likely, and I'm having a hard time understanding if there is an SK, why would they leave the kill for the daytime, as a trigger-happy townie could just take a shot before him and thus modkill him? I think I might've misunderstood something in the way a possible SK works, but there's always a possibility there is no SK, or that there is an SK but with different restrictions than in the example role given in the OP. I don't see why mafia would not shoot on N0, as there is necessarily no tracker/watcher, and the chances of getting caught on N0 aren't that high, so I suspect that the kill was the mafia KP. They need every kill they can get. Enough assuming and more playing I suppose. So chaoser, you really seem to want gonzaw to shoot, which I understand, but I don't like the idea of him doing it right away, as we haven't really even have a chance to discuss with the majority of the players. (Unless you want him to shoot right away as a proof of his possible towny-ness, or at least gun ownership, while effectively modkilling the SK if we've understood right how the role works?). Especially as the "miller-takes-the-shot-plan" seemed to gain some attention last phase. Another condemning post. Once again we have more infatuation with the SK. All the gonzow discussion going on and all we get from Cephiro is at the end he thinks it could be ok to kill him immediately if it means the killing of the SK. Why is he again mentioning the SK, What kind of Towney spends 2 of their 3 posts on tracking down the SK? I think this is scum trying to tack down their competitor and trying to seem town. He even shows he hasn't paid much attention as he also is fine with the shoot the miller plan instead of the current one. Notice how he gives no input on this plan or the Gonzaw shot (other than to possibly delay the shot unless maybe they can get the SK) In conclusion Cephiro is Mafia and hoping to skate along unnoticed. He constantly worries about a Serial Killer, not about mafia. He then asks lots of questions but never gives an opinion. He mentions that he both agrees and disagrees with the arguments about Gonzaw but we never get an explanation for either. But most of all He doesn't care. He posts without caring about the results because he already knows the neither of them are scum so it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care to review or analyze or to try and find a plan because it doesn't affect his win condition. Cephiro just wants to see the world burn | ||
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On June 14 2012 13:00 rastaban wrote: Cephiro or how I learned to stop worrying and love the Serial Killer Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 12:34 Cephiro wrote: On June 11 2012 16:10 supersoft wrote: lol okay, now I got it. This setup is perfect for me. Ahm let's discuss the dayshooting: Should VTs shoot day1, to maximize their number of KP? If this setup is perfect for you, how come you are even asking if VTs should shoot d1? It's quite obvious in my opinion that they should, as it's our only reliable way of killing scum. No lynches in this game, as can be seen from the op. So why would we want to give the scum + a possible SK a free night to kill townies with? 4 Mafia in the game, can't be that hard trying to find one, especially as we start from N0, we will have something to go by on D1. On June 11 2012 17:25 gonzaw wrote: Please everybody don't make a L plan to shoot a townie 5 minutes into D1. If you think someone is scum and really want to shoot them...you can always shoot them later (if everybody follows this trail of thought we'll have normal days). The thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote: If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia. You seem to be certain in your claim that there are three regular mafia. Explain? On June 12 2012 01:05 Toadesstern wrote: We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out. Same question to you. Earlier you were like you didn't know there could be additional/modified roles than the ones listed in the OP, and now you seem like you are taking a framer for certain. How come? Regarding RoL's miller claim, at the moment I'd prefer to see him take the shot late tomorrow if he survives the night, with reasons why he chose that specific target (whomever he picks, if we proceed with the miller-takes-the-shot-plan.) Obviously in my opinion even though he should be the one suggesting his target, we should not let him get away if he decides to take a random shot at someone most of the town does not agree with, especially if it's not backed up with arguments. On June 12 2012 05:58 supersoft wrote: Wish i was VT. Maybe I am... Maybe not... And the point of this is? Maybe you'd like to take a shot at someone? On June 12 2012 06:04 supersoft wrote: If I was VT, I would agree on that. Moreover would I assure, that I will shoot anyone that shoots townies without discussion. And 6 minutes later you claim not VT. I'll let everyone make their own assumptions about this. @ wbg, more useful content please. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote: If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two. If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. I agree with these points. On June 12 2012 08:48 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, damn, I really want to start some analysis, but this whole night is just a bunch of discussion about plans If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. (Of course a larger sample size is always better, but sometimes you can get a good start with just a little.) Adding to what you were talking about medics, if they find out that they are insane, they should stop protecting VT's unless the 50% chance is crucial for our survival and still having a shot at winning the game for town. Marv makes a small analysis post on RoL's miller claim, Toad performs the bandwagon jump surprisingly fast, I do not like. On June 12 2012 10:30 gonzaw wrote: Yeah I got carried away when I mentioned the watcher He's under scrutiny just by claiming Miller. Mafia may take the chance to shoot him tonight or on N1 just because of the reasons I presented previously. The "real" game hasn't started yet (the analysis and shit), so there's really no behaviour that can convince me Rol is GF (like I said his claim alone makes me think its legit). Anyways I gotta eat so I'll expand later Everyone should be under scrutiny. Not just someone claiming Miller. I don't like how you state that the real game hasn't started yet, and you give an absolute "There is really no behaviour that can convince me RoL is GF", just because in your opinion the game hasn't started yet? + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 10:35 talismania wrote: I've realized that an idea I had after Space Station might be applicable here. I was saving it up for a game with a mayoral election and PMs, but I then saw that in this game we all get to be mayor! So here's the outlines of the idea. The goal is to catch scum out in the long run by forcing them to post cases, suspicions, etc. Scum operate by feeling out the thread, sensing where discussion is going and nudging it along in a favorable direction or whatever. Blending in and all that jazz. To make it harder for this to happen (and to simultaneously make it so that everyone is playing harder), I came up with this proposal. (1) Everyone has to pick one person to make a case on, for why they think that person is scum. You have to actually make the case, like you're radfield or qatol or whatever. Nice decent-length post. (2) Everyone reveals their case at the same time (a good time would be near daybreak). This is the part that makes it hard for scum to blend in. (3) Note that there's extra information to be had here: who participated and who didn't. And why did the people who didn't participate not do so? (4) We take a look at the cases and go from there. FAQ: What's this good for again? --Forces participation / thread reading --Forces scum to make their own cases rather than hanging back --Additional information: HOW do people make their cases etc --When someone flips scum, there's a wealth of information to look back on. Who did they make a case on? Who made a case on them? Etc etc How the fuck do you get everyone on the thread at the same time? --You don't need to. You can post your case before the deadline but encrypt it using http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html and then post the key later. Yay encryption! What's wrong with just posting our cases as we make them? --Nothing really. That's obviously how every other game is played. But doing it this way can force everyone to play harder, better, etc. See the first question. It's not like posting has to stop until the cases are made or anything. Does it have to be a case on a single person? --All that matters for point (1) above is that it's something agreed to by everyone. It could be a case on a single person. It could be reads on everyone in the game. It could be a top four list of scum contenders. Whatever we think generates the most information. Your point (4) - how do we get from this to a lynch? --Nothing in particular. This acts as an info dump. We can get from it to the shooting however we want. Boohoo it will spam the thread up! --Suck it up and play the game. Mafia is about reading things and making decisions. If you're concerned about this, then we can all put our encrypted cases in spoiler tags. ___________ I will do this for sure. Anyone with me? This is totally unrelated and unnecessary in my opinion. Why would we need such special case plans to find out who's scum? Just play like the game is usually played. If you think someone is scum, make a case, or convince others why that someone is scum. Random ideas for how we should play the game are not needed, concentrate on scumhunting instead of making these. Weak start. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote: Yeah I'm not really putting too much effort this game for now (other than just coming up with a plan of action). Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm? Mostly because I expect to get shot tonight, so anything I do would basically be pointless (I knew that in pre-game though). .... I don't even know what to say to this. You don't even know your role pre-game, why would you expect to get shot on N0 before the game has even started? I don't like that attitude at all. You can't play mafia going into the game thinking "I'm going to die soon anyway so anything I do is pointless." You have to make the best out of it while you are alive. If you die and are a townie, you better have made the time you were alive count for your teammates to take the game for you. And no, the "real" game hasn't started because there's basically nothing to analyze or to respond to. There aren't any cases, or people's thoughts on other players, and I'm lazy to check each filter to try and gauge a read out of people just by their opinion on the plans presented. Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours? My points to gonzaw in bolded. Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)... I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion. Cephiro asks questions of everone, but has no opinion of his own Look at this line Show nested quote + Yet we will never get any analysis from him. If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. How about this Show nested quote + We can't sit around and yet that is all he does this whole gameThe thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. why doesnt he set an example why.... well as you will continue to see reasons are never given for any of his agreements or disagreements Here are two more comments to Gonzaw on why Gonzaw needs to analyze more instead of himself Show nested quote + and Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm? Show nested quote + Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours? All this babble about everything being analyzable and how Gonzaw is lazy but he doesn't give a single read himself... why doesn't Cephiro care enough to do it? Show nested quote + Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)... I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion. The other part to notice is his infatuation with an SK being in the game. While bad for town, this is very bad for mafia as they can get in a situation where they can not kill him since they cant lynch. You will notice this comes up again later. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 13:09 Cephiro wrote: On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: Because I had the feeling I would. I've been shot N1 in 2 out of 3 games I've been town...and in like 90% of the games I've been town in UG mafia. Knowing that and knowing that there wasn't going to be any meaningful discussion going on (that wasn't related to the setup) it just disheartens you a little bit and doesn't put you in the right mood. Even if you felt like you had tough luck surviving, you should never start a game with "I've given up"-attitude, and maybe pick up your play if happened to survive. On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: What do you think of marv's aggressiveness towards RoL and me Cephiro? I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0? One thing I would keep an eye on is if he starts accusing multiple people with very little reasoning. (Which he has not yet, in my opinion.) Once again no content, plans or reads just small talk Show nested quote + He partially understands, agreeing to disagree, these are tell tale signs of mafia ambivalence.I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. Now check out his final lines Show nested quote + I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0? He encourages marv passively while being vague about what he dislikes. Which of Marv's points are valid, which aren't we don't get to know. He says why wait for day time, but then he doesn't do anything. This is twice now that he pushes people to do things he isn't. I think this is huge, who says that they disagree with your points for wanting to kill, and then not only not explain why, but actively encourage it? Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 13:27 Cephiro wrote: In all honesty, I was pretty much assuming there would be 2 nightkills as well, since I found the possibility of an SK being in-game very likely, and I'm having a hard time understanding if there is an SK, why would they leave the kill for the daytime, as a trigger-happy townie could just take a shot before him and thus modkill him? I think I might've misunderstood something in the way a possible SK works, but there's always a possibility there is no SK, or that there is an SK but with different restrictions than in the example role given in the OP. I don't see why mafia would not shoot on N0, as there is necessarily no tracker/watcher, and the chances of getting caught on N0 aren't that high, so I suspect that the kill was the mafia KP. They need every kill they can get. Enough assuming and more playing I suppose. So chaoser, you really seem to want gonzaw to shoot, which I understand, but I don't like the idea of him doing it right away, as we haven't really even have a chance to discuss with the majority of the players. (Unless you want him to shoot right away as a proof of his possible towny-ness, or at least gun ownership, while effectively modkilling the SK if we've understood right how the role works?). Especially as the "miller-takes-the-shot-plan" seemed to gain some attention last phase. Another condemning post. Once again we have more infatuation with the SK. All the gonzow discussion going on and all we get from Cephiro is at the end he thinks it could be ok to kill him immediately if it means the killing of the SK. Why is he again mentioning the SK, What kind of Towney spends 2 of their 3 posts on tracking down the SK? I think this is scum trying to tack down their competitor and trying to seem town. He even shows he hasn't paid much attention as he also is fine with the shoot the miller plan instead of the current one. Notice how he gives no input on this plan or the Gonzaw shot (other than to possibly delay the shot unless maybe they can get the SK) In conclusion Cephiro is Mafia and hoping to skate along unnoticed. He constantly worries about a Serial Killer, not about mafia. He then asks lots of questions but never gives an opinion. He mentions that he both agrees and disagrees with the arguments about Gonzaw but we never get an explanation for either. But most of all He doesn't care. He posts without caring about the results because he already knows the neither of them are scum so it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care to review or analyze or to try and find a plan because it doesn't affect his win condition. Cephiro just wants to see the world burn | ||
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On June 14 2012 23:09 MrZentor wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 14 2012 14:33 payl wrote: #1 suspect: MrZentor Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote: RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role. Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot. If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl. Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots. Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote: RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright, finished reading. Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse. I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller. That claim can literally never work. There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario. In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway. The same thing applies to SK's. Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller. But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote: On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim. Would anybody else care to comment? Entire change of stance based on pithy reasoning which doesn't support the change in opinion. And even better, the later post which ends with "would anybody else care to comment?" showing that he's afraid to commit to the accusation and is instead throwing it out there and seeing if it gains traction. Scum. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote: If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler + What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not? Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there). I think they did it like this: 1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not 2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public): Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list. That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun). This is the beauty from the plan: Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues.... ...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game. Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day. Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made). So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group. Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK. Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use: 1)Their medic saves on the gunners 2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners 1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them 2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later. That was the way it would work in the 1st game. Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it. Also, something I found along the way. Pretty sure 1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles 2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night 3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway. I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. This post is 100% bullshit. "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." What the fuck does that mean? And "This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it."? The plan was terrible...outing which townies could shoot and which could not? In any other context I would have taken MrZentor's comment to be sarcasm. And then another single sentence trying to paint chaoser with a bit of guilt for something that is frankly, trivial. I also have my eye on Toads, but I'll write more tomorrow. Show nested quote + Entire change of stance based on pithy reasoning which doesn't support the change in opinion. And even better, the later post which ends with "would anybody else care to comment?" showing that he's afraid to commit to the accusation and is instead throwing it out there and seeing if it gains traction. Scum. The person who claimed miller should be active and promoting a pro town environment, not lurking for 24 hours. The miller has a harder job than the rest of us; because it's possible that a mafia could claim miller, all claimed millers must be so pro town that there is no doubt of his alignment. RoL lurking is exactly what a mafia would do after successfully claiming miller. You're attacking me for asking for other people's opinions on RoL? Other people's opinions allow you to gauge how likely it is that your read is likely. + Show Spoiler + This post is 100% bullshit. "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." What the fuck does that mean? And "This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it."? The plan was terrible...outing which townies could shoot and which could not? In any other context I would have taken MrZentor's comment to be sarcasm. And then another single sentence trying to paint chaoser with a bit of guilt for something that is frankly, trivial. It means that town people are a lot more open and share a lot more things that an average mafia wouldn't; that was one of those things. Yes, you allow mafia to see who has a gun and who doesn't, but at the same time, it gives you a huge chance of revealing scum. That's funny, because Choaser didn't think it was trivial. In summary, payl is desperate to look like he's contributing information to town, but his case is really quite terrible. + Show Spoiler + On June 14 2012 17:05 Dirkzor wrote: Morning! First of, lets kill scum. I present: MrZentor! I was on to him early on: read here But after that it have just gotten worse. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote: If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler + What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not? Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there). I think they did it like this: 1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not 2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public): Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list. That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun). This is the beauty from the plan: Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues.... ...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game. Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day. Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made). So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group. Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK. Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use: 1)Their medic saves on the gunners 2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners 1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them 2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later. That was the way it would work in the 1st game. Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it. Also, something I found along the way. Pretty sure 1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles 2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night 3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway. I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. In this post he already starts to distance himself from any potential Gonzaw death (because he knew he was town). Calling gonzaw plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." is bullcrap since scum always come up with plans so we discuss the plan instead of actaul scumhunting. Its also easy to make it look like you are contributing when posting plans and talking about said plans. (See RoL in storm) He also starts a small "Chaoser is scum" notion throughout the post because chaoser is pressuring gonzaw saying he should shoot now. But chaoser had a pretty legit reason: Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 13:31 chaoser wrote: (Unless you want him to shoot right away as a proof of his possible towny-ness, or at least gun ownership, while effectively modkilling the SK if we've understood right how the role works?) Bingo. I think he's scummy and also unlikely to be SK and so why not kill two birds with one stone. So no reason for zentor to call chaoser scum. Getting the SK so early because of technical rules would have been great at the same time pressuring someone chaoser thought was scum. And note that Chaoser flipped town. Also note that chaoser posts was before any claim from RoL being shot and saved thus making his logic quite good. + Show Spoiler [Zentor trying to get a chaoser wagon g…] + On June 12 2012 23:46 MrZentor wrote: Gonzaw should shoot chaoser. On June 12 2012 23:52 MrZentor wrote: Chaoser said that he didn't want to wait 24 hours and that he wanted Gonzaw to shoot a few minutes after the day post. Check your facts. On June 13 2012 00:01 MrZentor wrote: Do you agree that Chaoser is scummy? Then Gonzaw gets shot. Kita comes in and calls us all idiots for killing him:+ Show Spoiler [Kita's post for reference] + On June 13 2012 10:50 kitaman27 wrote: I was writing up a nice long post about how gonzaw should be the last person we should shoot and I got ninja'd by like 3 min. -_- Why shoot the claimed cop day one when he could either tie up the roleblocker in a watcher setup, take a night hit, or provide an additional check. You can all yell at me for complaining after the flip, but that's a poor decision. I'll stop by tomorrow evening before the night post with thoughts for day two. Show nested quote + On June 13 2012 12:07 MrZentor wrote: I don't see how anybody could have thought Gonzaw was scum after that claim. The balls of steel was the sort of detail which sum doesn't have the time or energy to fabricate. Thats some weak ass reasoning as to why killing gonzaw was stupid? "lolz why didn't you idiots beleive him? He wrote balls of steel!" (<-- is my own interpretation) I think toad also touched on why this is stupid. Scum is sometimes given fake roleclaims that look like they were made by the host. So the BoS thing is total irrelevant. But look of it connects with Zentor distancing him from a townie flipping gonzaw. After chaoser flipped town Zentor needed someone new to push as scum. Why not go back to one already being discussed and in focus? RoL! With this: Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote: RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright, finished reading. Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse. I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller. That claim can literally never work. There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario. In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway. The same thing applies to SK's. Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller. But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote: On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim. Would anybody else care to comment? Zentor didn't actually write anything new about this. Well maybe the fact that RoL wasn't active during the night. Thats the only thing that have changed since Zentor wrote this: Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote: RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role. Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot. If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl. Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots. It doesn't make sense that Zentor should change his opinion about RoL for no reason at all. During the last part of this night Zentor also used the known scum tactic call: "No I don't! But he did! Look!" Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote: I haven't been lurking for days. -.- If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. "I'm not lurking but kenpachi is!" Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 12:36 MrZentor wrote: It means he can't shoot for one day. And MZ, how is pointing out how lurky RoL has been and how that's terribly suspicious behavior for a person who claimed miller not original? Speaking of original content, I'd like some from you. Look at your last posts from the night. + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2012 12:10 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Check it out, Kita AND zentor show up to tell us how dumb we are. Would have been just snazzy if you gentleman had actually been around during the day. On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Тебе надо говорит по-английский On June 14 2012 05:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 04:39 VisceraEyes wrote: On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Тебе надо говорит по-английский lol MZ any thoughts you wanna share? atm I'm at school getting ready for my last final so no lol. I still wanna kill zentor and the rastaban case looks decent from what I can tell. On June 14 2012 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote: RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright, finished reading. Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse. I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller. That claim can literally never work. There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario. In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway. The same thing applies to SK's. Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller. But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote: On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim. Would anybody else care to comment? So zentor you've been lurking for days and when you come back this is what you decide to comment on? ALSO NO MORE FINALS!!! On June 14 2012 12:13 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: To clarify that last post, nicely done commenting on something that has been discussed to death. What about rastaban? On June 14 2012 12:15 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote: I haven't been lurking for days. -.- If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. Do you have anything original to add? On June 14 2012 12:23 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I'm off to play some celebratory LoL, I'll check the thread when I'm done. I'm really liking the idea of having rastaban shoot zentor, thoughts? What can a reader get from these posts? That you want me dead, you like the Rastaban case, and you think I lurked a bunch. "I'm not posting anything original. But neither are you!" I say we kill Zentor today! Show nested quote + In this post he already starts to distance himself from any potential Gonzaw death (because he knew he was town). Calling gonzaw plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." is bullcrap since scum always come up with plans so we discuss the plan instead of actaul scumhunting. Its also easy to make it look like you are contributing when posting plans and talking about said plans. (See RoL in storm) He also starts a small "Chaoser is scum" notion throughout the post because chaoser is pressuring gonzaw saying he should shoot now. But chaoser had a pretty legit reason: I'm not "distancing myself from any potential Gonzaw death." I'm saying why Gonzaw is innocent, because he clearly was. It would be really sad if you guys ended up killing me, because I can read Gonzaw better than you can. -.- I didn't say of Gonzaw's plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." You're misquoting me. Chaoser telling somebody to shoot a few minutes into the day because "he's scummy and also unlikely to be SK" is a pretty terrible reason. It ended up being okay, because of chaoser's role, but a normal VT shouldn't take that wager, as it could end with a bullet in your head, a day of discussion for town gone, and a decent excuse from the godfather/sk. Show nested quote + Thats some weak ass reasoning as to why killing gonzaw was stupid? "lolz why didn't you idiots beleive him? He wrote balls of steel!" (<-- is my own interpretation) I think toad also touched on why this is stupid. Scum is sometimes given fake roleclaims that look like they were made by the host. So the BoS thing is total irrelevant. But look of it connects with Zentor distancing him from a townie flipping gonzaw. After chaoser flipped town Zentor needed someone new to push as scum. Why not go back to one already being discussed and in focus? RoL! With this: I wasn't aware that the host gave mafia sample role pms. (A good reason for why I'm not mafia. :p) So I was wrong for calling you guys stupid for that reason, but killing Gonzaw was pretty clearly the wrong thing to do. :/ Show nested quote + It doesn't make sense that Zentor should change his opinion about RoL for no reason at all. That's funny because you posted the reason earlier. In the quote you used, I gave MZ a summary of my recent original content. Show nested quote + And MZ, how is pointing out how lurky RoL has been and how that's terribly suspicious behavior for a person who claimed miller not original? And you can add that I showed why MZ hadn't posted anything with content recently. Would you be willing to take a shot at Cephiro? | ||
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On June 14 2012 22:46 Dirkzor wrote: DAMMIT! Just wrote a long post and it got lost =( At work so I'll try to write it again fast... Ceph: I like the point about him thnking about the SK so much. Seems weird for a townie to do that... Other then that he is lurking and trying not to get noticed - so its like the 4-5 other players doing the same this game. He can go die for all I care since he isn't helping us in anyway. I just got a much bigger scumread on Zentor! I want Kita and Wiggles to post more! I know the are able and should do just that! Neither have really produced anything that have helped us. I expected more from just those 2. (I would include MZ but I havent played with him before so I don't know how he plays) Rastaban: I've commented on your case (albeit fast and short) now please respond to mine! Well the fact that 2 different people people have posted large reviews of him at the same time on the same person is pretty strong evidence against him I have had him marked as reddish but couldn't seem to make a good case against him so I decided to re-read the thread from the beginning constructing a time-line, it was then that I noticed Cephiro's posts and how scummy they were so I started working from that angle. Payls post against him had some good points but not enough and thats where I was stuck on his case as well. However when you combined the continued nudges at Chaoser and then the sudden ROL focus I think makes it a much stronger case. I would much rather see a Zentor shoot than Toad, that is for sure. I don't see toad being Mafia, at least not yet, I try to re-evaluate my reads in case I miss things, but I just don't see Toad being scum this game. | ||
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On June 14 2012 23:04 Zealos wrote: You want me to claim? Don't claim, we don't have any info on you yet though. I would love if you would look over the cases against Zentor and Ceph and give your thoughts and any reads you have coming in fresh. You just subbed in so I know you need time to catch up so start with the current cases if you can and then let us know your thoughts in general on how things are playing out. Were you following before you subbed in? How do you think town should proceed? | ||
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On June 15 2012 04:08 Zealos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 03:56 marvellosity wrote: On June 15 2012 03:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: On June 14 2012 21:02 marvellosity wrote: payl is guilty as shit. he turns up during the shoot-gonzaw fiasco only to call RoL a liar because payl couldn't read the thread. He also completely ignores what's going on in the thread at the time despite posting several times. Now the typical 'easy' case against Zentor. I could make a case against Zentor with my eyes closed and my hands tied behind my back. I agree that zentor may be an "easy case" but why does that make him a bad lynch? As I've stated before, I think payl needs to die as well, I just don't want to see people making excuses like this about zentor. This wasn't the point, the post was about payl. So who should get shot today? Zentor or payl? Why can't we have Zentor shoot Payl? (or cephiro) it seems like the whole 2 birds 1 stones. | ||
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On June 15 2012 07:48 Cephiro wrote: Case #1: supersoft supersoft. The man who constantly jumps from one thing to another. The man who doesn't finish what he starts. Show nested quote + On June 11 2012 16:10 supersoft wrote: lol okay, now I got it. This setup is perfect for me. Ahm let's discuss the dayshooting: Should VTs shoot day1, to maximize their number of KP? + Show nested quote + On June 11 2012 16:26 supersoft wrote: 4 scum, 4 blues? 1-2 GF means there is a 33% chance if we shoot into the non VT players to hit scum. 1/5 of all players are scum, so lets shoot all nonVTs day1? Some of his first posts into the game. Random numbers pulled out of god knows where, this cannot serve to anything but cause confusion. And asking if VTs should shoot day 1, when it is our only reliable lynch method... seriously? No, we'll just no-shoot and give scum free kills. He also instantly drops the subject before others even have time to respond and moves on. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 05:20 supersoft wrote: because we probably got a LOT of blues. + In an optimal scenario, we really could benefit from a Millermassclaim D1 NOT N1.... This is something I found interesting after first overlooking it. What makes you think we probably have a LOT of blues? And if you believe that is the case, why do you think a Miller massclaim on D1 would benefit us? If you think we have a lot of blues, that means you think the town doesn't possess many guns (unless you think there are vigilante(s)?), and in that situation outing any KP that town millers have, in a mass miller claim doesn't sound very smart to me. Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 05:58 supersoft wrote: Pressuring will be so MUCH easier: I am going to type in one letter of the "##kill: MrZentor" in each post until he delivers his opinions! WOA! So cool. Wish i was VT. Maybe I am... Maybe not... + Show nested quote + On June 12 2012 06:04 supersoft wrote: If I was VT, I would agree on that. Moreover would I assure, that I will shoot anyone that shoots townies without discussion. I have no idea what you are trying to achieve by this. Especially as the next time you show up, you claim to have a gun. If you were trying to confuse scum/SK, you'd do a better job by just shutting up about it. This is funny, because the way he does it has currently no credibility. He has several times threatened to shoot someone in the thread, yet backed off every single time. Always appearing trigger happy, but never keeping his word. Show nested quote + On June 13 2012 03:17 supersoft wrote: "I won't claim my role though, that would only create more shitstorm." I really can't think of a reason why you shouldn't claim except the hosts didn't give you guys your fakeclaims yet. Not sure if serious or trolling. I'll give you one reason just as an example, although there are many more good ones. By not claiming his role (if he was town), he could be able to draw kp (into a possible medic protection), or a possible scum roleblock, which would be very useful if he was a veteran for example. Say scum would roleblock but not kill him, in hopes of getting an easy mislynch later on, as he hasn't even done an exact claim. Now, a roleblock on a veteran without a kill following through is quite a waste for mafia, no? + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2012 03:15 supersoft wrote: full claim or i shoot you in the next minutes. On June 13 2012 03:18 supersoft wrote: lol dude, i love the feeling to shoot scum. I will if you don't claim. I certainly will :D On June 13 2012 03:20 supersoft wrote: hahaha I got a gun dude, don't suspect me without giving reasond ^___________^ On June 13 2012 04:26 supersoft wrote: OKAY WAIT: Gonzaw I have this figured out. I want you to claim now. I have a rough idea what i want you to claim. If you fail you're guaranteed dead. Go for it. If you're town claim. On June 13 2012 04:30 supersoft wrote: CLAIM NOW On June 13 2012 04:31 supersoft wrote: fuck you remind me so much of my last scumgame where I screwed thread discussions for onw whole day when i was guaranteed dead. You do that right now. On June 13 2012 04:45 supersoft wrote: he won't he's scum. He basically claimed it in here. On June 13 2012 06:16 supersoft wrote: Show nested quote + On June 13 2012 05:59 wherebugsgo wrote: hey supersoft does Toad not understanding a joke mean he's mafia, or that he's just dumb? i am more concerned about his reaction to this gonzawmess: He doesn't seem to be very surprised about it. I expected him to have a stronger opinion here since he defended gonzaw earlier... (hope i remember that correctly) @Toad: Dude, seriously, how could you not get that joke! Makes us Germans look like we have no humor! can I shoot gonzaw now? On June 13 2012 07:08 supersoft wrote: gonzaw one last chance: full claim For someone that wants to shoot Gonzaw this badly, I felt kind of disappointed when he let it go so easily. When people were talking of others taking the shot instead of him, he semt quite satisfied with it. Not only that, but he went "trigger happy", on payl shortly after: + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2012 06:23 supersoft wrote: Payl, you have 5 minutes. I am crazy and I will shoot you if you don't shoot gonzaw. On June 13 2012 06:25 supersoft wrote: I don't think so. I am tired of that. I really think I have to set an example for future games. On June 13 2012 06:27 supersoft wrote: 1 min. Do you even have a gun? On June 13 2012 06:32 supersoft wrote: OH SCREW YOU! I don't wanna waste my shot on an idiot like this!? On June 13 2012 06:34 supersoft wrote: maybe 5 min is too short -_- going to play one lol-ranked-match. After that I chose between Toadesstern, gonzaw and payldude if they haven't already shot eachother. On June 14 2012 22:56 supersoft wrote: shut up marvel. if payl doesn't claim within the next 8 hours i (or better toad) shoot him at midnight european time. Yet no, nothing happens. He insists on being the one to shoot way too much for someone who doesn't follow up with anything. After doing this twice, why do you think anyone will even take a shot threat of you seriously? I guess you don't have a gun after all... Show nested quote + On June 14 2012 14:55 supersoft wrote: actually i think a mass roleclaim would be quite beneficial. discuss. You suggest a mass roleclaim with absolutely no reasoning. How is it beneficial for town, as multiple scum could easily fake-claim VT, and asking all the so-said gun owners to take their shot would take way too long. Now he's changed his mind and prefers ordering others to shoot, as he knows his claim won't be taken seriously: + Show Spoiler + On June 15 2012 06:10 supersoft wrote: shoot payle now. i want to sleep and nothing is going to happen until we shot some useless bewns. Payle refuses to communicate with us. Bullet please. On June 15 2012 06:12 supersoft wrote: I assume that he atleast readed my question about him having a gun. I asked him 2 or 3 times. I assume he doesn't want to answer this because he's scum and thinks he can scoot by with that shit. Go shoot him now Toad. On June 15 2012 06:13 supersoft wrote: Yes so what? I want to see toad shoot him since i don't really buy that toad really has a gun. My gun will be used early enough. On top of this, he has asked multiple persons if they own a gun. Does a townie really need to know if everyone has a gun or not? How can anyone find this kind of play pro-town? I have more on other persons, but it is getting late and I am way too sleepy to finish the other cases currently, so I will post them the instant I wake up, unless some smart-ass decides to shoot me. Soft was green to a confirmed dt, do you think soft is gf? I couldn't find any mention of this fact but to me that is strong evidence of his being town. I am surprised a Towney would put together this whole case and miss that fact. | ||
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Just kidding.... At least I hope I am... | ||
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