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On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho?
about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p
Let's start the wifom machine lol.
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On June 12 2012 06:27 FreelanceSatan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. I'm going to shoot toad if I survive. I remember several other retarded things said as well. Any issue with that? It would probably be best to hold off on this discussion till after night dont give scum any info to create wifom and chaos with their shots tonight unless absolutely necessary. ( altho it looks like the damage is done at any rate)
just look at LV. Wifom is good for town not good for mafia :p
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On June 12 2012 06:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. I'm going to shoot toad if I survive. I remember several other retarded things said as well. Any issue with that?
This makes no sense from your point of view 
Either you really think your move was a good one: In that case you don't care about what I posted becaue you either get shot or don't when apparently all you want to do is shoot d1, while I am protecting you. So why don't you like me protecting me like that if you're really a miller?
Or you think your move was retarded, in which case you should probably not have claimed.
Either way you should be happy about that post if you're really a townie. Why are you not?
+ Show Spoiler [Explanation for the first one] +This is from the thread of LV d2.:2)http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...¤tpage=39#773
That post I did was obviously bullshit. Yeah I don't have a strong townread on wiggles but the fact that he ended up being mayor probably makes him town or at least dead soon enough anyways.
However I am no medic and getting people to doubt him this night is a nice thing because it makes mafia less likely to shoot him. Kind of a beggars way to medic someone. And well I have a mason partner so I have all the proof I need to tell people that was bullshit on purpose the next day and just yell "shut the fuck up, that was on purpose" :3 It's originally from my mason QT but I posted it d2 in the thread so it should be okay because everyone has that information.
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On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will.
yeah that's what we kind of came up with. What do we do with people who already broke a rule?
I already mentioned that a claim prior to n0-d1 deadline is helping mafia if they want to bluesnipe and therefore pretty much everyone agreed to make the miller claimes either on the n0->d1 deadline to prevent that or just claim d1 because there's no benefit in claiming n0 from a townie point of view but some from a mafia point of view. Even a late D1 claim is np, It's not like DTs will claim d1 anyways due to sanities.
Surely we can't just shoot RoL now that he just claimed some hours ago but I agree that we should hold those standards in general to ensure noones going full retard on the thread in rambo-fashion (sup Wiggles :p)
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On June 12 2012 07:55 marvellosity wrote:Toad dearest, let's not be talking about ongoing games 
I'm not talking about ongoing games. I merly stated that he should be happy no matter if I really meant that or not and should not answer that if he's a scared townie who wants to survive n0. That principle works no matter of what game and no matter of my alignment because again, no matter if I really mean it or not, the result is still the same.
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On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum.
Yeah I totally agree here. That claim was really weird and as mentioned I wasn't even sure if it was a claim or a joke along the lines "well might as well claim miller" just to say a couple posts "...lol if I actually were a miller".
The one thing that got to my attention the most was obviously the last part you quoted because he was jumping down my very own throat for saying that claim is stupid and he should have claimed on the deadline or d1.
Here's the thing, he said himself the only downside to this (besides helping mafia bluesnipe, which he totally ignores although mentioned by me two times and by kita once) is idiots calling him suspicious on that one and he forsaw people being "stupid".
Again, this just makes no sense from a townie point of view. If he thinks I'm someone overanalyzing something, that's a fucking great towntell. Why is he willing to shoot me for that one. He's basicly calling me an incredible paranoid townie that keeps overthinkin stuff a lot and concludes in shooting me. That's not making sense at all.
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On June 12 2012 15:20 gonzaw wrote:
He tried to act like a smartass doing the whole "Oh geez if you think no mafia would fake-claim miller... then you make quite an effort in posting your thoughts about the Miller wouldn't you think?" thing and he was indeed being needlessly aggressive, even before in the game.
He doesn't play like that (I don't think he plays like that as scum either, although I only skimmed through Magic (was it?) where he was), and I found it odd. Perhaps he's trying to emulate Blazinghand or something...
That could be one thing. Or another reasonable thing would be: He thinks he found mafia and I agree on the most stuff that was mentioned about you and RoL. Apparently people like VE and WBG think the same way, Coag thought the same way and he's dead
Still catching up though.
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what's an insane, paranoid or weak doctor? Never played with those roles oO
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On June 12 2012 21:35 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 21:30 Toadesstern wrote:
what's an insane, paranoid or weak doctor? Never played with those roles oO
thx. I think the page was down a couple of months ago so now I also know that I can look up stuff over there again :p
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he basicly hasn't posted so far which is sadly not a tell for him. I know he hates me for posting so much but with 24 hour cycles the discussion is going to be shortened anyways so he should start doing something, like every other "lurker" so far.
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On June 12 2012 21:59 marvellosity wrote:
I agree Dirkzor. afaik Toad has quite a lot of experience with supersoft, so he has more insight than me with how he would be expected to post as townie/scum. According to his answer, nothing telling either way though.
no not really. I only played 2 games with in in total if I remember correctly. Or maybe 3? He has been away for half a year without playing mafia I think and I'm not THAT much of a vet :p
He is in LV, he played in the Annul-disaster-game which he obviously remembers and maybe he was in L as well?
The only thing that's "weird" about him is that he hasn't called me mafia so far because he usually does that either way lol. But that's not even an argument, more of a funny sidenote.
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On June 12 2012 23:08 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 22:59 marvellosity wrote:
Meapak, I meant gonzaw himself said that plans/setup speculation were a null tell.
Actually in his case I don't really disagree in generalities because he does similar things as town.
The nub of the matter is that it is ALL he does. I could quote several super-long posts where he does it. But says he is too lazy to filter and analyse. That's an inherent scummy contradiction. Alright then, the refusal to do analysis is certainly pretty bad. As for plans, I don't actually recall playing a game with gonzaw as town. Have any prerequisite reading I could do? Probably would help to take a look at it to make my final decision. Actually I think gonzaw should name the game so I see something that he personally believes is representative of his town play.
gonzaw definitly is the kind of townie that wants to be in controle. A little bit like palmar but way more paranoid without having the funny stuff palmar recently does. So yeah as town he forces people to talk about stuff HE wants to talk about as well to a point were he's shitting up the hread incredibly bad if people refuse to do that.
I don't know if he actually does a lot of plans as town but it would certainly fit the general scheme so that's not indicating for me at all, but the incredible amount of omgus and unwillingness to argue and analyse is.
As mentioned several times: This is a fast game, a really fast game, no matter if we get people to do what we said (no ninja-shots). Even the op says so and instead of doing something he basicly says the discussion we have had so far is not worth analyzing. Those two "facts" just don't add up as a townie mindset.
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On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote:Show nested quote +If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. Show nested quote +I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler +What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not?
Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there).
I think they did it like this:
1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not
2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun
Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public):
Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list.
That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun).
This is the beauty from the plan:
Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues....
...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game.
Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day.
Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made).
So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group.
Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK.
Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use:
1)Their medic saves on the gunners
2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners
1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them
2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later.
That was the way it would work in the 1st game.
Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit
What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it.
Also, something I found along the way. Show nested quote +Pretty sure
1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles
2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night
3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway.
I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen.
note to self for next time playing as mafia: Agree to something 99% of the thread has agreed to (well kind of, noone is stupid enough to say "I don't want to wait 24 hours. I want to shoot 5 mins into the game!!!!"), say you're not able to read something out of something so early and you'd therefore like to not analyze a thing yet and when being called scummy say nothing but "me not scummy! You scummy or SK!".
Apparently that's interpreted as genuine townie these days.
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On June 13 2012 01:36 supersoft wrote:
+ I want all of you to take positions. I want you to post your suspicions in red so all of us can see who you're aiming for.
In a setup like this, we have to make clear were we stand! No vote means scum can hide MUCH easier!!! They don't have to have ANY opinion if they don't want to.
We have to pressure a LOT more! I start: Toadesstern is suspicious, because he talks a lot and has no opinion on any player so far! Hasn't even an opinion about me?!
Except gonzaw (and this guy is talking too much. I am definetely not reading all of this again later -_-)
***and I remember that annulgame. I caught you day1. Was shot and facepalmed in the ObsQT and our PMs.
yeah but ever after that annul game you thought I'm mafia every game we played
I already said I think that RoL's claim is stupid to a point that I thought it's got to be a fakeclaim because a townie would not just ignore what Kita, I myself and pretty much everyone else said about an too early claim and that it has no advantages while giving town disadvantages.
Not sure what to make of RoL and I would have LOVER to see him shoot gonzaw if it weren't for is missing gun... Not really sure if I want to believe that but we can leave him be so long.
Gonzaw is my #1 read as well and I already stated why. I also answered a bunch of questions when being asked about other players (like you). I'm sorry I haven't figured out 4/4 mafia yet. I'll keep on working on that one though.
So far I'd like WBG to shoot gonzaw.
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and this game I might have a gun being kind of a dayvig or I'm one of the few people without a gun while being surrounded by bunch of people screaming to kill each other. You think that could possibly make for a weird start as well?
Although I don't think I'm starting weird at all. I made it very clear how and what I think about people so far, obviously not talking about people I consider to be townish and I have 2 guys I consider / considered to be mafia so far. For n0/d1 that's quite a lot imo, yet you're pressureing me for not having an opinion
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On June 13 2012 04:12 gonzaw wrote:
Hmm, I wouldn't mind Toad shooting me either now that I think of it
I wouldn't mind that either. Won't tell if I have a gun or not unless I get multiple people telling me the same thing for obvious reasons.
So if you want me to shoot tell me so and I'll tell you if I have a gun or not when we have at least some guys who think I should shoot.
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Crap, now I'm going to be shot n1
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you remember what you said about the shitstorm? what you're doing is way more shitstormy than any claim could ever be. Just tell us or don't but don't do such a middle thing that makes everyone wonder what it might be...
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On June 13 2012 04:40 marvellosity wrote:
RebirthofLegend must try to shoot first
I realy don't see him having a gun at all but in yeah there's no drawback to that.
Either he really is a miller who got his gun stolen or he's a mafia-not-GF who fakeclaimed miller and there never was a gun that was stolen :p
I doubt he'd lie as miller / VT / GF about having his gun stolen. There would be no reason to do so.
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EPT
