EPTMagic: The Gathering Mini Mafia
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marvellosity
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On May 21 2012 21:57 Zealos wrote: Trying to get the attention off you by using a personal insult about the first game I ever played seems a bit shit, you got anything to say about the actual case I made, instead of about me? And yeah, right off the bat on that game, he voted on some random guy, followed by being called out by someone as scum, then proceeded to WAY overreact in the guise of being "Afraid of death" Obviously, now he's tried to run away in the face of being called out, his replacement will have to convince us he isn't mafia. A couple of things about this post and in general. Firstly I will not be held responsible for Acro's posting, deal with it. I will be held responsible for my own. I replaced into SNMM XI and said this, and I was townie: On May 01 2012 07:02 marvellosity wrote: Second of all, I am not AcesAnoka. You may think his posting is terrible as hell or that he was scummy and lurky or whatever, but please approach my posting with an open mind. If you're gonna call me scum, call me scum because of what I've done. Secondly, your post I quoted. Were you seriously having a go at Acro for insulting you for your first game played, when your entire case on him rests on his scum-play on the first game he played? | ||
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On May 21 2012 07:36 Navillus wrote: Does it matter? No but seriously I'd say it's generally advice, I'm not sure that I agree on the DT advice but then if all the other stuff is him actually trying to help that probably is too and I'd defer to his judgement on that over my own. Navillus places a dumbly explained vote on wbg, and the justification is that... the advice was helpful and good? Something doesn't add up here. | ||
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You cry "but it was my first game douchebag!" before using Acro's first game as the basis for your case. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On May 21 2012 05:03 wherebugsgo wrote: Cool. A few notes I want to share with everyone: 1. Please don't lurk. 2. With that said, please don't spam either; if we have like 50 pages by the end of d1 it'll probably be looking really good for mafia. 3. If you are a blue role: don't breadcrumbyour role; you may choose to breadcrumb your actions, as that is more useful (and much harder to fake for scum). Don't play diffferently simply because you have a power role; scum will notice. 4. DTs: choose players who are unlikely to be framed or shot n1. Choose players who you think will live for a while. 5. Medics/JK: don't bluehunt, just protect the most sensible townies. 6. Vigis: don't be MrZentor (case in point: Game of Thrones) 7. Veterans: please don't do stupid shit to try to ensure you get shot. Chances are far stronger you'll be lynched for being a moron than take a bullet from scum. Anyway, all general advice and all stuff most of you should know, but read it over anyway. On May 21 2012 05:03 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't support policy lynching but I do agree we should keep an eye on VE because his play can be quite erratic. If he's the focus of attention as either alignment it becomes very difficult to discern what he is. So for now I think we should look elsewhere so we don't have that problem, and let VE decide for himself what he wants to do. This paragraph says remarkably little. He's talking about VE but what does any of it actually mean? The two bold parts are somewhat contradictory as well. | ||
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On May 22 2012 05:17 VisceraEyes wrote: 'chew you're meta-defending I guess? You're not alone, marvel lacks spine as well.  Hey. Hey! Watch your mouth. | ||
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I just can't bear it. | ||
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On May 22 2012 06:14 Mattchew wrote: "The Argivian University taught me two things: always look to the past, and never dismiss what appears useless." —Hanna, Weatherlight navigator | ||
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How are those 1 and 2 useful anyway again? | ||
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My point is that townies should in general strive to be as lucid and clear as possible. Don't give a flying two hoots what you think, if Mattchew just talks in plain text, it will achieve this better than speaking in MTG speak or whatever. Frankly I'm bored with the sheer quantity of townies who seem to not want to do this. Hence the vote. | ||
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On May 22 2012 18:02 Acid~ wrote: It looks like marvellosity's picked up right where Acrofales left off: buddying with Nova and voting without reasoning. ##Vote marvellosity Apparently you can't read. Well done you. | ||
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How is it different from LIV? Quite a few posts but generally not a lot of content, no? For now I'm going to answer 'who I'm suspicious of' as 'who I'd like to be dead'. So other than Matt, Nova, Acid, and to a lesser extent Jeb. | ||
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On May 22 2012 21:22 zelblade wrote: So you think nova is town yet you want to kill him? I wouldn't mind him dead. I just came from playing scum in LIV where 3/5 of my team were mod-killed and we still scored a convincing victory with the entire fucking town voting with me to kill another townie at LYLO, making a total of 6 consecutive townie mislynches and 0 scum lynches. Why? Because useless townies are useless and make easy lynch bait. Ideally I'd want someone to shoot Nova tonight. | ||
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On May 22 2012 21:32 Acid~ wrote: That's your reasoning. He didn't explain his. " I'll lynch you cause I don't like you !" that's not a reasoning. On May 22 2012 10:44 marvellosity wrote: no u My point is that townies should in general strive to be as lucid and clear as possible. Don't give a flying two hoots what you think, if Mattchew just talks in plain text, it will achieve this better than speaking in MTG speak or whatever. Frankly I'm bored with the sheer quantity of townies who seem to not want to do this. Hence the vote. | ||
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On May 22 2012 21:22 Acid~ wrote: 3. So I did actually look and this is just an outright lie. Nova's play was literally the opposite of what he is doing now : in that game he was against random votes, against bandwagoning, he played less aggressively and more analytically. lol? Taken from LIV: On May 07 2012 04:37 Nova_Terra wrote: Next, Kenpachi Absolutely worthless, if you consider his connection case useful i dunno what to say Vote: Kenpachi First time he mentioned Kenpachi was this. More analytical and against bandwagoning? mmkay. We're gonna disagree here. | ||
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On May 21 2012 18:37 Mouldy Jeb wrote: hi- now my presence is known. saying "get rid of a veteran" indicates that you are worried that an experienced Mafia player will either weasel you out~ if your mafia or kill you if you are not so due to this rash decision to get rid of competition so on that note #vote:Nova_Terra I don't understand this. An experienced mafia player would kill nova as a prime target? Unlikely. On May 21 2012 20:54 Mouldy Jeb wrote: tera~ this game is full of people jumping to conclusions so don't get a bit pissed  This implies that his previous post was 'jumping to conclusions'. Basically admitting his last post was rubbish. On May 21 2012 21:39 Mouldy Jeb wrote: an apt point, i was making a split second judgement I'm not saying I'm against you I'm just stating at that time you seemed to have the most random vote based only on the fact he was a vet. also my vote isn't by far final He's voting for him, but he's not against him? A final sentence indicating he's happy to back down from his vote. Then why make it? Just because other people are doing so? On May 22 2012 07:10 Mouldy Jeb wrote: mattchew, just because im considering that my vote may have been based on an ill judgement doesn't mean im scum just means ill have to wait till tomorrow to consolidate all the evidence from each persons posts to conjure up a decision on who to vote for. Ok, we're gonna have evidence consolidated from each person's post leading to a reasoned vote. Glad to hear it. On May 22 2012 22:22 Mouldy Jeb wrote: early game i suspected nova because of rash decision making from his part and myself assuming the worst, matchew voting for me which wasn't given a viable explanation so i would be inclined to vote for matchew due to his random train of thought against others ## vote:mattchew Gonna have to disagree with Mouldy on what consolidated evidence means I think. "inclined" to vote based on "random train of thought against others" - what does this even mean? It rather seems he's jumping on an easy wagon that's already started, because he's been voted against by said player, with a nonsensical reason. On May 22 2012 22:41 Mouldy Jeb wrote: yeah i had a feeling (OOOH AAAH) that that wasn't going to be understood, to explain, originally he voted for me for a reason he has yet to conger up then because of that random vote i felt that he was having a random vote so i voted for him. as a result of this he is trying to incriminate me by the whole "it reeks of terror and chaos shit"~~short and simple i don't like him i think he's scum trying to save his ass. ??? Overall - votes for Nova and admits it wasn't a proper vote, wishy washy about what the vote meant - basically his posts are just setting himself up to back down from the vote on Nova. A promise of consolidated evidence instead followed by a vote with a barely understandable explanation. Also going back to my earlier posts, he is hard to understand and does not post his thoughts clearly (well, actually he seems not to have clear thoughts anyway). At this time I would prefer a Jebjeb lynch. His posting both seems scummy while at the same time hard to understand. ##Unvote: Mattchew ##Vote: MouldyJeb | ||
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On May 22 2012 23:15 Zealos wrote: Lol. Gotta say I agree, I just don't understand what he's talking about o.O Terrible town, or terrible mafia imo. ##vote: MouldyJeb Do you not have an opinion which? And presuming you do, why? | ||
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On May 23 2012 00:00 Zealos wrote: Leaning on terrible town, because his team would have shut him up or at least coached him by now imo. Still strongest lynch atm though. Lurked to begin with, followed with nonsensical posting. You don't have a single scumread? | ||
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On May 23 2012 00:04 Zealos wrote: No strong ones, no, I haven't had a good enough look over the thread. I'll look over everything at the end of the night, because even if I tried to make a case now it'd probably be too late to get anything done about it. This isn't acceptable. You're effectively throwing your day 1 vote away because you can't be bothered to spend the time to form a proper opinion. | ||
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Katina: why are you avoiding interacting with the thread in any way? wbg has asked you a question on more than one occasion and you do nothing. | ||
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On May 23 2012 00:04 Zealos wrote: No strong ones, no, I haven't had a good enough look over the thread. I'll look over everything at the end of the night, because even if I tried to make a case now it'd probably be too late to get anything done about it. On May 23 2012 00:16 Zealos wrote: Not the case. My opinion is that Jeb should be lynched. The reason is twofold. 1. He is still a strong scumread, even though I said it was more likely that he is bad town. 2. That he has lurked, then been less than useless to town. I think he is a strong lynch, regardless of whether I have a strong scumread. So people, what do we think of Zealos? He votes on MouldyJeb who he thinks is bad town. He tells me he doesn't have a strong scumread. Then he reiterates that in fact Mouldy IS a strong scumread, even though he is likely town (seriously, wtf). Contradictions abound. | ||
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On May 23 2012 00:41 Nova_Terra wrote: T-T i hate defenses like this Me too. So what do you think of Mouldy and Zealos? | ||
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On May 23 2012 01:01 Nova_Terra wrote: I actually liked the tone used in zealos' early posts, but yeah, you pointed out some serious wtf stuff. I'm leaning scummy on him. Mouldy I think is just awful town. I don't think a scum could play like that. Hurts me inside As your vote is still on froggy, is he still your strongest read? Simply based on what you think is his flawed meta analysis? | ||
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On May 23 2012 01:20 Mattchew wrote: EBWOP: "Your strategy is marvelous. I've just made a few minor adjustments." —Veris, watcher of Indi Keep What in particular makes you lean town on one, scum the other? | ||
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On May 23 2012 02:09 Acid~ wrote: marvellosity, I would like you to explain something. At the start of the day, a couple players made a case against NT, and you (like Acrofales before you, whom you are replacing) jumped in to defend him, twice. As soon as I called you on buddying with NT, you included him in a list of people you'd like to see dead, and justified that with something about him being a useless townie. Now, to quote your own words : What is the particular something that came up? What did NT do exactly that prompted you to change your opinion to this : You're using the same argument in both cases, but resulting in different conclusions, and that swift reversal came mere minutes after being accused of buddying. Seems to me like you're trying to distance yourself from NT now that prospects are looking grim. If that's not the case and you truly had an epiphany, please quote the exact post from NT that made you change your mind. Are you not capable of working out the difference between lynching someone and vig shotting them? VE: I am dissapoint. Having pressured Matt to try to get him to post normally (to no avail) I am now trying to lynch scum. This is in no way incompatible with wanting to see bad townies shot at night. Good god. | ||
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Funny how Zealos has gone quiet while all the action has been going down. | ||
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On May 23 2012 06:48 HiroPro wrote: If he was town, than why the hell would he not post anything of value. Town who are dying give reads. This guy's just scum who doesn't want to reveal shit. You don't know much about a lot of townies in TL Mafia do you :/ | ||
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On May 23 2012 07:10 EchelonTee wrote: careful marv, mafia will shoot you and then everyone will ignore your dying words lolol Don't be silly dear, I'm not important enough to shoot | ||
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On May 23 2012 07:13 Nova_Terra wrote: Do you think you will be able to make a good case on any of them or should i attempt one What an odd question. You attempt a case on whoever you think is scummiest, how's that for a plan? | ||
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What in god's name do you mean by 'we'll see'? You may fucking grace us by making a case? | ||
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VE: this is why I want Nova shot. | ||
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On May 23 2012 20:51 Acid~ wrote: I would still like him to explain how he came about his reversal, but I'm not sure I'll be voting him again at the start of Day 2. First I want to read the thread again, specifically how the Jeb lynch happened, who pointed fingers and who followed, that sort of thing. You're not going to get one that satisfies you, I fear. I want scum and/or anti-town dead. I voted for scum (or so I thought) and at the time Nova seemed like a good vig shot, townie or not. Is this pushing a scum agenda? Maybe you could interpret it that way, but it's not the case. froggy, you should certainly know I'm not so openly risky as scum. Anyway, I have other people on my mind now. Here's hoping Nova makes some kickass cases to disprove my scepticism. | ||
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On May 23 2012 23:18 Zealos wrote: So Marvellosity, you've got 4 bullets in your gun, who dies and why? I'm thrilled you ask. I present Zealos the Contradictor. Nothing is coherent. The Mouldy Jeb and scumreads affair. Firstly I'm just going to requote my earlier post. Mouldy is a scumread except he's town except he's voting for him except he's not a strong scumread except he is a scumread except he's probably town. On May 23 2012 00:21 marvellosity wrote: So people, what do we think of Zealos? He votes on MouldyJeb who he thinks is bad town. He tells me he doesn't have a strong scumread. Then he reiterates that in fact Mouldy IS a strong scumread, even though he is likely town (seriously, wtf). Contradictions abound. Check out particularly the things I had bolded in the nested quotes. This ties in heavily to whether or not Zealos has scumreads. Because apparently on day 1 he was happy to lynch someone he thought was bad town. On May 23 2012 00:04 Zealos wrote: No strong ones, no, I haven't had a good enough look over the thread. I'll look over everything at the end of the night, because even if I tried to make a case now it'd probably be too late to get anything done about it. This post in particular abdicates any duty to search for scum and lynch them day 1. When Zealos left last night, he did not have any strong scumreads (apart from Mouldy. who wasn't actually a strong read. etc). On May 23 2012 17:57 Zealos wrote: Just woke up. Lynch is a shame, but worse things can happen, I've got some pretty good scumreads to post, and I'll do them just before deadline to avoid getting killed if possible/gives me time to put together a decent case(s) But what's this? The lynch has passed, Zealos has just woken up - and now he magically has 'pretty good' scumreads. Where did these come from? In his sleep? Why were they not posted, you know, during the time we lynch people? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The 'case' on Acro and inconsistent application of arguments: On May 21 2012 18:30 Zealos wrote: I'm voting Acro because for the time being he is the best choice in my opinion. ET's case makes sense to me. Add this to the fact that in the last game he was scum he played similar to the way he is in this game, yet wasn't lynched, and I don't want to make the same mistake again. If he can start posting usefully, then it would help alleviate some of this suspicion. On May 21 2012 21:57 Zealos wrote: Trying to get the attention off you by using a personal insult about the first game I ever played seems a bit shit, you got anything to say about the actual case I made, instead of about me? Zealos' 'case' on Acro consisted of "you seem to be playing similarly to your scummy meta". He and I may have different interpretations of what means what in Mafia, but this does not a case make. What is Acro supposed to say? Yes? No? Ok? The only part of his case is an attempt at meta. Funny, then, how he completely disregards meta while attacking me. I'm cropping the following post because I'm going to use it again. On May 23 2012 23:18 Zealos wrote: Could I just point out how "Active" Marvel has been all game, without making any real cases himself. He seems very good at pointing out problems, asking questions and what not, but I want to know who you want to kill and why The point is, useful townies don't use the thread as a place to have a conversation, they use it to root out scum. "Could I just point out" he asks innocently. Given how he was so keen to bring up Acro's meta, it's awfully negligent for him to ignore mine. A cursory check on my games indicates I post a lot, regardless of alignment. For example, I have an 8 page filter as my only scum game in LIV in a 79 page game. I have a 12 page filter from LIII when I played town and died just before page 100. I post a lot regardless of alignment. His part on me with relation to Acro: On May 23 2012 23:18 Zealos wrote: Not to mention from the very start he distances himself from Acro, instead of trying to make himself look more innocent: I understand the reasoning, but it seems like a free copout for acro's scummy posting. Not to mention he makes a lot of small posts with very little use for them other than to seem active. Again, he's putting suspicion on to me, but for what? He completely neglects to mention that the part he's talking about, I even provided a direct link to what I said when I last replaced into a game. It seems like a free copout for Acro's posting? What the fuck am I supposed to do about Acro's posting? It's just insidious. And again with the lots of posts comment when if he was consistent he would know that I post like that. On May 23 2012 23:18 Zealos wrote: Could I just point out how "Active" Marvel has been all game, without making any real cases himself. Handily glosses over that I was one of the first players to make a coherent case on Mouldy: + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 23:01 marvellosity wrote: Just had a good go over Mouldy and I think he might actually be a pretty good lynch. I don't understand this. An experienced mafia player would kill nova as a prime target? Unlikely. This implies that his previous post was 'jumping to conclusions'. Basically admitting his last post was rubbish. He's voting for him, but he's not against him? A final sentence indicating he's happy to back down from his vote. Then why make it? Just because other people are doing so? Ok, we're gonna have evidence consolidated from each person's post leading to a reasoned vote. Glad to hear it. Gonna have to disagree with Mouldy on what consolidated evidence means I think. "inclined" to vote based on "random train of thought against others" - what does this even mean? It rather seems he's jumping on an easy wagon that's already started, because he's been voted against by said player, with a nonsensical reason. ??? Overall - votes for Nova and admits it wasn't a proper vote, wishy washy about what the vote meant - basically his posts are just setting himself up to back down from the vote on Nova. A promise of consolidated evidence instead followed by a vote with a barely understandable explanation. Also going back to my earlier posts, he is hard to understand and does not post his thoughts clearly (well, actually he seems not to have clear thoughts anyway). At this time I would prefer a Jebjeb lynch. His posting both seems scummy while at the same time hard to understand. ##Unvote: Mattchew ##Vote: MouldyJeb ------------------------------------------------ In Summary: Zealos blatantly contradicts himself as to whether he has scumreads on day 1, not able to keep up a consistent story. He abdicates responsibility for providing scumreads, but appears with them during the night, having formed them in his sleep. He attempts to use meta to attack Acrofales, but totally neglects to check my meta when attacking me. | ||
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On May 24 2012 00:37 Acid~ wrote: Sure you would. Typical scum. Act all scummy and then act indignant when called out. "Oh come on if I was scum I would never be so obvious about it! Pschaw!" I am not 'typical scum'. I am marvellosity. There's a difference. I just finished playing scum in LIV. I never had any sort of case made against me there. Why? Because I can avoid the spotlight if I so desire. The closest anyone came to anything that game was 'he soft defended a scum once'. I would be a terrible scum player if I let myself come in for this flak, over... what? Wanting to kill Nova Terra? Hardly a grand prize. | ||
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On May 24 2012 04:17 Zealos wrote: 1. This was a jumble of words. I struggle to see why you still try to use this as a case. 2. Cute, you seem to think things through. 3. It was a game I had played with him, and I remembered the start quite well, hence why I used it. 4. As per 3, I didn't "Check" anyones meta, it was just something I happened to remember perfectly from my first game. Your case almost seemed reasonable apart from the fact your summary does nothing to point me as mafia, instead, it just tries to find flaws in my case against you. I've made my case, and I will answer you once, because getting into an argument will not help anything. To your 1) - you jumbled everything up because you were desperately trying to justify your vote on mouldy but you couldn't properly. I was pushing you on your vote, and the fact that you started stumbling over yourself showed you had no conviction in your vote. This heavily ties in to my point that you excused yourself from making any proper scumreads day 1, only to come up with them in the night phase. To your 3/4 and summary in general. I point out the many flaws in your case against me, because when scum are 'scumhunting' they need to fabricate a case on a townie. Unless scum is bussing, they will have to fabricate motivations that do not exist in order to try to conjure up a case. Your case against me was riddled with lies, inaccuracies, and fallacies which I pointed out - in short a case but not a case. I can't for the life of me remember which game it was, but the veterans might remember - Caller scum did this in some big game and was caught for it. | ||
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On May 24 2012 06:06 Mattchew wrote: + Show Spoiler [The Entire Zealos Case] + On May 23 2012 23:18 Zealos wrote: Could I just point out how "Active" Marvel has been all game, without making any real cases himself. He seems very good at pointing out problems, asking questions and what not, but I want to know who you want to kill and why Not to mention from the very start he distances himself from Acro, instead of trying to make himself look more innocent: I understand the reasoning, but it seems like a free copout for acro's scummy posting. Not to mention he makes a lot of small posts with very little use for them other than to seem active. (ironic) The point is, useful townies don't use the thread as a place to have a conversation, they use it to root out scum. So Marvellosity, you've got 4 bullets in your gun, who dies and why? Big ones hunt the elves, so the elves hunt the small ones to keep them from getting big. Anyone care to translate? ET, you seem to be good at it... | ||
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On May 24 2012 07:12 Zealos wrote: I'd have thought that anyone with half a brain would have realized that on a polarity lynch, you vote for whoever is most likely mafia, instead of those who you think are more likely mafia than not. Otherwise someone who is less likely scum imo would be lynched. Not to mention he was a useless town anyway. Convenient, then, that you decided not to spend the time looking for scum and instead deferred doing so until after the lynch. ##Vote: Zealos | ||
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On May 24 2012 08:10 HiroPro wrote: Posts cases. Gives reasons. Scum shows up and says "oh but why aren't you trying to convince other people, huh". Stop it. All I get from your case on Tunkeg is that he made a post you didn't like that asked a lot of his questions and his scumread died. Part 2 (ET dying) is wifom-central so I'm going to ignore that for the moment. What else makes him scum other than the fact he made a list of questions you don't like? | ||
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On May 24 2012 08:07 marvellosity wrote: Convenient, then, that you decided not to spend the time looking for scum and instead deferred doing so until after the lynch. ##Vote: Zealos Zealos: why exactly is Hiro scum for arguing with you? | ||
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On May 24 2012 08:18 Zealos wrote: I was asleep. Deal. Hiro isn't scum for arguing with me. He's scum for making a useless case that makes literally no sense at all. It feels like he made the case just for the sake of making the case, and as a result, it didn't make sense. Ok guys, we're lynching Zealos today. See bold for his excuse on not providing scumreads. See below timestamp for his post where he deferred his scumhunting: On May 23 2012 00:04 Zealos wrote: No strong ones, no, I haven't had a good enough look over the thread. I'll look over everything at the end of the night, because even if I tried to make a case now it'd probably be too late to get anything done about it. 00:04 KST, otherwise known as 16:04 BST. Asleep my arse. This guy is fucking scummyscumscum. | ||
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On May 24 2012 08:20 Zealos wrote: Actually, to clarify the first portion of the post. I was asleep just before deadline. I still felt mouldy was the best lynch. Looking for scum doesn't help when there's nothing to see. Even this is still bullshit. Everything that you posted in your 'cases' on me and zelblade happened BEFORE the post I timestamped above. Scum. | ||
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On May 24 2012 08:26 Zealos wrote: So the one thing I have done that is actually scummy is that I didnt have cases on day1? He's got me guys, looks like I'm gonna die. The one thing? you're handily forgetting my entire case preceding this. This is just the red cherry on top of your sweet red scum head. | ||
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On May 24 2012 16:26 Nova_Terra wrote: In fact, i would prefer a Katina lynch Bla de bla bla bla. Your filter is now 6 pages long. I do not want to see another post from you that isn't a decent case against who you want to lynch, and it should be more than 2 sentences long. Gogo. | ||
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You might think he's the strongest lynch but having read the thread and then your filter to check if I'm missing something, it's not even made me think about shoogling my bum off Zealos. | ||
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On May 24 2012 18:44 wherebugsgo wrote: If no one has realized yet that the voting system and town to scum ratio combined tremendously favors scum, and in a way that forces town to be active, then the game's probably over. We won't be able to kill the scum fast enough because we lose voting influence rapidly. So, it's now or never. And yet your vote is on Acid. Is he really your strongest scumread? | ||
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On May 24 2012 18:49 wherebugsgo wrote: I already explained why my vote is on Acid. If the threat isn't real then what's the point of trying to consolidate town? If a player is not willing to even answer a simple question then the easiest way to deal with them is to kill them. That is not 'he is my strongest scumread'. If we're in Day 2 and your strongest read on someone is based on not answering a question, we are in trouble. | ||
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On May 24 2012 18:48 Acid~ wrote: Fine, I'll respond. I don't think I would lynch Tunkeg today. There's nothing about his play that seems scummy to me. Zealos, that might happen if you could make a real case against him. As opposed to my fake case you mean? | ||
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There's also the fact she was very active in Liar for a while, while completely ignoring this game. | ||
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On May 24 2012 19:24 Zealos wrote: Let me spell it out to you, as you don't seem to understand. In a game where some one has to die, and my current reads are: 13 town looking players 1 scummy but still overall town, also useless in general. Who do you vote for? It's like trying to explain maths to a toodler... Let me spell it out to you, because you're an idiot. In a game where one has to die, and each lynch is important. You decide not to look for scum until after the lynch is over and lynch someone you believe to be a townie instead. As pointed out the 'reads you came up with all happened before you decided to pack it in for the day and be happy with lynching someone you thought was town. I voted for someone who I thought was scum. It's like trying to explain mafia to a toddler? No, I do toddlers a disservice. To a fucking stone. | ||
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On May 24 2012 20:14 Zealos wrote: You're saying because I wasn't able to find, and vote for, a scum on day1, I'm mafia. No, I'm saying that you COULD have done so. You abdicated searching for scum 7+ hours from the deadline, and the next day your reads all came from posts before that point. You actively chose NOT to hunt for scum when judging by your later cases the evidence was there for you, and you chose to lynch a townie because you actively chose this option. | ||
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On another train of thought. Zealos, is zelblade still your #1 scumread? Nova, how's that case coming on? | ||
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On May 24 2012 20:28 Zealos wrote: Marvel displaying his apt reading skills. Clearly hiro's my number one scumread at this point, his case at the start of the day literally screamed mafia to me. So is it just that case? Or are there other surrounding factors? Could we just *remove sarcasm* for now please, I think we shit up the thread enough | ||
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I just went over his filter in Newbie VI to check this out. For the large part he was calm, reasoned, and somewhat lurky. Here he is aggressive and indiscriminate. What do you make of this difference? Clicky here for his Newbie VI filter. | ||
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I just find it very hard to get to grips with atm that he'd change his scum meta from calm and reasoned to aggressive and pissing people off. It doesn't make sense to me. | ||
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On May 24 2012 22:49 Mattchew wrote: ##vote zelblade Give reasoning plz | ||
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On May 25 2012 00:29 Nova_Terra wrote: Nah thats just saying that i feel more comfortable with a lynch on acid, but i would still go to zealos If you're town, do you see how much lynch bait you are by not posting constructively? On May 24 2012 18:41 marvellosity wrote: Bla de bla bla bla. Your filter is now 6 pages long. I do not want to see another post from you that isn't a decent case against who you want to lynch, and it should be more than 2 sentences long. Gogo. Do this. | ||
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On May 25 2012 00:33 Nova_Terra wrote: Also im just tired from 2 nights in a row of 4 hours of sleep >.> i'll be posting like normal after tonight The problem is your current posting is 'normal'. It's been going for 1.5 games now :/ | ||
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On May 25 2012 00:59 Nova_Terra wrote: By normal i meant more spammy, normal for me Just make a fucking case already. So far you've said you wanted a Katina lynch, an Acid lynch, and you'd be ok with a Zealos lynch. Make a case. Stop making excuses. | ||
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On May 23 2012 13:39 Nova_Terra wrote: hey at least with me here it looks like the game is really active and people take sides on stuff Was just picking through your filter a little and found this. In what world, where you are townie, is getting a bunch of town to think you're scum a productive outcome? | ||
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On May 25 2012 01:24 Nova_Terra wrote: Then theres a couple worthless short defenses of herself. then this wonderful gem: ..... Not only is this completely stupid to have not seemed to read the thread, she says that my spam is similar to a game i played mafia in But wait, i was just in a game with you where i was town AND I SPAMMED So now shes just throwing shit to try to get a nice mislynch, doesnt matter if it makes sense as long as it casts suspicion, amirite katina Yay, Nova, a case! I've quoted the part I find particularly compelling. You see, you have a veteran player who knows how to play the game, and yet is lurky. This is at least forgiveable if when they do turn up, they say something of note. But here it's: Nova spams! And her response to wbg is even worse - "I know it's not alignment indicative, I'm just saying he spammed before". Her filter is short enough that when she contributes with the weakest sauce possible, it's superbad. What does everyone else think? | ||
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On May 25 2012 01:43 wherebugsgo wrote: Do any of you ever stop to think why Zealos may be impervious to a wagon? Stop to think of why he may not be getting as many votes as we want him to. Stop and reread his posts. Instead of talking cryptically, why not just say exactly what you mean? | ||
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On May 25 2012 01:43 VisceraEyes wrote: My case on bugs is strong, and all of you are going to realize it when it's too late. marvellosity, I expected more from you. ##Unvote: wherebugsgo ##Vote: Zealos Katina's probably town. On May 23 2012 02:43 marvellosity wrote: VE: I am dissapoint. 1-1 I guess?  What makes you think Katina is town? What do you think of Nova's case, and specifically the part I quoted and commented on? | ||
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On May 25 2012 01:46 wherebugsgo wrote: Nvm It should be obvious I want the townies in this game to do work. If I just say everything then town dies when I die. There's a difference between saying everything and saying nothing. At the moment you are doing the latter. | ||
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On May 25 2012 01:57 Mattchew wrote: "Thoughts are commodities. Someone will pay a good price for them. Even ones as simplistic as yours . . ." —Ennor, mentalist You've still not explained your vote on zelblade, you annoying person. | ||
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On May 25 2012 01:58 VisceraEyes wrote: Meh...at this point it doesn't even matter. It's clear who town wants to follow. Let's see where he takes us. Don't do that, it makes me feel icky  On May 25 2012 01:53 marvellosity wrote: There's a difference between lurking on one hand, and on the other when you do post being absolutely useless, which is what I'm (and nova originally) are trying to get at. You don't see anything in this? Can you answer this? Or anyone? I want to try to clarify my thoughts on katina. | ||
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On May 25 2012 02:03 VisceraEyes wrote: Katina HARD PUSHED N_T yesterday alongside me in the wee hours of day. Did you ignore this completely Marvel? I mean, you're asking me why I don't see how little content she has, I ask you why you're ignoring what content she does have. I am not ignoring the content she has. I am asking about these specific comments. She points out Nova spams, to what end? When wbg pulls her up on it, she says "yea, i know it doesn't mean anything." Then why did she make the comment, to what purpose? I'm going to have to go back over the thread to see at what time she was pushing for an N_T lynch. | ||
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On May 25 2012 02:05 VisceraEyes wrote: I need someone to come in here and tell me why they think WBG is town please! Anyone, don't be afraid! Just come in here and say with clear reasoning why they think WBG is town! I can't tell you that wbg is town, but I also can't tell you that wbg is scum. My issue with much of your case on wbg is that you are making a narrative out of his posts that doesn't actually have to be the case. | ||
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On May 25 2012 02:12 VisceraEyes wrote: marvel, here's what I want you to do. I asked you a question in my case against Bugs. I've tried to answer all of your questions, and you, like EVERYONE ELSE in town besides Navillus, has ignored the question I posed in my case. Because of this, I'm certain no one has even read my case (aside from Navillus). Go read my fucking case marvel, I'm literally not even going to respond to you until you answer the question I posed of town. Alright alright, I did. I couldn't find a specific question you asked of town unless I missed it. What was it? | ||
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On May 25 2012 02:29 VisceraEyes wrote: Did Bugs satisfactorily answer the question I posed of him regarding Nova? Do you mean "So why? Why would you say "by the time I asked Katina that I had already started to think Nova was town" when you never really "thought" he was scum to begin with?" ? That whole train of thought? | ||
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On May 25 2012 02:36 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't have ONE post on Bugs marvel, to get the entirety of my case you have to read my filter marvel. I'm sorry if you don't want to do that, I understand if you're "pressed for time" or whatever, but the whole of my thoughts on Bugs is in my filter...it's not a case, but an ever evolving train of thought that keeps growing more and more certain. Hey now, the reason I didn't find your question easily was because I had to read the multitude of posts in your filter about him, don't get angry at me. | ||
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I didn't quite know how to answer this in a coherent manner, so I've used red, blue and green to highlight. Now, he didn't answer you directly, but he answered your red question in the same colour, ditto with the blue question. As for the green, I'm specifically pointing at what bugs wrote. The point is that the question about two families of course did not need to be addressed, but doing so does not give information about reads to scum, therefore there was no potential harm in doing so. That's how I read it and it seems reasonable. | ||
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On May 25 2012 02:55 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay marvel, let me ask you because Bugs will pretend to be exasperated if I ask him. If we don't talk about our scum reads with each other, how are we to find scum? This is the big part about Bugs' play that I can't reconcile. I'm town, and I don't know who to trust...but I can't hope to find out who IS scum unless I get information from others about their reads and the reasoning for their actions. Bugs is abdicating responsibility for hunting scum with the phrase "information about reads in the hands of scum is bad"....but he handily glosses over the fact that without discussion our reads and reasoning, there's literally NO WAY TO FIND SCUM. Otherwise, we're just pointing a finger, lynching and hoping it turns out okay. We can't just randomly lynch, and we can't put all of our trust in one person to tell us who to lynch when there's no way to know if he's town or not (especially someone who isn't even willing to discuss his reads) It doesn't make any sense, the way Bugs is playing. It's contradictory, and I can't understand what the hell he hopes to accomplish if he's town....and I know Bugs is better than this, so that is why I'm certain he's scum. This point is valid, and is one I've alluded to myself. I dislike posts such as these: On May 25 2012 02:03 wherebugsgo wrote: Right now I don't feel like sparing very much effort since there's no point when more than half of you don't read to begin with. On May 25 2012 02:09 wherebugsgo wrote: Based on that alone I think there are at least two viable targets, but neither of them has received much attention. I'm gonna sleep on it for a bit and then if this Zealos thing doesn't take off I'll make a stronger case. The first one is at best arrogant and at worst an abdication of scumhunting responsibilities. The 2nd... well actually yes, I would like to see the cases and reads myself, and it shouldn't be contingent on whether the Zealos lynch 'takes off'. I expect to hear from wbg some more during this cycle on his reads. "I want the rest of town to do the work" or "people don't read" isn't a good reason not to present reads and cases. At the moment the way he's posted doesn't have to be scum, but if he continues to refuse to share his reads/cases, this will change. | ||
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On May 25 2012 03:09 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh, I can't read now. Cool guy. ********RAGEQUIT INCOMING********* Unfortunately your ragequits are not alignment indicative, so please do not | ||
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Break it with difficulty then. | ||
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On May 25 2012 03:13 Katina wrote: But at least Foolishness responded to people in Aperture and he was able to give out reads and make cases against people. I wouldn't mind killing Zealos I'm leaning more towards Mafia on him, but I think N_T and Mattchew come first. The cases against those two are much stronger than Zealos. As for WBG I have to go back and take a better look at him. I pretty mmuch ignored the little squabble between you two because it wasn't productive for the town. Actually, your case on N_T is absolutely pathetic compared to the case on Zealos. | ||
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Contradiction: On May 22 2012 00:09 Zealos wrote: I also gather that it will be impossible for you to defend yourself for the actions of Acro, and so it would be unfair to lynch you from that alone, but I am still suspicious of you. ##Unvote On May 23 2012 23:18 Zealos wrote: Not to mention from the very start he distances himself from Acro, instead of trying to make himself look more innocent: I understand the reasoning, but it seems like a free copout for acro's scummy posting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contradiction: On May 23 2012 00:04 Zealos wrote: No strong ones, no, I haven't had a good enough look over the thread. I'll look over everything at the end of the night, because even if I tried to make a case now it'd probably be too late to get anything done about it. On May 23 2012 00:16 Zealos wrote: Not the case. My opinion is that Jeb should be lynched. The reason is twofold. 1. He is still a strong scumread, even though I said it was more likely that he is bad town. 2. That he has lurked, then been less than useless to town. I think he is a strong lynch, regardless of whether I have a strong scumread. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contradiction: On May 23 2012 00:04 Zealos wrote: No strong ones, no, I haven't had a good enough look over the thread. I'll look over everything at the end of the night, because even if I tried to make a case now it'd probably be too late to get anything done about it. On May 23 2012 17:57 Zealos wrote: Just woke up. Lynch is a shame, but worse things can happen, I've got some pretty good scumreads to post, and I'll do them just before deadline to avoid getting killed if possible/gives me time to put together a decent case(s) Light explanation - "if I tried to make a case now it'd be too late". This is 7 hours before the lynch. After the lynch he wakes up with his scumreads, all the material on his cases on me/zelblade being present before he decided not to do so the previous day 7 (!) hours before lynch. See post later in green that ties into this. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Practically admitting being scum: On May 24 2012 04:17 Zealos wrote: Your case almost seemed reasonable apart from the fact your summary does nothing to point me as mafia, instead, it just tries to find flaws in my case against you. On May 24 2012 04:46 marvellosity wrote: To your 3/4 and summary in general. I point out the many flaws in your case against me, because when scum are 'scumhunting' they need to fabricate a case on a townie. Unless scum is bussing, they will have to fabricate motivations that do not exist in order to try to conjure up a case. Your case against me was riddled with lies, inaccuracies, and fallacies which I pointed out - in short a case but not a case. I can't for the life of me remember which game it was, but the veterans might remember - Caller scum did this in some big game and was caught for it. I quote my post as the rebuttal of his incorrect quibble of my summary. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contradictions and Lies: On May 24 2012 08:20 Zealos wrote: Actually, to clarify the first portion of the post. I was asleep just before deadline. I still felt mouldy was the best lynch. Looking for scum doesn't help when there's nothing to see. Tying into: On May 23 2012 00:04 Zealos wrote: No strong ones, no, I haven't had a good enough look over the thread. I'll look over everything at the end of the night, because even if I tried to make a case now it'd probably be too late to get anything done about it. On May 23 2012 17:57 Zealos wrote: Just woke up. Lynch is a shame, but worse things can happen, I've got some pretty good scumreads to post, and I'll do them just before deadline to avoid getting killed if possible/gives me time to put together a decent case(s) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How is this dude not scum? | ||
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On May 25 2012 03:52 Mattchew wrote: He lurks, lies, empty promises, and has contradictions WBG Nothing in comparison to Zealos, as outlined. | ||
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On May 25 2012 03:54 Mattchew wrote: the difference is i don't see the scum motive in zealos's faults You don't see the scum motive, in for example, saying I couldn't defend myself for Acrofales and then later accusing me based on it? You don't see the scum motive in, say, lynching a townie because he didn't have any reads despite the fact he could have made them? You don't see the scum motive in him saying there was nothing scummy to see, and then waking up AFTER the lynch and finding such things? Are you blind? | ||
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That's not enough. | ||
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On May 25 2012 03:59 wherebugsgo wrote: who knows, maybe they're both scum. We have no idea at this point but we need to work together to kill scum. There are merits for both lynches. We do have an idea. We have a strong case, and we have a case built on lurking and a single failure to present some reads. | ||
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On May 25 2012 04:04 Mattchew wrote: you cant defend yourself against them (cause you arent him), but that doesnt mean they cant be used and should be thrown away like they never happened. (Acro gave me my initial townread on you guys btw) I don't know what you are referring to with your 2nd point. I don't know when he actually sleeps so idk why that matters. Also, I think it would have been easier for him as scum to just sit idle and let the thread go wild then to make the comments he did. He doesn't seem stubborn with his reads or thoughts, which I find to be pretty telling that he doesn't have much information. Alright, let's do zelblade. Something came up in his life and he couldn't play mafia. Oh look town motivation. Shall we discard both cases now? | ||
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On May 25 2012 04:13 Mattchew wrote: Why would he point something out as being scummy (jumping around) and then in his next post name 3 players and vote a new one (who 2 of his scum reads were also voting) zelblade said his vote had been jumpy. zelblade looked at the options and then voted for one player, not several. What's the problem? | ||
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Need Katina, Acid, and zelblade to either start posting or start posting relevantly. | ||
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Possibly. Probably shouldn't have included you there. | ||
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On May 25 2012 04:56 Acid~ wrote: How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!" And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask. "If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?" Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night. I find this entire post deeply inconsistent. I have pointed out several times the scummy motivations for doing what Zealos did. Your justification on zelblade is so weak. To the bold: so zelblade has some special power, and the best way to utilise it is... wait... it's coming.... I know! to say he's going to post reads and then not! That's sure to make him survive so he can use his powers! -.- | ||
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On May 25 2012 06:11 Mattchew wrote: I don't care about his lack of defense, I care about his reads and what he has posted The reads he decided not to post during the day? The read where he said I hadn't made a case but I had? Or where he said I was posting a lot even though that's irrelevant? What is it about the timing of his reads (not posting them during the day) or content (everything he said on me was bad) do you like? Or is it just that he went after zelblade who you are also going after? | ||
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On May 25 2012 06:10 Navillus wrote: Marvel first at the beginning he was doing his whole flavor text thing which I really didn't see as alignment indicative, if anything town would probably be more willing to do it because scum would be afraid of drawing attention and everyone yelling at them to stop, but then where I started to think he was town was when people had a problem with him he continued to do it but also made sure to make his reads clear and explicit as the game went on, I don't think scum would do this as once enough people were accepting it or not lynching him over it I think he was in the clear, policy lynches rarely happen day 1 and almost never day 2, but he continued to be clear with what he was saying. Then when he posted all of his reads I agreed with many of them and just the thought process behind them seemed townie. The biggest thing now though is that he stopped with the flavor to try to get VE and WBG to stop fighting. Scum would have no reason to do this, first most scum would (and probably did) just stay out of that fight in general seeing as it was making the thread more confusing and scum-hunting more difficult. They could sit behind the excuse that it was the two vets and they know more or should work it out or something, but Matt has an even better excuse, he could have ignored it or thrown some useless flavor at it and if anyone asked him about it later he could say he did what he could (which because it would just be some flavor text probably wouldn't fix anything) and no one would blame him as most people accepted the flavor at this point. But instead he decides that doing what's best for town is more important and stops with the flavor text, this is big because one he's helping town in the first place by calming the fight and two by stopping the flavor text he's making himself more vulnerable and easier to read, I think if scum took the gambit to post like that at the beginning they wouldn't be willing to give up the advantage of being harder to read so soon at all. Perhaps you're right. It's not a ploy I'd put past a scum Matt, at all though. For example, an alternative story: 1) sees Drazerk made it to endgame almost without suspicion using posting restriction, does it himself 2) rides to the rescue by posting normally again (like we should be pleased with this. he should have been doing so from the start) and gains town credit for it and coming to scold wbg/VE. I'm not saying this has to be the case, but it definitely could be the case. | ||
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On May 25 2012 06:30 Mattchew wrote: ps. its not my fault if you couldn't understand my posts when i was using flavor, I made the message in each one pretty fucking simple and usually revolving around one or two words Because a one or two word opinion is worth everything? What do you think of this guy? townie. What about him? stupid. Who is scum and with what reasoning? Mr moobumballs because the sun is low in the sky. Great. | ||
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On May 25 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 25 2012 01:24 Nova_Terra wrote: Hi, im going to take a brief bit of time to go over my favorite for todays lynch, Katina. Note the word brief, her filter is 12 posts. 6 of which is 1 or 2 liners. Now lets go and check a game where Katina was scum, TL Mafia LIV. In her filter: Posts at the same rate as this game, aka lurking (until she gets modkilled day1) posting aggressively when she actually posts quoting to look like shes contributing to quote katina, What is she doing this game? ... ... Same thing! First post Okay, so immediately we have complaining about other peoples votes while offering nothing, saying theres nothing to scum hunt with (yeah thanks for that) a Navillus scummy bandwagon, and a promise for some closer look soon. Only a day and 3 hours later does she actually make a post with any sort of "closer look". Second post Then we have a wonderfully awful case against myself, decides to link me to another player and therefore i am mafia (lolwut) This post is also wonderful because once gets accused of lurking... NO LOOK I WAS HERE BEFORE READ READ READ WHY U NO READ So so far we have a silly case and vote that adds suspicion to players with no logical reasoning, getting defensive when called out on totally true lurking, and meta that is the exact same as her last games scum meta Oh cool, now we have a secondary target being thrown out, but not only is this post throwing out a secondary target... Its pretty much doing the same thing as Katina was pointing out here, and more importantly shes asking for someone to do the dirty work for her. Im not sure we should but he should be suspicious everybody notice i do stuff. Now heres the first real "closer look post" First part of the post is literally the exact same excuse as LIV where she says that she had a busy night so apologies apologies, good job Then is this awful reasoning that i am scum, looks like to me once she realized that my vote got sufficient traction it was time to bandwagon a real reason for hers Problem is, the reasons are bull. So right now it appears that she opposes pressure (apparently pressuring a veteran isnt ok) and its a problem that i picked at "everyone" (actually 6 people, 15 people in town. i dont see the problem). Furthermore, as she had just been in a game with me, i would assume she knows how i post spammily and this shouldnt be surprising to her. Unless she rolled scum, and is bullshitting, that is. Apparently its a bad thing to not only focus on 1 or 2 players (what? trying to limit a vote where there is no no-lynch?) Then theres a couple worthless short defenses of herself. then this wonderful gem: ..... Not only is this completely stupid to have not seemed to read the thread, she says that my spam is similar to a game i played mafia in But wait, i was just in a game with you where i was town AND I SPAMMED So now shes just throwing shit to try to get a nice mislynch, doesnt matter if it makes sense as long as it casts suspicion, amirite katina OWAIT NOOOO dont get me wrong im not trying to say that hes scum because of it! im just suggesting its a possibility11!!!!! Do i seriously need to explain this Then theres some wonderful sheeping on the "mattchews posting is cute but maybe hes scum" Good job saying nothing original (again) WIFOM: Katina was one of ET's main suspects that he was fine with lynching, but wasnt noticed very much Same meta as scum Katina [b]##Vote: Katina this is a good case, sorry i missed it. more people should read this and give their thoughts I did try to delve into a specific part of it, but it didn't get me very far for some reason | ||
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On May 24 2012 06:06 Mattchew wrote: + Show Spoiler [The Entire Zealos Case] + On May 23 2012 23:18 Zealos wrote: Could I just point out how "Active" Marvel has been all game, without making any real cases himself. He seems very good at pointing out problems, asking questions and what not, but I want to know who you want to kill and why Not to mention from the very start he distances himself from Acro, instead of trying to make himself look more innocent: I understand the reasoning, but it seems like a free copout for acro's scummy posting. Not to mention he makes a lot of small posts with very little use for them other than to seem active. (ironic) The point is, useful townies don't use the thread as a place to have a conversation, they use it to root out scum. So Marvellosity, you've got 4 bullets in your gun, who dies and why? Big ones hunt the elves, so the elves hunt the small ones to keep them from getting big. | ||
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On May 25 2012 06:45 froggynoddy wrote: @Marv: Unless you feel like Matt's style was scummy I suggest you back off. Matt seemed to have switched for the good of town rather than to save himself. This to me gives Matt some credit. I for one did not find his roleplay scummy though I do think it limited his content. Now kiss and make up... unless you think the other is scum, if so write a case. Sorry froggy, my bad. I missed the memo where forcibly and artificially limiting your own content was a pro-town thing to do. | ||
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On May 25 2012 06:54 Mattchew wrote: remember that time you signed up for a Magic the Gathering themed mini game? Mmhmm. Let's have a little fun with a thought experiment 1) what happens when everyone does their best to contribute in a clear way? 2) what happens when everyone only posts in MTG quotes? *ponders* | ||
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On May 25 2012 06:59 wherebugsgo wrote: this is a flavored normal game, not a themed one. Moving on: you said earlier you would post some cases/reads around now if the thread hadn't moved on. I'm not sure I count me and Matt shouting at each other as the thread moving on. So, care to share? | ||
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On May 25 2012 07:09 VisceraEyes wrote: Marvel, is it safe to assume that you're on the Zealos train to town purtiy? Pretty safe. If a genuinely good case comes up on someone else I will consider it of course. But zelblade is not that case. | ||
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He says he can't find the motivation in Zealos, and yet apparently the motivation in zelblade not following through on his reads is perfectly clear. | ||
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On May 25 2012 07:32 VisceraEyes wrote: Same shit with Mouldy. I think Zealos is the scummy candidate and Zelblade is the lurker candidate to me. *nodnod* Alright, here's a question for you: why do you think Zealos is more likely scummy than bad towny? | ||
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On May 25 2012 07:41 marvellosity wrote: You do realise he said that in sarcastic reference to where he said the exact same thing about Mouldy earlier, right? Like, normally I'd understand what you posted in isolation, but it can't be read in isolation in this particular case | ||
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On May 25 2012 08:13 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay, yeah...I don't know that it's scumminess that I'm seeing. Like, his logic is TOO bad to be like...contrived, or planned. I'm not sure what to do this lynch, so what I'm going to do is vote for the person I'm most convinced is scum. That person is wherebugsgo. ##Unvote: Zealos ##Vote: wherebugsgo *shrug* What happened to discussing two candidates and consolidating? | ||
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Need to see how people post tomorrow. Hopefully zelblade shows up. I'd like to hear from wbg on his other reads. | ||
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On May 25 2012 18:56 Tunkeg wrote: WBG is scum, so: ##Vote wherebugsgo Ugh. Sooooo much has gone on since your last post, and this is what you come up with? Really? | ||
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On May 21 2012 05:12 Tunkeg wrote: 1. I will not be posting as much as before. I will try to post better and longer posts though. And less one liners and useless crap. Oh rly. Let's see: On May 25 2012 18:56 Tunkeg wrote: WBG is scum, so: ##Vote wherebugsgo On May 25 2012 19:08 Tunkeg wrote: Yeah, really. Thats all you will be hearing from me for today. Do with it as you please... On May 25 2012 19:09 Tunkeg wrote: Or maybe I will post some right before the deadline. We'll see. On May 25 2012 20:08 Tunkeg wrote: Wrong again, there won't be any information that is relevant for todays lynch in it... A lot of one-liners and useless crap. I'd be down for a Tunkeg lynch. | ||
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##Vote: Tunkeg | ||
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Could we get a mod-warning for this type of play? Is giving up and not trying acceptable in TL land? Thanks | ||
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I don't know what to do today now. | ||
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On May 25 2012 20:59 Nova_Terra wrote: totally agree people in real life solve problems by shouting and even attacking eachother not by just sitting down and letting themselves get kicked the crap out of As a brief aside - why did you let me kick the crap out of you in LIV then? lol | ||
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On May 25 2012 21:08 Mattchew wrote: there is no way anyone who doesn't know tunkeg's alignment would come to this conclusion stick with the zealos vote Mattchew - do you accept zelblade's real life excuse and what he's posted? How has his return altered your read? Zealos - if you weren't gonna lynch Hiro, then who? | ||
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On May 25 2012 14:46 zelblade wrote: Another targert of intrest is Tunkeg. I already mentioned that I dont think that wanting to change one's meta is scummy, since players regardless of alignment might want to try out new styles of play. One point against him is that he didnt post that post before the game, but that is a minor factor to what I feel about his posting. He seems to emphasise that posting lists and reads gives "accountability", when in reality, it does nothing. How does knowing his reads, especially considering they are weak D1 reads which could easily be backpeddalled on, help town in anyway whatsoever? I have no idea what he means by accountability, considering townies can and will change their opinions overtime, and we do not need to know this. Notice how he also says that knowing his reads will help when someone is making a case on him. Wut? Why would a townie ever post something like that? Lets lynch Tunkeg tomorrow after we get rid of zealos. Before Tunkeg's recent... posts, I actually had a tentative town-read on him. Because he had ET marked as town originally only to make a case on him subsequently. This did not seem like a scum move to me. What do you think about this? | ||
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On May 25 2012 13:49 Ver wrote: Similarly, in most cases someone who appears so unbelievably guilty yet isn't giving up is almost always going to be a townie. I am officially right now a confused jubjub. Everything in my case in Zealos is true, and in many ways he has played terribly. But my confidence that he's scum is slipping away. | ||
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On May 25 2012 21:55 Tunkeg wrote: Allright got the warning. I will actually write some of what I would write if you guys lynched me. Hence my reply to WBG if I wanted a townie to get lynched. Yeah, I wouldn't mind getting lynched at all. I think this game have taken the course as many games do, where everyone keep mouthing off about how everyone else is bad, stupid, fucking useless etc etc (I don't care if it is directed towards me or anyone else, for instance the way syllogism played in liars should be frowned upon be the entire community). This is an environment I don't want to play in. It annoys the fuck out of me that you guys aren't capable of playing this game through arguements, but have to resort to namecalling and domination techniques. It actually annoys me to such a degree that I can't read the thread properly, nor play the game properly, and start caring less and less about the game. If TL towns can't deal with badmouthing players ruining the townenvironment the scum will keep dominating. I have told Artonis to do as he please about it. I won't bate you into lynching me as long as you guys don't bate me into writing obvious "LYNCH ME!" stuff. I'm going to defend both myself and others here. As far as I can see, there have been 3 main 'arguments' - Me/Zealos, VE/WBG, Me/Mattchew. 1. Me/Zealos - yes, we went at each other a bit. We never crossed a line though. And guess what? Totally of our own volition, we pulled the thread back into normality, and I got a read and case out of Zealos. Net outcome - productive, even if it took some spam preceding it. 2. VE/wbg. You should know these 2 regularly argue. Look at Liar as an obvious and recent example. This is what they do together. 3. Me/Matt. So we swore at each other which we should not, and then since it's been back to productive conversation. Tempers flare and arguments will be had, it is mafia. As far as I know, there is zero bad blood between us. Your attitude is also deeply hypocritical. Taken from your meta-change post: On May 21 2012 05:12 Tunkeg wrote: Many times it took up to much space, and some might even label it as disruptive. 2. I will control my temper. I will not be getting into any fights, I won’t be starting any and I will try not to get pulled into one. 3. I will try to post better analysis, and avoid insulting the ones I analyze. I can clarify, but I won’t argue with nitpickers. My biggest weakness is ... my temper. Freely admitting your posting in the past has been disruptive, temper driven, involved in fighting, argumentatitve, and again temper. And here you are ragequitting because people have argued. Wow. | ||
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On May 25 2012 22:11 Nova_Terra wrote: is it allowed to make the judgement that Tunkeg is town because artanis PM'ed him a warning? Why does that make sense? | ||
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On May 25 2012 22:16 Tunkeg wrote: "Fighting" and argueing isn't the same as being BM. And yeah I am easily teased into being BM. But there is a difference in being BM when you are pissed off, and being it for the hell of it. I don't support either, but the first is understandable. Where have people been BM for the hell of it? | ||
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On May 25 2012 22:17 Nova_Terra wrote: If he was mafia he wouldnt actually be giving up and host would know this Not true necessarily - e.g. Adam4167 in LI who was scum even said *after* the game had been abandoned that he'd kinda stopped playing because of the shit-storm. | ||
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Why you may ask? It all hinges on Katina. In LI, she was one of only two players who pegged Toad AND VE as scum. Great read. In Liar Mafia, she pretty much nailed all the mafia at some stage. In short, she has good reads. In this game, this leads to the following possibilities: 1. She is town and correct about Nova. 2. She is mafia pushing a fake case on Nova. Personally I feel Katina's presented case is fairly weak, relying on 'spam' as a central point, despite admitting to wbg it was not alignment indicative. This is why I am at the moment discounting 3. She is town and incorrect about Nova. I know this sounds paradoxical. I just feel that a town Katina would not both be incorrect and pushing a weak case. Personally I feel like option 2 is the most likely, in conjunction with her general apathy for the thread. I would like everyone to seriously think about this and give me their thoughts. | ||
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On May 25 2012 22:28 Mattchew wrote: he hasn't posted anything that made me ready to give him a green background but I don't really think he's the best lynch today also, that quote from ver isn't fitting for this situation.... noone is "someone who appears so unbelievably guilty" in this game, despite how strong you may believe your case and read on Zealos are. I mean look at all the counter examples, like acro from GoT who had a red check, from a confirmed (dead) DT. He went down swinging until his last moments (he tried so hard, it got him modkilled) This is a good point, I will rethink | ||
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On May 25 2012 23:02 Zealos wrote: @Zelblade: Can you post something useful? Well, why don't you have a read of my katina post yourself? | ||
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On May 25 2012 23:17 Zealos wrote: Obviously I didn't take part in the games you're referencing, but I'll take your word, unless you think I should read them over. Assuming you're right with what you're saying, and Katina is normally very strong with her scumreads, maybe we should be putting more pressure on Nova. Her case is pretty weak, and I'd like her to elaborate on why she thinks Nova is scum, if she really believes Nova is scum, then she should try harder to convince us to vote for him. In general though, it feels like people are to happy to see one good case and just jump on, rather than try to improve town atmosphere overall. Even if these players are town, they seem far too happy to sit back and let one or 2 influential veterans do all their work for them. So you disagree with my conclusion that option 2 was more likely, given her general posting in the thread as well? | ||
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##unvote ##Vote: Zealos | ||
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On May 25 2012 23:28 Zealos wrote: Any more posting on my part seems a waste of time at this point. Just make sure to read my filter when I flip, you'll see who needs lynching. You do realise that even if you are townie, it doesn't make you miraculously correct in your reads, right? ^^ Two things that have given me back a bit of confidence in the Zealos lynch: 1) Matt's post about Acro in GoT 2) your wishy-washyness regarding Katina there I'm kinda liking a Zealos/Katina scumteam atm | ||
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Where he was scum in SNMM X he was aggressive from the get go. He was townie in LIV and although he got mod-killed early and made practically no posts, there was one post that stands out. On May 04 2012 01:30 Zealos wrote: At the moment it just feels like we are running in circles. We seem to be very quick at voting for the first thing that anyone does wrong without really thinking about it. We need to vote when we actually have a decent read, not when someone makes an offhand remark that seems a tiny bit "off" That's what I won't be voting till a little later, when I've got a better idea of who's who. I think the Blub thing at the start was really pretty strange, but I'm not convinced it warrants a vote on its own. Palmar: I don't get why he has to post so much useless stuff. I don't ever agree with the arguement "It's what he normally does" because it just lets him hide his scumminess. So what I would say to you is; if you're town, just tone it down a bit to allow people to make useful points instead of constantly replying to random stuff you're posting. Conciliatory. Constructive. Non-abrasive - even when he's having a go at Palmar, he's actually trying to get him to post more usefully. To the part in bold: he's not willing to make a vote there and then. He wants to think about it, and make a strong read before committing to a vote. Compare to this game. 1st post: On May 21 2012 07:05 Zealos wrote: Hey everyone, I agree with a policy VE lynch off the bat gogogo. ##Vote: VisceraEyes 2nd post: On May 21 2012 15:28 Zealos wrote: I'm inclined to agree with you here. Add to the fact that the last game I played with him as scum, he was almost caught right off the bat on day 1, only for us to change last minute. Seems to like playing scummy when he's scum. ##Vote: Acrofales Another vote: On May 22 2012 23:15 Zealos wrote: Lol. Gotta say I agree, I just don't understand what he's talking about o.O Terrible town, or terrible mafia imo. ##vote: MouldyJeb Another post: On May 23 2012 00:04 Zealos wrote: No strong ones, no, I haven't had a good enough look over the thread. I'll look over everything at the end of the night, because even if I tried to make a case now it'd probably be too late to get anything done about it. I've posted 4 quotes here. He immediately votes on VE and then immediately switches to Acrofales. He later switches to Mouldy, with an excuse for deferring his scum hunt until later. Just for emphasis, compare to his attitude as town in LIV: On May 04 2012 01:30 Zealos wrote: We need to vote when we actually have a decent read, not when someone makes an offhand remark that seems a tiny bit "off" That's what I won't be voting till a little later, when I've got a better idea of who's who. It doesn't add up. | ||
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On May 26 2012 00:11 Acid~ wrote: You two agreeing with each other gain, it's like déjà vu. Zealos is probably getting lynched today. If he flips town, I want you both dead. I must say, you have an awfully simplistic view of how mafia is played. | ||
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Town should be voting with me. | ||
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On May 26 2012 00:42 Nova_Terra wrote: kk katinas not happening, please modkilllll ##Unvote ##Vote: Zealos Well done, snugglebum. (shh, is Acid watching?) | ||
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On May 26 2012 01:18 froggynoddy wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote HiroPro You die tomorrow if you are lying. Lol, what on earth is this?! | ||
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Actually I am of the mind that they are both scum and we should lynch them in turn, Zealos first. | ||
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On May 26 2012 02:11 Zealos wrote: So, as you guys know, my thoughts on day 1 were.... to put it bluntly, bad. My main first case was against acro, which was valid at the time, however, I think it's pretty clear to everyone that Marvel is a town player, so there was no point checking him. The other player I thought was a bit off was Zel. However, he was being super inactive and lurky at the time, so I expected him to be vigged, and so not worth the check. The reason I did check Hiro, however, is that he was one of the few people who didn't bother questioning me about Jeb. I stand by my decision to vote for him, but it raised a few eyebrows, and for good reason. Hiro on the other hand didn't think twice of it, and was happy to just watch us townies argue between ourselves. When he came out red, I *slightly* overreacted, hence, the moment I saw any reason to pile pressure on him, I took it, and hoped town would do the same. When this didn't happen, I subtly claimed in the hope one of the vets would see it. This is also why I asked earlier, that a vet would look over my filter and I asked "Is my few mafia traits the only thing that sticks out?" in the hope they would notice, and attempt to help me swing the votes over to Hiro. Take from this what you will. Fuck guys, come on, think about this a little. Firstly, to the bold: you know when zelblade started getting suspicious to a lot of people? The first day of the 2nd Day cycle. Why? because during the Night he said he would provide reads the next day (i.e. the first day of Day 2). zelblade at the time of Night 1 was neither that lurky nor that suspicious to anyone. Further to this, why on earth would Zealos expect him to be vigged? There were several loud claims for vig shots, most notably: me - I wanted NT shot. wherebugsgo - he wanted Zealos and Tunkeg shot. there was also mention of Katina being vigged I believe. Where in all this does Zealos come to the conclusion taht zelblade is likely to be vig shotted? IT MAKES NO SENSE. This is Mafia LI mark 2, can't you guys see that? Think about the timings of when zelblade got suspicious, think who Zealos apparently found suspicious, who Zealos made no mention of at all (seriously, his reason for checking Hiro is superweak - he didn't question me on Moudly?). zelblade was at no risk of being vig shotted. This claim is as false as they come. | ||
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On May 26 2012 02:44 Zealos wrote: Because Zel was inactive and useless to town. I would have vigged him. Also, the hiro reason didn't need to be super strong at the time, it was either that or a random. Bullshit. During Day 1 he was not inactive, he only started getting inactive later. Everything in my post stands. Hiro conveniently comes out with this case allowing Zealos to attack him for it, and they proceed to attack each other. Town needs to see that your reason for not checking zelblade is nonsense. You were at a high risk of being lynched Day 2 anyway. You have no breadcrumb on your check. This whole thing reeks. | ||
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This is Mafia LI all over again. Day 2 VE is under heavy fire. Comes out with a blue claim while bussing his team-mate. Team-mate gets infinite town credit (had the game not ended). This is what is happening here. Whichever of Zealos or Hiro gets lynched, the other is going to get massive town credit. It's so see through. | ||
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My case against him was based on large part on contradictions and lies, I don't know why anyone would suddenly believe a random claim/check. | ||
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THAT IS WHY, Matt. Because he's scummyscumscum. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:08 Mattchew wrote: marv, what do you think of hiropro There is an absolute TONNE of information waiting to be mined on how the Zealos lynch was both resisted and grew before the claim. There is also information to be had on how people reacted after the claim. This isn't me saying anyone who didn't want a zealos lynch is scum, or anyone who believed his claim is scum. This is more that the manner and timing of such things can be revealing. I have preliminary thoughts on who I think looks good and/or bad from this, but it's not the right time to share them yet before I can analyse. | ||
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What do you think Zealos hoped to achieve by claiming? Let's say for now, Scenario A: Hiro is townie. Two things can come of his claim: 1) people believe him for the moment and lynch Hiro, who flips town, and Zealos gets auto-lynched the next day 2) people don't believe him and he gets lynched immediately. So it's either a 1 for 1 (never normally good for mafia) or it's a straight up death. I haven't done it yet but the one thing I really really need to do is go back and see just how many votes Zealos had at the time he 'breadcrumbed' his check. So, at best in this scenario, Zealos is making a 50% play for a 1 for 1. Or there is scenario B Hiro is scum. Two things can come of the claim 1) people don't believe him and Zealos gets lynched, Hiro gets town credit, especially as he's been attacking Zealos 2) people believe him, Hiro gets lynched as scum and Zealos gets a butt-tonne of town credit for 'catching' a scum Further thoughts: why did Zealos choose Hiro? Seriously, think about this. The easiest way for people to believe your claim is if people believe your target is scummy. Zealos could have chosen, say, zelblade who he even made a case on. He could have chosen Nova_Terra (bolding because choosing him absolutely seems the logical play) who was under HEAVY pressure. Nova would absolutely have been the best guy to fake a claim on. He could even have chosen Katina the uberlurker. But he chose Hiro, who had, what, no suspicion on him? Did anyone suspect Hiro before Zealos' fabricated case on him? All this leads me to think Scenario B is the most likely. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:31 wherebugsgo wrote: that last post was @ VE btw, sorry. We need to consider Hiro on his own terms because arguments about whether he's scum or not in light of Zealos flipping scum are kind of wifomy. Like, if you remember LI with the Toad/VE thing, in a situation like this when a scum flips after having pushed someone else pretty heavily, you have almost no way of knowing what the other guy is except based on his own behavior. In LI that was apparent through Toad's own behavior like his own bad claim and his own lack of scumhunting. Hiro hasn't particularly scumhunted but he'll be forced to now that Zealos is dead and the main pressure is gone. So, we take this upcoming day to watch him carefully. Is he a good lynch for tomorrow? No, as we need a bit of time to determine his alignment. I would say though, that tomorrow is a great time to lynch Acid or Katina. I think you are too quick to dismiss it was wifomy. Of course it is somewhat speculative, and no we shouldn't lynch Hiro on the basis of this alone. But what is playing mafia about at its core? It is about motivations, and especially motivations behind actions. Here we have a very specific action (Zealos choosing Hiro to fake claim on) from a confirmed scum. It is absolutely necessary to think about why Zealos chose HiroPro. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:31 wherebugsgo wrote: Like, if you remember LI with the Toad/VE thing, in a situation like this when a scum flips after having pushed someone else pretty heavily, you have almost no way of knowing what the other guy is except based on his own behavior. In LI that was apparent through Toad's own behavior like his own bad claim and his own lack of scumhunting. Also, you don't really have the right to claim this. It was you, specifically you, that raged against the thread and me in particular telling me that Toad was probably town because of his 'meta'. Don't come here and say it was apparent toad was scum when you were the one who defended him most. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:45 marvellosity wrote: I think you are too quick to dismiss it was wifomy. Of course it is somewhat speculative, and no we shouldn't lynch Hiro on the basis of this alone. But what is playing mafia about at its core? It is about motivations, and especially motivations behind actions. Here we have a very specific action (Zealos choosing Hiro to fake claim on) from a confirmed scum. It is absolutely necessary to think about why Zealos chose HiroPro. | ||
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You answer me bugs - why did Zealos choose HiroPro, instead of someone like Nova_Terra? I want to know what you think the motivation behind that was. | ||
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On May 26 2012 07:55 VisceraEyes wrote: Piss off bugs, I'm just done responding to you entirely. Me and marvel are going to win this for us, because marvel doesn't have to be insulting when he speaks to people. So go ahead and freak out about whether or not I'm scum. I know you're scum, so I'm just going to wait until town sees it too and not worry about it anymore. I think you're forgetting where I swore at Matt | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:01 Tunkeg wrote: But you are wrong about marvel, he is pretty much as BM as it gets, non the less he is probably town this game. Go away. This is just a nasty lie. | ||
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a) had a warning for giving up b) called someone a fucking dick | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:11 Tunkeg wrote: You want to have WBG modkilled as well the marv? Equality or? Just for the giggles, I will explain without sarcasm. What did I do? I swore at Matt after he swore at me 3 times in a post What did wbg do? He used your own words in retaliation against a completely unfair insult from you. What did you do? You had a big strop about people being insulting, you basically gave up playing the game, and THEN you outrageously swore at someone without provocation. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:15 wherebugsgo wrote: hahaha this is fun though actually. Tunkeg actually seems mad and I didn't even do anything. It's almost funnier than when I try to make someone mad when I'm scum. Is that a scumclaim wbg? | ||
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Anyway, are we going to do some scumhunting today or are we going to wait for tomorrow? Who do people think are good lynch targets at the moment? | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:22 froggynoddy wrote: Re why pick Hiro over N_T? Perhaps because N_T is scum and though the gambit proposed by B is a risky one Zealos was already grasping at straws trying to prevent a bandwagon and such a gambit seems awfully risky. What's the risk? It's taken me very specifically pushing the idea that Hiro could be scum for it to be even considered, and even then no-one is buying it. A quite likely possibility is that in making the play they hoped people wouldn't consider or push it at all like I've done. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, the timing of his lapse into normal posting was troubling...like, the thread was in shambles because of me and bugs and his answer was.....to stop posting concisely and shit up the thread further? ... ... ... Like...I don't know, it doesn't make sense. Also his absolute certainty that Bugs being town like ALL game mystifies me considering the lengths bugs has gone to to not talk about his reads and shit. Mattchew duped me in LIII, so I am not confident in my ability to read him well. I'm not inclined to lynch him though. As you're aware, I already posted myself how 'convenient' it could be for Matt to speak in MTG and 'ride to the rescue' by posting normally. So I am aware of the possibility. At the moment I don't think it's the case though. | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:34 Acid~ wrote: Killing me for making a bad read will not help the town. Let's vig Katina and then we can lynch one of you or VE. I made my case on why at least one of you is scum, I'll dig it up and repost it in the morning if need be. Please do, I'd be interested to hear it | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote: might I add that I don't believe Katina's scum play is incredibly strong? Her town play is very very strong. She emulates Foolishness, and honestly she does it incredibly well. When we were scum in Arkham City together you recall how she played? That was her first game and for the most part she just stayed under the radar. That's what she's been trying to do this game. In games where as town she gets accused, Katina is willing to get her hands dirty. Sure, she doesn't respond nearly as much as other players, but she at the very least DOES respond. She doesn't try to feign that her posts are of quality when they're not, such as in this case. I'm not convinced that she's scum but I'd much rather kill katina over most of the other players in the game right now, probably even tunkeg. Acid goes first IMO though, he's almost definitely scum. Do you have a case on Acid anywhere? Or do you fancy summarising for me the points that show Acid is definitely scum? | ||
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On May 26 2012 08:56 Tunkeg wrote: True. I'll try to calmdown by tomorrow and be of any use. That'd be pretty cool. | ||
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I'll tell you partly why I get a town-read from Matt. We had our little tete a tete when I said he could be scum etc for his posting and coming back to normality. imo if he was scum, he wouldn't have lost his rag at my prodding and sworn at me a bunch of times. It seems a genuinely town reaction. It would have had to have been a faked scum reaction to swear at me like that, and it was totally unreasonable and I do not believe Matt is totally unreasonable even when he is making plays. | ||
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On May 26 2012 09:06 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I mean it would be all to easy to fake an angry reaction - anger is the easiest thing to fake, you just have to throw a few curse words in there and that's that. The question is: do you believe the reaction was genuine IN CONTEXT. Like, do you think he had any reason to be as angry as he did? Because believing the reaction is genuine is one thing, but it has to make sense too in order for it to be genuine. Does Matt's "genuine frustration" seem understandable to you? No, no, it's not just throwing in curse words. iirc, he said "shut the fuck up" to me twice and called me a dipshit. That's not just an angry reaction, that's specifically swearing at me in a way that he would know would be mod-warnable. If Matt is scum and did that I think it's pretty damn low, and I don't think he is. | ||
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On May 26 2012 09:13 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, you missed the point, but that's okay...I'll just go reread the exchange myself. What do you think about Katina, marv? Bugs and I have made our opinions known on the implications of Zealos' flip regarding Katina, but I don't recall your input. I'm not sure what to make of Katina's non-response to the claim issue. She could be an apathetic townie, but I'm really not sure. I've struggled with Katina. I quote below my 2 main thoughts / thought processes on her. Specifically if you're interested in Katina you should look at my 2nd post. On May 25 2012 01:42 marvellosity wrote: Yay, Nova, a case! I've quoted the part I find particularly compelling. You see, you have a veteran player who knows how to play the game, and yet is lurky. This is at least forgiveable if when they do turn up, they say something of note. But here it's: Nova spams! And her response to wbg is even worse - "I know it's not alignment indicative, I'm just saying he spammed before". Her filter is short enough that when she contributes with the weakest sauce possible, it's superbad. What does everyone else think? On May 25 2012 22:46 marvellosity wrote: I am starting to think one of Katina and Nova_Terra has to be scum. Why you may ask? It all hinges on Katina. In LI, she was one of only two players who pegged Toad AND VE as scum. Great read. In Liar Mafia, she pretty much nailed all the mafia at some stage. In short, she has good reads. In this game, this leads to the following possibilities: 1. She is town and correct about Nova. 2. She is mafia pushing a fake case on Nova. Personally I feel Katina's presented case is fairly weak, relying on 'spam' as a central point, despite admitting to wbg it was not alignment indicative. This is why I am at the moment discounting 3. She is town and incorrect about Nova. I know this sounds paradoxical. I just feel that a town Katina would not both be incorrect and pushing a weak case. Personally I feel like option 2 is the most likely, in conjunction with her general apathy for the thread. I would like everyone to seriously think about this and give me their thoughts. | ||
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On May 26 2012 09:16 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, I can't accept that with my new Zen mindstate - we look at things from different viewpoints to see if the "decisive opinion" we've already arrived at still makes sense. .....kay? I had done already (because actually I like to be thorough) and I did provoke him more than once with my sarcasm. This lines up with my previous view. | ||
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On May 26 2012 09:32 VisceraEyes wrote: There's a town and scum narrative for virtually every action that can take place. Simply being able to provide both doesn't exclude the possibility of either. Of course. But his posting I found consistent on the matter. If we took your view literally everyone would be suspicious all the time. The burden of proof lies with proving someone is scum, and my point is that in this instance I can easily read all those posts from townie Matt. The Occam's Razor answer is that Matt was deeply uneasy about lynching a dt claim. | ||
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when I looked at Zealos' meta. As town he absolutely rejected placing fast votes, wanting time to think and analyse before placing votes. Here he threw out 2 votes immediately in 2 posts. Occam's razor says the two games he is playing different alignments. | ||
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On May 26 2012 09:39 Tunkeg wrote: Probably. But from my point of view it seems scummy. I think he wanted to play the concerned town role, but I think he overdid it. If he was dead certain Zealos was town and had indicated it before I might have bought it. But remember his vote was on Zealos just before the DT claim, so he should be in doubt. And I don't think a doubting townie would push this much for either side, he would vote, give his reason and let it play out. Okay, fair enough that you think that but I don't subscribe to it. His vote was on Zealos despite previously it being on zelblade and saying he wasn't at all sure on Zealos. He moved it to Zealos with the comment that he was doing so because VE/me/wbg believed him to be scum. This was not a strong read on Zealos. It makes sense to me that Zealos DT claiming was easily enough for his opinion to sway back. People get very, very passionate about blue claims. Hell, in LIII I was town and I absolutely crusaded for VE's lynch after he blue-claimed day 1. Turns out I got him lynched, turns out VE was in fact blue, turns out I was townie. | ||
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On May 26 2012 16:48 Mattchew wrote: As for Tunkeg's case, it is literally just a recapping of what I did before the lynch (taking 1 post out of order) and then having only 1 opinion on 1 post (which was a question to the mods). Also, he brings up this post + Show Spoiler + On May 26 2012 03:08 Mattchew wrote: heres where im baffled about you voting zealos, if he's scum like you think, hiro is scum too. if hes not scum, your lynching our detective, while you coulda been lynching a red-checked hiro Sorry Matt, I forgot to reply. Basically my theory is that Hiro is scum and they were bussing to get whoever wasn't lynched town credit. But as others have pointed out, this does not have to be the case by any means, it's just what's in my mind at the moment. I voted Zealos because he was the scum regardless of my little bussing theory. I had 2,3 or however many cases on why Zealos was scum and none on HiroPro, so naturally I was going to vote for Zealos. | ||
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On May 26 2012 19:09 Tunkeg wrote: Zealos, froggynoddy, Mattchew, Tunkeg, VisceraEyes, Acid~ These are the players that voted for HiroPro after the DT check. Zealos, Mattchew, Tunkeg, Acid~ are the players who didn't change their vote. I am certain there is at least one scum among the 5 that isn't Zealos, who either voted and switched or voted and stayed. VE I am scratching, same with froggynoddy (even if I am sold on him being town yet). Tunkeg, why are you scratching VE from the possibilities? | ||
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This isn't the case. Zealos was getting lynched before he outed his claim because a lot of people believed he was scum. Hiro did not have a single vote. I don't get in which world this is 50-50 | ||
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On Zealos/Hiro: Earlier I have been suggesting the idea that Hiro is scum and Zealos/Hiro were bussing. This remains a distinct possibility imo, but having read back on the thread and timings I am less convinced than I was before. Zealos hadn't had all the votes piled on to him yet, so it wasn't yet necessarily the case that he was going to get lynched (I feel the Zealos/Hiro both scum theory works best if Zealos was definitely getting lynched). I am now inclined to believe another possibility - Zealos breadcrumbed the DT check simply in case it looked like he was getting lynched later. That way he at least had a possibility of dragging a townie down first before he got lynched, which would be a decent result. This seems consistent with how it went down - he brought up his claim to the thread at the point where everyone had decided to vote for Zealos after all, so he activated his last-ditch ploy. Anyway, both these scenarios are still possible, but I wanted to talk about them both. The question that needs to remain in people's heads is: Why did Zealos choose HiroPro? Because even in the 2nd scenario, he could have selected someone else like Nova_Terra or even zelblade, and had a likelier chance to take them down first before he died. About wbg and VE: We all know wbg and VE do their own little thing in the thread, and it's remarkably hard to pierce it. Nonetheless they do need to be looked at and so I will do so a little. On wbg: It seems like he helped push the Zealos lynch with me, and a lot of his posting has been strong and makes sense. There's a couple of things I don't like though: On May 25 2012 03:07 marvellosity wrote: This point is valid, and is one I've alluded to myself. I dislike posts such as these: The first one is at best arrogant and at worst an abdication of scumhunting responsibilities. The 2nd... well actually yes, I would like to see the cases and reads myself, and it shouldn't be contingent on whether the Zealos lynch 'takes off'. I expect to hear from wbg some more during this cycle on his reads. "I want the rest of town to do the work" or "people don't read" isn't a good reason not to present reads and cases. At the moment the way he's posted doesn't have to be scum, but if he continues to refuse to share his reads/cases, this will change. Those kinda posts rub me the wrong way. Note how wbg says he doesn't want to give reads because town isn't listening, or wbg says that he'll post reads on 2 people 'later', or generally how wbg talks about not giving away information because giving reads is giving information to scum. Fair enough as a stance, perhaps, but it doesn't line up with On May 26 2012 08:29 wherebugsgo wrote: I think the only person who's talked about reads more extensively than I have this game is marvellosity. So wait... on one hand wbg repeatedly talks about giving reads can often give information to scum, on the other here he claims he talks about reads more than almost anyone else. These two sentiments do not make sense together. On May 25 2012 03:56 wherebugsgo wrote: alright, this is not going anywhere. Day's almost half over and if people aren't willing to consolidate on zealos then we consolidate on zelblade. He needs to post anyway. Vote with me, marv. ##unvote Zealos ##vote Zelblade. I also really did not like this. There's like 30 hours left in the day and he already wants to 'consolidate' on to another player where the only case is he was inactive. It's one post that really made me sit there and think "wow, really?!". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On VE: At the time of Zealos' doctor claim, I was especially interested in how VE and wbg would respond to it. The response I disliked most by far was from VisceraEyes. After the claim, froggy, Tunkeg, and Mattchew voted for HiroPro in quick succession. However, I would expect VE to give the Zealos claim some critical thought, especially as he has been suspicious of Zealos before. But what do we get? On May 26 2012 02:36 VisceraEyes wrote: Gogo timely-claim!! ##Unvote Zealos ##Vote HiroPro Nothing but a blind vote switch. No analysis on why it could be true or false. The suspicious part of me thinks that VE was behind Zealos' fake-claim, and then in the thread it looks like town is lapping it up so VE feels safe to carry on the trend. It is simply very odd that he just vote-switched like that. Bear in mind his vote here came before I started seriously attacking Zealos' claim. He goes on to explain his switch IN HINDSIGHT (rather than at the time) with what I consider some fairly weak reasoning: On May 26 2012 04:03 VisceraEyes wrote: The worst that can happen is 1 for 1 unless Hiro is a miller or scum pulled a massive frame. I'm not buying either of those explanations...so I'm voting Hiro. Please remember that a lynch is imminent, we're in no danger of a no lynch and your opinion DOES matter. He doesn't buy that scum could massively frame? What, like him/toad in LI, it's so unlikely? And still no analysis of why Zealos' claim is likely to be true or false. But all of a sudden his opinion changes with some bullshit reasoning, and he goes on to quiz Zealos on why his claim is true and what not. But imo, too late, the ship has sailed. On May 26 2012 04:11 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay wait...Bugs is scum right? He's this big fake-claim advocate as scum... Mattchew I'm gonna go with my gut here instead of my brain...surprise surprise right? ##Unvote HiroPro ##Vote Zealos What kind of reason is this? bugs is scum and he's a big fake-claim advocate? This is the weakest sauce possible for switching votes. Like seriously, look at how ridiculous it is. And look at how *hypocritical* it is. scum is this big fake-claim advocate? To bring it up again, it was VE's plan in LI to fake-claim as scum and bus his team-mate. Everything is wrong here. | ||
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On May 26 2012 22:40 VisceraEyes wrote: What I find the most interesting is that you came in here and posted half-assed attacks of me and Bugs now, when you're about to leave, but yesterday when we would have had time to respond to this stuff you had no interest. I mean, I get that it was late, but you had PLENTY of posts yesterday before you went to bed between the observations you just commented on and when you when you left the thread. If "Everything is wrong here" then why not mention it then when I could respond? Because to put together the last post I had to 1) go back and read the thread where where Zealos first breadcrumbed 2) go back and read the thread at the point Zealos revealed his claim properly 3) looked through wbg's and my filter to put together my thoughts on him 4) looked at your filter in conjunction with how things went down in the thread These things take time, and today is where I found that time. Do not try to discredit what I say because of when I posted it. | ||
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On May 26 2012 22:40 VisceraEyes wrote: As far as your analysis of my actions Marvel, to be fair I hadn't gone back to analyze the claim at all, as you say, but when I did I realized the truth immediately, and gave the only actual analysis of WHY he was absolutely lying. Add to that the fact that I was, along with Bugs and you, one of the first today to put any pressure on Zealos and I would say that not quite EVERYTHING is wrong. So what if you were vaguely suspicious of Zealos early on? Scum are quiet happy to vaguely bus their team-mates, and you did so before I made the first major case on Zealos. As per my last post, it is the timings of how you responded to the claim that I find most suspicious. You went back to analyse only after I had heavily attacked the claim, and of course at that point it's very easy to argue for the switch. The fact is at the time when the wagon was growing on Hiro, you happily joined it with no critical thought. That is the pertinent point. | ||
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On May 26 2012 22:57 VisceraEyes wrote: That is a soft claim...a breadcrumb is like...him hinting at his action BEFORE he makes it so.that if he dies we as a town can guess at the actions he took...he did no such thing. Why are you picking at wording? I was just saying that is the point of the thread to go back and read. Call it whatever the hell you like. | ||
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On May 26 2012 23:00 Acid~ wrote: I meant there was a 50-50 chance Zealos was scum and a 50-50 chance Hiro was scum. Yes, and my post there shows how that wasn't the case... | ||
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*grumbles at being killed but nonetheless takes it as a compliment* gg go town, you can do it! | ||
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So I was right about Zealos, Katina, AND Hiro? Fuck me. | ||
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ROFL, thanks, that just put me in a good mood after the Redux business | ||
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