EPTBut I'll make sure that the guy I want to lynch is the best guy to lynch anyways.
TL Mafia LV - Page 2
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Toadesstern
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But I'll make sure that the guy I want to lynch is the best guy to lynch anyways. | ||
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mostly the fact that he's posting super manipulative while talking about stuff that is easy to say as mafia as well, which is not an alignment tell at all but it looks like contributing. He's not making a lot of sense when talking, contradicts himself a little every now an then (or than idk, german lol) while quoting nice posts to completly ignore the "contribution" out of the post and just talk about the 2 lines that are utterly useless which again looks like contribution but really isn't. But I'm only on page 15 so far and apparently typing with a band-aid on your finger is really hard to do, so I'm having typos all the time when I try to reach for the right side of my keyboard... | ||
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On May 28 2012 05:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Worst case, you lynch the guy you want to lynch, are removed from the game, town probably losing a player based on the proportion of town to scum, and scum get a free round of night actions. So, town ends up losing 4 players and the mayor role for free. How's that not that bad for town? For the people who want to put you as the pardoner, that's just as bad. If a lyncher/assassin gets put into the role of pardoner, then expect scum to try to bribe them when one of them is about to get lynched. Something along the lines of "Pardon my lynch, and my team will shoot your target", or something like that. Again, we lose a whole cycle to the pardon, and then we're left with either a lyncher we either need to suffer through spamming in thread, or we lose a day of discussion lynching him. A pardoner lyncher can also at any point hold the lynch hostage unless we kill his target, again leading to a round of free kills. Also, you never answered my question about why you were scared of dying on Night 1 or 2. The player list suggests you're not the highest priority target for scum, and your own insistence of being hard to read suggests scum would leave you alive as you'd be a magnet for suspicion. Finally, I find it odd that you're trying to downplay the impact of a Lyncher/Assassin being elected rather than denying that you're one of those roles and trying to show otherwise. I am trying to show otherwise but that needs time and I can't come up with an awesome lynch out of nowhere so from my point of view I either ignore you or talk about things I can already talk about in the meantime. Do you want me to ignore you instead? I can do that as well. About why I think I'm going to be shot early on: I got shot n1 last time and I claimed mason this time. I think that makes me a high priority. | ||
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On May 28 2012 05:49 kitaman27 wrote: Lets end the discussion right now. Toad is our pardoner. It's the best of both worlds. It ensures we don't have a scum pardoner, which is the more dangerous of the two roles and it protects us from a mayor lyncher. If you're town toad, then great we denied the role. If not, then we don't really care if you would prefer mayor. denying that role is utterly useless. A mafia can't use it before LYLO or he's dead. Both mayor and vice-thingy are highly likely to die early on, at least mayor for sure. Even if mafia gets that role they can't use it because they're trading it for a 1v1 which I am happy to take. Why is everyone so scared about the pardoner. That role is completly useless no matter of alignment. | ||
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On May 28 2012 06:05 Sinensis wrote: OMGUS means Oh My God U Suck, not Oh My God U Scum. Saying half of someone's posts are "trolling or retarded [sic]" is an OMGUS. omgus'ing is "he called me mafia therefore he has to be mafia" as far as I know. @Supersoft: What about the zealos guy? yeah I agree that defending me when a townie usually wants to get reactions troughout the game is a bad sign. A townie would want to see me defend myself because even if they think I am town they could be wrong and more reactions is always nice. But it's only a minor thing. It's a bad thing to do, especially early on but I don't have any reason to believe he's someone who wouldn't make that mistake as town and therefore has to be someone trying to buddy me or whatever else the reasoning might be. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [#1] + On May 27 2012 11:55 EchelonTee wrote: I'm running for Mayor. Why? Because I'm never suspicious as scum, and always suspicious as town. I would never in a million years run for mayor if I was scum. You might say "Oh, he's trying to WIFOM; this is him actually being scum, running for this shiz". I would say that's slightly logical, but let's be reasonable; I could easily destroy all of you without needing to be mayor, if I was scum. Am I running off of a high from Liar Game Mafia, where I crushed a plethora of legendary scumhunters? You bet it. Another point to notice; the mayor and pardoner do not get bodyguards. Usually, the purpose of the mayoral election is not so much to control the lynch, but to protect your strongest scum hunters. Since there are no bodyguards, putting someone like [insert vet here] into that spot is just asking for them to be shot up, if they aren't scum that is. What I will do as mayor is be open and forthright, not do a lone wolf lynch. If it turns out that I look way too fcking townie, then I'll get shot by scum, and that's NBD; I'll have done enough by being denying scum the initial lynch, and taking a bullet for better townies. Last thing; I never ignore the newbies. You'll see a bunch of people run for mayor who will be like "I'm bad as scum, good as town, so I'll lynch right and this will all be good kk", but only I will actually consider cases put forth by newbies and actually judge if they have merit. While I might not be the best at hard scumhunting, compared to other players in this game, I pride myself at being able to separate "bad townies" from "newbie scum". Some examples of that are FourFace in TL Mafia LI and gumshoe in Surprisingly Normal VII. Tons of people were calling for vig shots, lynches, etc. and I just said STFU, they are townies. Let's focus. In summary, since the mayoral election does not confer protection, it is more optimal to elect someone who is open, aggressive, and tranaparent, but not necessarily the strongest town player. Therefore, I think I should be mayor. I'll do a standard scumhunt (build a case) to determine the initial lynch. #1 reads as: You can never lynch me. If am am townie I am suspicious therefore I am a townie! If I am a mafia I am not suspicious, therefore you don't lynch me. If I am suspicious because I'm not suspicious I'm actually suspicious according to my logic, therefore you can't lynch me. Funny thing is I once said the exact same thing but it was d1 and I was semi-trolling. However, he doesn't seem like a troll. #2 reads as: If I lynch a townie I'm sorry but I'm not accountable because I did what the majority wanted me to do! #3: That's really manipulative and really, is he the only one that will look at the newbie cases? He makes it sound like there's some people ignoring cases because they're nooby-cases. People ignore cases because they're along the lines of "he is bad, therefore he has to be mafia" which is just wrong. Also I don't need some minister for newbies who tells me what case has some merits and which has not. + Show Spoiler [#2] + On May 27 2012 12:14 EchelonTee wrote: A note: I will be slightly less active in this game then I have been in other town games I've played. This doesn't mean lurking at the standard I set in JubJub or Liar, but I won't be nearly as active as I was in MTG Mafia. I feel that it did not work the greatest in that game (game not finished, will not discuss further). Sure, this is probably a notch against me to be mayor, but I thought I would just put it out there. If you prefer an active mayor, vote for VE. I hear he's easy to read. What would be the reasoning for a townie to post something like that. I don't need someone to post some excuses some hours into the game. If you're away for a day or something, awesome, post that because we want to know about that game. If you want to change your style in general post that before the game started like I did in C9++ #2 because that post looks so bad. It's overtransparent when he really should now that it's looking fishy for the excuse-part. So the point of that post is to be transparent when noone cares about something like that. Why would he want to be that transparent. I don't need him to tell me when he's going to the toilet either. + Show Spoiler [#3] + On May 27 2012 12:30 EchelonTee wrote: You're smart to consider the scenarios, which bodes well for this game. Consider that the pardoner will have some amount of town-cred, to be elected in the first place. To save their scummy lynch mate, they would have to out themselves. Not a very good play, unless the person they are saving is a stronger PR role than themself. I actually kind of wonder how Pardoner is a good role at all, to be perfectly honest. The more dangerous role is the +1 vote that the mayor has. If a scum gets voted as mayor, they could potentially live til LYLO, which would be instant GG. It is extremely vital that a townie gets voted to mayor, and slightly less so important who is pardoner. #1: Is what I consider being manipulative #2: Is fearmongering. Come on... A mayor with bodyguards never makes it into LYLO because he's lynched or killed well before that. Just think about your last election-based game (unless it's holyroman, caller games don't count) and think about how long the mayor lasted. And he's scared about a mayor without bodyguards lasting until LYLO? + Show Spoiler [#4] + On May 27 2012 16:36 EchelonTee wrote: Come on BH, he's a newbie. You're acting like a TLMafia brat, threatening to call in the host, which is also unproductive to the discussion. You post gifs and pix of you eating hats all the time, so his reference to your trolling isn't wholly inaccurate lol. Continuing, do you think grush's posting thus far is scummy? If yes, then how so? On May 27 2012 15:43 Blazinghand wrote: Please do not state that I post like a retard or a troll half the time. I find this offensive and unproductive to our discussion. It is also inaccurate. I take this game very seriously, and your implication that I do not is troubling. If you continue to insist that my posting is retarded and trolling, I will complain to the host. So your initial reasoning for why you wanted the role, as you wrote it, was: But now it's Were you lying then or are you lying now? Why is he quoting that part but completly ignoring the rest? BH may or may not have valid points, that's up to you but those points are ACTUALLY USEFUL and something to talk about. Yet he picks the only part of the post that is completly useless to town and talks about that and again, it's really easy to talk about issues like that for both alignments. + Show Spoiler [#5] + On May 27 2012 17:06 EchelonTee wrote: The State of TL Towns It's no secret that TL Towns have been in a state of disarray. Unfortunately, none of you know my alignment so you will be forced to take this post with a grain of salt, but hopefully you will be able to take my words in and see them as logical. This game is starting to unfold how many typical games have gone thus far. A small handful of posters come out strong; evenly divided between strong, veteran personalities and newer, eager to play people. Mixed inbetween these people are obviously a few scum, but what inevitably happens is some newer player slips up, and then the hounds come into slay the newbie. Some people argue "don't lynch X, they are town"; others argue "why the f*** are you defending this terrible play". Meanwhile, scum can prod on these easy mislynches and cruise to victory. This is generally how a mafia game should unfold; however, the issue lately has been that cases have been built solely on stuff like "this guy is fcking bad. he is SCUMMY", instead of analyzing motivations, actions, or agendas. Meanwhile, discussion that happens around the lynches is just downright embaressing. People going around saying "you haven't contributed shit", "you're a dipshit", etc. Often what I see said about other players is something like "Yeah, I don't think Y is scum, but he's an asshole". Because of this, loads of townies are completely unmotivated to post, because why post when people are going to shout at you, calling you a dingus? The reason why scum are allowed to lurk like crazy isn't because we aren't being aggresive enough; it's because we aren't fostering a positive enough attitude. After reading a lot of newbie games, there are logical disconnects for sure, but one thing stands out that our games have been lacking: they are actually fucking nice to each other. They build cases based off of other people's posts. They consider everyone's view points and don't go all rambo. If you want a breath of fresh air, read a newbie game. So, what am I actually trying to say with this stupid ass block of text? PLAY NICE. DONT BE EGOTISTICAL. I am not insulting anyone who has already posted; I am more so alarmed at the amount of people who haven't posted. And unless we encourage posting, encourage cases, people aren't going to post shit. tl;dr - Everyone usually thinks that town's #1 priority is scumhunting. While debatable, IMO the #1 priority is create a stable town atmosphere. To that end, encourage discussion, don't stifle it. I don't by it that he's THAT frightned about the town atmosphere. That's again so easy to post from a mafia point of view and it looks like you are contributing a lot while it's so easy to do. Yeah he might have a point but he focuses on that A LOT. There's basicly nothing else in his filter + Show Spoiler [#6] + On May 27 2012 17:39 EchelonTee wrote: I'm done arguing with you BH; it's clear that I have been patronizing in more than one way, but I hope you see the points that I've tried to make. Let's just cool down and reapproach things, ok? Using the lynch on grush at this point is actually not as bad of an idea as I first thought. D1 lynches are hard as fck, and taking out someone bad isn't a bad plan. However, I can't agree with it for two reasons: 1. grush hasn't proven to be completely anti-town thus far, and 2. in a 30 man game, I think a D1 lynch intended to shoot at scum is possible. I would rather go for a case that can produce more discussion/controversy (controversial lynches work better towards determining alignment), and a lynch centered around grush would merely be a conversation of "well, is he bad, or BAD?". Going to play Dota 2. Nighty night. So policy lynching isn't bad because it's so hard to lynch mafia d1 but we should lynch mafia d1 because we have a good chance to lynch mafia d1 in his opinions? + Show Spoiler [#7] + On May 27 2012 17:50 EchelonTee wrote: People read this if you haven't please. It's not content heavy, more so a plea for people to play nice and, you know, post more. Forumite, it's fine. My opinion on that is that it's candidate dependent, aka if Pardoner's support, or Pardoner himself seems scummy, lynch away. It shouldn't be an autolynch, because it's not as anti-town as say, a suicide vigilante or a CPR doctor. More interesting though, is that in elections, often one of the top3 vote receivers is scum. I remember in TL Mafia L, where Mayor=BC(town), Pardoner=BM(scum). So it's something to consider. I totally disagree. These elections are a joke and only the mayor one is of any use if you really think you are good d1 as townie. There's no bodyguards in this election so comparing them to other games really sucks in general. The statement "withing top3 votegetters there's usually a mafia" is totally out of place considering the no-BG thing and people probaby expect the elected roles to die early on (not d1 all the time but early on in general). + Show Spoiler [#8] + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336250¤tpage=16#306 And I have again that feeling that he's trying to look helpful rather than being helpful. That post is so over the top. I'd give him a decent chance to flip mafia right now but I'd like to see him posting more because I'm not sure if he's really the best case yet but I find it troublesome that people consider him a good option right now for nothing other than his "I care about noobs"-posts. | ||
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"by" = "buy" and stuff like that lol It's getting late and the band-aid really make typing really hard which frustrates a lot and therefore I don't doublecheck stuff because it already takes ages to post something like that. | ||
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On May 28 2012 06:53 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Dammit toad wtf is with the contradiction? First he's "most likely to flip mafia" then he's "I'm not sure if he's really the best case yet." Here's a tip, if you're gonna analyze someone and you get halfway through and realize "oh shit he's not as scummy as I thought" then do this, save your analysis in a word doc and wait and see what happens. If you continue to get bad vibes then revisit your case, if the person cleans up their act then your second guess turned out to be right. But please don't make cases like this. This case looks to me like you're testing the waters to see who else will jump on an ET lynch. This case just screams neutrality. If ET gets lynched and flips town then no one can point fingers at you, you just link them this post and say "well he looked kinda bad but I didn't think he was the best case." This is just super wishy washy but it also looks as if you're contributing by making "cases" on people. If you're gonna go after someone, then do it with conviction, don't hide behind qualifiers. You didn't help my initial impression of you toad. na I'm saying he's looking the worst out of the players that are posting right now and I don't mind posting it because it could very well happen that there's someone else tomorrow who's looking worse. And I'm saying "not sure about him" because I'm not sure about him and want to hear your opinions about why he is only talking about useless stuff while ignoreing the good parts of a post for example. | ||
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On May 28 2012 06:55 VisceraEyes wrote: Also please be aware: this is exactly the same type of play that sandroba made in C9++ that Toadess cohosted. Sandroba flipped Mason because he's baus and the situation was relevant for that game...the situation is totally different here, because if I'm understanding Toad correctly, he CHOOSES who he masons with. This is huge because what if he chooses Mafia and he's town? Obviously the scum would go along with Toad's claim and "confirm" him, but imagine the implications. Toad is using the Mason mechanic, which actually WAS alignment-relevant in C9++, as a means to "confirm" him, not the other players. But that makes you put trust in who he masons with too, whether consciously or not, just by virtue of him being in contact with "modconfirmed Toad". This role is not one that I want in possession of any additional power. I do not want Toad to be Leader or Vice-Leader. The chance for manipulation is too great. I can deal with manipulation, believe me :p And even if I end up picking mafia, who cares that's a no tell about their alignment as you already figured out yourself. | ||
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On May 28 2012 07:06 VisceraEyes wrote: Because they could get you to do something stupid like lynch a townie or pardon a Mafia or something Toad. You're running on a platform of independence, right? That means you have to be held accountable for your actions, but here's the problem: if you're in contact with a really good Mafia player like Wiggles or Forumite (<3) who end up being mafia and they convince you to do something like pardon a lynch of a mafia, you can't like - backpedal and say "Well guys, really I was talked into it by XYZ" because the whole point of what you're saying is that you want to be held accountable yourself. So we lynch you and you're what, a Mason? So now what? No, I'd rather just not even take the chance. Next game bro. that will never happen because I only get to talk to people once d2 has started, as already pointed out, therefore I am not being manipulated via QT. Maybe people are trying to manipulate me in here but everyone can see that as well and again I thin I'm good at dealing with manipulation because as mafia I'm really manipulative as well. Not so much with arguments but rather with making people believe something based on emotions and wording. So I think I can deal with that. If I get pardoner I will NEVER EVER use it. Simple as that and there's no need to talk about this because every townie should treat it as that, unless maybe you're getting lynched yourself. So no manipulation there either. Also I have a super secret I haven't told about my super awesome powers which works against manipulation. So long story short: I don't thin I'm in danger of being manipulated. | ||
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On May 28 2012 07:18 VisceraEyes wrote: I disagree, and we'll leave it at that. I'm well aware of how our arguments balloon. I still want town to not vote for Toad, based on the risk involved alone. I want a pardoner who we can lynch if he uses the power improperly. It's a tool that should be used if the situation arises and I think denying it from Town is borne of the same paranoia I'm sure to be accused of for thinking Toad will be manipulated. == there is no risk involved. If You are scared I'm a lyncher fine with me. But there is no risk involed when talking about manipulation and I have a good damn reason to say so. And if I ever use the Pardoner, NO MATTER WHAT (unless you guys want to lynch me :3) feel free to lynch me because that will NEVER happen and again I HAVE A REASON to say I'm not going to be manipulated so for christs sake just trust me once. I know you don't like trusting other people but you seem to post like you take me for a townie and not a lyncher yet you don't want to vote me or want someone else to vote me because of that manipulation crap. It's not going to happen, EVER. | ||
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On May 28 2012 07:39 jaj22 wrote: Ugh, AC flashbacks. I'm not really feeling this ET case. The main arcs seem to be: 1. Manipulating newbies by... promising to listen to them and not just dismiss them as useless? Fine by me. Wish everyone did that. 2. Overstating the importance of the elected roles. True, but I'm not sure how this is a scumtell. 3. Not having much in his filter apart from mayor-agenda. Yeah, because it's all from three hours into the game. Not that ET's filter is squeaky clean (the part where he draws BH away from strongandbig is particularly interesting), but as you should have noticed, it's tough to campaign without doing anything suspicious. On that note, I'd be surprised if scum made much of an attempt at the elections. Without bodyguards, the risk (from campaign scrutiny) surely outweighs the reward. I think only the most ballsy scum players would bother. 1) is not manipulative toward newbies but towards everyone else. 2) well It's a mior point if he keeps ignoring contribution and talks about non-isssues instead 3) yeah agree About the last phrase: I'd say we should definitly look into people running for election without having a serious chance or without taking it serious. BH and Sinensis come to my mind on that matter because noone is going to vote something like that although it looks "brave" to troll like that because they'll get heat for that either way. So I agree, if someone is in that grey zone of "I am running for mayor" but isn't really that would be something to look for as well. On the first phrase: What alignment did I have in AC? :p | ||
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On May 28 2012 07:46 Toadesstern wrote: 1) is not manipulative toward newbies but towards everyone else. 2) well It's a minor point if he keeps ignoring contribution and talks about non-isssues instead 3) yeah agree About the last phrase: I'd say we should definitly look into people running for election without having a serious chance or without taking it serious. BH and Sinensis come to my mind on that matter because noone is going to vote something like that although it looks "brave" to troll like that because they'll get heat for that either way. So I agree, but if someone is in that grey zone of "I am running for mayor" but isn't really that would be something to look for as well. On the first phrase: What alignment did I have in AC? :p EBWOP | ||
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On May 28 2012 07:52 grush57 wrote: If you guys are unsure about Toad being pardoner, I'm fine with being it. I won't use the "POWAH." why are you more likely to not use the power than I am when we both said we won't use it? Is your word better than mine for people who don't know what your alignment is because I look like a mafia? Surely the discussion right now is either lyncher or town for my alignment. I mean it's completly wrong to assume I'm a lyncher but let's just take it for granted for a second: Do you think a lyncher would ever use that power? No he wants to survive as long as possible to gets his lynch target lynched and doesn't care about someone else. Why would I use that power as lyncher? That would lose me the game instantly. | ||
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On May 28 2012 08:01 grush57 wrote: Yeah, but your supposed to be mason. If your lyncher, then it would be perfect for town. However, you claimed Mason day1 for no reason at all >.<. You said "if you don't trust Toad make me Pardoner instead". Why shouldn't we trust a townie? Should we rather trust a mafia instead? The mason has nothing to do with a possibility of being a pardonar AT ALL. | ||
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On May 28 2012 08:10 grush57 wrote: 1. I said if you didn't trust Toad I'm fine with being pardoner. 2. You should obviously trust a townie, but we don't know that for sure for your case because you have been anti-town in several of your posts and claiming Mason for no good reason. 3. No. 4.Yeah obviously it has nothing to do with possibility you vote the VP. You just said if I am a lyncher I am perfect for the role, not that I want it but that's what you said. You just said that if I'm a town mason that's awesome as well because I'm town. Those are the 2 options right now. Either way I'm good for the spot, the only thing that makes me bad for that thing is the fact that I don't want it lol. Do you honestly think a mafia would claim like that? Sure I could understand a lyncher but a mafia? or a SK? What do I do once people see I survived more than 1 cycle. Be all like "looool guyses, I'm modconfirmed townie but I chose not to talk to someone" ? And no I can't be RB'ed. | ||
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On May 28 2012 08:22 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Don't dip into wifom like that, it doesn't suit you. Also, why is being mayor so important? If you really are town you should understand why some people may be hesitant to elect you, but at the same time willing to give you pardoner since (as you correctly state), you should be able to confirm yourself by day two. We've pretty much established that pardoner is a dangerous role, dumping it off to you makes a lot of sense because we can then know for sure by day two whether you're scum or not. Your continued pursuit of the mayor role is odd. I'm dead n1...I want to take a mafia with me before getting shot in the face. And @ET I know it's not a good case but you're someone who says a lot without doing something at all. You are saying stuff that's a null ALL THE TIME or talking about stuff that is really easy to talk about. That doesn't necessarily make you mafia yet, but it makes me wonder why you are talking about that stuff instead of something actually useful and trying to stop BH when he actually tries to contribute. | ||
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