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On May 01 2012 09:27 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 09:24 chaoser wrote:
here, let me ask a question to you radfield. What's the difference between people in the minority and the majority? Minority can't die right? Why would you take away a threat to a player like that? It makes no sense.
If you have a system in place to make it so that round 2 proceeds in an orderly manner then everything works out perfectly. I sent this to WBG already but I'll post it here as well.
for round two, it's based on whoever has the lowest points will be lynched right? so I was thinking of basing it on a gradient system. Most scummy, no points. We then have the rest pass points in a system following the player order.
so lets say it's like 5 people in the majority and 1 person in the minority. that's 25 points. lets say we think a is mafia. so the players are a, b, c, d, e, f
we think f is townie so he's in minority cause we need one. we move onto round 2.
b gives all his points to c, c gives all his points to d, d gives to e, e gives to b. If we all circle then a will have zero points. even if mafia was trying to save a, the two teams members would have to give 6 points total to save him. Because of the circle system, there's no way a can make back the deficient with his 5 points for both his teammates; one of his teammates will be adjacent to someone without 5 votes. That person is also mafia then.
f will be giving his votes, spread as evenly as possible, into the crowd of b, c, d, e. If things look wrong then f is suspicious.
WBG suggested to me that we do it so that everyone only cycles 4 votes and they give their one vote to whomever they want so that accountability would be an element and I agree. There's no way a would be able to get out of this situation unless his teammates out themselves. pro shit. I would have come up with this an hour from now so I'll just take credit for this.
this is where we ##drink
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gonzaw, foolishness first came up with that idea well before you did.
my only real contribution has been disseminating it via PMs and suggesting that we introduce an element of accountability that otherwise would not be there.
In other words, if we were to assign all five votes for everyone, and they were to sheep along, we would get no information about who they believe is actually town. However, if we instead only assign four of those votes, the general gist of the plan is still followed but there is a small element of accountability introduced that requires players to justify who they think is town.
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also I don't understand why in your plan the people who are in the minority can vote whoever they want.
They might be exempt from lynch but that doesn't exempt them from being mafia or being accountable to the same things everyone else will be accountable for.
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On May 01 2012 09:52 gonzaw wrote:
To be honest...I just copypasted it from the manga so it's not like I "figured out" anything >_>
I know that suggested plan, but the point is that nobody will unanimously determine 1 player to be lynched. So if someone thinks that player is town, they will just give him 5 votes to try to save him.
If there is a very obvious scum then yes it works, but I think we can come up with something better, like some in-game voting system that's used to determine who votes who and stuff.
so in other words, you're apparently pissed that certain people are "bickering," you are apparently concerned that chaoser is not putting forth "original" ideas, and that we have to come up with something better, yet you are content with adding more bullshit to the thread, like this and your previous post?
This is what I meant by "I hope you don't play the game the same way you did LI or I'll end up subconsciously ignoring you."
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Please hold your votes for a few hours at the very least.
also: cool, since sandro is in the majority, I propose we kill him.
Points of concern:
1. This is a PM game, and bar Palmar/syllo, everyone I have asked "have you talked to sandro?" has answered no.
The players who have told me they have not talked to sandro include Radfield, chaoser, Foolishness, and BC. In addition, he's ignored two PMs I've sent him as well.
Why would a town sandro only talk to Palmar/syllo in a PM game? In SS mafia sandro was active in PMs with everyone as town. In PYP:I he had token activity in PMs as scum and chose to ignore me for a while as well.
2. From the logs I got from Palmar between himself and sandro, it's apparent that sandro is indifferent to the game, and what syllo/Palmar said about their impressions look to be true. Sandro chose to ignore Palmar's question about what he thought about chaoser (he instead chose to simply
3. He's mostly had no involvement in the thread either, and has not been concerned at all with anything that would really help town.
I recall he suggested this:
On May 01 2012 01:46 sandroba wrote:
Yes, anyone saying Palmar can't control everything is not actually thinking about this. If someone doesn't have the last word it is impossible to control round A. That someone does not always have to be the same person. We can adapt and change it up on following rounds if need be.
I'm already thinking about round B and I think the optimal way is to claim all votes and spread them across your top 5 town reads from the pool of 10 players left. That way is the hardest for scum to save their dude and provides the most information. That's because scum can provide at max 2 votes on their teamates to make them avoid being lynched and scummy dudes will end up being lynched on average.
which on even one read is clearly antitown.
If everyone votes their top 5 town in the pool of 10 players that we have, chances are incredibly strong that there will be at least 2-4 people who will receive next to no votes.
These people will likely be town, because scum can always find reasons to vote their buddies. It will be the less popular townies who will die, not the actual scum.
In addition he comes back and says this later:
On May 01 2012 03:26 sandroba wrote:
@foolishness There will never be a consensus on whom to kill especially if said person is mafia. It's reasonable to assume even a few townies will have a wrong read on and will end up defending scum. Also afaik only the vote tally will be available, not who voted whom. How exactly is that going to work in practice?
Only way I can think of is that we get compliance from everyone beforehand, that they will agree to follow the voting scheme if they get out-voted (we do the traditional voting to see who will be lynched). Then we propose a unique voting scheme so we can identify who didn't follow it (each player votes for a unique combination of players).
If some townies will defend scum then of course some townies will end up putting scum in their top 5 town lists!
By his own logic sandro shouldn't be following the plan he proposed, yet in PMs with Palmar he claims it's a good plan and is curious as to why Palmar doesn't agree with it.
If anyone finds sandroba to be town please speak up and outline your reasoning. Otherwise, I believe that we should be killing him today.
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no don't do that sheth, please read the thread.
Don't place votes yet; we want four votes on one person and one somewhere else.
This ensures that only sandro will die and no one else.
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On May 01 2012 13:41 VisceraEyes wrote:
Wait, I want to be walked through why "we're" doing a circle-jerk here. I need to know why people think that it's a good idea, and I need to know what they hope to accomplish with it. I've been reading the thread, so please don't ask me to go read it again. I can assure you, I'm reading it as you read this.
I'm preparing a post on who of the available lynches I do not wish to continue playing with and why. I hope everyone, regardless of how they intend to spend their votes, will do the same. Time is short, and I want to be informed.
because it's pretty much the only effective way to ensure that only one person dies, and at the same time hold people accountable to who they believe is town and why.
In addition out of the available lynch choices I am confident that sandro is the most likely to flip scum.
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On May 01 2012 14:30 VisceraEyes wrote:
I mean, it looks good with 1 person in the minority - it fails to expand on how to proceed with a minority of like 8 people. All you say on the matter is "See, I told you" which doesn't explain anything chaoser. As far as I'm concerned, with 8 people in the minority, the cycle isn't viable. Am I wrong?
what the hell is the difference whether there's one person in the minority or five or eight?
The idea is to kill one person, the plan isn't much more complicated than that.
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why does it have to be spread out, Foolishness?
I guess it doesn't really matter that much, but I think that we should at the very least incorporate something that brings in some semblance of accountability. Did you see what chaoser and I discussed?
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alrighty. I suppose I'm fine with that.
I'll make a spreadsheet with the votes so that we see who has claimed what and how many votes have been placed where. This way if there's some kind of discrepancy later we can kill the people responsible.
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On May 01 2012 13:41 VisceraEyes wrote:
Wait, I want to be walked through why "we're" doing a circle-jerk here. I need to know why people think that it's a good idea, and I need to know what they hope to accomplish with it. I've been reading the thread, so please don't ask me to go read it again. I can assure you, I'm reading it as you read this.
I'm preparing a post on who of the available lynches I do not wish to continue playing with and why. I hope everyone, regardless of how they intend to spend their votes, will do the same. Time is short, and I want to be informed.
I'm so tempted right now, I actually want to kill VE with sandro.
If you take a quick glance through VE's posts, you'll see a whole lot of mostly nothing at all. VE constantly talks of scumhunting and really does none of his own. He calls syllo scum for being "overly aggressive" (which is not a scumtell for syllo) and he calls me scum for not telling him who I thought was scum at a juncture where talking about reads very openly would have been rather dumb. He also calls chaoser scum; not sure why, but it could be because of any of a number of factors (for example, because other people said so)
Also, he says he'll explain why he's called the three of us scum if any of us show up in the majority. Note that the explanation for chaoser was never given.
Finally, there's this:
On May 01 2012 13:41 VisceraEyes wrote:
Wait, I want to be walked through why "we're" doing a circle-jerk here. I need to know why people think that it's a good idea, and I need to know what they hope to accomplish with it. I've been reading the thread, so please don't ask me to go read it again. I can assure you, I'm reading it as you read this.
I'm preparing a post on who of the available lynches I do not wish to continue playing with and why. I hope everyone, regardless of how they intend to spend their votes, will do the same. Time is short, and I want to be informed.
I'm pretty sure VE was never preparing a post on who he was okay with lynching and why, because it never came. Indeed he somehow became "okay" with a sandro lynch despite never once mentioning his name or addressing him before, and suddenly chaoser dropped off his list of suspects. In addition he provided no reasoning for anything he had posted, unlike what he had promised to do earlier.
If anyone disagrees with this let me know and why.
+ Show Spoiler +hopefully I'm not setting myself up for a thread bomb/tantrum here
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Update:
Sandro told me he was at a party and he'll reply soon.
Here's the exchange:
Ve is a good bet, he seems pretty likely to be scum. I'm also slightly suspicous of sheth and mz, but not sure at this point.
Original Message From wherebugsgo:
How should we kill people in phase B?
judging from VE's behavior I would not be at all surprised if he and sandro are actually on the same team. IF we lynch two people today, it should be VE and sandro together IMO.
VE saying "I'll give you my reads after I flip" is pretty much the best way to claim scum (trololol)
Also Ace why are you saying you're going to vote yourself? You're not in the majority. Care to weigh in on whether you'd like VE and sandro to die?
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On May 02 2012 04:54 prplhz wrote:
ah, storm mafia, where wherebugsgo just randomly pointed at me 10 minutes before deadline and then i died. yea i was on top of my game back then.
fun fact: this is the 16th game in a row that i have been town. last game i was scum was in XLVII when i requested it. not counting requests (requested town in election mafia too i think) then i'm on like a 20 game town streak. beat that. always town never not town QED.
rofl the way you said that is hilarious. To be fair kita made that case on you and I thought everyone would listen to him so I switched wagons :p
Anyway if you expect to live very much longer you need to help find scum or do something at any rate. Who needs die today, and why?
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Syllo, we should be more careful than that.
We need to ensure that scum cannot influence the vote by breaking a tie easily.
Say no one votes Cephiro and he's town, but VE+sandro are scum. They can simply vote themselves or even each other to live.
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Ncm you can't vote yourself, but it's still possible to easily save someone in that situation.
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someone needs to explain the chaoser case.
He's been thrown around as a suspect by a few players (notably Foolishness, Palmar, syllogism) but there's been no real justification for it.
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On May 01 2012 15:12 VisceraEyes wrote:
Actually - don't answer that. It doesn't even matter.
I'm giving my votes to Radfield, Sheth, prplhz, Cephiro and MrWiggles. Do whatever the piss you want with that. I'm fine with a Sandroba lynch.
Original Message From VisceraEyes:
I'm saving Sandroba. Lick my balls scum.
So much for that shit
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On May 02 2012 08:50 Cephiro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:55 Palmar wrote:
How is it in any way beneficial to fuck with me if you're town. Seriously, fuck you, you're being dumb.
Let me put this another way: How is it any way beneficial to work together with you if you're scum. Seriously, fuck you, go look in the mirror. (<3 the mirror image posted by Meapak) Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:57 Palmar wrote:
this game is stupid, arrogant and dumb townies or mafia are fucking with me and it's boring.
I'll spread my votes on anyone that isn't cephiro, chaoser, VE and sandroba I think. mostly gonna make sure rad and prplhz stay alive, probably wiggles too, he seems towny enough. So, you start the game by claiming yourself King and moving on to asking everyone to claim to you. Sure, we're arrogant and dumb for not blindly believing in you. I'm sorry my lord, but if you want respect, earn it. If you claim to have the power to get me killed today, and all the other stuff you talked about, why would you care about a few dumb townies? Use your power oh mighty king. Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 06:13 gonzaw wrote:To Cephiro:Dude, I don't get wtf you are doing. Like really. People ask you reads and you start bickering about how you don't need to post them and you are "waiting for the right time" or some shit. Then, you accuse Palmar's "allies" (I guess you mean syllo) that they leak info, and when asked to justify yourself, you go on to spout some mystical bullshit about how "telling you the obvious wouldn't be fun" and shit. Really, you seem to act like Chezinu and those other guys that troll the hell out of games. But why the fuck would you troll this game if you were town? You can't say "Oh you can't use meta because good players change their meta". ...if you are town and play good you don't need to change your meta. In fact, being town you NEED to stay to your meta so people (even those "retards that use meta" (hyperbole here) that you talk about) have it easier to figure out you are town. I can't see any reason why you would willingly change your meta, or act different than it if you are town, specially since you played very good in that game as town; and now you are playing like shit, creating chaos with your bickering, not giving any reads or reasoning behind them, and just running around trolling people. I don't find any town motivation for you to act this way, so I still think you are scum. I'd like people to avoid voting you. Also, wtf is with this? + Show Spoiler +To everyone using "meta": What on earth is wrong with you people? Are you seriously saying that the TL players are so poor that you can just metagame them? How about playing based on what people do this game instead of comparing it to other games. I am starting to get fed up seeing the words "based on meta" come up in every few posts. Okay, if you don't like using meta yourself, then fine, don't use meta yourself. But are you really undermining every use of meta? Are you really saying that every player here is a "Mafia God" who can change metas as they will when they are scum and fool everybody 100% of the time or something? Players here can make mistakes or play badly every once in a while. When they do that as scum we do find them using meta. Why are you against this? Are you just going to assume everybody in this game is Akiyama or Yokoya and that you need elaborate plans and shit to catch them? Do you really think that or are you bluffing now to avoid doing anything constructive? If someone thinks Cephiro is town, please state why you think so. If you really think the correct way for town in every situation is to play "calm and analytical", you're playing the wrong game. The "Basic Handbook Townie", is nowhere neal optimal play in several cases, and there are various valid reasons why one shouldn't. Again I repeat, if you think that or cannot come up for the reasons why, you're playing the wrong game. So tell me this, is it easier to change up your meta to deceive others, or is it easier to read the meta of another player with full certainty?Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:18 EchelonTee wrote:RE: The gonzaw/Cephiro back and forthOn May 01 2012 08:10 gonzaw wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Cephiro:Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=183812http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#84http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#87I found this odd, because you started very aggresively. There were some good plans (mine) floating around, and you behemently opposed them. The point is that you didn't come up with any of your own or try to generate any other discussion. You inserted doubt into plans and just bickered about them, you didn't come up with content of your own. Well, maybe honestly you thought those plans were bad, so that in itself wouldn't bother me. However, you post this: I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass. You are giving the usual "People stop discussing policy lynches/plans/shit and start finding scum!", yet I don't see you following your own advice. When someone asked you for your reads, you said "At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you.". What? You said we should try and find scum, but you don't want to contribute your reads? You started very aggressive and "keen" to find scum, but you were inactive for some time later and when you came back you didn't put any effort into doing so. I know how you can play as town Cephiro, I observed Death Factory and you were contributing and making plans like crazy. Being this aggresive and indifferent to plans is unlike you. The two bolded parts are the significant parts of gonzaw case, and ones that I find to be pretty true; Cephiro was initially active but since has done no scumhunting. This is especially ironic considering his response: So simply because I was on when the game started and opposed a few plans I was initially active and did scumhunting? No. I have since done no scumhunting? False. Just because I don't scumhunt in the way I did in one game, or in a way you expect me to, does not mean I am not doing it.
Unless something drastical happens, my votes today will be split between VE & MZ.
wtf why are you wasting votes on VE?
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On May 02 2012 09:15 Cephiro wrote:Because I don't think he should die yet.
and yet you've offered no alternative?
I like how your reasoning is "because he shouldn't die yet" and not "because I think VE is town."
you have no balls, scum.
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EPT
