TL Mafia LIV

On April 22 2012 08:12 froggynoddy wrote:
Hey NT, won't let you kill me so easily this time :p

On May 03 2012 14:51 Sinensis wrote:


I can't help but think grush57's move was too dumb for town to make. "2 dumb 2 be scum" isn't a pardon. It doesn't even make sense.

On May 04 2012 05:16 Sinensis wrote:


Looks like some random dude voted me because my post screams "I want to look useful to the town without actually thinking about what's going on. [sic]"

I like how he mimics the post he has a problem with by explaining himself with the same mock style I use. I don't care about his snap vote at all, let him be useless for all I care.

On May 04 2012 07:19 Blazinghand wrote:
Clearly grush is going for the "too dumb/bad/newb to be scum" tactic but I will not be swayed by such tickery!

On May 04 2012 14:57 Blazinghand wrote:


1. I've been here on TL Mafia for about half a year. I've played in nearly a dozen games of Mafia. I argue a lot on the internet in general. You might say I've seen a lot of arguments. I mention this to be absolutely unambigous when I say: this is some of the worst logic I have ever encountered. I suggested it's a scum tactic. That scum use. Too dumb to be scum isn't a valid argument, and the FACT that I say it isn't a valid argument can't MAKE it a valid argument. I don't even know how to interact with you after a phrase like that.



2. That's the same thing. Not posting scumreads = not having scumreads. The town benefits from conversation. You were not helping.


3.This is a fair question. Allow me to explain: sinensis made this post:+ Show Spoiler +

In this post he calls out Panda, explains his vote on grush, and says panda is a scumread of his. In this singular post he does more than you have done all game.

This doesn't mean Sinensis is necessarily town. But he contributed a butt ton more than you did.



4. I don't care WHAT your reason is for not posting much. I don't care if you're butthurt, or if you're too busy having dinner made for you by your mom. It doesn't matter, it's not relevant. What *is* relevant is this game. To win this game, we need to talk. You haven't been talking. You still haven't posted a legit scumread. Currently your most aggressive pressure on sinensis is:



5.Are you serious? You think that's helping? That a phrase like THAT will pressure him into responding to allegations? That's so waffly, so utterly useless, so inconceivably deprived of utility, that I can't even say you've done anything this game.

Anything at all.

Scum.

On May 04 2012 22:58 Mementoss wrote:
BH, I agree with most of your points on Nova Terra I actually had the same notes as you did. His response today was also lackluster. In the games I played/observed with when he was vanilla town he was all over the place trying to push discussion. I think his "im intimidated by vets" is just an excuse for him to lurk and post when it feels convenient. Not committed to saying anything solid, stuff like I don't think hes scum for sure, and I'll keep him in the back of my mind. It could be a situation where Nova rolled scum.

Not committed to saying anything solid, stuff like I don't think hes scum for sure

It could be a situation where Nova rolled scum.

On May 05 2012 06:00 Mementoss wrote:
I expected to come back to people actually voting, and people posting why they are good votes. I come back to 10 people still haven't voted with an hour left, and everyone in the thread just posted one liners about names out of a hat who to vote, without any reasoning at all.

On May 05 2012 06:00 Mementoss wrote:
I expected to come back to people actually voting, and people posting why they are good votes. I come back to 10 people still haven't voted with an hour left, and everyone in the thread just posted one liners about names out of a hat who to vote, without any reasoning at all.

On May 05 2012 06:09 layabout wrote:
Nova, i think it illustrates how pissed we should all be that 10/26 players in the game didn't feel like it was worth voting before now and that a number of them are likely to be modkilled

On May 05 2012 06:31 Kenpachi wrote:
ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING ME? DO YOU NOT NOTICE THE TREND HERE?

NT i thought at first was not mafia but then layabout cames along and throws in POLICY LYNCH TIME
NO
NO
NO
WTF? NO

i believe layabout and NT are mafia together because NT NT had aroused suspicions in thread andended in hotshit. He was completely saved by something so stupid. layabout, as his buttbuddy saves him with such a weak push that only the newbs are following.
by experience, policy lynch almost always never works. its a scare tactic, not an actual method used to lynch people, especially day 1
i also believe marvellosity is mafia with them because he said NT is scummy and changes his mind like nothing happened




such a contradiction, they were made about 3 hours apart.

BM is a potent player and everyone knows that. I feel day 1 lynching a veteran is the worst thing you can do. If i were mafia, id put BM near the top of my priority list just because of his sheer experience.

On May 05 2012 06:56 Blazinghand wrote:
OH WAIT DO WE HAVE A CHANCE TO KILL N_T NEVER MIND WE'RE GOING BACK TO HIM

##unvote
##vote N_T

On May 05 2012 07:01 Blazinghand wrote:
Also, happy birthday

On May 05 2012 07:01 Blazinghand wrote:

I hope you die

On May 05 2012 07:02 Mementoss wrote:
Happy Birthday Nova_Terra

On May 06 2012 07:41 marvellosity wrote:


There are moves to fuck with you (a la Risen) and then there is saying one thing and doing the other (as with layabout this case). Imo these two scenarios are not the same.

Re f5-ed the thread to see BH's comment - fuck you, sweetheart.

To your final question - I don't know. This is why I've prodded l10f not so long ago. Sinensis and Eiii are not far behind on who I'd like to hear a lot more from (sinensis for general quietness, Eiii because for his own reasons doesn't like talking at night, so I want him to talk more during the day).

while I'm here, Nova hasn't provided any further commentary on who he finds scummy. Personally I get where he's coming from in not wanting to push something when he hasn't got anything solid, but having stated he had reads it'd be pretty nice to hear them.

Summary: nope, no bigly strong scumread at the moment. wanna hear more from people i've not heard much from, because at the moment i only have anti-scum reads (layabout, grush)

On May 07 2012 04:59 Mementoss wrote:


Considering your doing about as much as him why not vote you?...

This seems familiar to another lynch that just happened, hmmmm BM townie lynch?

On May 07 2012 04:50 marvellosity wrote:
I'm starting to really dislike Nova_Terra. BH just pointed out that he hadn't posted in about a day. And looking at his filter, we have a whole stream of one-liners before that anyway.

A day without posting and we get this:



Just nothingness. What I don't get is that he had a 'big' case on Mementoss where he reels off a bunch of whole things about why Mementoss is scummy. Except he's basically completely willing to abandon this read because he doesn't like a Kenpachi connection case. It's fair enough not liking connection cases, but to abandon your top read over it?

Also looking back this post is just smelly



Reads as: "I don't wanna post. I don't wanna post. Kill the people who don't wanna post".

After the point I criticised him for not giving his reads, he subsquently gives Mementoss, then has a go at Kenpachi, a bunch of fluff, abandons case on mementoss, afks for a day and a one-liner on Kenpachi. I do not like at all.

On May 07 2012 05:13 Blazinghand wrote:


One a scale of Bill_Murray to 10 how serious are you right now? This isn't helping you, or the town.

On May 07 2012 05:12 Mementoss wrote:


And you're purposely playing anti-town? :S

On May 07 2012 04:56 Blazinghand wrote:


This is not acceptable.

Not even close.

You might have slipped past my D1 but not any more. Now you die like scum.

##unvote
##vote: Nova_Terra

Defend yourself or die like a punk

On May 07 2012 05:27 layabout wrote:

But you have time to tell us that you don't have time to post?

On May 07 2012 05:28 marvellosity wrote:


Indeed, and multiple times at that. These responses have just helped firm up my read.

##Vote: Nova_Terra

On May 07 2012 05:35 Sinensis wrote:
People were quick to agree that layabout was scum, but they are even quicker to agree that Nova_Terra is scum... probably because Nova_Terra is an easy target with his "I don't have time to make posts that aren't scummy" attitude.

On May 07 2012 05:39 Sinensis wrote:


Jesus man you call that a defense? Defense implies defending yourself, not incriminating yourself.

On May 07 2012 05:40 Sinensis wrote:


WELL IF YOU THINK THAT THEN YOU ARE WRONG :D

On May 07 2012 05:52 marvellosity wrote:


Would have been quite easy for me to bandwagon you on day 1 instead of BM though, wouldn't it?

On May 07 2012 13:31 Blazinghand wrote:



That's not sufficient reason to unvote, typically. What if NT is legitimately playing like some horribly scummy game?

On May 07 2012 13:37 Kenpachi wrote:
lawl. excess mafia i guess.

been busy and decided to abuse that by making no posts to bait a scum.
gg i asked for replacement

On May 07 2012 13:51 Blazinghand wrote:


You're trying to hide and I called you out. Seems pretty obvious...

On May 07 2012 13:52 Blazinghand wrote:


That's basically what you're doing already...

On May 07 2012 13:55 Blazinghand wrote:


Yeah it does! You realize your actions are indefensible so you make some dirty, dirty appeal to IRL and asking for a pass. I'm not a teacher, I don't give out hall passes, you gotta earn them yourself by being useful.

And you're not.

##unvote
##vote: Nova_Terra

On May 09 2012 06:33 Blazinghand wrote:


Oh, another promise of some analysis in the distance future by N_T. I'm so moved.

On May 09 2012 06:36 grush57 wrote:


You're the scum not him how should he know.

On May 09 2012 06:39 Blazinghand wrote:

Scum.

On May 09 2012 06:49 Blazinghand wrote:


KP calls you scum:
+ Show Spoiler +

You respond to it kinda noncomittally, mostly with a "WTF".
Then:

Then:



As you can see, this is a low-effort counter-bus. N_T doesn't post a case, making it an OMGUS to KP's bus.

N_T answer my layabout question please.

On May 09 2012 07:05 Blazinghand wrote:


Ah, that's interesting, May 9th Nova_Terra! However, I have another player here who disagrees with you.

His name is May 7th Nova_Terra! You should argue with him:

On May 03 2012 10:15 papapanda wrote:
My guess is that grush is semi-lurker and just have been reading/agreeing/sheeping with what information that has/hasnot been posted by you.

At first I would've have passed off the blue/green slip from blubbdavid as misreading because I can imagine myself accidentally misreading/mis-pronouncing blue/green. But from his defensive post i have to be a little suspicious.



It is reasonable to vote for blubb if no one else comes out with major slip-ups, and the town has to lynch someone.
Otherwise I would sit back and wait for N1 or D2 when more information might be available.

Me is hardcore BLU!

On May 05 2012 05:23 papapanda wrote:
Blazinghand:
I hate to be stepping into your line of fire, but I didn't find NT's post to be as bad as you make it sound like it is. Actually, I found that many of the points he made was very similar to the ones I tried to make.

I agree with you on "too dumb to be scum" is not an argument at all but I also do not believe grush to be scum, even though he isn't helping much (blubbdavid, I said this in my previous post but this is basically all my thought on grush as of now).

In fact, I share NT's suspicion of sinensis, and I assure you this is not just OMGUS. My original comment was just to get him to further explain his vote because he actually didn't say anything before his second response. I was shocked at what I believe to be an over-defensive reaction, one that might be coming from having something to hide, from sin. Given, he did provide sufficient evidence of reasoning, but he's accusation of me can hardly be called a read(from yourself, blazinghand).


I am still undecided on a vote. I have some gut feelings about a few persons but no evidence to base that off of.

On May 10 2012 04:52 layabout wrote:
froggynoddy you are now confirmed town
so my scumteam is in here:
grush57
l10f
Eiii
papapanda

On May 10 2012 05:26 grush57 wrote:
Though none of them died so they couldn't flip scum, however it is pretty clear they are all town.

On May 10 2012 05:44 papapanda wrote:


I made a neat compilation of all your post into a word document and counted your words to be 2653. I excluded all text in quotes. This data is up to this post.


I also made one for myself, ofcourse excluding all text in quotes, and the count is 2213(not including this post, which has 280 words).
4 pages? 4 pages of spam maybe.



I was not neutral on Blubb at that stage of the game, your summary of my post is very underrepresentative. It should be"I thought he misread, but his defense made me suspicious." I didn't think that was enough evidence to lynch him ATM.


I would like to remind you that I did, in fact, post afterwards when I realize that I would not miss the deadline.



No, I couldn't make a solid read because I didn't have enough information. This is your read:


Seems to fit yourself better then mementoss. solid? No.



Keyword is last section is "Agree". Yes, I will admit if I am seeing a player agreeing all the time, it raises some suspicion that he is trying to stay off the radar. However, this is how I talk/post; if you want I can try to change that but it might/not work. If you feel like this is enough to lynch me, I won't pressure you for more reason, but I want you to seriously reconsider.
I think I have my two scums in layabout and marv. While I am definitely keeping my head up for other suspicious people, this is where my focus lies.

If you want to find someone with little posts, look at sinensis.

On May 10 2012 05:46 Sinensis wrote:
N_T your "analysis" post makes me feel like we are playing a different game. No one is going to vote papapanda today...

If you're scum why didn't you deflect attention onto an easier target like layabout? Is layabout your scum buddy? Why didn't you deflect attention onto layabout anyway, do you think he's town?

If you are town and you have been suspecting papapanda for a while now, why didn't you say something about it before everyone was on your back asking for contribution? You could have at least mentioned you were suspicious of him and that would have counted for a small contribution.

On May 10 2012 05:26 grush57 wrote:
Though none of them died so they couldn't flip scum, however it is pretty clear they are all town.

On May 10 2012 06:06 papapanda wrote:


What I said was it was too early for any case to be solid.

No worries, layabout:p

On May 07 2012 05:41 layabout wrote:

You are full of crap

[1]ways like what exactly? relying on the calimed vig in the hopes that we have an engineer and they picked refill ammo and life over doctor? relying on having a blu demoman that has placed bombs on the players we want, and then manages to get themselves killed? relying on red not having a medic that can counteract these night hits? The lynch is the most reliable way to kill players if we decide to. There are so many lurkers that we cannot grant them immunity from the lynch on the grounds that "our blues will deal with them" as you are doing.

Would you have us ignore scummy players that are lurking and lynch elsewhere?

If BM had been the only death 1 we would be in a similar position to most towns that ever were having mislynched a townie day 1.

[2]The candidates we had when i opened the thread where grush57 5 votes and then a few people with 1-2 votes. The votes were spread out. I thought and still think that grush is town. Lynching a "lurker" was the best move we could have made+ Show Spoiler +

[3]???
Let's pretend that you didn't post this:
which describes the information gained from lynching me, after you emphasized the value of information.

You want to kill me because i pushed a lynch that didn't give us much information. Boo fucking Hoo. That is not the point of a lynch. You lynch to kill scum. When you are desperate you might lynch a lurker (who has a chance of flipping scum) over player that are active or that you have town reads on.

[4]He is dead isn't he? I got the lynch onto him, and i would do it again. I am also going to shamelessly hijack Palmar's reputation by pointing out that he supported a BM lynch and he flipped VanillaTown/Blu Team
+ Show Spoiler +

[5]"questionable defense?"
i think ghost summed it up here:

*ghost tragically forgot this later on when other people suggested killing me.

[6]You will weep tears and become the laughing stock of the entire forum!

On May 07 2012 07:07 layabout wrote:
Can somebody other than me adress why the above post from Eiii is wrong so that instead of just arguing with each other i can pretend that you don't exist and play the game and he can not post at me?
i will even get you started:
contradiction:



comment which has nothing to do with what i wrote:





so we should kill lurkers by means other than the lynch.


whoever gets the most votes dies. always, the lynch kills people, whoever it targets dies It is reliable killing mechanism.
Vig shots can be blocked by red & blue medics and engineers (medics), and red roleblockers(syies and blu heavies (veterans). An unreliable killing mechanism.


Since we had an awful chance of lynching scum (spread out votes, weak cases, limited discussion, nearly everyone was afk and the leading candidate looked green(blu)) I went into last resort mode and tried to get us to lynch BM.

You then called me scummy for pushing a lynch that generated limited information, when the very concept of lynching for information has been agreed upon by this sites best regarded players as a bad town play that you can take advantage of as mafia:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301748
+ Show Spoiler +

guess i got carried away. The introduction is a bit hateful. I think i will just edit it slightly.

On May 10 2012 04:52 layabout wrote:
froggynoddy you are now confirmed town
so my scumteam is in here:
grush57
l10f
Eiii
papapanda

On May 11 2012 05:49 layabout wrote:
Eii would be my pick for the scum other than grush.

He has a similar (pityful) post count to l10f but within it a different agenda is clear.
I do not wish to re-start my argument with him but a quick glance show that whilst that was one of many posts from me. The argument with me was the thing that Eiii felt deserved the most time and effort.
Then after making it clear that he thought i was scum (and arguing with me even though most of the guides here tell you not to argue with the person you are pushing as you do not need to convince them) he follows me onto blubb.*

now his vote for blubb was strange and is one thing that makes him look like town as there was no real reason for him to switch as scum. The problem with this point is that mafia are aware of that and might deliberately do it
+ Show Spoiler +
Look, if anybody is guilty of not scumhunting, trying to fit in and copying the opinions of others it's him. I am not sure that he is scum. But if he is town then he needs to pull his head out of his rear and start playing.

On May 13 2012 18:51 Eiii wrote:


man this whole situation kind of sucks. It's impossible for me to tell if NT is just playing really really badly (suggesting lynching for information when it's been EXPLICITLY mentioned in this game that that's a horrible idea) on purpose to try to solidify his newb town claim or if he actually just has no clue what he's doing. wifom wifom wifom. weird black-and-white statements like this

are pretty retarded too, but it's the same deal there.

obviously I feel l10f is pretty scummy at this point, since he's been attacking me for actions I've done that I can't really see as scummy. Between his overnight shift into pushing me as #1 scum as hard as possible, providing arbitrary lists and calling them 100% objective, then manipulating those lists to try to get people to accept them... I dunno, it feels like he's trying to disrupt and take control of town as much as possible which is pretty sketchy when we're so close to lylo.

My late-night snap decision on the subject is that we really, really can't let plays like N_T's stand. If we still had vigs then he should outright be shot instead of lynched, but it looks like we're out of those. voting for NT.

On May 14 2012 04:45 Blazinghand wrote:
More imporyant than reads are cases. Ad someone noted "appeal to autbority" is not valid. Try to post case and reasoning. Supplement and link/quote existing cases

On May 03 2012 12:23 Sinensis wrote:


SWEET A BANDWAGON IS FORMING! I think I'll hop on it without explaining myself!



NEVERMIND, they're onto me!

##vote: grush57

I was not expecting to have a vote so early this game with all the people.

On May 05 2012 14:14 Sinensis wrote:
My suspicious is off grush for now because of D1.

I want to talk now about layabout and why I think he's suspicious.



You spend a lot of time defending Katina, you also say the only way she is suspicious is "the way in which she puts attention on BM." You defend her again here:



You also ask what other people think of SomethingAwesome's "BS." I think SomethingAwesome might have been onto something honestly. The first thing you said in the entire game was that you were AGAINST policy lynches and that "they are no better this game than they ever were before"



You then completely disregard your own advice not to policy lynch (below) and vote Bill Murry, who Katina was supposedly suspicious for bringing attention to. Also, if you're not even going to follow the advice you posted not to policy lynch... what was the point in posting that in the first place other than to look like you were contributing when you really weren't?



So you think killing SomethingAwesome could be a good move, presumably because you think he's scum. But instead of building a case around SomethingAwesome, you decide to vote BM based on meta.



Who are you to decide if there "is no real candidate?" There were plenty of people with plenty of reads at the time. You even repeat this:



Then you repeat it again:



Last thing, there is no such thing as an anti-town town member. If someone is town, just by being alive they are helping town. Killing an "anti-town" town member is still killing a town member. Killing town players because they "aren't useful anyway" or "are anti town" is scum logic.

On May 06 2012 06:18 Sinensis wrote:


I don't like basing decisions on meta, but I can say having played with BlackRaven in the past... lots of confrontational 1 liners is par for the course for his town play. I am null on him at the moment and I believe there are better targets at the moment.

On May 07 2012 05:35 Sinensis wrote:
People were quick to agree that layabout was scum, but they are even quicker to agree that Nova_Terra is scum... probably because Nova_Terra is an easy target with his "I don't have time to make posts that aren't scummy" attitude.

I am still probably going to vote layabout today but at the rate things are going, I wouldn't mind hitting Nova_Terra if consolidation needs to happen. Papapanda is a lesser priority right now, but people should still have eyes on him.

On May 07 2012 10:32 Sinensis wrote:


Can you not read? I'll read it for you.

It means I don't like basing decisions on information outside of the game... but that having played with mattchew/D before lots of confrontational 1 liners seems normal for town play. I go on to say that I am null on him and that there are other priorities to consider first.

On May 07 2012 17:49 Sinensis wrote:
I'm going to flip a coin. Heads is layabout, tails is NT:
.
..
...
Looks like it's Nova_Terra
##vote: Nova_Terra

On May 08 2012 12:44 Sinensis wrote:
If either layabout, NT, or ghost isn't dead by morning I will be disappointed.

On May 10 2012 05:46 Sinensis wrote:
N_T your "analysis" post makes me feel like we are playing a different game. No one is going to vote papapanda today...

If you're scum why didn't you deflect attention onto an easier target like layabout? Is layabout your scum buddy? Why didn't you deflect attention onto layabout anyway, do you think he's town?

If you are town and you have been suspecting papapanda for a while now, why didn't you say something about it before everyone was on your back asking for contribution? You could have at least mentioned you were suspicious of him and that would have counted for a small contribution.

On May 10 2012 12:08 Sinensis wrote:
Layabout keeps making compelling defenses... I am suddenly hesitant to keep my vote him. Especially since N_T is in the game; who hasn't made compelling posts to say the least and who hasn't put forth nearly as much effort.

The more I think about it though, nothing N_T does benefits scum... or town... or himself, so I am struggling here too. Do I choose the guy who talks nicer (layabout) or the guy who helps the enemy less (N_T)?

On May 11 2012 12:22 Sinensis wrote:
Sorry about that layabout.

I would like to talk before night ends about some people I think are getting a free ride, that don't deserve it. I am anticipating focus being on grush and N_T, but there are two others that need some looking at.

First I will look at papapanda:



Went ahead and bolded everything I have a problem with. This is his first post in the whole thread. What is see is a paranoid mess. Papapanda uses a slash every time he says something serious because he wants to make sure he has covered all his bases/been as nonspecific as possible/has chosen the best sounding/most town-like voice possible/see why this is convoluted and a horrible way to express yourself? Your scum team probably told you to cut it out with all the wishy-washy slashes after your first post, and you appear to have listened as this is the only time you talk like that. Also, never while playing town seriously would I ever say I am "hardcore town." You don't need an adjective to describe how town you are unless you aren't town.



He was neither, and this question accomplishes nothing.



Makes apologetic face. Apologizes. Apologizes again. Claims to be noob. Scummy.



After I vote for grush, papapanda decides to call me out... or something... saying I am suspicious of sheeping Blazinghand if I change my vote? Uh, whether I am sheeping Blazinghand or not (I wasn't), what does changing my vote have to do with anything?



Yeah, I probably wouldn't like stepping into BH's line of fire as scum too.

---

Lets look at the BM lynch, you didn't support it:



You're against it again:



Against it again:



Starting to see a pattern? You're against lynching BM again:



But wait, what now?



Apologizes, apologetic face, suddenly BM is a good lynch?

Once BM flipped town, you explained for vote for him... but not the sudden switch:



HERE IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING; so you believe mafia lynched BM because they had a plan for lynching veterans who are slightly inactive, i.e. easy targets? I know I saw something like this in the thread the day before, let me see if I can find it again:



So the way you see it is that when there are two suspicious guys, lynch the veteran (i.e. Bill Murray)? That doesn't make any sense to me especially since you are a new player here and have no way of knowing who the vets are, not to mention it is not town-like to vote someone just because they are more experienced. I have never heard a town player say "We should lynch HIM because he has MORE experience!"