EPTTL Mafia 'Area' LIII
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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On April 16 2012 08:13 BlazingJitsu wrote: It's been a while! looking forwards to another game together. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hEstq.png) -Blazinghand Just a thought - you probably don't need to sign your post if you're including the funky pictures :p | ||
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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On April 18 2012 11:16 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: There we are. Sorry bout that. Good start  | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 20 2012 19:00 iGrok wrote: Are you shitting a unicorn? Shit, I was at work when I read this, you bastard :x | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 21 2012 09:02 Mattchew wrote: so my teammates are + Show Spoiler +? Mattchew, I thought we were gonna have a long, happy, and romp-filled relationship, then you make me click on multiple spoilers. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 21 2012 09:58 Mementoss wrote: I agree with johnnywup I dont think this is productive or the time to talk about this hypothetical stuff. For all we know there is no vigs or trackers. Ya never know, could be 3 jailkeepers. You can't assume which roles are in the game. What? The vigilante-godfather-miller-weirdthing is the only strange mechanic in the game. Before things get properly rolling is absolutely the right time to talk about its implications. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 21 2012 10:25 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually, a vigi only really clears himself by shooting a GOON. Hitting a GF will result in WIFOM about what happened to his shot (GFs are night-kill immune). Right, so scum could claim their shot was blocked on some random townie and WIFOM it up. Gotcha. So, are there in fact any GOOD circumstances to make a vig shot? | ||
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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That said, my one-liners didn't come across overly helpful. I've just read through the last 7 pages of this thread I've missed and I'm still trying to wrap my head around the vigi business. My one-liners were one-liners because I haven't had time to grasp the issue at hand yet. Anyway, I'm going to play around in notepad with this vig business so I can actually take a stance and get back to you in the next few hours. | ||
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marvellosity
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From reading a few filters, it seems that a couple of people have arrived at the same conclusion as I am about to - whatever merits gonzaw's plan has, it's kinda pointless if it isn't gonna be agreed on by everyone, and by this stage it's clear it's not going to be. I am glad of all the conversation that's been had on the matter, because it means going forwards people will be able to critically analyse flips and night kills, so if nothing else that's a positive to marker. One thing I didn't like about the whole gonzaw - VE exchange was VE's pretty bad breakdown of gonzaw's plan. It seemed to amount to this - if JK doesn't agree with the plan, then the plan is bad. But... the whole idea of the plan was that everyone agreed to it, so the JK was obviously on board, it was a terrible criticism. Looking further into VE's filter, I didn't see any further substantial objection, and he went forward to accusing gonzaw for his 'scumslip', which was at best minor, and can generally be read as unimportant. To MidnightGladius (and VE because he will understand due to being involved with me in Newbie VI) and others - regarding my 'meta'. Have a look at my Space Station Mafia filter - also full of one-liners and not a lot useful, where I was townie. This is a product of not really knowing or understanding what was going on. In Newbie VI, my play in the first half was somewhat directionless and scummy, to the point where both dead blues had strong suspicions of me, as did the last remaining townie in lylo. Only in the second half of the game where I had plenty of material to work with (I like filters) did I manage to find the scum and make a convincing case. In Mafia LI, I replaced in for the start of Day 2 - there was already a lot of material to work with. Rounding off quickly, Matt's case on Paqman - it doesn't seem to have much merit. Reading through the case, I asked myself 'could Paqman have posted all this as town?' - and my answer was yes, it was all perfectly feasibly townie. I should mostly be available to read questions for most of the evening, so if people would like to quiz me, go ahead. I would quite like not to be lynched before I've even got started. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 22 2012 06:11 BlazingJitsu wrote: No problem bro doosk: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=14#270 + Show Spoiler [My Case on Marv] + On April 21 2012 20:13 BlazingJitsu wrote: Marvellosity. Let me talk to you. No correction let me talk AT you. what are you doing this game? Let's look at your filter + Show Spoiler + On April 21 2012 09:05 marvellosity wrote: Mattchew, I thought we were gonna have a long, happy, and romp-filled relationship, then you make me click on multiple spoilers. On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote: I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/ On April 21 2012 10:33 marvellosity wrote: Holy gonzaw post. Nice ^--- These posts are short and worthless. ^--- this post is actually correct, but interestingly, despite the fact that it's the right time to talk about the game mechanics... you never talk about the game mechanics. You ask some unhelpful questions and echo worthless obvious shit other people have said, but otherwise you're deadweight. Where's your contributions, Marv? Where's the discussion that it is "absolute the right time" to talk about? or do you only have inane questions? ^=== HOLY SHIT this question is bad. holy shit. Of course there's good circumstances to make a vig shot! SHOOT A SCUM GUY. Christ. Even if you shoot a godfather, at least that's a data point (not quite a DT check's worth, because it might hasve been roleblock), and if you shoot a goon, hey, you shot a goon. Are you TRYING to be as unhelpful as possible? Are you TRYING to actively inhibit our blue roles? Surely if so it's through neither quality of prose nor persistence in communicating the ideas contained therein with your miniscule cumuluative post length. Typically this is where I say "you can do better, marv" but really, ANYONE could do better. You're shitting on the town and trying to build up a post count without saying ANYTHING. You're lurking in plain sight. ##vote: marvellosity. -Blazinghand -Blazinghand At least have the courtesy of acknowledging my recent post before regurgitating your previous ones :> | ||
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Paragraph 1: The reasonable conclusion a townie would come to. What do you want me to do? Come out on the side of a plan that can't work without entire town vote which it doesn't have? No. Paragraph 2: I found VE's objection and lack of continuing through bad. Do I find it somewhat scummy? Yes. Do I have an entire case to present on the matter? No. Paragraph 3: Arguing against my own meta? I'm not arguing against anything. I am explaining, and you can bloody well go and look for yourself and confirm every word. Paragraph 4: There was a case made, and I explained fairly obviously why I didn't find the case valid. ??? Get a grip. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 22 2012 08:20 BlazingJitsu wrote: Note: even now, EVEN NOW, Marv still hasn't had a scumread. He hasn't pushed a case. He hasn't pressured ANYONE. Somehow. How is this possible? Well, it's simple, Marv is unhelpful shitty dick scum. Now he's gonna come out with a scumread at last, after like 9 butt tons of pressures, and it's gonna be shitty. And then we're gonna lynch him and be the first TL town in a long time to have a D1 scum lynch. -Blazinghand Somewhat fucking surprisingly, this won't be the fucking case. I'm strung up because short of time I make a couple of one-liners. I've since explained TWICE what I think about various parts of the game (including paragraphy analsyis of your shitty case). you're going to lynch me above all the other lurkers in this game who have literally said NOTHING because instead of reading my posts and understanding them from A TOWNIE POINT OF VIEW, you're being a fucking newbie with confirmation bias and seeing everything as scum. jdub, i am disappoint. | ||
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Are my one-liners confusing? Are they leading the town astray? am I promoting confusion? Since I've tried to post tonight, have I not been transparent? Where is my fucking scum play that isn't "posted a little pointlessly and now I'm tunneling him to fuck"? | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 22 2012 08:44 BlazingJitsu wrote: You've literally done nothing helpful. This is another scummy post from you. You're still not helping. -Blazinghand Yet you fail to answer any of my questions. Why don't you look at the filter list and ask what about 6 of the non-posters have done? I've cast my opinion on matt's case - I think it isn't right, and I've provided the reasons. I've also cast my opinion that VE's objection to gonzaw's claim was REALLY BAD, and he never backed it up. Please, go ahead and tell me I've done less than a bunch of other lurkers in the game. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 22 2012 09:16 BlazingJitsu wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GxTnK.gif) I'd rather be annoying than dull. Cause, well, that's you. Dull. not bright. slow. I can only assume you're intentionally NOT getting the basis of my case. The crux of the case against Marv isn't that his POST COUNT is low. It's that he's posted a lot and it's ALL WORTHLESS. ALL WORTHLESS. And there's fair amoutn of posting, too! And it's all dressed up to look like it MIGHT be useful, YET HERE WE ARE. Marv still hasn't done anything useful. -Blazinghand Tunnelling much? | ||
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marvellosity
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Two things: I find VE's faux objection to gonzaw's case really scummy. It was never backed up by any convincing analysis and it was brushed over by "I don't like the plan" Second: BH's tunnelling of me makes me despair. This is Day 1. I would really really really love to have super strong scummy cases to make on someone, but I don't. At the moment, I think sloosh's case on VE is as strong as it gets, and echos my own sentiments on how the game has played out. There have been many more lurkers, but the only inconsistency I have found has been VE's nonsense. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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marvellosity
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1) there is currently no opposition to my lynch. If I'm scum, apparently scum are happy for me to die 2) there is VE's inconsistent attack on gonzaw's case with absolutely no further explanation. So, my vote on VE 3) I'm usually very active. So I had a bloody social life for a day and I'm being crucified for one-liners which I've expanded upon 4) BH is tunnelling me like fuck. I can't even believe he's scum because it's just ridiculous 5) There are a bunch of inactive players who are being given an easy ride when apparently i'm easy to lynch. Why? To those who aren't BH - I had little time, and since I've done my best to explain my feelings on what I've seen. Please, if you're going to lynch me, at least demonstrate my scummy motives. | ||
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marvellosity
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Why then the need to claim Jailkeeper? Just on the offchance that if scum weren't going to shoot him tonight, they definitely will now? Completely mistimed claim, as he didn't have to 'stop' a massclaim plan at this point. Bad bad bad | ||
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On April 23 2012 00:03 VisceraEyes wrote: Not a tantrum - just not interested in defending myself further. If anyone wants to listen to reason I can feasibly get down on a scum lynch, but I'm not going to waste any more time defending myself when it's useless. But you know, continue to be a jerk about it laya...that's about par for the course where you're concerned. Claiming when you did just makes no sense though. It was quite clear gonzaw's plan was not going to be implemented, so the claim was completely unnecessary. You said "scumhunting wins games". Yes, but having blue roles that could prevent Mafia KP is also pretty useful, and discounting that is not sensible. You've also managed to throw suspicion on a lot of people without making a compelling case either way. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 23 2012 04:04 layabout wrote: If VE was right about anything it's that he is not a good shot for mafia. Saying let's not lynch this guy that people are willing to lynch because if he is town the mafia will kill him for us is crazy. If VE is town they his a a walking mislynch tying his own noose. Since mafia's greatest threat is the lynch, townies that might get mislynched are townies that the mafia benefit from keep alive. Please come up with a scenario in which this could happen. I can't think of one. no we don't (cough jailkeeper or a liar cough ) wtf? who is lynching him for information? point them out so that we can all say that you never lynch for information because that is dumb, you lynch to hit scum. I don't get this "I want us to vig BM not lynch him" the lynch is reliable but a vig shot in a game that might not have vigi's could have multiple Jailkeepers and has 2 bulletproof mafia is not garanteed to get us a flip. People should read and understand this post. I don't understand why people are moving off VE on the basis off potential night-actions that may or may not happen (and which mafia could work out and discuss to their favour). VE so far this game made a ridiculous objection to gonzaw's plan, before fabricating some weird case against gonzaw on the basis of a scum-slip that wasn't even a scum-slip. Then he goes and claims JK on the basis that he needed to stop a plan that wasn't actually happening. Timing-wise it was just ridiculous. I can't understand the motivations for it, and if that was the reason it was a terrible one. From LI I've learnt that I can't find the rational reason, probably there's an underlying scum one. Added to the fact that I've lost count of who VE is happy to lynch and point fingers at. Why are we moving off VE when he's a walking liability to us if he lives? | ||
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On April 23 2012 06:29 Risen wrote: I haven't even placed my vote on marv yet >.> It is my intention to do so, though. Everyone on VE should be shot/lynched. I'll vote for anyone on him. Only an idiot would vote for VE and we're better off with all of them dead. Sadly this sounds like Risen's town meta. "Anyone who disagrees with me is scum". It's a recurring theme, he did it in LI too. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 23 2012 06:47 Mementoss wrote: I would like to note the reasoning behind the people voting VE here: Ottoxol: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 16:36 Ottoxlol wrote: He has 5 votes right now against marv's 6. Is he a good player? He argued we shouldn't give any info to the scum then claim he's a JK. If he did not claim and we lynch marv or anyone, then scum wouldnt kill him because he had votes. This contradiction is enough for me to vote VE, everyone saying he is a good player, if he is indeed town JK he shouldn't have played this way. So I trust you guys on that he is good also that means he is a scum. ##Vote: VisceraEyes Sloosh: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 07:13 slOosh wrote: slOosh's "VisceraEyes is scum" case. First item: VE's rebuttal of Gonzaw's plan.. Notice how VE does not actually discuss the pros and cons of the plan itself, but instead chooses to only talk about how unfeasible it is based solely on the idea of a non-cooperative JK (which might not even exist). His point by point breakdown ,which he says is for "ease of comprehension", is actually an excuse to set up strawmen, as he avoids talking about the plan itself but rather nitpicks at each point on inconsequential points. Go read the post. If you can honestly see any of the points being valid discussion of gonzaw's plan, then let's discuss that. But all I see is "analysis" used as an excuse to paint gonzaw in a bad light. No actual valid points. Second item: VE's "scumslip" catch If you look at gonzaw's post in question, you will see that he consistently uses plural pronouns "we", and so it would be totally natural to use "our" to describe the plan. Yet VE chooses to vote after catching this "scumslip", rather than demonstrating to town how gonzaw is proposing an anti-town agenda in the giant "analysis" of his rebuttal. Third item: VE's evasion when asked for clarification The post linked is the start of the evasion. Watch how Ottoxlol brings up how VE's rebuttal doesn't make much sense, and multiple times VE evades it without really wanting to flesh out his reasoning and discuss his stance. Townies aren't scared to discuss their stances - only mafia are scared of scrutiny as they fear their scum agenda being revealed. More prodding and VE gives this "explanation" To which Ottoxlol points out how illogical that is Final item: VE's apathy, misrepresentation and fearmongering (no link as there are 2 quotes) Note how VE clearly has a stance (thinks gonzaw's plan is ridiculous and terrible) but doesn't actually move to help explain and convince town why it is bad. Instead, it is like "you guys do what you want, I don't advise it, it is clearly pro scum, but you guys decide if you want to do it or not". Why wouldn't a townie be more vocal and start convincing people why it is bad if they truly believed it was pro scum agenda? Why would they be so apathetic? Fearmongering comes in the first line - it is true that this plan outs our vigs, but really - to say that it "gives scum all the information they need" is quite the exaggeration, and as discussed by others, the information isn't that valuable (cf. Ottoxlol's post in my third point). Misrepresentation is in the last line - gonzaw thinks that VE is scum because of his apathy and focus on irrelevant points and lack of proper scumhunting. (here and here) Again, he hasn't bothered to explain why this information is detrimental to town, and is instead misinterpreting it to make it seem like scum agenda. His whole beef is centered on how this plan outs our vigs, but he has never bothered explaining why that is bad, and intentionally does not acknowledge how it is different from other mass claims because it is actually 1) only making vigs claim, and 2) vigs have the death miller mechanic, which is the crux of gonzaw's plan. Conclusion: VisceraEyes has displayed a lack of scumhunting, misrepresentation of facts, fearmongering, evasion, apathy to town agenda and illogical arguments. Therefore, he must be scum. ##Vote VisceraEyes Bill Murray: No reason Marveoullosity: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 09:31 marvellosity wrote: Alright. Two things: I find VE's faux objection to gonzaw's case really scummy. It was never backed up by any convincing analysis and it was brushed over by "I don't like the plan" Second: BH's tunnelling of me makes me despair. This is Day 1. I would really really really love to have super strong scummy cases to make on someone, but I don't. At the moment, I think sloosh's case on VE is as strong as it gets, and echos my own sentiments on how the game has played out. There have been many more lurkers, but the only inconsistency I have found has been VE's nonsense. ##Vote: VisceraEyes layabout(couldnt find in thread vote hopefully this is right post reflecting): + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 21:15 layabout wrote: First off. ##unvote marvellosity BH's case was good when you consider how early on it was posted. The case was centred around the idea that marvellosity was actively lurking (at the beginning of the game. Marvellosity is no longer actively lurking I think that marvellosity has tried to be more open and has reacted to BH's increasingly ridiculous pressure in a very town like way. This BM wagon doesn't appear to have any grounding. It is a mindless vote on a lurker, the sort that usually hits town and is easy for scum to hop onto. If you are on that wagon please consider that there are definitely town lurkers and if you pick one at random you are likely to pick town. If somebody else picks a lurker and you support them then there is not only the chance that they will pick town by chance but the chance that they are scum and they are deliberately picking tow. Thirdly, The only reason to not vote for VisceraEyes is the following: You believe that he is telling the truth about his claim. If you believe that then you also have to believe that VisceraEyes would make that appalling move as the real town Jailkeeper. [UON]Sentinel: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 22:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Ok. What the hell is a "non-cooperative Jailkeeper"? Coupled with trying to sway townies so much over the course of this thread, I feel no shame in voting VE. ##Unvote: ghost_403 ##Vote: VisceraEyes St. Dan is next on my list. As for Brood, his last post was fluff but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. VE(for completeness): + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 23:48 VisceraEyes wrote: K this game is no longer interesting to me. I'm not interested in defending myself. ##Unvote: Bill Murray ##Vote: VisceraEyes For anyone concerned about me "playing to my win-condition", D1 discussion is ruined and I can accept my part in that. Lynch me, flip me, and do what you will with the information. You'll win with it. And therefor, I'll win. I'm playing to my win-condition. gg As you read more and more, the only person voting VE with an actual case seems to be sloosh and layabout. Most people are voting him NOT because they think he is scum, but because his claim was bad. Or they think he is bad. We vote for people for SCUMMY actions! Bad town =/= scum. Is this really worth the risk of eliminating 1/3 of our blue roles on day 1? Can VE technically prove his claim? Yes. But its very difficult. He needs to have a successful protect. Or he needs to be tracked and confirmed. I personally do not think he is the scummiest player atm. If you do, for all means leave your vote on him. Do not keep your vote on him because he is bad or bad claim. All people that voted for him for that reason, explain in detail why he is more scummy than Marveoulosity or Riven? Layabout mentioned the high risk of the lynch but is still heavily supporting it: I really oppose it because I do not want us to lose 1/3 our blues on day 1, from sheeping and stupidity. It seems like this has gained the most sheeping. And people are taking the easy reasoning to vote VE. It seems suspicious to me, also most people are just ignoring and not commenting on the Riven case. Or they are not justifiying why VE is more suspicious than the other popular suspects. If you haven't done this, do it. Currently waiting on Rivens reply towards Gonzaws case on him. All this being said I will not be voting VE tonight, it seems like it will be between Riven or Marv. Clearly you haven't bothered to read my posts if you maintain that what you spoilered under me is the main reason I'm voting VE. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 23 2012 06:56 Mementoss wrote: Just read your filter, and it seems that what I spoilered was the TLDR version of why you voted him wasn't it? His case against gonzaws plan was bad and hes inconsistent. Why is he a better vote than Risen in you opinion since you never commented on that case (aka why is he scummier)? Also, do you personally think its worth risking a day 1 lynch of 1/3 of our blues? If so, why? The thing that gives me the biggest scumvibe on VE (and I have said this at least 3 times, but I will say it again just for you, sweetie) was the timing of the claim - when gonzaw's plan wasn't going to be implemented. Mafia LI taught me that timing is an important thing - wbg caught VE out because VE fingered Toad as scum but didn't post a case until much later. In this case, taking the merits of the claim aside (my obvious stance was that it's bad), it's the timing of the claim that gives me such a bad feeling. Of course it's a risk, but if he's scum then he should die, simple as that. Having said that, I just read Paqman's full case on Risen just there. The flipflopping and inconsistencies Paqman points out are very strong - talking about easy wagons then wagoning, vote on me instead of Bill Murray, vote on me when he just pronounced jdub as his main scum read... he's basically saying one thing then doing the other. At the moment I would be happy with either a Risen or VE lynch. | ||
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On April 23 2012 07:03 ghost_403 wrote: @johnnywup: I have no idea why you thought a few hours before the lynch was a good time to bring forward another lynch candidate. Seriously? I'm not really seeing why Risen is scum. Sure, he's loud, obnoxious and belligerent, but that doesn't say anything about his alignment. I'm still pretty happy with a VE lynch. I thought he was scum before he claimed, and I don't buy his claim. Even if his claim is true, he's functioning in an anti-town manner. Also, I'm surprised that no one has brought up the point that he's pretty much ragequit. Marvellosity is still posting nothing of content. I'd be down with that lynch. This, if he is indeed town he is not playing to his wincon in any way. Maybe I don't know VE well enough, but he just doesn't seem like the type to give up so abjectly as town. As scum, 'ragequitting' could be a decent ploy at avoiding the lynch given the continuing support for my lynch and a Risen lynch. If VE is town he should fucking well play like town and help town. His *only* defence before ragequitting was "I didn't like gonzaw's plan so I claimed" which I've tried to point out is bs anyway. That's IT. That's all he's tried. He should be lynched. | ||
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On April 23 2012 07:21 Blazinghand wrote: No, that's you, scum. I'm here to save the town from you and jubjubs. -Blazinghand I'm genuinely looking forward to throwing this in your face post-game. | ||
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On April 23 2012 07:24 BlazingJitsu wrote: I'm genuinely looking forward to hanging your worthless scum ass in the next few hours. -Blazinghand I thought it was only bad newbs who tunneled so much and used confirmation bias so heavily in their cases. Apparently I was quite wrong. | ||
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On April 23 2012 07:27 BlazingJitsu wrote: Easy enough; we lynch Marv, he flips GF, it becomes clear you were directing vigis onto him to waste their shots, then we lynch you, and your scumteam is very mad at both you and Marv for being sub terrible people. Pros like myself will tunnel hard, develop a case, force mistakes, and be right and crush scum like yourself who deserve to be crushed like the flies you are. What's the matter? Worried bout getting lynched? -Blazinghand You just keep digging. No, I'm not worried. If I wasn't so competitive and actually wanted to win games as much as I do, I'd be down with a marv lynch just so I could laugh at you all the sooner. | ||
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On April 23 2012 07:31 Risen wrote: Stop. Now. There's 4 people talking letting every other person just watch the thread burn. Scum can so easily just skate when stuff like this is going on. Why aren't we all on BM? He's done NOTHING. Why are people on the only blue claim we have still? GET OFF VE the VE who's not even bothering to play the game anymore you mean? | ||
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On April 23 2012 07:47 Risen wrote: Layabout. Please respond. Why are you still on VE? Anyone else still on VE, why are you still on VE? terrible objection to gonzaw, terrible claim, terrible scumslip case on gonzaw, terribly timed claim in conjunction with gonzaw plan, and ragequitting. Since when is ragequitting a valid defence or pro-town play? | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 23 2012 07:59 BlazingJitsu wrote: This is a fair point. I'll do my best to consolidate replies and posts and increase the legibility of this thread. I can get a bit out of hand at times. Regarding what could convince I was wrong about Marv: at this point, very little. If you take a look at Marv's development as a player, in the past few hours he's been posting like a regular guy, an acceptable contributor-- everything seems normal. if he had been posting like this all game, I wouldn't be on his ass like this. But at the beginning, at the time of my first case, he was super scummy-- posting several times and saying nothing. my initial case was to pressure him. He responded by trying to appear active, but still being worthless. i kept on pushing, and bit by bit he stepped up his game. Only with enormous pressure was I able to make him contribute. If he had become useful after my initial pressure, that would have been fine-- but his continued attempts to lurk were scummy. At this point, I am convinced Marv is scum and I will likely not be unconvinced unless something amazing happens. I will consider lynching someone else who is scum in an attempt to avoid mislynch, but voting Marv and getting him lynched is priority #1 for me. Alrighty, I'm done being angry with you. I would love for you to consider scenario 2 though, which I did try to explain at some point: I sadly have a social life, and my original one-liners were due to not having the required time to make a thorough analysis of what's at hand. Last night I was playing mafia and not socialising as much as I could have because actually I'd rather not get lynched for something so silly. Now the game has got rolling, I'm back home, I have more to comment on and say, and as you say, this is more 'normal'. Long story short - I didn't have much time and posted a couple of one-liners (obviously i should have just posted nothing). Now I have more time I am posting more sensibly and it is more thought out. It was not 'your pressure' that made me contribute, it's the fact that I spent time I previously did not to try to contribute. Please consider this instead of just a dismissive wave of the hand where everything I do simply confirms the previous thing. Because that's just not good logical thinking. | ||
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So far on BM I see - lurking + ninja post On VE I see everything that has been listed by me and others already. Are people really convinced that the JK claim is powerful enough to trump his ragequitting and move to BM instead? If so why? | ||
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On April 23 2012 08:37 Mementoss wrote: I would say unless you are super confident VE would flip scum than BM is a better lynch. BM - useless lurker that people are going to be wondering about all game. If he doesn't flip scum he flips Vanilla. VE - If he doesnt flip scum he flips JK. So how do we resolve the VE situation given he's basically not playing? What do we do with him tomorrow? | ||
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On April 23 2012 08:42 Mementoss wrote: Do you honestly believe he won't come back to play? At least to the point more than BM? I expect if he doesn't get lynched he will come back to his active self. Not 100% sure though, since he never came back to give new stances on anything. Think about this though. IF VE was scum, when the voting was getting this close, wouldn't he most definitly be back to change his vote? I mean if he was scum he would be responsible for losing 25% of his team and potentially half the KP. If he came back just to change his vote when the vote was close then that is simply claiming and confirming he's scum. | ||
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could anybody quickly tell me whether at the time of VE's claim it looked like he was under serious pressure of a lynch? | ||
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As it is, he was under pressure, so a desperation move followed by a rage-quit when people objected to it. I think the weight of evidence on VE is simply greater than that on BM, so I'm going to keep my vote where it is. | ||
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On April 23 2012 08:52 Zephirdd wrote: The simple fact that people are defending him right now makes it justifiable as scum. The fact that he didn't give us anything to work on in the event of his lynch(ie a fucking case or a simple "I think X is scum") makes no sense from JK pov. hence it's scummy as fuck. This, it's just fucking inexcusable from a townie point of view. | ||
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On April 23 2012 09:16 Zephirdd wrote: Okay, whoever thinks what he did was reasonable should also rethink a little. I"m not taking blame for that either; it was VE's own play that did that. His claim made no sense and he did us the favor of not posting the freaking case against him. I'm all into a marv. lynch for the next day given how bad he wanted VE dead. I mean seriously, his latest posts were like a dog drooling at a piece of meat. Yuh, must be terrible standing your ground when you believe you're right. Of course scummy marv would push VE so openly and hard when it was getting clear he was going to be lynched regardless. Makes perfect sense now | ||
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On April 23 2012 23:21 johnnywup wrote: Why aren't we talking about this? BM comes in out of nowhere and says that he's a power role. What do you guys make of it? Fairly sure he was referring to VE, dearest | ||
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On March 15 2011 15:19 Incognito wrote: Even with some of the best players in TL mafia, nobody is going to be right 100% of the time. And as time goes on, you learn more information that may change your view of things. There are two general trends that townies make where they don't see the complete picture... The other extreme is where townies think they are so sure that player X is scum that they lock on and don't let go. This is an improvement over the wishy washiness, as mafia usually aren't this aggressive. Still, this isn't good. Usually it devolves into a flame war, wastes space etc. Unless you have some REALLY solid evidence on players, its not good to clog up the thread in your attempts to stomp your lynch target into oblivion. Bold is my emphasis. I would contend your entire case rests on a couple of one-liners and then me acting more townie which obviously makes me scum. If you're not gonna listen to me, listen to Incognito. | ||
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On April 24 2012 05:34 slOosh wrote: Marv: thoughts on MidnightGladius and Zephirdd I'll make a separate post on Zephirdd, as it is I've just gone over MG's filter so a few of my thoughts. Might as well start with the bit about me. His vote for me after BH's case and subsequent withdrawal of his vote after I continued posting seemed genuine. It is basically what I expect from a rational player. His case against johnny seems solid. I liked that he wasn't wishy washy about it, and the fact he subsequently tried to push it a little when there was little support also seemed genuine. On April 23 2012 07:45 MidnightGladius wrote: I still think that johnny is the best scum candidate at the moment, and that it's not too late to make it happen. His defense against my allegation of sheeping was to acknowledge that he was sheeping and claim that he's a bad player. How in the world are we just letting that slide? There is something strange about his posts on the VE issue. Is VE and his claim scummy? On April 23 2012 07:45 MidnightGladius wrote: I would also be okay with lynching VE based on his complete unwillingness to continue playing, even though I'm hesitant to lynch a D1 jailkeeper claim, ridiculously scummy play or not. On April 23 2012 09:19 MidnightGladius wrote: ..... I can't believe we just let that happen. In order of voting time. I wonder how many scum were on VE's lynch? Tomorrow, we're taking a long hard look at Zephirdd. Yes, apparently it is. Although he can't believe how town let the ridiculously scummy guy die. MG asks how town let this happen, with a sense of righteous indignation. But, given he's supposedly 'town' himself, what did he do about it?: On April 23 2012 12:44 MidnightGladius wrote: I was still uncertain about VE, so I didn't hound other players to stop voting for him. So the question then - why was he willing to blame the rest of the non-VE voters for allowing the VE lynch when he wasn't willing to take action himself? Is it because he in fact tacitly supported it? Quick summary: reasonable vote and rescind on me. Reasonable case on jdub without being wishy washy. Some pretty dodgy stuff with the VE vote. I really don't like how he's shown he wants to gun for VE voters when he himself called VE ridiculously scummy and also did nothing to prevent the VE lynch. | ||
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On April 24 2012 05:34 slOosh wrote: Marv: thoughts on MidnightGladius and Zephirdd Now I did MG, Zephirdd too. His filter mainly gets a bit more interesting in the second half. The first section of his filter he says a lot of the things I thought about the VE lynch. Namely stuff like: On April 23 2012 08:38 Zephirdd wrote: Yet you guys are doing exactly what a scum fake-claimer would want you to: just unvote him ezpz, he gave up the game and is being useless but hey he is JK amirite? "other scummy suspects" is subjective when I consider VE the scummiest after what has happened. I can't believe people are actually defending a martyring day 1 blue claimer that gave up, when his claim makes no fucking sense or whatsoever. On April 23 2012 08:56 Zephirdd wrote: May I remind you that he said himself that the reason to claim wasn't the pressure, but to stop a plan that wasn't going through. Which only makes his claim worse. Alright, good. The second half of his filter is a goldmine though. He flip-flops in so many ways against me I'm having problem formatting it. Let's give it a go. Somewhat before the deadline: On April 23 2012 08:38 Zephirdd wrote: Although I'm tempted to switch my "lastmin" vote(which seems to not be last min at all) to marv after what Risen pointed out. Ofc there is also the general reasons to vote him as pointed out earlier as well. Ok, here we have tacit support for BH's case. He then kinda retracts it shortly after On April 23 2012 08:46 Zephirdd wrote: Also, I'm skimming through marv's filter and I don't see anything glaring in particular, yet that marv/midnight "scumslip"(pointed out by Risen) is very interesting. It could be a coincidence, it could be what Risen said. So generally a null read now, and then ANOTHER mention of the Risen observation (MG and I asking for deadline times almost simultaneously). Fair enough, let's continue. His next post contained the following 'accident': On April 23 2012 08:48 Zephirdd wrote: Now for instance, were VE really JK, this would make marvellosity look incredibly and extremely bad. Why? because fuck yes. Wow, so his 'inner' thoughts were that VE flipping JK would somehow make me look incredibly bad. What? This is despite him and I making practically identical points on VE on all counts. Again, what? It continues with On April 23 2012 09:16 Zephirdd wrote: I'm all into a marv. lynch for the next day given how bad he wanted VE dead. I mean seriously, his latest posts were like a dog drooling at a piece of meat. I've already posted how stupid it would be for scum to have been so vocally pushing the lynch near the deadline when it seemed fairly clear the lynch was going through anyway. Fine. But how badly I wanted him dead? I was simply around and active, making all the points I thought were strong (yes, sadly incorrect), and to reiterate all the points that he had made about VE as well. It's just unbelievably hypocritical. A quick segway back to where he TWICE comments on Risen's observation about MG and I posted about the deadline at about the same time, if I may. On April 23 2012 08:38 Zephirdd wrote: Although I'm tempted to switch my "lastmin" vote(which seems to not be last min at all) to marv after what Risen pointed out. On April 23 2012 08:46 Zephirdd wrote: Also, I'm skimming through marv's filter and I don't see anything glaring in particular, yet that marv/midnight "scumslip"(pointed out by Risen) is very interesting. It could be a coincidence, it could be what Risen said. On April 24 2012 08:02 Zephirdd wrote: Sorry, your case is weak. Too weak. And when a case is so weak, it is usually wrong. Food for thought. Hrrr. Ok, what do we have so far on Zephirdd's kinda-finger-pointing-at-marv. He doesn't see anything particularly scummy in my filter other than some supposed scumslip, but then he kinda wants to lynch me because I wanted VE dead for all the same reasons he did, I was just more vocal about it. For emphasis. On April 24 2012 08:02 Zephirdd wrote: Sorry, your case is weak. Too weak. And when a case is so weak, it is usually wrong. Food for thought. Lastly, he promises us a case on someone. Instead we get a load more wishy-washy finger-pointing. + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 03:34 Zephirdd wrote: K I was planning on making a case on someone But then I realized that there is no point in making a case right now. Instead, I'll just post whatever the fuck is flowing in my mind about the game. MG strikes scummy to me. I don't know how he switched out of marvellosity into "I think lynching marv would be a terrible mislynch" so easily; especially when marvellosity's posting hasn't been that better. Oh, and I have to be honest here: I was willing to yell OH MY GOD YOU SUCK when he decided I should be lynched tomorrow, given everything that happened. He saw the easy lynch target in me after my "last minute" voting shit and decided it would be easy to push a wagon on me. Oh, and that way he switched out of marv makes me think he was just bussing him. johny strikes me as a bad town for sheeping the one guy that was voting him. This or MG is town and john is a scared scum; But to be honest he hasn't made much bad on the game so I can't really call him scum; hence 'bad town'. In fact, not even bad, just one bad move tbh. marvellosity has not made an actual case and went to VE's wagon(along with me). Although this is forgivable, I don't like activity without substance. There is not one scum push made by marvellosity besides VE. He talks about how BH is tunneling him, yet all he did was to talk about VE without caring about making connections or anything. Even now, he is caring about a worthless defense when he should be genuinely attacking someone. Yeah scum StDaniel inactivity is sad and I don't know if I should call him scum or not; when he has posted on another game(as pointed by someone else), that makes me think he is actually scum afraid of posting - very common considering it's his first TL game. Bill Murray sounds like a Kenpachi/Palmar mix. Fuck day 1, day 2 is where the action is at eh? At very least he hasn't been disruptive so far. Wouldn't mind a vig shot if he will keep playing like that tho. Well, I *kinda* have other reads but they are all null or town/null so, there you have it. Ask Me Anything. Overall? Zephirdd is looking pretty bloody scummy | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:07 Mementoss wrote: Marv I initially thought this was the case too, but I realized he just took his vote off to make himself look concerned. And ultimately, he put that vote back there with tonnes of showing of why it was a bad idea at the end of the thread, by me Risen and Mattchew. Still looking weird in my eyes. You've said this twice now, so I'm going to call you up on it. Here is my filter for the voting thread. On April 22 2012 09:35 marvellosity wrote: ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:40 Mementoss wrote: Why would you do something in the thread but not the voting thread just to screw me up? Care to link me to the post I did that? | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:42 Mementoss wrote: I was wrong. I was sure last night while we were in the thread, you said ##Unvote and then said, can someone convince me why lynching BM is better than VE Apology accepted. | ||
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Upon further analysis you thought I was scum? What, where I was making extremely similar points to you and was similarly bemused that we were going to save a rage-quitting no-sense claimer? If that's your defence, then it sucks, and you are still scummy | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:46 johnnywup wrote: I think the "Sorry, your case is weak. Too weak. And when a case is so weak, it is usually wrong. Food for thought." was referring to me and my case against him, marv Sigh, it's called sarcasm/irony dear. | ||
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On April 24 2012 09:06 layabout wrote: He seemed unsure of himself. At the time of voting VE i was unsure of myself because his play made next to no sense as either alignment*. It was his refusal to answer questions that was the eventual tipping point for me. It seems that this was also the case for zeph. *Also that is why i hate these it makes no sense as mafia arguments. It made no sense as town either, we shouldn't give a player the benefit of the doubt for being anti-town. Right layabout. But my case basically hinged on how he acted after he voted for VE, not before. | ||
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On April 24 2012 09:18 layabout wrote: I think nearly everything you have quoted reinforces the notion that he was unsure of himself, and it does not change my opinion of him by much. He says he is tempted to switch, he says that people have pointed out reasons to vote for you and mention's risen. Presumably he then goes and reads through your posts. He then concludes. "i don't see anything too bad except the scumslip Risen pointed out" but he doesn't seem to be sure of it. I fail to see how this makes zeph scummy. And now again he's sure, because I went after VE. He's sure, unsure, unsure, sure, unsure. He's not making a case against anyone. Marv is guilty then he isn't then he is then he isn't then he is. Oh, and MG might be guilty coz he kinda doesn't like his posts. Oh and jdub too, let's omgus him a little. Wishy washy scum. | ||
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On April 24 2012 13:12 MidnightGladius wrote: Zephirdd's behavior throughout the night, along with his continued attempts to justify his earlier play, reinforce my earlier scumread on him. I haven't looked at Sentinel in as much detail. That said, I still think that you're scum, johnny. You have zeph as your strongest scumread, but refuse to vote for him, and ask for town consensus first, when we've just started the day, and you have the most time to convince others? You have yet to actually push your own scumreads, outside of your earlier sheeping. Your unwillingness to actually put your vote where your voice is very suspicious, and I think that you're trying to gently push for a bandwagon without actually committing. This behavior is just like zeph's list earlier, which is why I'm of the opinion that you're bussing him. ##Vote: johnnywup Oh, and BJ, do you still insist on tunneling marv? MG - I'd really like an answer to the points I raised in my answer to sloosh about you (others have raised it too) I'm sure I'm not the only one with a comment written down on you like mine - "MidnightGladius seemed townie but very odd VE voter shenanigans" + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 06:52 marvellosity wrote: I'll make a separate post on Zephirdd, as it is I've just gone over MG's filter so a few of my thoughts. Might as well start with the bit about me. His vote for me after BH's case and subsequent withdrawal of his vote after I continued posting seemed genuine. It is basically what I expect from a rational player. His case against johnny seems solid. I liked that he wasn't wishy washy about it, and the fact he subsequently tried to push it a little when there was little support also seemed genuine. There is something strange about his posts on the VE issue. Is VE and his claim scummy? Yes, apparently it is. Although he can't believe how town let the ridiculously scummy guy die. MG asks how town let this happen, with a sense of righteous indignation. But, given he's supposedly 'town' himself, what did he do about it?: So the question then - why was he willing to blame the rest of the non-VE voters for allowing the VE lynch when he wasn't willing to take action himself? Is it because he in fact tacitly supported it? Quick summary: reasonable vote and rescind on me. Reasonable case on jdub without being wishy washy. Some pretty dodgy stuff with the VE vote. I really don't like how he's shown he wants to gun for VE voters when he himself called VE ridiculously scummy and also did nothing to prevent the VE lynch. | ||
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On April 24 2012 21:17 Mattchew wrote: Ottox lynch is fine for tommorrow today we should lynch confirmed scum in bm Mattchew: I would like you to elaborate a little. Why is BM confirmed scum? He's been posting more actively since Day 1. I also think both Zephirdd and Sentinel make better lynches than Ottox. What do you think of these? | ||
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On April 24 2012 21:35 Mattchew wrote: He ninja voted the most well known scum hunter in the game... To me that's like saying hi I'm Scum lynch me... And he hasn't said anything of value if you think he has you are reading something I'm not I asked more than one question. | ||
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On April 22 2012 16:44 St.Daniel wrote: I do have a case for Marv and I'm not sure how I feel about Ghost, but it's 3:40 and I'm dead tired. I'll post tomorrow on those two so please understand. Bold is my emphasis. On April 23 2012 08:58 St.Daniel wrote: On April 23 2012 11:11 St.Daniel wrote: On April 23 2012 11:41 St.Daniel wrote: The three timestamps above are his posting in SNMN X. But absolutely nothing here since the first post I quoted. Promise to post, then doesn't post, despite clearly being online at various other times the next day. | ||
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On April 24 2012 23:19 Mattchew wrote: Oh right... Forgot about st Daniel... Yeah we need to lynch him too if a vig doesn't get to shooting Yup, we can't forget the lurkers. Especially ones with broken promises like St. Daniel. Speaking of lurkers, BroodkingEXE - what do you think of current lynch favourites, Zephirdd/Sentinel/Ottoxlol? Or do you still think I'm scum, and if so why? We need to hear from you. | ||
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On April 24 2012 23:31 ghost_403 wrote: Also, I'm in tears because now, even if Marv does flips town, I might not get to see blzinghand eat his hat T_T I don't believe his statement included 'unless I get mod-killed or die'. So, we will still get us some hat-eating. | ||
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On April 25 2012 00:57 Ottoxlol wrote: Ok, post it when you got it drawn. I feel like the pressure is on me because I did not make any useful post d2, and i feel its really unfair when no one really did so. I am thinking on the line of who should we lynch that gives us info. VE wagon seemed like a good start to look at, I made 3 pairs who seems to defend each other/attack the same persons. If we lynch anyone from that we can get information about the other half of the pair. Because we're looking for you to actually have/push a scumread at this point, rather than wishy-washy connections that may or may not mean something and aren't even accurate, e.g. laya attacking marv, defending zeph I don't see layabout attacking me at any point, in fact he was one of the most vocal critics of BJ for his case on me. layabout just wasn't sure of my case on Zephirdd. | ||
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That was 3 days ago. | ||
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But with regards to any recent posting, your line doesn't make much sense. | ||
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On April 25 2012 01:31 Ottoxlol wrote: What? So we shouldn't look at what happened 3 days ago? What happened 3 days ago: layabout called me out for one-liners What happened since: I made more constructive posts and layabout heavily attacked BJ for maintaining his case. Which do you think is more relevant to the current state of affairs? I mean, feel free to try to read into layabout attacking me near the beginning of the game, I just don't understand what you're constructively hoping to achieve when events since superceded those. | ||
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So who? | ||
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On April 25 2012 01:43 Mementoss wrote: Well this is a scum tell if I ever heard one. We lynch who we think is scum. If they are scum, that automatically gives us information. We don't lynch for information. You could easily be scum saying, if we lynch this guy it gives us information on this guy. Wasting 2 days of lynch into townies. Agreed, but at this point I just want him to tell us who he thinks we should lynch and what the case on him is. Terrible connection-wifom cases aside | ||
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Ok, so your stance is we should lynch BM because ... he's been lurking? Do you have anything to say about the Zephirdd/Sentinel cases? | ||
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On April 25 2012 01:51 Mementoss wrote: Ottoxlol: A Posting History Gonzaw plan - posts a lot about it, explains game rules on multiple occasion. Easy conversation for scum to jump on without really having any risk to put opinions on anyone. Votes VE AFTER JK claim, easy wagon for scum to jump on cause all you have to say is herp bad claim. Which is basically what ottoxlol did. Then guess what, he conveniently dissapears until VE's death and for the whole night. Im under attack!! - posts alot, in his defense, OMGUS vots BJ, attempts to make some sort of case against people but can't. Takes the easy way out for lynching lurkers. Also wants to lynch into WIFOM "pairs" for information. Names so many people that is really impossible to see his best stance atm. Basically its two hurricanes of posting at which seems to be convenient timing.... coincidence? Maybe. You decide. Note - I would like to hear from more than the same old players today eventually lol. Especially the lurking players. Only me again, sowie. The problem I have with Ottoxlol at the moment is I'm finding it extremely hard to distinguish whether Ottoxlol is scum or just newbie town. There have been really long and detailed cases on Sentinel and Zephirdd, his only real comments being "they're quite lurky", basically disregarding much of the cases on them. And he wants to lynch BM because he is the most lurky. Added to this, his only other thoughts are on connections and information which I dislike. The problem I'm having is that I'm struggling to reconcile myself to the idea that he would be so obtuse to basically give us nothing again and again and again despite being pushed on it. | ||
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On April 25 2012 02:15 Ottoxlol wrote: Zephs defense was that he was afk thats why he did not contribute to d1 that much and voted that late. Why is that not lurking? Sentinel doesnt post. marv, you had a couple of posts today pressuring lurkers, why do you call me out for that? ? I really don't understand. Yes I've asked Brood to post and pointed out St. Daniel's iffyness, and I've asked MG for a response which I haven't yet had answered. But I also made a case on Zephirdd, which you seem to think is just calling him out on lurking. Which you're soft-defending him on (like layabout, oddly) due to afk/indecisiveness Day 1, when the thrust of my case was his posting since, and the gist of the case was not lurking. I don't get how you can't see the difference. | ||
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On April 25 2012 04:08 Mattchew wrote: How many times would you like me to answer that Until you make a case that is at least half as solid as the cases on those 2 perhaps? | ||
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Your ninja vote point is annoyingly compelling. On April 22 2012 12:42 Bill Murray wrote: ##vote: VisceraEyes On April 24 2012 14:50 Bill Murray wrote: I would be pretty hypocritical to vote him for that. I don't see it. It is really easy to mistake someone who is nervous with a Doctor or Jailkeeper role as being mafia... It's something we can't help. VE's vote for me was more like a placeholder. I was pretty busy during the time period. I didn't expect to get wagonned by mafia and for him to actually die. VE is a great player that shouldn't ever be lynched on D1. We should have lynched someone like Paqman on policy, though I'm glad we didn't now. His "we could have 3 vigs" comment cracked me up. His excuse for voting him is non-existent. If you were pretty busy why leave your vote on a player that should never get lynched? That's ridiculous. If you were so busy that you decided to lynch the guy who should never be lynched and not bothered to check the thread after, then you shouldn't have signed up, should you BM? | ||
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On April 25 2012 05:01 MidnightGladius wrote: I'm exhausted and going to take a nap, but I want to say that Ottoxlol's play one these last 2 pages alone is really scummy. He's willing to push any of BM, Zeph, or Sent, again without any particular conviction. The excuse "they're all equally likely to be scum to me" is incredibly flimsy. Post your case(s) on any one or more of those three, and then vote for your strongest scumread. You can even pursue your associative tells/pairs, as long as you then vote for your strongest scumread. That's all I ask. Mattchew, I would argue that BM still doesn't make a good lynch today. Lack of posts and odd behavior don't give us much to work with, one way or the other, and we can't really make too many connections if he flips scum. I'm personally keeping my vote on johnny for now, but I will gladly vote for Zeph as well. You still haven't responded to me about your VE voter weirdnesses. I would like it. | ||
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On April 25 2012 05:17 MidnightGladius wrote: Are you arguing that I should have been more convinced of VE's innocence, despite his scummy play, and pushed people off of his lynch? Perhaps I could have, but hindsight is cruel, and I would have not wanted to have been led to a no-lynch. Like I said in the post you only partially quoted, I highly doubt that I could have convinced the people voting for VE to move off of him. Would I have liked to have been perfectly certain and pulled a ton of pressure to move votes off of VE? Sure. Did I think it was the right, or feasible, idea at the time? No. This is the problem. There's no consistent string. You called VE's play really scummy. Then you ask town how it could let the really scummy player get lynched. You are town. You let it happen too, what did you expect everyone else to do? If you weren't certain on VE's innocence, why were you acting so incredulous and shocked that town let the lynch happen? Surely it was a distinct, and also according to you, reasonable, possibility if VE's play had been super scummy? | ||
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On April 25 2012 05:19 ghost_403 wrote: Sentinel has two votes. I vote we lynch him today and Ottoxlol tomorrow. Sound good? I would definitely prefer a Zephirdd lynch. | ||
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On April 25 2012 05:23 MidnightGladius wrote: Marv, all I can say is that you're exaggerating how shocked I was at VE's flip. Can you think of any reason why ghost's suggestion makes sense from a town perspective? Ok. I may or may not be overthinking it, but I'm just not quite... comfortable with how it read. Re: ghost. He's made a case against Sentinel and he thinks he's scum which is fair enough. But his last comment on Ottoxol is that he thinks he's newb town. Has your opinion changed on that, ghost? | ||
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His bit in italics there is bordering on criminal | ||
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On April 25 2012 05:45 MidnightGladius wrote: Very well, Mattchew, point taken. However, he didn't address my earlier post, noting that the reasoning he gave in that post was horrendously bad. "Sentinel has 2 votes [when everyone else has 1]." That single line screamed scum to me so loudly that I admit I haven't even gone through the rest of his filter yet. Or maybe I'm just sleep-deprived. I dunno, I'm going to take a nap and come back later. This is ridiculous, ghost already pushed a hard case on Sentinel. If you think that line was his reasoning you're seriously misrepresenting him. | ||
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On April 25 2012 06:03 Ottoxlol wrote: @Sentinel Your main argument is that I did nothing and I post a lot of one liners. I did push gonzaws plan, pressured VE, you. then after he claimed I made a case against him and defended it. D2 I had a plan, no one liked it. I have no strong reads so I don't have a case right now, but the majority of ppl doesnt have neither. This is just patently false. | ||
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layabout soft or badly defending people. Zephirdd: On April 24 2012 09:06 layabout wrote: He seemed unsure of himself. At the time of voting VE i was unsure of myself because his play made next to no sense as either alignment*. It was his refusal to answer questions that was the eventual tipping point for me. It seems that this was also the case for zeph. *Also that is why i hate these it makes no sense as mafia arguments. It made no sense as town either, we shouldn't give a player the benefit of the doubt for being anti-town. He completely ignores the main part of my case, while bringing up 'unsure' as a defence. He posts again on the issue where he quoted part of my case, ignoring where I flesh out further points and conclusions. Sentinel: On April 25 2012 05:23 layabout wrote: If the crux of your case is his lack of a contribution then i must inform you that, that is typical of him. his past games Bill Murray: On April 25 2012 06:14 layabout wrote: If you hadn't made it clear from the outset* that your decision to push BM was independent of BM's play then maybe people would take posts like this seriously. But you did, they don't, move on. + Show Spoiler [*] + On April 21 2012 09:15 Mattchew wrote: So anyway should we policy lynch Bill Murray because a. he is scum in like 99% of his recent games b. he gets away with everything "because he's Bill Murray" These encompass my 2 top scumreads (Sentinel/Zephirdd) and a quite potential scum (Bill Murray) | ||
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On April 25 2012 06:37 Mattchew wrote: when you say badly defending people, do you mean badly as in his reasoning and logic is bad, or do you mean bad because you think they are bad people to defend? the soft defences were on BM/Sentinel I meant badly as in reasoning/logic. On zephirdd, picking up on his pre-day 1 lynch behaviour, which as i made clear in my post was irrelevant. Followed by quoting half of my subsequent case where i was simply laying things out. | ||
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On April 25 2012 06:41 Mattchew wrote: the problem I have is i don't disagree with what layabout wrote about BM/Sentinel. I don't know about zeph cause thats more of a you and him issue, but his other 2 posts seem to not be soft defenses as much as his reason for disagreeing. I don't find them scummy Alright, I'm willing to be wrong on this one. I'm going to keep it in my mind though because it jumped out at me. At this point I think layabout has posted generally strongly, and he's not one of my scumreads. I just found what I posted to be odd. | ||
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On April 25 2012 07:04 layabout wrote: When we have a reason to. eg. we have analysis that demonstrates that he is scum or we have plenty of storng town reads and the pool of players that scum lie in is small enough to make him a good lynch. I am concerned about why Ottoxlol is suggesting that we try to link the alignments of players together on shaky grounds and then lynch into them to find scum. This is a recipe for mislynches aplenty* and looks worse when you consider that he did so under pressure, instead of giving us solid opinions about who he thinks is scum. + Show Spoiler [*] + Do i need to explain this? Because i love a little bit of theorycraft. Is the fact that he's a total newb an excuse for this? Or do you think it's gone beyond this excuse by now? | ||
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On April 25 2012 08:58 johnnywup wrote: Hasn't it only been 24 hrs? also I just got that movie from the library, funnily enough. Haven't seen it before and I've heard it's really good Yes, it's only been 24 hours. igrok is having a funny moment. | ||
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On April 25 2012 09:09 Risen wrote: I just posted a giant case and spoilered it, but it seems no one is going to read it b/c it's spoilered. Do I need to repost it in all its massive glory so that someone will respond? Wtf :/ Risen - I have read it. And honestly? It's been the most convincing this so far on Ottixlol (maybe just for the passion )I've had this constant nagging feeling that Ottoxlol is bad town but you make a good case. Personally I need to revisit all the Zephirdd/Sentinel/Ottoxlol cases. I still think Zephirdd is scum (and so did gonzaw) but at the moment it's not gaining much traction. Hopefully a refresh will make me more certain. | ||
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On April 25 2012 09:18 Risen wrote: Wanna know why I was defending with so much vigor? Because I've been in that same spot. I thought after GoT that no one would be bad enough to vote for a claimed blue like that after I was lynched following my blue claim w/ a red detection. On top of this he was our DOCTOR role. How is this hard to understand?! It's SO SIMPLE :/ I'm doing my best to stay calm and not curse and not get modkilled like BJ, but I'm having a really hard time. You do remember Mafia LI where you called me scum because I didn't vote for the blue-claiming VE, don't you? Like, VE was scum there and you were right. But we can't pretend all blue claims = valid = can't lynch. | ||
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On April 25 2012 09:23 Mementoss wrote: That was day 2, completely different situation. He claimed DT without knowing his sanity. ? Risen's claim in GoT wasn't Day 1 either. I'm not claiming the cases were the same, I was just saying (to repeat) that we can't pretend all blue claims = valid = can't lynch. I'm not backhandedly having a stab at Risen either, I was just making a sidepoint. Now I'm going to stop talking about it because it's clogging unnecessarily. | ||
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On April 25 2012 09:34 Mementoss wrote: FROM SNMM X: Could this be the case in this game as well, or since St.Daniel is active RIGHT NOW, will he make an effort to post/read/anything. Also where is BKexe I thought he was a promising newbie. Guess not. Good catch Mementoss. You know what gets me about BroodkingEXE? Look at his filter in his Newbie game. He posted A LOT in this game although he was lynched Day 1. There may or may not be external reasons for this but I don't like the comparison. | ||
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For the lazy, the summary of gonzaw's Sentinel case:
It does seem that since then he's posted with a lot more relevancy. What do people think about this? | ||
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Fairly unsatisfactory answers on Sentinel at the moment There's the impression he's still scummy and recent posting hasn't necessarily fixed this, but there seems to be not a lot fo strong feeling. Over the next few hours I will check out Ottoxlol to see if I'd genuinely be happy with that lynch. | ||
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On April 25 2012 11:29 St.Daniel wrote: Sorry guys. To make a long story short, I was retarded and I had food poisoning. I sincerely apology. I'll try my best to dedicate to this games. This post in no way explains the post below. You were well enough to post at 3 distinct times in a different game yesterday yet not at all in this one. Excuse or not, that is still dodgy. On April 24 2012 22:40 marvellosity wrote: Also, I don't want this to get lost on St. Daniel. Bold is my emphasis. The three timestamps above are his posting in SNMN X. But absolutely nothing here since the first post I quoted. Promise to post, then doesn't post, despite clearly being online at various other times the next day. | ||
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On April 25 2012 21:24 Mattchew wrote: I agree with this case. If BM has no chance of being lynched and there is another candidate for getting lynched I will vote Ottox to ensure that either him or BM gets lynched today Hey Mattchew, when I posted my thoughts on layabout's defences you said he had a valid point on BM. Not valid enough that you don't think he's 100% scum then? Or? | ||
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1) He has actually tried to be active. Compared to, say, BM, BroodEXE, St. Daniel 2) He's being attacked over VE stuff. Now there were a lot of people who did this (including me). I get the impression reading his filter that he was reasonably consistent over VE, and that people are cherrypicking the odd line to attack him with. 3) A lingering sense I have that he's playing unsure town. His play seems very consistent with this, and consistent in general - consistently saying he has no reads, consistently going after lurkers. I know this is about to be wifom, but I still have it in my head that as scum he would have at least TRIED to comply with town's wishes for a stronger read... That said, there are two posts in his filter which are just disgusting: On April 24 2012 15:52 Ottoxlol wrote: I havent finished reading everything, but so far I had an idea I thought I will write down the VE voters relationships maybe we can figure something out. Sentinel attacked BM Ottox did not attack anyone from this grp marv attacked Zeph BM defending Zeph and marv laya attacking marv, defending zeph Zeph attacking BM, and marv I think this will not make a strong read, but I try If Sentinel is scummy, we should investigate Zeph and vice versa If laya is scummy we should investigate Zeph and vice versa If marv is scummy we should investigate BM and vice versa . So my read is there are 0 or 2 scums in the VE voter group, maybe we can use this later This may or may not be noob connection play (see the final day of Newbie VIII for the entire playlist going absolute connection-wifom crazy). But still, it rankles... even his conclusion - there are some scum, or no scum, but I don't know who are scum. Even the players in Newbie VIII who were going connection crazy were doing so off their own original strong scumread, unlike here. On April 24 2012 22:21 Ottoxlol wrote: I believe that there is at least one scum on that list, I read them all. I couldn't come up with a case that's strong. Bm contributed zero, it is really hard to analyse someone with zero posts. Marvellosity been attacked d1 with a very weak case, I did not find anything suspicious there layabout he was on my d1 list because I felt his opinion switches were a bit suspicious but d2 he's been posting some very good things, i think he's town Sentinel wasn't too involved in the debates, the case against him is semi decent, but if we punish someone because he did not got involved it should be the one with the least contribution Zephridd's defense is that he was afk too. We have 3 players who did some afking Sent BM Zeph from the VE crowd, Sentinel and Zeph tried contributing so I would vote rather BM then those other 2. He's getting votes and called out why don't he post and he's still just lurking around. BM please get into the game and show us you are town, or else I feel you'll get lynched. Here, wishywashy yukkiness again. Like, even giving his opinions on players he doesn't even give opinions! And his total (wilful? or not) misunderstanding of the thrust of the cases against Sentinel/Zephirdd/BM (ninja vote). The only consistent thing in the post is that he's going after lurkers primarily and he does this in other posts too. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alright. So, a couple of questions to you all: does anyone see my misgivings about his lynch? Or is it really just me worried about those things? Next, the two posts I filtered there seem to be the lowpoints. Are we sure that they're not just in-line with his general wishywashyness as a newb? Or are they just that bad? I can't fucking make up my mind on this one atm, those posts look so awful but somehow I can't convince myself completely. To the floor ^^ | ||
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On April 25 2012 22:35 Mattchew wrote: ps daniel is actually scummy lurker inactive sick newb, who is being replaced out of his other game and probably got stuck playing this one. So this one has easily the most question marks I still don't like that St. Daniel posted 3 times in the other game and not at all in this game. Sick or not, that's what happened. I'm asking about Ottoxlol because I'm hoping town's opinions will help remove some of my uncertainty. Zephirdd is the final one I need to look over and will do so by this evening. Certain things make me very suspicious of him e.g. his 'accidental' posting of him being very happy thinking that if VE flipped JK then I was incredibly likely scum. | ||
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On April 26 2012 01:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: EBWOP: The pages suddenly worked! My filter is apparently blocking me trying to get to my posts from TL Home, but from here it works perfectly fine. So right now I'm switching my vote to Ottoxlol. Currently my plan of voting is Otto -> BM -> St. Dan (for lurking, the fact that he's otherwise active means I have no problems attacking him for lurking) I'm really hoping Otto is scum, because if he isn't, it's prolly a death sentence for me. I find this an odd comment to make. | ||
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On April 26 2012 01:40 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: How is it odd? If I was scum I'd already know if he was with me or not. If he flips town, I'm suspecting the wrong people (I thought VE was bullshitting and now Otto has crap posting) and I'm that much more scummy. Even if I'm not next in line for lynching, I'm going to have that much more trouble with my analysis because first I have to ask myself what I'm doing wrong. Maybe. Being wrong != scummy, though. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 09:32 gonzaw wrote: Okay I don't think I'll have time to make a case against Zephird before the post goes up, so here it goes: About Zephird: What I first found suspicious about him was how he only had 3 posts in the whole game like half-way through D1 (here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=29#561 ) Then he posts filler, one-liners that don't contribute at all, etc. Of course he made that horrible last-minute bandwagon-jump on VE, and spent almost all of his time after the lynch to defend himself. I didn't see him scumhunt at all, nor take active part of discussions. He lurks, yet when he posts he posts one-liners and fluff, which means he isn't actually inactive and doesn't have time/etc to post (in which case his posts would have more contributions) but just posts to avoid suspicion and to fly under the radar. He's a fine lynch as well, although I'd prefer to lynch Sentinel first Hopefully I'm posting this before the post goes up  + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 08:34 marvellosity wrote: Now I did MG, Zephirdd too. His filter mainly gets a bit more interesting in the second half. The first section of his filter he says a lot of the things I thought about the VE lynch. Namely stuff like: Alright, good. The second half of his filter is a goldmine though. He flip-flops in so many ways against me I'm having problem formatting it. Let's give it a go. Somewhat before the deadline: Ok, here we have tacit support for BH's case. He then kinda retracts it shortly after So generally a null read now, and then ANOTHER mention of the Risen observation (MG and I asking for deadline times almost simultaneously). Fair enough, let's continue. His next post contained the following 'accident': Wow, so his 'inner' thoughts were that VE flipping JK would somehow make me look incredibly bad. What? This is despite him and I making practically identical points on VE on all counts. Again, what? It continues with I've already posted how stupid it would be for scum to have been so vocally pushing the lynch near the deadline when it seemed fairly clear the lynch was going through anyway. Fine. But how badly I wanted him dead? I was simply around and active, making all the points I thought were strong (yes, sadly incorrect), and to reiterate all the points that he had made about VE as well. It's just unbelievably hypocritical. A quick segway back to where he TWICE comments on Risen's observation about MG and I posted about the deadline at about the same time, if I may. Hrrr. Ok, what do we have so far on Zephirdd's kinda-finger-pointing-at-marv. He doesn't see anything particularly scummy in my filter other than some supposed scumslip, but then he kinda wants to lynch me because I wanted VE dead for all the same reasons he did, I was just more vocal about it. For emphasis. Lastly, he promises us a case on someone. Instead we get a load more wishy-washy finger-pointing. + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 03:34 Zephirdd wrote: K I was planning on making a case on someone But then I realized that there is no point in making a case right now. Instead, I'll just post whatever the fuck is flowing in my mind about the game. MG strikes scummy to me. I don't know how he switched out of marvellosity into "I think lynching marv would be a terrible mislynch" so easily; especially when marvellosity's posting hasn't been that better. Oh, and I have to be honest here: I was willing to yell OH MY GOD YOU SUCK when he decided I should be lynched tomorrow, given everything that happened. He saw the easy lynch target in me after my "last minute" voting shit and decided it would be easy to push a wagon on me. Oh, and that way he switched out of marv makes me think he was just bussing him. johny strikes me as a bad town for sheeping the one guy that was voting him. This or MG is town and john is a scared scum; But to be honest he hasn't made much bad on the game so I can't really call him scum; hence 'bad town'. In fact, not even bad, just one bad move tbh. marvellosity has not made an actual case and went to VE's wagon(along with me). Although this is forgivable, I don't like activity without substance. There is not one scum push made by marvellosity besides VE. He talks about how BH is tunneling him, yet all he did was to talk about VE without caring about making connections or anything. Even now, he is caring about a worthless defense when he should be genuinely attacking someone. Yeah scum StDaniel inactivity is sad and I don't know if I should call him scum or not; when he has posted on another game(as pointed by someone else), that makes me think he is actually scum afraid of posting - very common considering it's his first TL game. Bill Murray sounds like a Kenpachi/Palmar mix. Fuck day 1, day 2 is where the action is at eh? At very least he hasn't been disruptive so far. Wouldn't mind a vig shot if he will keep playing like that tho. Well, I *kinda* have other reads but they are all null or town/null so, there you have it. Ask Me Anything. Overall? Zephirdd is looking pretty bloody scummy Anyway, a couple more things. Zephirdd thinking VE was scummy as fuck (all well and good) On April 23 2012 08:52 Zephirdd wrote: The simple fact that people are defending him right now makes it justifiable as scum. The fact that he didn't give us anything to work on in the event of his lynch(ie a fucking case or a simple "I think X is scum") makes no sense from JK pov. hence it's scummy as fuck. Again saying VE was superscummy On April 23 2012 09:16 Zephirdd wrote: Okay, whoever thinks what he did was reasonable should also rethink a little. I"m not taking blame for that either; it was VE's own play that did that. His claim made no sense and he did us the favor of not posting the freaking case against him. I'm all into a marv. lynch for the next day given how bad he wanted VE dead. I mean seriously, his latest posts were like a dog drooling at a piece of meat. But somehow he mysteriously makes the leap that I am now scum because of how badly I wanted VE dead. What is this? Stating so absolutely strongly himself how scummy VE was - why would I look bad for pushing someone who is 'scummy as fuck' - his words? Does it not make sense to push someone you think is scummy as fuck? Gonna bring up his 'inner thoughts' post again On April 23 2012 08:48 Zephirdd wrote: Now for instance, were VE really JK, this would make marvellosity look incredibly and extremely bad. Why? because fuck yes. I would look really bad because I was convinced - just like you and other people? Or... that I would become a handy scapegoat for the VE lynch? Yeah. Finally. I went to look at his voting pattern for today. It turns out he placed a vote on Sentinel, without, as far as I can see, mentioning him ONCE. The first time he mentions him is this - so apparently this is the entire reason he's voting for him? On April 24 2012 23:10 Zephirdd wrote: By the way, lynching Risen or johnny is retarded. IF you want my opinion, I'd say Sentinel is the best lynch target right now. Last post of his: It's been about 12 hours. He also has very little substance. Leaving my vote on him for now. Interestingly one of his defences against my spoilered post was that he hadn't promised a CASE, but an ANALYSIS. Was Sentinel on there? On April 24 2012 03:34 Zephirdd wrote: K I was planning on making a case on someone But then I realized that there is no point in making a case right now. Instead, I'll just post whatever the fuck is flowing in my mind about the game. MG strikes scummy to me. I don't know how he switched out of marvellosity into "I think lynching marv would be a terrible mislynch" so easily; especially when marvellosity's posting hasn't been that better. Oh, and I have to be honest here: I was willing to yell OH MY GOD YOU SUCK when he decided I should be lynched tomorrow, given everything that happened. He saw the easy lynch target in me after my "last minute" voting shit and decided it would be easy to push a wagon on me. Oh, and that way he switched out of marv makes me think he was just bussing him. johny strikes me as a bad town for sheeping the one guy that was voting him. This or MG is town and john is a scared scum; But to be honest he hasn't made much bad on the game so I can't really call him scum; hence 'bad town'. In fact, not even bad, just one bad move tbh. marvellosity has not made an actual case and went to VE's wagon(along with me). Although this is forgivable, I don't like activity without substance. There is not one scum push made by marvellosity besides VE. He talks about how BH is tunneling him, yet all he did was to talk about VE without caring about making connections or anything. Even now, he is caring about a worthless defense when he should be genuinely attacking someone. Yeah scum StDaniel inactivity is sad and I don't know if I should call him scum or not; when he has posted on another game(as pointed by someone else), that makes me think he is actually scum afraid of posting - very common considering it's his first TL game. Bill Murray sounds like a Kenpachi/Palmar mix. Fuck day 1, day 2 is where the action is at eh? At very least he hasn't been disruptive so far. Wouldn't mind a vig shot if he will keep playing like that tho. Well, I *kinda* have other reads but they are all null or town/null so, there you have it. Ask Me Anything. Um, nope. Whaddafuck? What the heck is this vote on Sentinel? Tonight I am voting for Zephirdd because he is scum | ||
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St. Daniel has voted for him without saying anything here. | ||
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On April 26 2012 06:51 Zephirdd wrote: gotta love StDaniel's ninja vote. Also gotta love how forced people are analyzing my posts. Geez I should play more like Kenpachi and Bill Murray, I bet I'd feel more comfortable with this. Sentinel, I just pointed out town-confirmed reads, as in, reads that can be trusted to be pro-town. Opinions that we know that aren't scum opinions. Y'know, trustable opinions. No, I never said they are right. Marv, just because I never mention Sentinel, teh lurker, doesn't mean I can't vote him to bring him out. Simply put, after he posted I switched to Ottoxlol. I Love how Midnight, StDaniel and marvellosity switched their votes to me at the end of the day. I am aware that I need one more vote to be sniped, which will be achieved by some clueless town or simply by the fourth scum(*ahem Ottoxlol ahem*) It's okay. I admit I've done some shit there and here, but some town players should realize that a lot of these 'cases' are just bad logic. When I flip green, you'll realize how dumb all of this was. Scum, you are killing yourselves by trying to kill me. Just a tip. You've been my main suspicion all day, that much has been clear. | ||
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On April 26 2012 06:50 Mementoss wrote: Two fairly convincing cases on Zephridd, scum buddies trying to bail ottoxol out? Seems unlikely at least for marv, not sure what to think about sentinel though. The fact that Sentinel is posting a legit case when hes in no danger to get lynched today gives him a lil' bit of town cred in my book, that is unless, both him and ottoxlol are scum. However I got a question for you Marv: What would scum motivation be saying lynching Risen or Johnny is retarded unless one of them is scum as well. Or unless its just completely random. Do you have a scum read on either Risen or Johnny? Also, why would he mention Johnny of all people, someone who was pushing the lynch down his neck very early. Just search Johnny in Zeph's filter to see how much they interact negatively. Hmm. I can't see johnny being scum at this stage. His posting has simply been too sincere. Risen is a possibility, but I kinda have a null read on him atm - I've not seriously combed his posts. I don't think it's worth that much to think about connections like that right now, because it could mean anything. If you or anyone has a serious objection against my case or others brought against Zephirdd, now is the time to say so, because as it stands he is my clearest scum read. | ||
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On April 26 2012 06:51 Zephirdd wrote: gotta love StDaniel's ninja vote. Also gotta love how forced people are analyzing my posts. Geez I should play more like Kenpachi and Bill Murray, I bet I'd feel more comfortable with this. Sentinel, I just pointed out town-confirmed reads, as in, reads that can be trusted to be pro-town. Opinions that we know that aren't scum opinions. Y'know, trustable opinions. No, I never said they are right. Marv, just because I never mention Sentinel, teh lurker, doesn't mean I can't vote him to bring him out. Simply put, after he posted I switched to Ottoxlol. I Love how Midnight, StDaniel and marvellosity switched their votes to me at the end of the day. I am aware that I need one more vote to be sniped, which will be achieved by some clueless town or simply by the fourth scum(*ahem Ottoxlol ahem*) It's okay. I admit I've done some shit there and here, but some town players should realize that a lot of these 'cases' are just bad logic. When I flip green, you'll realize how dumb all of this was. Scum, you are killing yourselves by trying to kill me. Just a tip. So you moved your vote off someone you didn't mention before on to something else. Let's look at your entire filter and your cases and mention of Ottoxlol. On April 25 2012 09:49 Zephirdd wrote: My scum reads are actually similar to BH's: marv, Midnight and Ottoxlol look bad to me. In fact, I'd say Ottoxlol is a better target than Sentinel for now. That's it. Literally, that's all you have on Ottoxlol. | ||
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On April 26 2012 07:11 Mementoss wrote: With an hour left, I don't like that you are avoiding the 2 most popular lynches. So you can't be put on a person with a possible green flip, since you would be almost the deciding vote. Although I see I do see the possibilty of MG being scummy. Agree with this. Also agree with your 'this is fucking hard as shit' comment. I have too few positive town reads to be able to narrow down the scumreads easily. There's lots of people who 'could' be scum atm. But I think Zephirdd is the most scummy by a margin (to repeat, his two votes today have a total of about 20 words combined backing them up. Wow). I would urge people to vote for Zephirdd ahead of Ottoxlol who could still just be bad town. | ||
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Mementoss - I can't entice you with some red Zephirdd? | ||
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The first one was on a lurker... iffy on day 2, but ok. Then the 2nd on Ottoxlol is backed up by one whole sentence you've said all game. What gives? What gives on your excitement that VE being JK made me look bad? | ||
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On April 26 2012 07:48 layabout wrote: Johnny i didn't think zeph was scummy yesterday and i said so. I still don't think he is now. And my number 1 scumread voted for him. MG has been truly apathetic towards today's lynch, he has put in very little effort and offered very little of his own thoughts. He was willing to write a case against Johnny, he gave up on it, and now he has hopped onto the zeph wagon because of reasons that he has apparently had for days that he is not willing to share with us. I think your case on MG is decent and in part mirrors some of the questions I put at him. But I think Zephirdd is scummier. And to repeat - I fucking hate St. Daniel's ninja vote. | ||
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On April 26 2012 08:02 layabout wrote: ottox if you don't switch onto MG i will kill you What the fuck? | ||
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On April 26 2012 08:26 Risen wrote: Maybe b/c there were a million lurkers D1 so to be even more hated in my mind you'd have to do something stupid like a last minute vote? He was leaning red start D2, he became greener to me with his posting, he started to appear more scummy but in my mind that's desperation about being a candidate for lynching. I think zephir is stupid, but I think he's stupid town. I'm not switching my vote to him. He became greener with his posting? You know, where he fully justifies his 2 votes he made today? With absolutely nothing? ffs | ||
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Was it that ottoxlol was set to be lynched and Risen fucked around with the majority mechanics and got zeph lynched instead? Meanwhile, zeph flipped town. not good :/ gonna point it out again, because i refuse it to get lost - st. daniel's ninja vote Gotta head off now. Some actions for tomorrow being resolving the clusterfuck of voting tonight and LURKERS. | ||
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On April 26 2012 21:05 Mementoss wrote: Damn, I have no good scum reads atm, hopefully can prod some players and find something eventually, still curious about ottoxlol, I will probably be afk most of the night. At this point I am happy to hear layabout on MG's case, as MG has been leaning the wrong side of null for me. Zephirdd flipping green has also helped get rid of some nagging doubts I had about layabout - because I thought Zeph was scum, I felt layabout's defence of him was a bit dodgy, but as it turns out he just had a better read on him than I did :/ Also we've now had the same situation twice: 1) BM ninja voting VE day 1 with a completely unacceptable reason given AFTER the lynch 2) St. Daniel ninja voting Zeph day 2 with NO excuse or reason | ||
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On April 26 2012 21:43 marvellosity wrote: At this point I am happy to hear layabout on MG's case, as MG has been leaning the wrong side of null for me. Zephirdd flipping green has also helped get rid of some nagging doubts I had about layabout - because I thought Zeph was scum, I felt layabout's defence of him was a bit dodgy, but as it turns out he just had a better read on him than I did :/ Also we've now had the same situation twice: 1) BM ninja voting VE day 1 with a completely unacceptable reason given AFTER the lynch 2) St. Daniel ninja voting Zeph day 2 with NO excuse or reason Further to this, I just went back and had a look-see, BM was also VE's primary scum candidate. I'm not sure how long we let 'meta' be an excuse to his complete lack of contribution and awful day 1 vote. On Day 2 of Mafia LI, wbg defended Toad multiple times on 'meta' but Toad was scum anyway. | ||
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On April 26 2012 23:52 Mementoss wrote: I said this before and I'll say it again. I would really like a shot on Ottoxlol tonight, everyone voting him will still find him scummy, and it could potentially waste day 3 discussion. Also depending on Ottoxlols flip it could give us some insight to Risen saving him. Do you find it likely we have a vig when, for example, BM was not shot in Night 1? | ||
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On April 27 2012 00:31 layabout wrote: I believe that ottoxlol is town and that we are likely dealing with two town therefore we should not flip either. | ||
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On April 27 2012 01:03 Mattchew wrote: was distracted by the pretty colors. Basically I was gonna argue that his correlations are not well founded. Remember Risen didn't save Ottox from a lynch, he simply made it a tie favoring zeph. His vote didn't matter in the least, which is why it makes almost no sense for him as scum to switch like he did. Ottox on the other hand can easily still be scum but I don't think it has anything to do with how Risen acted/voted It's a little bit dangerous to think like this imo. From reading the votethread it looks like this - Ottoxlol was leading 8-7 (inc. Risen's vote) before Broodking tied it up at 8-8. So Ottoxlol is set to be lynched. Then Risen votes for Zephirdd, making it a Zephirdd lynch, regardless of his subsequent switchback. This means that Risen saved Ottoxlol from the lynch one way or another, and could be using the switchback as a desperate/confused townie look. I am well aware this is all wifom, but my point is that it's not necessarily correct that it makes no sense for a Risen-scum to switch like he did - it is in fact plausible. | ||
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On April 27 2012 01:18 layabout wrote: If that is the case then risen's open panicking in the thread was for nothing. hmmmmm... Would i be correct that this is in fact this vote that switched the lynch from ottox to zephird? and this is the explanation for it? See my post above on how the voting went down, layabout. I believe Broodking had made another post on Zephirdd before that one, see spoiler below + Show Spoiler + On April 26 2012 02:19 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Marvel It seems like your posting has gotten a lot better since you started so I am going to take my scum suspicions off you. I still have mixed feelings on your scattershot accusations, but they seem to be based off real facts. You asked me about Zephirdd/Sentinel/Ottoxlol. Out of the three of them I find Zephirdd pretty scummy, his last minute vote seemed rushed to me as if he was a Mafia trying to jump a bandwagon. Regardless of the fact that he mistimed the vote he made a post like this: I see this post as quite scummy, what does he mean by will reconsider? That statement leads me to believe that he bandwagoned the vote(which he in fact admitted) and is trying to set up a situation where he can say that the vote was rushed later. This post is also very scummy, what is the point of creating a scum list based on no evidence? He says not to take it seriously, but then why did he post it? He then says that he would have put his vote on marvel, one of the people on this "emotion-based" scum list, seems pretty fishy to me. He easily could have made a scumslip, and is trying to make up a hypothetical situation which makes him look better. He then flips around the idea of him making a case/analysis, and proceeds to say that he doesn't need to make a strong case against anyone. Recently he has been using more of his hypothetics to convince people to not vote for him. This is WIFOM reasoning and leads me to believe he is trying to mislead the town. I only see one useful post (the one about his reads on the town), but it even has a lot of unsupported conlclusions and blatant contradictions. I'll have my thoughts on Uon and Ottoxol in my next post. | ||
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On April 27 2012 01:22 layabout wrote: Nevermind risen is still responsible for the target changing. But look! BK "ninja" voted too and we almost missed it. No he didn't, as per my post above. | ||
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On April 27 2012 01:25 layabout wrote: interestingly enough marv BK writes: and delivers us this: Yes, this is also something I had noticed. The way I read it at the time was in the 2nd post, he was following through on his 1st - he was looking at Ottoxlol, and he hadn't found anything major and so was asking. Not great since Ottoxlol has posted scummily in parts, but it does suggest he went to look like he said. What he didn't do is post his thoughts on Sentinel as promised. That's fact. | ||
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On April 27 2012 01:39 layabout wrote: If he was follwoing through and asking for us to tell him stuff, then surely he should also follow through and either produce stuff and tell that he judges zephirdd to be scum and ottoxlol to be __>not as good a lynch a zephird<__ . Then place his vote on zephirdd. He should also do this when there is enough time left for people to assess what he says and possibly respond to it. His vote would then clearly be on zephirdd. It is as if he was reluctant to put his vote on zephirdd and only put his vote on at the very end. Consider the scenario in which BroodkingExe, Risen and Ottoxlol are all scum. Can you think of a more reasonable one? I think I'm not quite grasping your point of view. The way I saw things unfold were 1) Broodking outlined why he found Zephirdd scummy, said he'd look at ottoxlol/sentinel 2) Looked at Ottoxlol, didn't find anything, asked town about him 3) He didn't find anything convincing on Ottoxlol, so placed his vote on his stronger read from earlier (Zephirdd) Somewhere in this timeline is the failure to examine Sentinel as promised. It almost seems what you're saying is that he should have produced an anti-case on Ottoxlol? which I don't quite get. Primarily the dodgy thing is his total failure to look at Sentinel, no? Finally, to your trio - yes, it's entirely plausible. But it could just be connections that panned out that way. For example, you seem to think Risen and Ottoxlol are probably town. | ||
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I can still understand Broodking voting the way he did if he was town - express scummy thoughts on Zeph, voice townie concerns on ottoxlol, finally sees nothing for why he should vote ottoxlol and votes for Zephirdd. BUT - your narrative also makes sense. Whichever way you swing it, leaving it THAT LATE to vote is... well, it's a bit ugh. And it could very well appear that Broodking and Risen colluded to get Ottoxlol lynched, with Risen playing the weird switch-back card. It all boils down to this though - your narrative only makes sense if you believe Ottoxlol to be scum. If you don't, then it falls apart. You've expressed more than once that you feel Ottoxlol to be probably town. Is the sequence of voting at the end enough to now convince you that he's scum? Is that actually enough? | ||
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On April 27 2012 02:40 layabout wrote: EBWOP: i wrote this in the wrong place, it does not belong in the quote: It looks like my townread on Ottoxlol is incorrect, because it would require me to make too many assumptions to maintain it. To elaborate: Namely Broodking and Risen coordinated voteswitches at the last minute to change the lynch. The idea that both of them are town is very difficult for me to accept. If they are not town then both of them being scum seems to make the most sense and it would also lead me to think that Ottoxlol is also scum. Ok, question for you: If Broodking/Risen are scum, why would Broodking not place his vote on Zephirdd considerably earlier (thus getting Zephirdd to 8 votes first) rather than perform this ridiculous act at the end of voting? | ||
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On April 27 2012 02:57 layabout wrote: Why would somebody on the mafia team be reluctant to place his vote on the wagon of a townie? Remember at 4:45 when Broodking posted about Ottox, zephird only had 2 votes (Jaanan and Johnnywub). zephird gathered some votes. + Show Spoiler [aside] + MG was one of these votes and since i think he is scum it makes sense to me that scum might not want to vote at the same time to oppose a wagon on one of their team mates. I will wager that by this point at least 1 member of their team on the zephird wagon. In this sense it makes sense for them to hold off on voting for him immediately because they would ideally like to keep the number of them on the townie wagon as low as possible since those players get more heavily scrutinised. by 07:17 it was tied 6-6 and Ottoxlol still had his vote. So from this point onwards they could get zephird lynched and Ottoxlol can do it by legitimately saying that he is trying to save himself. So there was no need for anymore of them to be on the wagon. When 2 more votes came in fairly late for ottox they needed to act and so they did.+ Show Spoiler [aside] + Risen ending up on Ottoxlol would also show just how much they did not want to be on the votes for a mislynch This all makes me so uncomfortable. None of what you say doesn't make sense, but it doesn't HAVE to make sense. If scum were analysing the situation, I think it was fairly clear by Mattchew's posting that he would favour Ottoxlol over Zephirdd. That only leaves you as the wildcard, although I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) you had expressed the opinion that Ottoxlol was a bit more likely to be scum than Zephirdd, although you believed them both to be town. It may well be possible that scum were trying to avoid too many people on the Zephirdd wagon, but your/Matt's votes cannot have been totally unexpected. We can also discount Ottoxlol's vote because town or scum he's going to vote to save himself. It strikes me as an incredibly risky play for them to bank on one of you two voting for Zephirdd, when the alternative is as it works out - Broodking votes superlate and Risen does his ridiculous switch shenanigans. In my eyes it would seem 'safer' for Broodking to put his vote on Zephirdd anytime between his 04:45 post and somewhere around 07:00, thus avoiding the possibility that occurred. And his vote wouldn't be shocking as he'd already called Zephirdd scummy. It would also assume scumteam came to the decision to save Ottoxlol with some desperate last-minute votes rather than bus him and try to get some towncred. | ||
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On April 27 2012 03:52 ghost_403 wrote: Guys. Guys. Guys. Guys. Risen claimed scum in thread. There's no need for WIFOM about why he screws up the vote and ended Day 2 with us lynching a townie. The fact of the matter is he screws up the vote and ended Day 2 with us lynching a townie. That's the only thing that's important. I believe that the scum chose to do this in order to protect their KP. Risen rolled GF, Ottoxlol rolled scum. It makes sense that they would sacrifice Risen in order to protect their KP for one more night. Let's step back again away from all of the WIFOM and take a look at what happened yesterday again: 1) Town thinks Ottoxlol is scummy and moves to lynch him. 2) Town is ready to lynch Ottoxlol right up to the deadline. 3) Risen's vote stops us from lynching Ottoxlol. There is no reason for a town Risen to do this. Period. Therefore, Risen must be scum. The path ahead of us is clear. If you're a JK/Tracker, actions on Ottoxlol tonight. If you're a vig, shoot Risen tonight. Yes, it's all been rather WIFOMy, was hoping to get it out the way all at once while people were online. Your 1-3 points don't take into account that it was pretty close anyway. Plenty of town thought Zephirdd was scummy too. Regarding the bolded part: I had not considered that at all. That's quite an important distinction in this setup. The whole problem I have with all the reasoning from you or layabout is that scum could have made it so much easier on themselves by simply having someone vote for Zephirdd earlier on. I just don't get why they'd set themselves up for the potential situation that happened. It just doesn't make sense to me that scum would let it come down to the wire and then make a desperation move. Risen or someone else could have switched their vote way earlier and then all this discussion wouldn't be anywhere near happening like it is. | ||
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On April 27 2012 04:29 layabout wrote: You don't think that scum would deliberately change the lynch target at the last second? Or you don't think that they would try to pass it off as a mistake? scum have done in the past, most notably + Show Spoiler [here] + In my first game of mafia TL Mafia XLVII The scumteam commit a huge voteswitch at the end of the day to kill Palmer and BC. A voting update was posted during the switch and as a consequence of that bumatlarge who had been part of the switch accused hum teammates of claiming scum in the thread. Some of them then did claim scum in the thread. The point is that it's possible but what I have written is possible too. You would have to assume that scum blundered massively by not putting a vote on Zephirdd earlier and avoiding all this. You also have to assume Ottoxlol is scum, and you probably have to assume Ottoxlol is goon for Risen to have saved him like that. That's a fair amount of assuming - much like you were uncomfortable making the opposite assumptions. Now, if we are going to lynch Risen, we should be very sure about lynching him on the basis of his entire play this game, not just the moment of retardation/scummyness at voting close. Because if Risen is scum, then we get Ottoxlol for free. So we'd better be bloody sure Risen is scum, because the benefits are so great and obviously town is in terrible shape if we mislynch. This means we have to lynch Risen not just on the basis of the vote swap, but his entire behaviour. | ||
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On April 27 2012 04:51 Ottoxlol wrote: If I am scum, BK is town. If he were scum he would have voted before mat and laya so I wouldve lived without Risens help. Why would you even comment or speculate on this if you're town?! | ||
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On April 27 2012 05:10 Ottoxlol wrote: I pointed out that is a mistake in his argument. I think BK is town. If JK/Tracker thinks I am scum, pointing out the uselessness of tracking or jailing BK is good. The mistake in his argument if you're town is that you're town. | ||
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On April 27 2012 05:16 Ottoxlol wrote: no, he says to jail and or track BK when if I am scum its worthless since that would mean BK is town. BK is town because... he was one of the deciding votes who saved you? No. BK could go either way. | ||
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But in no way would the fact that he failed to do so clear him if you are scum. To repeat, his was one of the votes that helped save you. THIS DOES NOT MAKE HIM TOWN. | ||
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On April 27 2012 07:26 Mementoss wrote: St.Daniel = Inactive BillMurray = Lurking imo Right, but that doesn't help us much one way or another. | ||
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On April 27 2012 07:33 PaqMan wrote: Let's get some discussion going? I wish I hadn't voted for Zephirdd but I wanted my vote to count, and I had no support for Risen. My reason for voting him over Ottox was that I believed Ottox was just a bad townie. Ghosts's posts are good, they'e just about convinced me otherwise. Idk but it's also kind of strange how he keeps declaring that BK and Risen are town. There are numerous cases against Risen. If you're not confident about his alignment I suggest you read those cases and decide. And did he ever get more than one vote? During the day cycle clearly I will have to indeed go over the Risen cases and Risen's filter to make my own judgement, yes. | ||
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On April 27 2012 07:50 layabout wrote: Generally this is correct. However, Please tell me if you think i am making a mistake in this post click, because the way i see it we can draw those conclusions and we would only be incorrect to do so if multiples absurdities had coincided and all of them are acting to the detriment of our glorious town. I've already given you other plausible possibilities. | ||
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On April 27 2012 08:12 johnnywup wrote: Ok, but did you read my post? I don't think this voteswitching is alignment indicative at all. Just so... it can be a piece to fit into a jigsaw, but it can't be a case in itself. | ||
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On April 27 2012 08:24 johnnywup wrote: laya, he switched back. it could be an honest mistake of not thinking about the tie rule. I do find votes alignment indicative but in this specific situation I can't see this being specifically scummy or townie, or revealing of either players alignment based on a flip. his voting on ottox in the first place may be alignment indicative, but the vote switch isn't. i think its probable he just forgot about the tie rule. If you think he realized "oh, my voteswitch and the voteswitch back will change first majority to zeph, but my vote won't change really", then carry on thinking that, but I don't think that that is what happened. I'm somewhere in the middle I think. Like - it looks bad, and the fact of the matter is, his last minute switch DID CHANGE the result. It really could be scum trying to save their KP. On the other hand, it is also entirely possible that Broodking voted late just because he wasn't sure, and he finally voted on who he found scummy, and Risen just fucked up. This is why I said earlier, when we lynch someone tomorrow there better be a good total case on them, not just this voting weirdness. | ||
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On April 27 2012 09:04 Mementoss wrote: well I only had 5 minutes to whip something up that was in my mind bro you mad at it? Not mad at all, just baffled that that would be the one thing you chose. | ||
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On April 27 2012 19:27 Risen wrote: I'm going to sleep. Will look through Mt's filter tomorrow to see if he was trying to point something out to us from his night 1 tracking result. Um, we want youir best cases and reads as promised first | ||
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But before this, the lurker problem. Let's go. BroodkingEXE: Spoilered below is his one significant post over the last few days. + Show Spoiler + On April 26 2012 02:19 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Marvel It seems like your posting has gotten a lot better since you started so I am going to take my scum suspicions off you. I still have mixed feelings on your scattershot accusations, but they seem to be based off real facts. You asked me about Zephirdd/Sentinel/Ottoxlol. Out of the three of them I find Zephirdd pretty scummy, his last minute vote seemed rushed to me as if he was a Mafia trying to jump a bandwagon. Regardless of the fact that he mistimed the vote he made a post like this: I see this post as quite scummy, what does he mean by will reconsider? That statement leads me to believe that he bandwagoned the vote(which he in fact admitted) and is trying to set up a situation where he can say that the vote was rushed later. This post is also very scummy, what is the point of creating a scum list based on no evidence? He says not to take it seriously, but then why did he post it? He then says that he would have put his vote on marvel, one of the people on this "emotion-based" scum list, seems pretty fishy to me. He easily could have made a scumslip, and is trying to make up a hypothetical situation which makes him look better. He then flips around the idea of him making a case/analysis, and proceeds to say that he doesn't need to make a strong case against anyone. Recently he has been using more of his hypothetics to convince people to not vote for him. This is WIFOM reasoning and leads me to believe he is trying to mislead the town. I only see one useful post (the one about his reads on the town), but it even has a lot of unsupported conlclusions and blatant contradictions. I'll have my thoughts on Uon and Ottoxol in my next post. Where he calls Zephirdd scummy without apparently being sure. This is to be followed by his last-minute vote on Zephirdd that layabout absolutely hated. Also as noted before he promised us his thoughts on Sentinel and gave us nothing. Need more atm. St. Daniel: Mr Lurky himself. Food poisoning or not, I will requote my earlier post, spoilered below, showing how he posted 3 times in another game and 0 in this one despite promising to: + Show Spoiler + On April 25 2012 21:04 marvellosity wrote: First of all - sorry if you were ill, that sucks. Nonetheless I will point this out This post in no way explains the post below. You were well enough to post at 3 distinct times in a different game yesterday yet not at all in this one. Excuse or not, that is still dodgy. Further this we have a ninja and hitherto totally unexplained vote on Zephirdd. Anyway, we have a bunch of totally meaningless posts from him of late. On April 25 2012 11:29 St.Daniel wrote: Sorry guys. To make a long story short, I was retarded and I had food poisoning. I sincerely apology. I'll try my best to dedicate to this games. Alright, although as mentioned it didn't explain the inconsistency in my spoilered post. On April 25 2012 11:55 St.Daniel wrote: Why are you retracting your statement? What made you think that your previous analysis on Marvellosity was lacking or invalid? There must be a reason why you are not as sure as you were before. Also, "for now?" Do you still think Marv is a scum? PS - I'm trying to get back into the game. Ok, asking Zephirdd about his stance on me, fair enough I guess. Again mentioning how he's trying to get back into the game. On April 27 2012 08:51 St.Daniel wrote: I agree. We should also consider who someone voted with. For sample, if 2 or more people casted the lynch vote on same person for multiple lynches, thst's something we need to take a look at. Note that my theory doesn't work 100% of times but it is something to think about. Speculation that doesn't actually help anything. On April 27 2012 08:56 St.Daniel wrote: What's up, Paqman  Wow. Glad he posted this nugget of wisdom. On April 27 2012 09:07 St.Daniel wrote: Alright. It seems I'm back before BM. This is what happened: I was playing two games of mafia like a total idiot and I got a food poisoning on Monday. I was sick as a dog for a couple days and I had dropped the other game because I just couldn't keep up. First and foremost, I apologize to all of you for being inactive. It was all my fault to join two games at the same time. I've learned my lesson. Also I'm so grateful to iGrok for correcting me of my mistake and understanding of my situation. YET ANOTHER POST apologising for his absence. If he spent half the bloody time scumhunting as apologising we might be getting somewhere. But no. On April 27 2012 12:26 St.Daniel wrote: It's ok, iGrok. I hope your job interview went well. I swear I didn't think Mementoss would die. Also, we don't have Vig? That's rather unfortunate, because we spent good chunk of first day talking about it (leading up to VE's claim). My guess are now MG, Sentinel, Mattchew and PaqMan. More wishy washy crap on job interview, Mementoss dieing, vigi, followed by totally unsubstantiated finger pointing. And still absolutely no explanation of his vote on Zephirdd. No, I don't like any of this at all. I'm very much leaning scum on him at the moment. Bill Murray: the 'wildcard' as it were. Bad vote and explanation on VE day 1. 'Had a busy life' day 2. Alright alright. But at some point he needs to start contributing with actual cases. Janaan: My only lurky person who I'm leaning on the town-side of null. I'd simply like to hear a lot more from him. | ||
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On April 27 2012 23:28 johnnywup wrote: marv your whole argument is that he doesn't say anything with his post, which I can say about your argument against him too. you're "commentating" his posts but you're not making an actual argument on why he's scum He's saying absolutely nothing. He has completely blanked the fact that he posted 3 times in another game on a day and not in this one. He has completely blanked and failed to explain his vote on Zephirdd. He's giving a list of scum without any reasoning at all. What more do you want me to say? | ||
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On April 28 2012 04:55 Mattchew wrote: Scum is in these 6 players and if at anypoint I die please lynch these Ottox Risen Brood BM MG St.Daniel I also feel this is the case. For all the crap Ottoxlol has posted, this is totally true: On April 28 2012 04:48 Ottoxlol wrote: Not willing to discuss other people is anti town. I feel I am getting lynched today, but I would like see other names coming up from everyone. When I flip town you will have no information to work with. So no, is not enough I haven't seen analysis from anyone yet, and that makes me a sad panda. I'm going to shower and then do my best to do some myself, I would encourage everyone else to as well. At the moment we have the Ottoxlol/Risen issue, but saying "vote x" isn't really sorting it out, is it? | ||
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On April 28 2012 05:40 BroodKingEXE wrote: @johnny If we lynch him noe we have a 50% chance of lynching a goon or GF. I'd rather we take the chance than lynch another townie. Great if it he is a goon as they lose a KP, if not we take out a GF which is fine too. In terms of information, people having been defending and accusing him why dont we look at that? Yes, go on then, please analyse it and tell us what you find, eh? | ||
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On April 28 2012 06:14 Mattchew wrote: Hey janaan why don't you stop asking questions and give some opinions on the topics/players of the day. What do you think of my plan for a course of action and scum list? This a hundred times over | ||
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On April 28 2012 06:41 Mattchew wrote: ok taking a long look into janaan. I did have a look quite recently, and as in my post a little earlier I found he posted quite sensible although not too much. I don't know if that's because he's good at blending in. What I don't like is that his most recent posts basically contributed jack shit to the discussion. At the moment I'm going through the monumental task that is Risen. | ||
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On April 28 2012 06:45 Janaan wrote: My thoughts on your list As for your plan, I don't think it's a bad one. I still think the votes shouldn't start piling up until later so that there's a reason for people to talk, but that's just my opinion. The problem with making connections like you've done is that until a scum is flipped, it's all speculation. It's still possible for scum to be outside your list, I just don't know where. For the time being, those 6 are a good place to start, and I do agree that Ottoxlol is who we should start with. Ok, if we put Ottoxlol to the side, who exactly is your best scumread and why? I would like your best read AND accompanying case if possible. | ||
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On April 28 2012 07:14 ghost_403 wrote: @marv: K. Why? Because actually Risen is quite well known for doing dumb and emotional shit, and actually around the deadline with votes very close is a quite plausible time for him to go a bit crazy. Look how emotionally invested he gets into each game and argument. In this case Risen could be 'bad' as you put it because he's all over the place, not because he's a bad player. I'm not saying what I'm saying IS necessarily the case, but it could very well be the case. Your argument is that there is only one plausible option, which I simply do not accept. | ||
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On April 28 2012 07:30 ghost_403 wrote: @marv: I clearly state there are two positions. Either Risen is bad/emotional/whatever, or Risen is scum. I'm saying the second one of those is the better conclusion. Yes, but that's not a case. That's you thinking one is more likely than the other. THAT IS NOT A CASE. | ||
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On April 28 2012 07:39 ghost_403 wrote: My conclusion is better because it doesn't rely on a player being terrible in order to explain what happened yesterday. Sorry I can't find any quotes where he says "I'm scum, lynch me". Know why that is? It's because he's not terrible. Yes, your case relies on multiple people being terrible. Only a terrible scum TEAM would have let the situation that occurred at the end of the day occur. Risen (or another scum) could have changed their vote MUCH EARLIER. Your case relies on scum fucking up and not doing so. Understand? | ||
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On April 28 2012 07:43 ghost_403 wrote: So you think an entire team with RISEN IN IT is just as terrible? | ||
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On April 28 2012 07:47 johnnywup wrote: There is no reason for town risen to do what he did other than he's terrible? indecisiveness? fear? theres quite a few reasons a town risen would do what he did. just so you know, it seems to be that risen thought the lynch would go back to ottox. so what's the point of your argument? That's just not an argument either. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Alright, Risen post time. First of all I will spoiler gonzaw's case and then gonzaw's response to Risen's response (if that makes sense). Then I will spoiler Paqman's main case. This is so all you lazy people don't have to go a-searching, and it'll be helpful having everything here. As I'm summarising, it's also worth pointing out that at some point slOosh found Risen's play 'off'. + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 01:16 gonzaw wrote: Risen: I'd like to lynch Risen and I'll tell you why This post is wishy washy as hell. First he starts by being unnecessary apologetic when laya called him out. He posts a very wishy washy statement like "from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy". Really? That's not the town Risen I know of. The town Risen I know of would instantly find people scummy and try to create discussion. Town Risen wouldn't stay neutral and spout wishy washy shit like "I'm not sure who's scummy". Then he keeps trying to appear more "innocent" and neutral by saying things like "I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting". Then the rest of the post is fluff about Mementos' plan. He doesn't seem to have a solid stance on the matter (says things like "I don't like directing blues, though I realize this game has special stuff going on") yet he just keeps talking about it. Also, please note the tone of his post. It seems neutral, but most of all it's not aggressive at all. It seems submisive. Layabout called him out and he seems afraid and posts only because he was called out. Also take notice of the bolded "Posting lots is pro-town" bit, I'll use it later. He just barely comments on the marvel issue, but doesn't really take any stances. He keeps up with his "I still don't think anybody is scummy" excuse to avoid taking stances on people. He also doesn't comment on other things happening in the thread, like VE's "case" on me, or my case against VE, or the Paqman/Mattchew issue, nothing. Again, note the bolded bit too. Now here's the kicker. Here he goes against layabout and votes him, and his reason is "I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me"... ...really? I already said how this seems like Toad's play from LI. He ignores current discussion, he avoids taking a stance on the current events, and instead decides to FoS someone completely irrelevant for shitty reasons, and keeps his vote there. This vote only disrupts town because he fails to justify it and derails current discussions. Not only that, but it makes it so he can "justify" his vote and just leave it there, so he can fake trying to contribute. But there's another important thing to take into account: Notice how aggressive he's become against layabout. Why did the tone of his post and his behaviour change so much? In that first post he sounded afraid. Laya called him out and he sounded submissive against him, he was the opposite of aggressive. He posted trying to please laya, had a very neutral tone, was wishy-washy and didn't take any stances. Yet now that layabout points out Risen being suspicious, he flips and goes all crazy against him? Really? I don't buy that change of behaviour, it's inconsisent, it's way too sudden and doesn't make sense with the way he was posting before. Hey, remember that bolded bits I was mentioning before? Here: He says that posting a lot is pro-town, yet he's not following his own advice and is barely posting! So really people, Risen is scum because:
So people, let's lynch Risen ##Unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Risen + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 08:18 gonzaw wrote: Okay, major thoughts after spending like 3 hours reading the thread: About Risen: First of all, I'll deal with your "rebuttal" (if you can call it that) of my case here: + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 06:45 Risen wrote: What kind of stupid shit is this? By request of jubjub Pac I'll respond. Wishy washy? What the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game? How the hell could ANYONE have true feelings of someone being scum that early on. You can have policies that guide you, such as kill every idiot you see, like anyone on VE or lynch lurkers like BM, but you can't possibly have feelings of people being scummy that early on. Only people who are atrocious at this game would take that point seriously. Oh look, we have pac taking it seriously. I'm so shocked. You say this posting looks like Toad from LI? Awesome. I'm not Toad. Also, where do you get me being SUBMISSIVE to layabout. The guy was playing like an idiot and I called him out on it. If you count me apologizing for cursing as being "submissive" then you need to get your head checked. How can you go from me voting layabout to trying to get approval from him. Stupidity at it's finest. BUT Pac wants me to address this piece of shit case so lets keep going. Wtf? Risen, as soon as LI started you pressured people (ET, johnny, others), you FoSed them and started discussion. And it was like 2 hours into D1 You can't possibly use the "what the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game?" excuse at all when you don't don't do that when you are town. Yes, you were being submissive, before you called laya out, not after (geez read my fucking post I specifically quote the post I'm talking about) On to your little bullets. 1) I've been busy as all hell, but I've been trying to come in and read and post instead of lurk. Screw it, I should have just lurked. You're right, posting in the thread is anti-town. My bad, I was wrong. I'll stop posting. Thanks for the sarcasm that doesn't accomplish anything. Okay, so you pull off the "busy" excuse...does that justify your lack of activity until then? If you are busy/go away/etc you should tell us so we know about it before we even have to point that out to you. 2) Not taking a solid stance? I SAID DONT DIRECT BLUES. IT IS BAD. How much more solid does it get? What do I have to do to make it more solid? It seemed to me you were just talking just to talk there. You said things like "Well, but I don't see how pointing that out is scummy, but well..", spent talking quite a lot about Mementoss' plan, and all that just to say "don't direct blues". Don't worry though, this is not that important 3) A flimsy vote on layabout? You right... because votes before a day has passed in the game are going to be super solid. Oh wait. They're not. Only an idiot or scum would try and say something like this. I'm leaning idiot because at least your vote isn't with the derps on VE. Yes it's a flimsy vote, and don't use that excuse again, you know it doesn't work like that and it doesn't justify your vote AT ALL. For instance, there were PLENTY of JUSTIFIED votes from other players before you voted layabout, so your point is rendered moot and only serves to make it seem you are avoiding justifying your vote at all and misdirecting it. 4) I like how you call me passive and then point number 4 is saying I'm being too aggressive. This case is air tight guys, let's all get on the Risen choo choo. Right Janaan? Read my case. You were extremely passive until layabout called you out. Then you became extremely aggressive ALMOST INSTANTLY 5) People don't have lives my b I always forget about that. I wasn't supposed to head back to Vegas until next weekend and when I signed up for this game it didn't matter anyways. It took two years to start, though, and I've only been able to read the thread from my phone. Now I'm able to type on a keyboard and tear this horrid case to shreds. Excuses, excuses, excuses. You can't possibly tell me that you think people calling you out because you are not posting means we are idiots because we didn't know that you "weren't supposed to head back to Vegas" or you were "busy" right? Yes, it's possible you were busy, it's possible that Vegas thing happened and you were away or something. However, it's very possible that you had tiny bits of free time between those times to post too. It's entirely possible that you are scum, you were "busy", but when you had free time you just said "Oh fuck it, supposedly I'm still "busy" so I'll just not post for a while". I did it in Newbie IV for instance, where I just said things like "I'm going to uni and I'll be busy this week so I won't be able to post too much". I was busy and going to uni, but when I came back home I just read the thread, read the scum QT and talked to some people there and then did nothing at all and keep lurking. Then every other time I posted I'd say "Oh I'm back from uni/I'm not that busy anymore/blablabla". I wasn't lying, but I was exaggerating it so I was justified in not posting. So you making these kind of excuses doesn't let you off the hook at all. And like I said, if you are going to be legitimately busy, or going away to Vegas (or coming back to Vegas, I didn't really understand that part), then if you don't want misunderstandings you point it out to us. It's not required if you are able to establish your innocence before it, but since you completely failed at that in your case, yes you should have. Also, here's his filter from LI (was town): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046&user=62525 The fact that I could almost instantly peg him as town in that game, while I'm having lots of doubts about his alignment this game should indicate something, at least regarding Risen's earlier behaviour (before he went through that AFK period) I'm kind of torn about this now. Before he started being "active" again, he was scummy as fuck. However, he started using his usual "townie" aggressive act after being called out. He started being assholes to everybody, posting actively, and FoSing everybody without any reasoning at all and just being a dick. There are 2 interesting aspects I found:
Now, this may seem like a conspiracy theory, but even though Risen's past actions would "exonerate" him in many people's eyes (because he's playing to his meta, posting actively, going against the VE lynch and trying to lynch BM, etc), the way he performed said actions, and the way he's been acting regarding those other players make me very uneasy. I find it possible Risen is scum, decided to go all "Fuck this shit I'll FoS everybody, play to my town meta and oppose the VE lynch to gain cred", which is why I'm pointing this out. Holy shit this post is gigantic, I'll post my thoughts on other players in a minute + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 06:53 PaqMan wrote: Risen is scum. + Show Spoiler + On April 21 2012 14:14 Risen wrote: He already pointed it out in his post voting for you. You're a little late. Posting from my phone I'll be home in a couple hours but it's a little late. Just read everything on my phone, though. Alright, cool, nothing really wrong with it. No real content and nothing that circulates discussion, but hey it's his first post. I'll give that to him. One thing to note is the bolded though. On April 22 2012 02:22 Risen wrote: Yeah I'm sorry. Just woke up. I'll get posting. Posting lots is pro-town and from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy. I'd rather we put pressure on someone who isn't posting. I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting. From the last page I do have a problem with mementoss' idea. It seems solid but as you said on this page, all vigs would have to get on board. I don't like directing blues in the first place (i realize this game has special stuff going on, though, so I don't think forwarding the idea is scummy. I just don't think we should do it). Another problem with your plan mt is your directing of jailkeepers. By directing jk away from targets and the vigis you give scum a potential three kill night. They can kill the vig, another person, and then if the vigi target is town they get to laugh at us. To sum, don't direct blues. I think there's been enough discussion about it and with no clearly best plan there's no way to get everyone behind one plan. #1 - He posts this roughly 30 minutes after layabout's post. He coincidentally woke up when he name gets mentioned. I'll give him benefit of the doubt on this one #2 - posting lots is pro-town. But, you don't even have a full page of posts in your filter, even though D1 is a few hours from ending.#3 - posting lots is pro-town and from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy. So what does that mean? Well he's doing what I was previously accusing Mattchew of, not taking a definite side. He's not making a solid opinion on anything. The rest of his post is fluffy. He gives his input on MT's plan and that's it. He doesn't establish any solid ground on any of the issues at hand. His only mention of scum is that "nobody looks scummy". On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote: I don't get your reasoning mt or anyone else's voting for marvel. He's posting and it's very early day 1. There isn't that much to go off of so I don't think he's scummy. This part's important as he does end up voting marv with a very stupid reason. On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote: I hatelurkers, they always fuck us and it isn't pro-town at all. I'd rather not lynch someone who's here day 1. And who does Risen end up voting for? Marv! Risen is full of shit. His only reason for voting marv is because marv voted for VE. But what about Bill Murray? Dude's lurking the entire D1 and votes for VE. Based on just this quote you would think that Risen votes BM but he jumps right in the wagon that BJ made and votes marv. On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote: Posting is pro-town and I don't think we should be scaring people away from posting day 1 bc it just gives people an excuse to be worthless dafuq are you talking about? His next post is basically useless but the next 3 posts are is gold. On April 22 2012 02:58 Risen wrote: Oh, alright. I had read the vigi shot being refunded, but didn't apply that to them not shooting if they were killed. And wtf? Where the fuck do you get me targeting ANYONE right now? Do you see me voting any "lurkers"? Did I point any out? No. I didn't. Why didn't I? Because I know how early it is in the game. Take your useless shit somewhere else layabout. What's with the sudden freak out? All layabout does is make a little comment on you and you blow up. On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote: I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too. He immediately votes layabout all because of this little comment: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote: Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us? Also take note of the bold. That's his only mention of BJ&BH. The next couple of posts are useless. So far he still hasn't contributed jack to Town and his posts are weak. UNTIL we get to this one: Why is he so defensive all of a sudden? He definitely is acting off. He's acting like he's guilty of something. He immediately proclaims himself as an easy wagon. But look where he ends up putting his most recent vote! On April 22 2012 03:56 Risen wrote: No. Why even bring that up? I'd call you scum if I thought you were scum. Scum aren't the only ones who jump on a stupid wagon. Lazy townies who don't feel like posting or playing jump on them and screw town too. Again he's acting way too overly-defensive. Chill out bro. On April 23 2012 04:27 Risen wrote: Hey folks. I'm not actually voting layabout. Just woke up, was out drinking last night. I'm going to be going through everyone's filters and I'll make a giant post containing my analysis. It has been two hours since and he still hasn't made his giant post. So far he's keeping up with the thread so I highly doubt he's even working on one. On April 23 2012 04:27 Risen wrote: Let me catch up on the thread, though. Why are there two votes on me? I assumed when layabout wasn't able to start the choo choo that train died. He's "surprised" he has votes on him and is still convinced that layabout's little comment was an attempt to start a wagon on him. It's been two hours since he woke up and that's plenty of time to read through the thread. Despite this, he still has not said a single thing on Gonzaw's case against him. He hasn't brought it up nor has he made a single mention of it. As of that^^ post he still has not given any solid opinions on who is scummy and who's not. Spoilered because I don't want to clutter my case >.> + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote: Honestly johnnywup is my biggest scumread atm Pac. I have no idea why he thinks forwarding another lynch candidate at the last second is a good idea, and it just shits up the thread. Do we take the case against him seriously? Do we try and organize everyone to swap their votes over to zeph even though no one else has mentioned zeph as a serious candidate thus far? We can't do that, we don't have the time. Okay, finally have an opinion. johnnyboy is your biggest scumread. On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote: I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim. Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess. I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel. ##vote marvellosity He shits up the rest of this post with useless crap. But wait!! Despite johnnyboy having Risen's biggest scumread, Risen votes for marv?!?!?! Whyyyy??? Here's why: On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote: I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel. ##vote marvellosity He's voting marv because marv placed his vote on VE. I call complete bullshit on Risen. He put his vote on marv because marv is easy wagon #1. Sound familiar? We got you cornered mofo. If Town has enough sense to realize this then you're getting lynched today. This next bit is kind of for ghost and (the deceased) layabout, and comes from gonzaw. + Show Spoiler + He starts his "Everybody voting VE is scum/idiot" thing (just like he did the "Everybody NOT voting VE is scum/idiot" thing in LI). However, he just fixates on marv and BM. He FoSes marv just for voting the claimed doctor...something 6 more players did and he didn't mention them at all at that point(he does briefly mention BM though). He does mention all of them in the 2nd post....but he doesn't make a lot of conclusive stands on them. He mentions that he thinks sloosh and layabout are just idiots, good. He mentions that he thinks marv and BM are scum..good I guess? He still doesn't state why he thinks marv is scum out of all those players just for voting VE (marv had stated reasons for voting VE before, just like most that voted VE by that point). He mentions BM and then starts the crusades to get him lynched, good. However...he mentions that Sentinel and Oxxolul are being "derps" for voting VE and mentions scummy things about them...but then he never mentions them again. If he FoSes marv for voting VE for shitty reasons, and he keeps picking up fights with him because of it, why doesn't he call Sentinel or Oxxolul out? I mean, we know that when he's town he just rages against EVERYBODY that does something he doesn't want to do or something he disapproves. Why does he completely ignore Sentinel and Oxxolul from then on? Why does he totally fixate on marv and BM, yet FoSes them using reasoning that applies to those other 2? He even implied he thought Oxo/Sentinel were suspicious or he was having doubts about them, it doesn't make any sense for him to ignore them. However, he just decides to "pick" the players that have more votes on them: marv and BM. That's quite a coincidence. Sentinel nor Oxxo had votes or suspicions on them, while marv and BM had votes and a lot of suspicions on them. It seems too much of a coincidence, specially since he doesn't mention anything about voting for marv/BM because they are more likely to get lynched or anything. What's the scum motivation for this? Well, the obvious one is that Otto and/or Sentinel are scum, marv and BM are town, and Risen decides to oppose the VE lynch to gain more town cred now that he's been called out. Since he decides to oppose the hell out of the VE lynch, he has to play to his town meta and FoS those that voted for VE, so he decides to FoS the townies that are under heavy suspicion from the ones that voted VE to blend in with other players. It may seem unlikely, but I don't see a town motivation for Risen to IGNORE both Sentinel and Ottolul throughout the whole game since that post of his, specially considering his heavy stance regarding VE, and those that voted for VE. We can note here that gonzaw specifically picked out that Risen hadn't been having a go at Ottoxlol or Sentinel. So it's nice for a bit of WIFOM at any rate. Unfortunately I think this might be slightly undone by a further fact. People need to pay attention to this. + Show Spoiler + On April 25 2012 08:53 Risen wrote: Done reading now. I looked at everyone and I think Ottoxlol has somehow managed to slip his way out of votes with the exception of mt. He'll be receiving my vote for now and this is why. + Show Spoiler + On April 21 2012 14:41 Ottoxlol wrote: I haven't played mafia on tl To the question you addressed to Paqman, I have some suspicions because some people doesnt like logic, but i think its too early to decide its their limitations or theyre scums. First thing that caught my eye. Tbh it's no biggie. It's a small thing, but I absolutely hate people who go "I'm noob". He's implying that he's played before, just somewhere else, so why does he need to say anything at all? On April 22 2012 06:52 Ottoxlol wrote: About marvel, i think he's not a scum just had no time to post, I would like to see him defend himself. He had 2 bad questions then he afked, I don't believe that's enough for my vote. He will post later, so I think it's useless to discuss. That's not enough for your vote but you put your vote on gonzaw b/c he FoSd you? On April 22 2012 07:38 Ottoxlol wrote: [UoN] Sentinel had two real posts, the first + Show Spoiler + Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point? At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues. He doesnt know that GFs cant shoot.. Nuf said, very bad post, calling out gonzaw but not making a case against his plan + Show Spoiler + I'm starting to think all of you people purposely post when I sleep Let's do it like this - everyone just do whatever the fuck they want as long as it's beneficial in some way to town. If it's not beneficial in some way to town, then lynch them. If there's one thing I know, it's that voting/lynching/etc. plans always benefit mafia because they can pull them to their advantage (and also you get lynched when your plan especially sucks). Keeping in mind with this train of thought, I will proceed to do whatever the fuck I want as long as it's beneficial in some way to town. When I get back, I'll read filters and try and put more on the table. I would wait till he put more on the table before we jump to conclusions, I disagree with that plans always benefiting mafia. He's talkin more in general terms, so maybe if he states his case more clearly we'll get more information. Sentinel, if you would be so kind to tell us your opinion about who's benefiting the town right now and who's not, i would like to read what do you think who should we lynch. The first half of his response can be taken two ways. One, he isn't catching onto the fact that sentinel means the godfathers having goons shoot them. The other, is that he knows this and is simply trying to make a post where he looks useful. The second half is fine, but he's asking for Sentinels thoughts without really doing much himself. On April 22 2012 16:36 Ottoxlol wrote: He has 5 votes right now against marv's 6. Is he a good player? He argued we shouldn't give any info to the scum then claim he's a JK. If he did not claim and we lynch marv or anyone, then scum wouldnt kill him because he had votes. This contradiction is enough for me to vote VE, everyone saying he is a good player, if he is indeed town JK he shouldn't have played this way. So I trust you guys on that he is good also that means he is a scum. ##Vote: VisceraEyes This is where some serious bells and whistles should be going off for anyone who spots it. Can't find it? "So I trust you guys on that he is good also that means he is a scum" What horrible justification for a vote. I'm aware he made a few posts asking VE questions, and finding him a little suspicious, but it feels like he's trying to shift the blame away from himself before VE even flips. Oh well, you guys say he's good and no one good would play like this so imma vote him. On April 22 2012 22:43 Ottoxlol wrote: Forget the plan, we already discussed it too much. I don't just disagree with your claim, I wrote it down why is it a bad play. You still did not respond Why does he edit his quote in his further responses to remove the part where he justifies his vote saying VE wouldn't play like this? Why not just quote it? It's small, but small things add up. I absolutely HATE people who edit the things they're quoting. On April 24 2012 15:52 Ottoxlol wrote: I havent finished reading everything, but so far I had an idea I thought I will write down the VE voters relationships maybe we can figure something out. Sentinel attacked BM Ottox did not attack anyone from this grp marv attacked Zeph BM defending Zeph and marv laya attacking marv, defending zeph Zeph attacking BM, and marv I think this will not make a strong read, but I try If Sentinel is scummy, we should investigate Zeph and vice versa If laya is scummy we should investigate Zeph and vice versa If marv is scummy we should investigate BM and vice versa . So my read is there are 0 or 2 scums in the VE voter group, maybe we can use this later What is this? It's the worst defined list I've ever seen. My mind is trying to wrap itself around the logic here but can't because it's intentionally confusing FOR NO REASON. On April 24 2012 16:57 Ottoxlol wrote: I don't get the sloosh kill btw, he contributed scarce, voted on VE. If not lynched he would have been pressured a lot today. Risen was the only one they both suspected to be scum, since sloosh kill has no other explanation then defending Risen I think he is town. Why are you buddying me here? By the logic in this post it sounds like you're accusing me of offing the people who were suspicious of me. Instead, you end with the conclusion that Risen is town. What? Also, the sloosh kill DOES have another explanation and it was already posted in the thread by someone else, blue-hunting. That's not a defense. That a useless post in which you bolded one part of his entire case. On April 24 2012 19:45 Ottoxlol wrote: You did not make a good enough case against Marv and you did not defend VE. So you were not that confident. Continuing his 1v1 fest after harping on the gonzaw/VE 1v1. Standard, but what sticks out here is that he's telling BJ he didn't make a strong enough case against marv and didn't defend VE. Yeah, his case on marv was too weak, but saying he didn't defend VE is a lie. On April 24 2012 20:37 Ottoxlol wrote: LOL I don't understand your case. You say the reason I'm scum because the way i voted VE. First I made a case about why VE is playing badly about the massvigclaim plan, then when he claimed, I stated my reasoning why he shouldn't have, and because you guys said he's the best player ever it's obvious that he is scum. I stated why a scum VE would claim and asked him why did he think the claim was good play. He did not respond, started accusing every second player and yelling, then rqd. I blame my vote on VE's bad play and lack of interest. You still did not respond why is this strong enough to switch from tunneling marv. Stating my posts are worthless, when you did not help town at all (not defending VE when you claim it was obv he's town, not stating a single good case that would rally ppl from VE), is the nail in your coffin. #vote BlazingJitsu Votes BJ after their OMGUS mud-flinging. The end result of this argument is BJ's modkill b/c he couldn't keep his cool when trying to argue with someone who was clearly being willfully absurd. On April 24 2012 21:48 Ottoxlol wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 21:29 Mementoss wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 10:38 Ottoxlol wrote: It seems like the ppl doesnt read the whole thread. My case against VE was simple. He told us never give up any information to the scum, then proceed to a bad claim that ensures his early death as a blue. This is bad play, hes the best player ever so he would not do that if he is indeed town JK. I tried to ask him about this decision tell me what did I miss or what was his idea what would happen, no answer. He ignored my 6 posts directed towards him, then after the votes started to pile up on him he tried defending himself, I told him what am i interested in, he talked about the massvigclaim after we already closed it and had nothing to do with his lynch. He did not read my posts, failed to comprehend them and when I asked him to explain his play he start writing in all caps, and ragequitting. Like a scum VE. The timing was strange too, the claim was around the time BM ninja voted. I did not vote on him because of his bad play, I voted him because he did not answer to my accusations or questions just gave up like a little girl. He says statements that have the potential to explain why it could have been scummy actions but he never explains why its scummy. Such as: "The timing was strange", wait what, how? Also, you did not vote on him based on bad play? Then why the fuck did you talk about it so much in all your posts directed to him? It musta had somewhat of a good influence on your voting towards him. My other posts explained why the timing was strange. If scum VE wants to claim he claims when he's pressured and an easy wagon appears. I said the bad play can mean 2 things, either he's town or a scum (wow that was surprising). If he would have answered why he thought it was good as townie or at least not give up I would have considered that he's not trying to escape the lynch with a fakeclaim, but he tried something that was not optimal. If you look at my filter you can see, I asked about him because before his claim I had only a little suspicion on him + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 23:27 Ottoxlol wrote: Scum VE failed at logic at the plan discussion phase, then proceeded to avoid answering to my questions 5 times in a row. Since he still did not explained why it is good for us that he claimed, I don't see how can this be anything but anti-town. Scum would claim this if they want to avoid a d1 lynch and a nice wagon appears that not too suspicious to jump on. Like the BM train. I wonder how many scums are on that. If i were a vig i would definitely shoot there. Well you dodged matthews question. So that makes you scum by your own logic? You say its anti-town, or bad town, you don't say its scummy, or why its scummy. Just its bad for town. You note that scum would do this to avoid a day 1 lynch, but wait, VE didn't do that, he had barely any pressure on him when he claimed, he had 3 votes to Marvs 6. So this is just wrong. Also you say that scum would want to jump on the BM wagon, well at the time BM wagon as you call it was barely even moving. I think it had 2-3 votes. What? I did not say why is it scummy? Reread. I was arguing if he's playing a bad townie play or a scummy scum play, this choice of words further proves my previous reply that I wanted him to respond, to explain his play.VE had 5 votes against marv's 6. This is also in one of my posts, this was why I argued he shouldnt have claimed because scum was very unlikely to night kill the second highest vote. He claimed right after BM voted for him -> ninja vote ez wagon. Basically your avoiding giving a detailed opinion on who is scum and why they are scum at all costs. You give handy suggestions like vigs shoot into BM voters. Or your little WIFOM earlier, but that is it. I don't, I had a case d1 about VE, I pushed it. It was a big fail. If I have a strong read I will post it. You really didn't have that much of a case on d1. What you did have was everyone else making points and you jumping onto those points pushing it as your case. You proceeded to hide behind your defense that VE was playing bad and therefor scum. On April 24 2012 22:21 Ottoxlol wrote: I believe that there is at least one scum on that list, I read them all. I couldn't come up with a case that's strong. Bm contributed zero, it is really hard to analyse someone with zero posts. Marvellosity been attacked d1 with a very weak case, I did not find anything suspicious there layabout he was on my d1 list because I felt his opinion switches were a bit suspicious but d2 he's been posting some very good things, i think he's town Sentinel wasn't too involved in the debates, the case against him is semi decent, but if we punish someone because he did not got involved it should be the one with the least contribution Zephridd's defense is that he was afk too. We have 3 players who did some afking Sent BM Zeph from the VE crowd, Sentinel and Zeph tried contributing so I would vote rather BM then those other 2. He's getting votes and called out why don't he post and he's still just lurking around. BM please get into the game and show us you are town, or else I feel you'll get lynched. WHAT?! You look at that entire list of people on VE and you can't come up with ANYONE? Earlier you had your Glenn Beck twisted logic post saying 0 or 2 people on your list were probably scum... or something. Now you're saying you can't find anyone, anyone out of the list of people who voted for VE scummy? BM was lurking all day 1, and you can't find that scummy? You find nothing suspicious about marv's play? I don't think marv is scum, and I can point out some suspicios things no problem. There is no one who is above suspicion until they flip green. Layabout goes from being a little scummy to you to not being scummy at all simply because he's "posting better"? Sentinel is scummy as sin! You even pointed out DAY ONE that you thought Sentinel could possibly be acting scummy. It hasn't gotten better for him in my eyes. How can you not make a case? Are you protecting a scumbuddy here? You pointed out that 0 or 2 people on VE might be scum. I'm leaning towards you knowing the number of scum on him. You can't make a case on Zeph? CMON. The guy's defense is that he was lurking! Ahem... I mean afk. You're saying Sentinel and Zeph are in the clear for you, but BM has to go? I will be the first one to hate on BM, but to say BM is your scum read but not zeph/sent is outrageous. BM start posting or you have feelings that he will be lynched. Where were you yesterday when I was shouting for his lynch. Now that sent/zeph are under suspicion, though, lynch the lurker. What remains after that post is one liner after one liner and then this. On April 25 2012 08:03 Ottoxlol wrote: Risen gonzaws case against him He tried to defend VE, but with not the best tools After that he starts to rally people to other candidates (marv/bm). He explained that he did FoS these people only because they had votes on them so it would have been easier to get ahead of VE. I think his reasoning is clear, I find him town. BM He doesnt post, ninja-votes. There is no real case against him because he doesn't post. I can't wrap my head around him, some say scummy, some say don't I can't really decide. If people want to lynch him I will have no objection at all. Sentinel He did not provide any reasoning on his vote for VE or get into the debate about it. A bit scummy. I would vote for him too Marv. From the beginning I felt like BJ is tunneling him too much, he answered his accusations but BJ couldn't understand them, I can relate to that. I am neutral towards him Zephirdd he defended himself with stating he afked, he's still not active enough, hard to judge. Daniel One real post, he votes BM but then promise us a case on marv and that he'll post, we are still waiting. Brood Two posts, he votes marv, I point out some inconsistency in his post but he did not respond. No posts, no case johnnywup I missed this case before, I think a couple of ppl too because no one really talked about this. I am feeling confident voting for johnny. ##Vote: johnnywup More buddying of me and a post containing your "feelings" culminating in a complete swap to voting johnny b/c he's being a little indecisive. Ottoxlol is scum and I will be voting for him. ##vote: Ottoxlol Here we are. Risen's first major case of the game. Risen's major case is against Ottoxlol, when Ottoxlol wasn't even a popular candidate yet. This is pretty important and noticeable. In the Risen & Ottoxlol are scum theory, Risen could easily have manufactured a case against a townie at this point. Risen brings up his case on more than one occasion to try to get people to read it. Ok, now I've pointed this out, is where it gets sketchy. We're at the vote-time. On April 26 2012 08:52 Risen wrote: Can anyone figure out the vote count? I'm panicking having my vote on the same target as BM This... now this is horrible. Just horrible. The fact is, there is almost always going to be scum ON BOTH SIDES of a lynch. Why oh why oh why would you be worried that someone you think might be scum is voting for your candidate? Ottoxlol is practically Risen's ONLY strong case the whole game. And he's letting this be thrown off because of who BM is voting for? Arrrrrghhh!!! Anyway. On April 26 2012 09:14 Risen wrote: If I was a townie I would vote me and I don't know anything that could change my mind.I'll do everything I can before I'm gone. Here he says he will do everything he can. On April 27 2012 09:08 Risen wrote: I've been wrapped up in eve since I've given up here, but I still think ottox is scum. I'm sorry I fucked up. Good luck, town. Why have you given up? You said you were going to do everything you can before you're gone. On April 28 2012 03:36 Risen wrote: I agree completely. Which is why ##vote MidnightGladius jk, back from classes. Gimme a while since I'm playing eve atm This is also fucking lame. If you're bloody town Risen, make a bloody effort to make up for your stupid, stupid screwup and play this game for town to win. I'm playing Eve is not valid. Summary: There seem to be two extremely conflicting points that I don't know how to resolve, because they point in opposite directions. 1) Risen making a case and pushing for an Ottoxlol lynch before it became fashionable 2) Risen being pushed off his, by far, strongest read on some BM nuttery. I'm absolutely torn. Risen has actually done spectacularly little scumhunting apart from Ottoxlol. This means it could have been a bus that backfired horribly as deadline approached. On the other hand, why even bring the heat on to Ottoxlol? It seems such an unnecessary play. Everyone's thoughts please. | ||
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On April 28 2012 08:38 Risen wrote: Whatever I'm voting ottoxlol. I gave up when I realized it came out that we lost a second blue. Who else is there to make a case on? I already screwed us by completely screwing up yesterday b/c I'm horrible. I read through people's filters and this game is so trashed what's the point? I'm going to vote for ottox, he's still my strongest scumread besides BM who everyone seems to be A OK with lurking like a boss then popping in for two seconds then popping back out. Same with freakin St Daniels I don't care that he was sick or whatever. Every game I'm in is ruined by lurkers. When ottox flips that means I'm lynched next. And then it's pretty much lylo according to gonzaw's earlier statement. I'm sorry, like I said earlier this is pretty much the second consecutive gamed I've ruined and I didn't even know I could ruin a game when I wasn't an alignment checker. ##vote: ottoxlol I'm voting BM tomorrow. You're only ruining it by not playing to win. | ||
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On April 28 2012 08:44 johnnywup wrote: Marv, I wouldn't call it an early strong case on ottox. The first time risen MENTIONS ottox it's on page 33, and it's one sentence. The next time is 29 pages later...which is when he makes his case, and says a lot, and then votes for him. The case risen makes against ottox is good the first time i read it. Re-reading it, it's a lot of empty text with a lot of "commentary" of what ottox is posting...not many actual points. The points he does make are mostly on small points. The big points he does make are good though, imo. But that's only like 10% of the actual post. I do find it odd it took him 33 pages to have a one sentence blurb, then on page 62 he makes a case on him. With no mention of ottox in between. NONE. I don't think you're thinking about it the right way. I thought his case was decent, and obviously actually had a fair amount of effort put in to it. By 'early' I meant that it was putting a shitload of pressure on Ottoxlol that wasn't there at that point. As in, he wasn't just wagonning with the case. | ||
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This is the point. This is what I want you to think about. | ||
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On April 28 2012 09:01 johnnywup wrote: yeah that wouldn't make sense if they're both scum. I think it's safe to assume they're opposite alignments (i'm ruling out the both townie part because I feel that ottox is scum, and I don't think they could both be scum because risen did put in a lot of pressure unnecessarily). Seeing as Risen changed his vote last minute, if he was scum, he wouldn't care which one was lynched since they're both town, I think that makes it safe to assume Ottox is scum, Risen is town. Thoughts? Alright, both townie is definitely possible though, but I understand that you think Ottoxlol is scum. The one scenario I would rule out is Ottoxlol town, Risen scum. No way would Risen have done what he did at vote time with this set of alignments. If Ottoxlol is scum... Risen could be either town or scum. I know my point was that he wouldn't have pressured Ottoxlol so heavily like that if they were scumbuddies... but after all, he did save him at the lynch. I just can't make sense of it. I suppose why that's why it makes sense to lynch one scum at a time. If Ottoxlol is genuinely everyone's strongest read, then we'll flip him and go from there. | ||
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On April 28 2012 09:08 PaqMan wrote: You're screwing us over by not helping. Get your shit together and contribute. There's got to be more people you think is scum besides ottox. Where's the cases you told us you'd post?! Giving up like the way you are is weak. If you think the game is "so trashed" than PLEASE request a replacement. If you want to prove your town then start giving us stuff to work with, not these "ohh pity me!" posts. Whatever, I already had a go at him. Why don't you join the discussion at hand instead of berating him like I already did? | ||
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On April 28 2012 09:20 PaqMan wrote: Because I think he's scum. If all he wants to do is complain about how bad he is then he should ask for a replacement. He's not helping town at all. And what discussion? The only thing you're doing is speculating. ^^is not discussion. I'll join the discussion when it starts benefiting town, not spamming the thread with uselessness. You're an idiot. I have specifically asked for feedback on the issue of Risen making a case on Ottoxlol when he very much didn't have to. Answer the question. I've asked it more than once, stop just quoting little bits to make a stupid point. | ||
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On April 28 2012 09:33 PaqMan wrote: You guys are repeating the same discussion that's already been talked about. How is that helping the rest of us out? I never said finding scum isn't a priority, that's exactly what I want y'all to do instead of "it doesnt make sense why he would voteswitch?!?!". Speculation might be discussion but it's useless and doesn't help us in finding scum, especially if it's already been discussed. Yes, I'm an idiot for pointing out how useless your herpderp conversation was. I thought it was a pretty good case and it was the only thing that gave him townie points from me. Yeah, because I see you doing some fricking stellar scumhunting right now instead. Oh no wait, you're not, you're just criticising and not doing anything consctructive. My bad. | ||
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On April 28 2012 11:22 Mattchew wrote: so martyring is pro-town? and janaan is scummy. There is nothing unusually scummy about his posts, but his style matches the only full game he ever played scum. Janaan Scum Meta - Click Me! vs. Janaan as town getting shot N1 - Click Me! No, he's made a couple of posts urging town to talk about things and not just tunnel. Imo mafia would not be encouraging town discussion this way. | ||
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On April 28 2012 20:27 Bill Murray wrote: I disagree with you about Risen + Ottox not being scum together, and so did Mementoss. Guess where he is? Oh, yeah, dead. Please don't tell me this is your only contribution for the day | ||
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Or are Risen/MG/anyone else still a possibility? It seems like we've not discussed MG at all today despite him being basically the dead layabout's strongest read for some time. Is everyone so sure ottoxlol is scum ahead of MG? | ||
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On April 29 2012 04:13 johnnywup wrote: PERSONALLY I'd like a MG lynch more but it doesn't look like it's going to happen :X Apologies if you've made a case and I've missed it. Could you link it me? Or if you haven't made it and you feel MG is a stronger lynch, could you make the case? At the moment I'm not very comfortable at all trying to push town into lynches, given my read was so far off with Zeph. I just have a nagging feeling Ottoxlol would be a mislynch. But I'm not confident in that :/ | ||
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On April 29 2012 04:28 johnnywup wrote: I haven't made a full on case (at least that I can remember), but I've posted things I found scummy about him here and there. My first vote today was immediately on MG, but when people started voting ottox I looked for reasons he could be scummy. I found some, so I voted him. I would like a MG lynch over ottox but no one was really expressing interest at all :\ A number of very good mafia players on this forum told me that when you're reading someone, you should look at it from BOTH the perspective that they are town and they are mafia. The problem for looking for scummy things is that almost everyone will post things that seem scummy at one point or another, so you will always be able to 'confirm' someone as scum if you try. I would love to read your case on MG if you think he is scummy. If not I'm going to have to do it myself, and given I pushed the fuck out of Zephirdd my confidence in possibly leading a lynch is low. | ||
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Much as in my Risen post, I'm going to post the major case against MidnightGladius by layabout, and slOosh's feelings too. I also made some points at some stage but I feel they are covered better by these 2 cases anyway. Anyway, here are slOosh's thoughts: + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 10:42 slOosh wrote: So here are MG's thoughts on the D1 main lynch candidates. He is only willing to vote johnny, and would be ok lynching VE (but letting everyone know he would be hesitant). So out of the 4 people, he says nope these guys aren't scummy I'd rather lynch johnny. Then we get this post. VE just flipped blue. He subtly blames people for the VE mislynch, when he himself put in no effort to get people off, and actually would have supported the VE lynch himself. So what does MG think we should do next? He invites everyone to look into the VE voter list, the guy he thought was the scummiest out of the four D1 lynch candidates. There are some serious logical jumps made here. Either the candidates were all town, in which the scum would have no incentive to push the votes onto VE, or at least one of the candidates are scum and scum piled onto VE to avoid getting lynched, in which case he should be looking into who is that scum candidate. However, he suggests that we all look into the VE mislynch voter list. Could scum be hiding there? Certainly. Is it logically reasonable to start looking there? No. People, read MG's filter and tell me your thoughts. I don't like how VE played but he found something off in MG. So have I. layabout's case contains the meat, but slOosh's comments reminded me of this comment: On April 23 2012 09:19 MidnightGladius wrote: In order of voting time. I wonder how many scum were on VE's lynch? Tomorrow, we're taking a long hard look at Zephirdd. Something doesn't sit right here. Seems speculative and leading at the same time. layabout's case: + Show Spoiler + On April 25 2012 06:09 layabout wrote: Bolded: things that show that MignightGladius thought that VE was scum, or supported lynching him Underlined:things that show that MignightGlagius did not actually think that VE was scum. MidnightGalsdius comes in at a time where players where voting for VE. He comes in a shows his support for a VE lynch. He also tells us doesn't know why VE would do what he is doing and that he doesn't think we should lynch him. Then he immediately labels VE and johnny scumbuddies and makes his case on Johnnywub. next post: It speaks for itself really, but please note that he thinks that there are multiple players that are better lynches than VE. This next post is 75 minutes before the deadline. Now he is willing to lynch VE despite Johnny+other being better candidates that he thinks could still be lynched. VE has not done anything new and no new evidence or reasoning has come to light since MG's other posts. He also calls him ridiculously scummy, and places the responsibility for his vote onto VE. He also claims thinks that is is not too late for us to change who we lynch. If he believes this and he wants to get us to change who to vote for, then he is going to need to be persuasive. Why then, does he also announce that he is totally fine with lynching the person that we are set to lynch? Nothing changes my mind more than somebody that tells me that they think i should vote for somebody else but also that they support my vote and are willing to change theirs to match mine. Then he shows up and berates "us" for letting "that"(VE lynch) happen even though he showed both subtle and open support for it. I think MidnightGladius is one scummy dude. He is a superior candidate to the existing candidates. ##vote MidnightGladius I am aware that gonzaw raised some of these points and that MG kinda addressed them here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14454129 . But that doesn't change the fact that his actions suggest that he is mafia. Or the fact (probably) that he is mafia I'm sure you're all aware of how weirdly MG acted around VE's lynch - calling him ridiculously scummy, and blaming town for letting us lynch him. It's in layabout's case though and he explains it better than I will here, so just take a read. There's one thing in particular I'd like to point out from layabout's case here, because it struck a massive chord with me. On April 25 2012 06:09 layabout wrote: This next post is 75 minutes before the deadline. Now he is willing to lynch VE despite Johnny+other being better candidates that he thinks could still be lynched. VE has not done anything new and no new evidence or reasoning has come to light since MG's other posts. He also calls him ridiculously scummy, and places the responsibility for his vote onto VE. He also claims thinks that is is not too late for us to change who we lynch. If he believes this and he wants to get us to change who to vote for, then he is going to need to be persuasive. Why then, does he also announce that he is totally fine with lynching the person that we are set to lynch? Nothing changes my mind more than somebody that tells me that they think i should vote for somebody else but also that they support my vote and are willing to change theirs to match mine. Then he shows up and berates "us" for letting "that"(VE lynch) happen even though he showed both subtle and open support for it. layabout writes very succinctly here, everything is persuasive and to the point. The bit in bold is what I really, really agree with though. It's practically the essence of scum play. On April 25 2012 08:33 layabout wrote: If you are going to act like that statement after VE's flip is the reason for my case and try to downplay it instead of explaining your scummy behaviour then it's clear to me that you cannot explain your scummy behaviour and you are trying to discredit my case instead. Goodnight. MG's response to layabout is basically 'lol I should've said something different about VE amirite?' which layabout articulates perfectly. Not good. Also to be noted are his extremely weird shenanigans with his voting on ghost over ghost expressing 2 lynch candidates and MG reading this as ghost claiming scum? Decidedly odd at any rate. Last of all, we have had nothing from MG of late. His last post: On April 27 2012 14:28 MidnightGladius wrote: I haven't been giving this game the attention I should, between cohosting, work, and term papers. I can see that my play this game was been really lacking, and I just haven't been feeling my reads. I've been hedging my posts, because I honestly haven't felt the same kind of conviction with my cases. That said, mislynching me will cost us the game. You're just going to have to trust me. The fact that a bunch of townies have been pushing for me is disheartening, but I'm sure that you will find scum trying to hammer me today. The irony here is that no-one has been pushing MG at all. "You're going to have to trust me" is also just pap. But we've had nothing from MG since this at all. It seems like he's seen the wagon on Ottoxlol and decided to just fly under the radar while Ottoxlol gets lynched apparently without opposition. Are people that much more convinced by Ottoxlol than MG? | ||
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MG - ghost - Ottoxlol marv - jdub - MG Matt - Ottoxlol Janaan - MG Risen - Ottoxlol BM - MG Broodking - BM Sentinel - Ottoxlol Ottoxlol - MG St. Daniel - Paqman - So in fact it's 4-4 in votes. MG, marv, St. Dan, Paqman to vote. Broodking with what is a dead vote at the moment. I thought Ottoxlol had a significant lead, but apparently not. To those on Ottoxlol - have you looked at my consolidated post on MG, are you sure Ottoxlol is scummier, and if so, why? | ||
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##Vote: MidnightGladius | ||
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St. Daniel getting mod-killed helps us out. Unfortunately he was my strongest scum read out of all the lurkers :/ I think MG would have been modkilled if he wasn't lynched anyway? Bring on night-time. Like I said St. Danny gives us at least a little bit of breathing room perhaps? But I still think we can win this. | ||
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On April 29 2012 09:19 PaqMan wrote: So that's why he stayed in this game but not the other! I'm disappointed in myself. Should have voted Ottox... Yes, do you remember when St. Daniel thanked iGrok for giving him another chance? Makes sense now. Also, while I was smoking, it dawned on me - St. Daniel flipped goon, thus halving their KP. | ||
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On April 29 2012 09:22 Bill Murray wrote: TL Mafia's rules are the best player in the town lol Sadly true. Gonna be pushing you now, BM. | ||
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On April 29 2012 09:26 Bill Murray wrote: Nah, you can afford to wait another day, now 3 scum left. You're in my group of 4. No more waiting. | ||
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On April 29 2012 16:41 Janaan wrote: Damn it. Really thought MG would flip red. We caught a break with Daniel not voting, though, that'll give us a little breathing room. I think it's pointless talking about what blues should do, whoever the last blue is, whatever role he is, I'm sure he has his own ideas of what he needs to be doing and we need to let him do that. I plan on taking this night phase to collect all my thoughts in my head. With one goon down, I think we're in an ok position now, we just need to keep going. The thing about this is that you have to remember, Daniel is a noob scum. He probably would air on the side of not mentioning his scumbuddy at all, and certainly wouldn't vote for him unless absolutely necessary. IF there's a scum in that list, there's no more than one in my opinion. It also makes BM look better to me that Daniel voted him when he could have easily sheeped the VE wagon. I disagree with this line of reasoning. Newb scum or not, scum still have their QT for more experienced players to give newbies direction. I'm uncomfortable with thinking that because St. Dan mentioned/voted BM at some stage that that makes BM more townie. That said, of his final 4 named, Sentinel is still the most likely scum imo. I'm also heartened to see people bringing up Risen/Sentinel again, I was afraid conversation was going to die a little. Anyway, more thoughts later. | ||
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On April 30 2012 00:52 Ottoxlol wrote: ghost soft defending StD He's attacking Sent because he's lurking, yet he did not even mention StD apart from that post. Paqman's attacking BM for lurking, mentions BK, doesnt mention StD apart from two very soft defenses. He mentions that we waste d3 discussion on stupid speculation, but doesnt contribute a thing. Janaan doesnt mention him at all, to be fair he's mentioning that we should not lynch lurker d2-3 because we have posts that we can work with (this was about BM's lynch so I don't think it is relevant). Every other ppl mentioned StD for lynch target or scumread, but no one pushed him other then BK. StD layed really low tho. ghost and Paqman are my reads based on their relations with StD, and their unwillingness to engage in the discussion in the thread. Janaan gives me a headache, he would be my greenest read, but StD voted two times the person he made a case on. Of course this is not conclusive, but he was noob scum, and with Janaan not mentioning him it is a bit suspicious. You need to give us more than this; relations with St. Dan are practically meaningless. If those 2 are your reads, please provide a filter-based evidence case against one or both of them so we can assess what you're saying. My read on those 2 so far has not been scum (nor for most people either I feel) so if that's what you think you're going to have to persuade people, not just state it. | ||
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My thoughts about scumteam atm are: Ottoxlol, Bill Murray, Sentinel/Risen. But the third is definitely not set in stone, if I was forced to choose I'd go Sentinel. As things went I pushed Zephirdd for lynch and it saved Ottoxlol, then my analysis and my gut said MG was scum while Ottoxlol was town. These reads haven't gone very well for me, and the weight of opinion on Ottoxlol seems overwhelming. As far as I'm concerned, Bill Murray pretty much claimed scum on the thread: On April 29 2012 09:26 Bill Murray wrote: Nah, you can afford to wait another day, now This is just taking the piss (see in spoilers also) and no-one really noticed, but wow. Practically a scum claim. I didn't like Sentinel's comments on what the remaining blue should be doing tonight. He still seems off to me. [b]Risen]/b] just made a post so I'm not so sure. There's cases against him, his voting madness, and giving up is just not good. | ||
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gg, gl town  | ||
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On May 05 2012 09:25 Mattchew wrote: lol... you have no idea what your talking about. Um, yes I do. your claim was terribad. | ||
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marvellosity
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On May 05 2012 09:29 Mementoss wrote: You guys should be fucking ashamed of yourselves for not believing VE's claim Seriously, that's fucking awful. Except this one had a shit-ton of context surrounding it. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 05 2012 09:29 Mattchew wrote: read the obsQT your thoughts are completely blinded by the fact that bluelightz told you guys that sent was JK when sent claimed. Also, if you can find 1 hole in my claim go ahead Plenty were found in the obsQT | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
lol no, context | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 05 2012 09:35 Mementoss wrote: I am slowly working my way to the worst mafia record on the TL Mafia forums You don't deserve a bad record <3 | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 05 2012 09:36 Mattchew wrote: everything can be explained with how I explained it. If i was actually vig and i had shot risen, and he didn't die, I wouldn't claim that immediately, because as gonzaw said Risen couldn't possibly be stupid enough to last minute switch as scum if ottox/zeph were both town. This means ottox/risen's alignment would have had to be the same, or Risen is stupid. If I am watching someone that could be goon and takes away the last scum KP get lynched, then why would I claim. I keep town on a need to know basis as town. You can argue that I shoulda/coulda/woulda shot earlier but thats just you putting your own thoughts into my head. you would never shoot n3 for a whole bunch of reasons sentinel would never have claimed when he did if he was mafia you would never as townie haev allowed ottoxlol lynch when you had 2 confirmed scum, no matter how much you thought he was scum Everything points to it being fake | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
you would've shot earlier if you really felt that about risen gonzaw already explained if i'm wrong on point 3 you're bad, strongest read is irrelevant when you have 100% confirmed scum | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
what don't we read? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I also retract my fucking awful post from earlier, it was unfair | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I think I come out well | ||
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