EPTNewbie Mini Mafia IX - Page 9
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Nova_Terra
Switzerland1190 Posts
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FourFace
701 Posts
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Lorant
Hungary112 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg){kind=icon} Ok .. whatever. Let's pretend that didn't happen. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Lorant
Hungary112 Posts
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Nova_Terra
Switzerland1190 Posts
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Lorant
Hungary112 Posts
If I can stay, everyone should ignore this incident and consider the first FourFace post to be attributed to me. Thank You. | ||
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Pure-SC2
United Kingdom1440 Posts
## Unvote The case against Nova_Terra: - Nova_Terra's overly emphasised townie position: The case begins prior to the game even starting. Nova (who has been scum in previous games - I'd recommend a review of Newbie Mini Mafia VII ) is quick to distance himself and reinforce his town stance prior to the game even starting: Im awful town, so i need to work at it during my last newbie game (aka this one) He's telling us he's awful town, and that he will be working on it during this game. He is trying to reinforce his town position before the game has even started. One the game starts, his first post includes this line: Okay, thank god, not mafia :D This immediately made me suspicious, as I don't understand why someone who had received a town role would need to state this. The only motive I can determine for stating this is scummy. Nova said the following in response to Daymor who questioned this: I said that because ive been mafia the past two games and i didnt feel like dealing with the stress this time around. Again you try to distance yourself from the fact you were mafia in previous games ("you didn't feel like dealing with the stress this time around") however you have no choice over that. You may or may not have been given a role as mafia or town. I find the wording you used here to be very strange and is not the response I would've expected to Daymor's question. - Nova_Terra's posting without contributing: On its own I wouldn't say this means anything, and it's something I posted about earlier. But in combination with a few other things it becomes more significant. When you do a review of Nova_Terra's early filter, essentially he repeats the same stance he has on fluff posting, complains about lack of activity and votes/unvotes a few times. This is done over 14 posts, and makes him look like the most active person in the thread, but if you actually looks at what is included in all those posts, he is actually contributing very little. I find this to be mildly suspicious and it felt like he was trying to position himself as a town leader without actually contributing. - Nova_Terra's baseless accusation of Solohan50: I must admit I didn't look into this when it was initially posted, and it was only after a complete filter review that I really began questioning Nova's behaviour here. Nova stated the following: Also I find Solohan50s first post to be scummy. Interesting. Ok, what else does Nova say about this? Also I'm going to let Solohan50 find out what i find scummy about his own post and do something about it. If a vanilla townie looks at someones post and finds it scummy, theoretically another vanilla townie should be able to do the same. Im not gonna tell you how to defend yourself. So if I read this correctly, Nova finds Solohan50s first post scummy, and that because he's a vanilla townie and finds it scummy, another vanilla townie should be able to do the same. Right. I'm a vanilla townie, so let's look at Solohan50's first post for the smoking gun. On April 15 2012 00:46 Solohan50 wrote: Yeah, lynching lurkers isn't a terrible idea (it's not spectacular either though), especially if you make it known ahead of time. That (should) inspire everyone to post at least a little bit, giving us more information on Day 1 and hopefully leading to better lynches. With any luck though, everyone will be active and we can avoid having to lynch a lurker. If the lurker that gets lynched Day 1 is Town, then we gain almost no information, because they haven't posted anything. tl:dr Post, people! My read on Solohan50's first post. He has stated his thoughts on lurker lynching (not a terrible idea, but doesn't really love it either). He likes the fact you can use it to put pressure on people to post day 1, which will hopefully lead to a better (which I read as more informed) lynch. He then goes on to say lynching a townie that hasn't posted anything provides almost no information. Ok, so that's my read on his post. I've gone through it several times and don't feel like I'm missing anything here. It seems like a positive townie approach to me for a first post. What is it that Nova sees that I don't? What is his motivation for calling Solohan50 out based on this? I don't see a townie motivation for this, further increasing my suspicion. Nova also said the following: EBWOP: Same with His second post which pretty much is in the middle of the discussion and just asks a question instead od adding to said discussion Solohan50's second post asked a question on No Lynches. He also asked this question pre-game so doesn't look like it's something he decided on bringing up after he received his role PM. There has obviously been some confusion around no lynch since this game started (I felt like the rules were clear but I guess since it wasn't explicitly stated it has caused confusion), and based on that (and the subsequent discussions and clarification) I don't think his question is suspicious. *** I will add in relation to this that Solohan50 hasn't contributed a lot since, but in terms of this case against Nova_Terra it doesn't apply, as I'm referring to Nova's on Solohan50's first posts. Solohan50's lurky behaviour should be looked at seperately. Continuing on.... - Nova_Terra's very defensive responses to oneplus: This has happened since I did my filter review, and I haven't had a chance to go through this in as much detail as I'd like, but I have work to be done. I may re-visit this later if I see anything more after a further review. Nova claims an OMGUS reaction reaction to oneplus, which I don't really see. Oneplus has his suspicions of Nova based on his own read, and it would be good for him to elaborate more on this. However the point I focused on was the way Nova reacted. The defensive tone of his responses definitely do not sound like town, and the only motivation I can see for him posting that way is scummy. - Nova_Terra's possible accomplices: Based on my filter review, the two most likely accomplices to Nova_Terra: Lazermonkey and Crossfire99. The case against these two isn't strong, but I would recommend reading through their filter and looking at the way they support Nova on Solohan50. Also, if you look at the interaction between Nova and Lazer against oneplus, it is also very defensive and nature and shows them supporting each other once again. I think this adds to my suspicion of Lazer who, other than his blind support of Nova's stance against Solohan, has seemed like a good contributing townie. - Final thoughts on Nova_Terra: After going through all this, and reviewing Nova's filter looking at him posting as a townie, and posting as scum, the only motivation I can see for his approach thus far (on areas where he has contributed) is scum. This makes me as confident as I can be that he is a good target to vote on for day 1. ## Vote: Nova_Terra Final thoughts on oneplus - I agree on him being a bad townie, and he has certainly been targeted by Nova_Terra, which seems to be a good motivation for scum to target him and in a sense, further backs up my suspicions on Nova. So what do you all think? If you don't agree, where do you think my reasoning is wrong? How do you read Nova_Terra based on your own review of his behaviour and filter? | ||
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Pure-SC2
United Kingdom1440 Posts
The fact that he continues in the same way once the game has started is why I pointed this out (and not that I think he knew prior to the game starting that he was going to roll mafia). | ||
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Pure-SC2
United Kingdom1440 Posts
Minimal contributors at this stage, and they are either absent, or heavily lurking: Solohan Macheji TheRavensName If you don't see any merit in my case against Nova_Terra (and by association, Lazermonkey and Crossfire99 - and please explain why, and what you think of my reads), then voting on one of the above is as good an alternative for a day 1 lynch vote in my opinion. | ||
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Daymor
New Zealand151 Posts
I think your case against Nova makes sense. I too got an early initial impression that he was a bit weird. What really stuck with me is obviously the same thing I pointed out in my earlier post, his statement of; Okay, thank god, not mafia :D I didn't actually read through the first couple of pages prior to the game starting so I missed the phrase you quoted about him being terrible town, as I signed up on Page 3. I do like the fact that he tried to pressure vote some people into contributing, but that in itself is not a town nor mafia tell. Gathering more contributions at such an early stage of the game just simply helps set the game up and could be done by either side. The content in his initial posts where laden with a decent amount of fluff. In regards to your reads on Crossfire99 and Lazermonkey I also have them trending towards Mafia on my notes, but at this stage those notes are far from conclusive. Of the two I think Lazermonkey raises more red flags. I will briefly summarise what I have noticed from him so far; Opinions on Lazermonkey's Play In his initial post his very first statement reads; On April 14 2012 23:38 Lazermonkey wrote: Sup everyone! So I'm kinda noob at this atm (...) So before contributing or anything else he immediately establishes the fact he is a 'noob'. Being that this is a Newbie Mafia game this would seem like a fairly easy assumption to make and apply to all the players. So why is there the need to state this? I don't think this is really relevant to mention as a townie, and would be mentioned more by someone who is trying to set up a way out or an excuse for any decisions or actions made during the game. Which to me is something a mafia would want to do more so than a townie. His next several posts all include quotes and statements from Nova_Terra, while this could possibly be due to his activity and the sheer volume of Nova's posts. On all three counts he simply agrees with the posts and adds a little fluff here and there to round out the posts, like encouraging people to post stating the current game situation etc. + Show Spoiler + On April 15 2012 01:00 Lazermonkey wrote: True, tho I added that I'd rather lynch someone in order to archive information than just some random lurker. And besides there really isn't much to discuss yet. On April 15 2012 15:31 Lazermonkey wrote: Morning EU-budds! People really need to start posting now, it's been almost 24 h since the day post came up, and we still only got ~2 pages of posts during that time. I think it's a decent idea to start pressuring era now, however if he doesn't show up at all I guess he will be replaced anyway. Therefore we don't need to care to much about it as of now. On April 15 2012 17:12 Lazermonkey wrote: I agree with you(Nova) on Solohan, but I think it will be hard de determ whether that is due to him being town and expressing himself the right way or if he is actuall scum. I also think that it is time for Macheji to step up a bit more. He has posted 4 posts so far, but all of them have been very short and havn't added anything useful yet. He states he is suspicious of Solohan50, who at the moment is lurking. But his early opinions seem to just line up quite nicely with Nova without really adding anything else of his own. Nova clearly states he finds the first two posts of Solohan50's scummy, I have tried to find these tells myself to no avail so far. So maybe Lazermonkey has picked up on these as well? Or is simply agreeing with Nova who appears to be the 'town leader'. Conclusion Lazermonkey's activity has been good and he has contributed a decent amount and I get the impression that it is a bit more substance than fluff at the moment. The issues I have raised are only what have stood out for me. Clearly this is not lynch worthy and i would not push a lynch with this level of substance to a case. But I am more trying to see if anyone else shares my concerns or what their thoughts on the matter are. | ||
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Lorant
Hungary112 Posts
OMGUS reaction reaction to oneplus ..noted, yes that was bad. It pains me to say this but Nova has outlasted his use to town already. He did good with the voting (although that was symbolic, not sure if it had any palpable effect) and he has shown us an anti-example of how a leader should not act. I doubt we can expect him to make substance-packed, easy to follow cases but I would love to be positively surprised. As for oneplus, I felt like I should take him under my wing because English is evidently not his mother tongue. Nevertheless I expect him to try and make it easy for us to understand him, keep it simple. What I understood about his posts struck me as intelligent and insightful + Show Spoiler + On April 16 2012 18:34 oneplus wrote: I am not the one who say this. You are the one who said you and lazer accused me? I said you guys sound like a team. And yeah now you are protecting lazer. In what earth the most active player couldn't be scum? Well I could be wrong if you are town and the scum will be lurking around and clapping his hand to see 2 of us try to attack each others He also provoked Nova into a passive OMGUS reaction, which he also noted right away, so that's the last of him being labeled as noob town. Regarding Nova insisting on his ratio of being in the mafia faction as an attempt to look town, and your EBWOP post + Show Spoiler + On April 16 2012 20:16 Pure-SC2 wrote: EBWOP: I missed off why I thought this was relevant, but the first point I made above regarding Nova_Terra's posts prior to the game start seem to be positioned so that he can use it later to emphasis his townie position regardless of whether he rolls town or mafia in the game. The fact that he continues in the same way once the game has started is why I pointed this out (and not that I think he knew prior to the game starting that he was going to roll mafia). Regarding your scum constellation + Show Spoiler + - Nova_Terra's possible accomplices: Based on my filter review, the two most likely accomplices to Nova_Terra: Lazermonkey and Crossfire99. The case against these two isn't strong, but I would recommend reading through their filter and looking at the way they support Nova on Solohan50. Also, if you look at the interaction between Nova and Lazer against oneplus, it is also very defensive and nature and shows them supporting each other once again. I think this adds to my suspicion of Lazer who, other than his blind support of Nova's stance against Solohan, has seemed like a good contributing townie. I can't imagine the scumteam would be that obvious to spot, showing the same stance. I do have a couple of notes in my journal on Lazer though, which I'd like to divulge at this point, seeing that Daymor has commenced discussion on him. Excerpt from April 15 2012 11:00am CET - 12:00 CET entry. ------------------------- (...) I don't like Lazermonkey for posting like that at all (lack of argumentation, just says solohan might be scum or not and that we shall see. He's Swedish, also non-english, but I will not let this type of posting be the routine. 3 people voting to pressure someone to post something might be a little exaggerated but It also shows that BlueyD, Pure-SC2, Nova_Terra aren't likely to be THE scumteam. BlueyD gives a meta reason and the others sheep, will have to watch how far this statement goes when they either retract their vote or choose to stay on him. What's with the 24 hours wining .. it hasn't been 24 hours. The game started faster than expected so there's plenty of time The Day ends in approximatly 57.5 hours. (...) ------------------------- End of excerpt Excerpt from April 16 2012 April 16 23:20 - 0:10 ------------------------ (...) Lazermonkey is acting weird. What is this? If you truly are a townie you shouldn't be interested in defending yourself more than absolutly necesary. Sounds like he is uncomfortable defending himself once a FoS is on him. Will be interesting to see if he builds this affirmation. Also will he be more tolerant towards others or is this a double standard.staying to defensive will make you look scummy. so he likes boxing people in, this is still a lurker post.(...) Now he's acting even weirder considering the context of the pressure on solohan. + Show Spoiler + There is also a slight chance that the person who obtains votes will be a mafia, in which case some of his scum-bros might have to show their true colour in one or another way LOL + Show Spoiler + It would usually be a good idea for the scum to keep their votes as long as possible. + Show Spoiler + @Solohan - I'm not sure wether He is just noob or scum. Obviously we are all very new to the game so that could be an explanation for his play. But he hasn't contributed at all yet, only talking about the very hypothetical no lynch and agreeing with that lynching a lurker. Both thoose subjects had already been said at that point, more than once even. This is obviously a very suspicious move. We really need to see his response. It's about 17h to lynchtime No it's not. + Show Spoiler + On April 14 2012 22:33 risk.nuke wrote: The Day ends in approximatly 57.5 hours. On April 16 2012 05:11 Lazermonkey wrote: It's about 17h to lynchtime, unless I'm misstaken Probably scum probing for towns vigilance. (...) ------------------------ End of excerpt PS: It is natural to consider someone who posts a lot to be your leader. I have a general advice to all the players, don't do that. Being able to juggle with ideas in multiplayer is a more valid qualification than writing everything you can think of right away in order to satisfy your itchy fingers. + Show Spoiler + If you feel like the latter kind of person you should leave this thread neat and go typerace instead. typeracer | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
Up untill this point I was quite sure that Nova wasn't scum, but now I'm starting to question it. An aspect that I think that you havn't brought up is his early game. The one thing that reallty is Pro-town about him is that he really tried his best to get the discussion going. He did some pressures and tried to get the lurkers to speak. He also was very clear about that he didn't like any fluff, although it is true he have been posting lots of posts that havn't really addded anything at all. This could be explained by the fact that we all pretty much agreed upon that lynching lurkers would be possible on day 1 and that he tried to get immune to lynches the very first day be being active. So with that in mind I think that his early game plans isn't very telling. It could've been done outof both perspectives. I'm writing as I am thinking, which is why the text above at first looks very fluffy ^^. Still think it is nice to know. As for Solohan50, The one thing I thought was that the 2 very short posts he actually made were basically echoing what everybody had said a dozen times before him. For me, this looked like a nice way to put some pressure at him and make him contribute and post some more material, rather than actually saying that he was 100% scum. As for Nova intention tho, I have no idea. The only thing that is problematic with your post is how late it is. I know this could be because of a thousand reasons but it does in fact make a difference. To me, most of thoose reasons could be broke down into; 1)You are a townie/blue and just havn't had the time to post. 2)You are scum and want to protect your scum-bro macheji, who I think got the most votes atm(although that seems quite unlikely to me as you set him up on your list of lurkers of people that you are fine with lynching). 3)You are scum, macheji is a townie/blue but you would rather kill Nova as you see him as a bigger threat. I think 1 is the most likely, but all should be considered. Atm I think the most interesting lynch would in fact be Nova. Not because he is confirmed scum in any way, but because of the possible information we could be given. If he flips town, we really need to think about Pure intention with his post. ## Unvote ## Vote Nova_Terra | ||
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Daymor
New Zealand151 Posts
@ Pure-SC2 I probably should have included this in my last post also. But another post from Nova that is bugging me is; On April 16 2012 02:11 Nova_Terra wrote: What now? Why would i not swap off of a pressure vote when the idea was to get that person to post? are you trying to tell me i should do exactly what i did as scum last game and be like, MEH, He posted, but i want to lynch him anyway? That hardly makes sense. Also, Lynching a lurker provides benefits like being able to see who voted when, peoples stances, and more importantly it sets an expectation that people who lurk will die. as an incentive to post. There isnt positive reinforcement on this game. If you lurk, you die. if you're active, you still might die, but at least you'll be helpful to the town first. First of all I have no idea as to who this post was aimed at, maybe Therapist? But to me this post gives me a bad vibe. It seems like quite an aggressive defense (in particular the first two lines), and the tone seems that of exasperation or aggression. I don't think you mentioned the post in your case, but what kind of impression does that post leave you with? | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
And I never really made any huge claims on solohan, was just saying that he looked kinda scummy the way he lurked and added nothing at all. | ||
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Lorant
Hungary112 Posts
On April 16 2012 21:28 Lazermonkey wrote: And I never really made any huge claims on solohan, was just saying that he looked kinda scummy the way he lurked and added nothing at all. That is exactly the kind of behavior that we wish to condemn. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
On April 16 2012 21:30 Lorant wrote: That is exactly the kind of behavior that we wish to condemn. What kind of behavior? the way he lurks or the way I think it's suspicous he lurks? | ||
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Lorant
Hungary112 Posts
On April 16 2012 21:31 Lazermonkey wrote: What kind of behavior? the way he lurks or the way I think it's suspicous he lurks? You should only speak out against someone if you have gathered enough evidence to help town make an opinion about him. The fact that he lurked, repeated only what has been said is not enough to say he's scummy, and will not make a valid point in a supposed case against him. We are now checking to see if Nova and Crossfire have made the same mistake or if they truly have something worth mentioning. | ||
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Daymor
New Zealand151 Posts
We clearly have a large contingent of lurkers at the moment, but I feel comfortable enough lynching Nova as I think between Pure-SC2's case and my personal impressions I would be happy with the result. ##Unvote: Macheji ##Vote: Nova_Terra Anyway 12:45am here, time for me to go to bed. Boss is out of the office for the week so should have the thread open for a decent portion of the day. Will check in on the thread every now and again. | ||
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Nova_Terra
Switzerland1190 Posts
On April 16 2012 19:58 Pure-SC2 wrote: Well well. There has been quite some activity since I started doing a complete filter review. It's interesting because it has reinforced the conclusions I came to on my own. ## Unvote The case against Nova_Terra: - Nova_Terra's overly emphasised townie position: The case begins prior to the game even starting. Nova (who has been scum in previous games - I'd recommend a review of Newbie Mini Mafia VII ) is quick to distance himself and reinforce his town stance prior to the game even starting: He's telling us he's awful town, and that he will be working on it during this game. He is trying to reinforce his town position before the game has even started. One the game starts, his first post includes this line: This immediately made me suspicious, as I don't understand why someone who had received a town role would need to state this. The only motive I can determine for stating this is scummy. Nova said the following in response to Daymor who questioned this: Again you try to distance yourself from the fact you were mafia in previous games ("you didn't feel like dealing with the stress this time around") however you have no choice over that. You may or may not have been given a role as mafia or town. I find the wording you used here to be very strange and is not the response I would've expected to Daymor's question. - Nova_Terra's posting without contributing: On its own I wouldn't say this means anything, and it's something I posted about earlier. But in combination with a few other things it becomes more significant. When you do a review of Nova_Terra's early filter, essentially he repeats the same stance he has on fluff posting, complains about lack of activity and votes/unvotes a few times. This is done over 14 posts, and makes him look like the most active person in the thread, but if you actually looks at what is included in all those posts, he is actually contributing very little. I find this to be mildly suspicious and it felt like he was trying to position himself as a town leader without actually contributing. - Nova_Terra's baseless accusation of Solohan50: I must admit I didn't look into this when it was initially posted, and it was only after a complete filter review that I really began questioning Nova's behaviour here. Nova stated the following: Interesting. Ok, what else does Nova say about this? So if I read this correctly, Nova finds Solohan50s first post scummy, and that because he's a vanilla townie and finds it scummy, another vanilla townie should be able to do the same. Right. I'm a vanilla townie, so let's look at Solohan50's first post for the smoking gun. My read on Solohan50's first post. He has stated his thoughts on lurker lynching (not a terrible idea, but doesn't really love it either). He likes the fact you can use it to put pressure on people to post day 1, which will hopefully lead to a better (which I read as more informed) lynch. He then goes on to say lynching a townie that hasn't posted anything provides almost no information. Ok, so that's my read on his post. I've gone through it several times and don't feel like I'm missing anything here. It seems like a positive townie approach to me for a first post. What is it that Nova sees that I don't? What is his motivation for calling Solohan50 out based on this? I don't see a townie motivation for this, further increasing my suspicion. Nova also said the following: Solohan50's second post asked a question on No Lynches. He also asked this question pre-game so doesn't look like it's something he decided on bringing up after he received his role PM. There has obviously been some confusion around no lynch since this game started (I felt like the rules were clear but I guess since it wasn't explicitly stated it has caused confusion), and based on that (and the subsequent discussions and clarification) I don't think his question is suspicious. *** I will add in relation to this that Solohan50 hasn't contributed a lot since, but in terms of this case against Nova_Terra it doesn't apply, as I'm referring to Nova's on Solohan50's first posts. Solohan50's lurky behaviour should be looked at seperately. Continuing on.... - Nova_Terra's very defensive responses to oneplus: This has happened since I did my filter review, and I haven't had a chance to go through this in as much detail as I'd like, but I have work to be done. I may re-visit this later if I see anything more after a further review. Nova claims an OMGUS reaction reaction to oneplus, which I don't really see. Oneplus has his suspicions of Nova based on his own read, and it would be good for him to elaborate more on this. However the point I focused on was the way Nova reacted. The defensive tone of his responses definitely do not sound like town, and the only motivation I can see for him posting that way is scummy. - Nova_Terra's possible accomplices: Based on my filter review, the two most likely accomplices to Nova_Terra: Lazermonkey and Crossfire99. The case against these two isn't strong, but I would recommend reading through their filter and looking at the way they support Nova on Solohan50. Also, if you look at the interaction between Nova and Lazer against oneplus, it is also very defensive and nature and shows them supporting each other once again. I think this adds to my suspicion of Lazer who, other than his blind support of Nova's stance against Solohan, has seemed like a good contributing townie. - Final thoughts on Nova_Terra: After going through all this, and reviewing Nova's filter looking at him posting as a townie, and posting as scum, the only motivation I can see for his approach thus far (on areas where he has contributed) is scum. This makes me as confident as I can be that he is a good target to vote on for day 1. ## Vote: Nova_Terra Final thoughts on oneplus - I agree on him being a bad townie, and he has certainly been targeted by Nova_Terra, which seems to be a good motivation for scum to target him and in a sense, further backs up my suspicions on Nova. So what do you all think? If you don't agree, where do you think my reasoning is wrong? How do you read Nova_Terra based on your own review of his behaviour and filter? Ok so First point regarding Daymors thingy Well of course i'll distance myself from being mafia last two times, as i am town this time. The fact that i dont want to be mafia doesnt have anything to do with what role i would get, well of course. The fact that i am happy about not being mafia doesnt have much to do with being scum. it says nothing actually. I dont see why the fact that you would have thought different wording would be used makes me more scummy. Also how can you say anything about before the game in your case.... Thats just illogical. Second, I have never claimed to be a town leader this game nor will I. If you choose to look at me as such and setting your cases on the fact that i'm trying to be a town leader, thats your decision. I am one of the most active people in the game, even though i havent contributed excessively, but i have contributed way more than many people in this game. It is completely valid to wait to see what he thinks about his first post instead of just telling him whats bad about it so he can say Oh, sorry, wont do it again. I still want to see his thoughts before explaining my position on him. My point about the second post is that he was here, and instead of adding to the discussion he just asks a question (that he had already asked in beginning). Oneplus posted no real reason to suspect me that was good. Also, this was certainly OMGUS as he accuses two people who had noted that some of the play he had made was scummy as opposed to just lurking. Its "defensive" because his basis for the case is terrible. Also, sick connection case. Nothing quite like suspecting people because they share a similar view in early game. Well in that case why arent all of the people who agree that no-lynch is beneficial (even though we cant now) because they're all mafia? Also, When did this go from lynching Lurkers to voting for people who actually contribute and provoke discussion? because you cant disagree that voting for someone who is creating discussion is a terrible idea with the state of the current town. | ||
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Nova_Terra
Switzerland1190 Posts
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