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Okay let's just take a look at the other possible outcomes of a lynch besides Dittert (lynching him wouldn't give town nearly as much information.
1. Lynch willz: Flips red, gives town cred to Acrofales, makes Xatalos look bad, makes Yomi look bad.
Flips green makes Yomi look suspicious (until he responds to as why he thinks I'm town), makes Xatalos look better (for trying to save me)
2. Lynch Yomi: Flips red, makes Willz looks bad for defending him, makes Xatalos look good for tunneling him, ArcticFox was originally against Yomi from the beginning according to his filter, something to keep in note as Arctic flipped town.
Flips green, makes Willz look suspicious in how he knew Yomi was green, makes Xatalos look bad for tunneling a townie in the end.
3. Lynch Xatalos: Flips red, makes Willz/Yomi look better since he was willing to lynch either of us D1. Gives towncred to HiroPro for bringing up the case against him? ArcticFox also argued against him during the night, might have thought he was Mafia because of the constant blue talk but didn't get to make his case since he was killed off.
Flips green, makes Willz/Yomi look bad, makes HiroPro look suspicious for bringing a case against him.
This is in my opinion a decent summary of likely attitudes and results from the three other options besides Dittert. I really want to not leave Dittert as the vote target today unless we really have no alternative, so please comment on this.
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@KB, I disagree that I "warred" with Yomi. If look through my filter, I consistently said that I thought he was also newb town and that he was tunneling Dittert for the same reason Dittert was tunneling me.
Xatalos also made a point in that Yomi continually referred to me as town without explaining why exactly that opinion was made, and Yomi was one of the few who didn't believe in the Acrofales case when most other people did (it was a good case, regardless of if I flip mafia/town)
You're also forgetting a pair in there as far as I can see, the interactions between myself and Xatalos.
If we're both mafia, Xatalos has a valid reason for trying to sway the vote from me towards Yomi in order to save his teammate. I know for myself that I am town, but I cannot prove it, so we should use this lynch to see what the real relationship is (if one of is us scum)
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
[QUOTE]On April 16 2012 02:09 KharadBanar wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 16 2012 01:42 Acrofales wrote:
Dittert/willz is a really really unlikely bus pair like I described above.
Dittert/yomi is only slightly more likely, because I feel like they're pretty new players even if they're scum and I don't think really new players would have the balls to bus that hard.
yomi/willz is still an unlikely bus, seeing as each of them voted for each other to save himself, but it's at least thinkable for me.
yomi/Xatalos is a pair which I wouldn't describe as that unlikely, because if Xatalos is scum, the easy way for him to get some credibility is to accuse his really scummily behaving team member. I have the feeling a scum bus could naturally evolve from that.[/QUOTE]
I agree with the analysis of these pairings. the yomi/Xatalos makes the most sense if we assume Xatalos busses yomi seeing his scummy like play day 1.
However I think the most obvious pairing to me is Dittert/Xatalos. When yomi posted his case against Dittert, Xatalos stepped in to defend him. Yomi's case wasn't the best so it was fairly easy for Xatalos to defend Dittert without being too suspicious. Night 1 all his blue talk makes me think he seems scummy but that has been talked to already. He also keeps tunnelling on yomi who is still looking very weak and it strikes me this could be an easy mis-lynch to go for. However at the start of Day 2 everyone votes for Dittert and Xatalos starts seeing his team-mate is probably going to get lynched and slowly comes off tunnelling yomi, while explaining he is broadening his scum hunting. Finally he joins what seems like an inevitable bandwaggon on Dittert allowing him to get some cheap town cred when Dittert flips.
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On April 16 2012 01:58 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 01:16 willz22912 wrote:On April 15 2012 10:20 imallinson wrote:On April 15 2012 08:29 willz22912 wrote:
I really have no idea what the hell Dittert is doing. Should we really ditch all D2 discussion and let this vote go through? If he's going to be modkilled/replaced we may as well look at someone else or at least save him from another day. If we mis-lynch him today and Mafia kill another town again N2 we're at 5-3 D3, going to be hard to win at that point. We definitely shouldn't ditch the discussion and if a better candidate comes up we should lynch them. However, I for one am not going to let someone martyr themselves as an easy out. Can you explain the underlined part here a little better? Are you saying you will or will not let Dittert martyr himself? I have no idea what Dittert's plan is for doing this as town considering if we mis-lynch again and lose another town during the night it's going to be 5-3 D3, which is pretty much mylo for town. My thoughts are basically that Dittert is my #1 scum read at the moment, yomi is #2 and you and Xatalos are tied for #3 at this point. If someone makes a case that replaces Dittert as my #1 of course I will change my vote. What I mean my not letting him martyr himself as an easy way out is that his martyring hasn't dropped my suspicion of him at all. If he had done what you had done and actually posted stuff that was useful to the town I would be more inclined to think he was town. The fact he basically said I'm off you guys are on your own and even suggested bringing the day 2 deadline forward makes me think he wants as little discussion going on as possible which seems exceptionally scummy to me. I honestly think he is scum who knows he is dead and is allowing his team to bus him to stop town getting any useful disscusion going day 2.
This is the other explanation for his post. I find it really hard to get a read on Dittert's two posts since the D1 lynch. It's the main reason I didn't take my vote off him. Well, I expect him to post something useful at 8pm EDT.
@KB: I kinda dislike connection play as it invariably introduces wifom. I prefer straight-up behavioural analysis, but seeing as I'm stuck, I am willing to give it a try.
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Since a few people are around and active, if we are operating under the assumption that Xatalos and Dittert are both scum, shouldn't we lynch Xatalos first because he was by far more active than Dittert? This would also provide town with more information as to his interactions with other players, far more so than if we lynch Dittert.
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On April 16 2012 02:24 willz22912 wrote:
@KB, I disagree that I "warred" with Yomi. If look through my filter, I consistently said that I thought he was also newb town and that he was tunneling Dittert for the same reason Dittert was tunneling me.
Oh sorry. I didn't research that as much as I probably should have, my head is still bursting from the filter analyses earlier, and my memory of Xatalos saying you flipping town would paint yomi more scummy (he did once) came together in my head in the wrong way.
So, this just made you being scum together with yomi a bit more likely (you still voted for one another but still). Do you have something to say to that? 
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I'm not going to really defend myself from your opinion, considering I really can't in the first place. Yomi and I voting each other to save ourselves doesn't prove alignment unless one of us actually flips, there are reasonable explanations for us doing that as either both town, 1 mafia/1town, or both mafia. Think whatever you want.
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On April 16 2012 02:31 willz22912 wrote:
Since a few people are around and active, if we are operating under the assumption that Xatalos and Dittert are both scum, shouldn't we lynch Xatalos first because he was by far more active than Dittert? This would also provide town with more information as to his interactions with other players, far more so than if we lynch Dittert.
You back to soft-defending Dittert? From most people I would accept this argument, but I am not sold on the willz-dittert case being so unlikely.
While I don't really want to dredge up GoT again, there is an enlightening example where Gumshoe and I went at eachother like nuts. Noob mafia is just as unpredictable as noob town and "light pressure" can be misread as "bussing", causing the other to counterbus.
However, the willz-dittert connection is far more interesting than that. Dittert is posting a case on willz. Willz does not OMGUS him, but instead protects him. Either because he is convinced Dittert is really town, or because he doesn't want Dittert's case a. getting too much attention or b. drawing attention to Dittert.
Now you're defending Dittert again, but this time for not giving as much information. Once again there's a town explanation, but it is suspicious that it comes from willz.
I for one am far from dropping the willz-dittert connection.
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A bunch of people have asked me this so I'm going to put it here.
Mafia KP can be roleblocked
A vig shot is refunded if it targets the same person as the mafia
Protection powers may not protect themselves.
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On April 16 2012 02:41 willz22912 wrote:
I'm not going to really defend myself from your opinion, considering I really can't in the first place. Yomi and I voting each other to save ourselves doesn't prove alignment unless one of us actually flips, there are reasonable explanations for us doing that as either both town, 1 mafia/1town, or both mafia. Think whatever you want.
This wasn't meant as a hard accusation. It was rather a continuation of the argument I made one post earlier, and I mentioned that for completeness. It's my read going from ~null to scum-ish, not from scum-ish to a "lynch please".
My comfortableness with lynches is now as follows:
1. Dittert
2. Xatalos
3. yomi
4. willz
I will still accept everyone's arguments to convince me why his specific lynch choice would be a better one, as long as I find them valid.
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@ Acrofales You're the one who made the case against me stick, not Dittert, and a lot of that was due to me OMGUSing Dittert during the night. If I kept my mouth shut against Dittert and not let him get to me, what would your case consist of?
You say you dislike connection play because it induces WIFOM, but can you really explain the motivations between myself and Dittert without it?
I'm not "soft defending Dittert" I really have no clue as to what the hell his motivations are for playing this game and posting the way he has. I am making the argument that lynching Dittert now wouldn't really give us as much information compared to lynching someone else (see the post I made with my list of outcomes)
Would you not agree that lynching someone who clammed up isn't as helpful as someone who tried to push cases on a lot of people without weight?
Here, just so my opinion is clear: ##Vote: Xatalos
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I cannot explain the motivations between you and dittert without wifom, which is exactly the reason I hate connection play.
My case D1 was behavioural analysis of you. I didn't make connections. I never said anything remotely like "if Dittert is scum then Willz is also scum" or anything like it. I may have brought up possible motivations for your play, but I believe I have always been fair in pointing out possible townie motives for doing the same thing.
Some further corrections: you didn't OMGUS Dittert, you OMGUS'd brood. You protected Dittert all day saying he was noob town and should shut up.
You are soft defending Dittert: you are making a case that he shouldn't be lynched. It's a soft defense because it's not really saying he's not scum, but because his lynch would not be useful. I disagree. Lynching scum is always useful. So far he's still my strongest scum read.
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Hello everyone,
I apologise for not having posted yet, Grey persuaded me to join the game late last night and Mafia is something completely new to me.
I understand lurking can be quite suspicious, so I have every intention of being as active as I can - however, there's a lot of reading for me to catch up on and I'd rather take what time is available to form a proper, thought-out opinion before jumping in and making any accusations.
Expect another post within the next couple of hours. Hopefully a somewhat fresh, almost outside opinion on events thus far could help clear some things up.
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Oh hello funcmode. Welcome to the chaotic mess that is our thread.
If you hadn't read it before and want to get some directions, you may want to read my and Acrofales' analysis posts. In mine, there's like reads to half the thread so you can click yourself around and see roughly what happened when.
I understand this is a tall order for someone who's not caught up at all, but I hope you can overcome that daunting task and actually contribute to the game :D
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Putting it all together:
Dittert and Hiropro. The goodfellas.
Dittert makes negative posts about the following players:
Arcticfox + willz
On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:
@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now).
That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912.
Yomi
On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:
After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote.
##Vote: Yomi
Hiropro attacks:
Xatalos
On April 13 2012 01:16 HiroPro wrote:
You sound like a mafia member getting a bandwagon rolling and then jumping off before it crashes.
##Vote: Xatalos
vonK
On April 13 2012 07:11 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 07:01 Xatalos wrote:
Just my luck... Right as I post, HiroPro decides to suddenly post. Well, what do you think about my latest post, HiroPro? Am I still your only Mafia read? I like the case against vonKlaust a hell of a lot better than the one you made against ArticFox. The whole "i'm confused thing in the beginning is slightly scummy, but the bigger thing against vonKlaust for me is that he that he says that Xatalos has "several potential scumslips", is his prime suspect, but then doesn't vote for him. Someone who doesn't back up their scum reads with a vote is looking around for support too much to be town. ##Unvote: Xatalos##Vote: vonKlaust
Yomi and Brood
On April 14 2012 07:51 HiroPro wrote:
Scum read on BroodKing overall - I don't like the posts where he says not to share scum reads. The vote and case on willz is very strange, since a lot of the things he accusses willz of are similar to what BroodKing himself has been doing, and I don't really understand the vote switch onto yomi - to me it seems more like BroodKing was worried that willz was looking townie to other people and thus switched to a new target.
yomi - A lot of yomi's posting seems to be calling out various people as mafia without providing solid reasoning. I don't agree with vote on Dittert (Dittert seems much more like new town to me than mafia (RNG proposal is not really something to lynch over). Talking about ignoring various people in the thread because he doesn't like them is not town behavior at all. Yomi is scummy in my opinion.
##Vote: BroodKingEXE
So neither of them are super aggro but when they have targeted people it was never each other. Not the most compelling evidence but something in the basket. Notice how hiropro posts about his teammate Dittert when he perceives danger:
Discrediting Xatalos’ case vs dittert.
On April 13 2012 01:16 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +
I have a hard time figuring out the 3 Mafia from this back-and-forth action, but if we manage to find even one today, it should make it easy to figure out the rest tomorrow.
Why the sudden shift in tone? A few posts ago, you were 70 or 80 percent sure that ArticFox is mafia, in this same post you say that either yomi or Dittert is mafia, and yet at the same time you have a hard time figuring out who mafia is? You sound like a mafia member getting a bandwagon rolling and then jumping off before it crashes. ##Vote: Xatalos
Again, steps in to discredit an anti-dittert post
On April 13 2012 01:37 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote:
EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? Answer the question.
Pretty obvious:
On April 13 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote:
Dittert's posting is not that of mafia. He made a silly suggestion and then backed off it, much more indicative of inexperienced town.
Just gonna start posting them now lol. Most of his filter reads like this
On April 13 2012 06:54 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:49 Acrofales wrote:
I think all our scum lists are quite similar at the moment. I have dittert as a scumspect and am not as suspicious of trumpetarm: I find dittert's few posts more suspect than trumpetarm's, who seems to at least be trying to contribute.
Why do you say that trumpetarm's post contribute more than dittert's? All he's said was that the pressure votes were useless and that Xatalos may be town or sneaky mafia.
On April 13 2012 07:00 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:53 Acrofales wrote:On April 13 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote:Dittert's posting is not that of mafia. He made a silly suggestion and then backed off it, much more indicative of inexperienced town. On April 13 2012 05:01 Acrofales wrote:
Please tell me who you think is scummy and why? Read better. All I got from your contributions to this game is a really incoherent summary of Xatalos' scummy behaviour and a vote. If that is your only suspect I am unimpressed. What do you think of BroodkingExe? He's a confident poster but I don't agree with his reads on Dittert or his views on sharing reads. Townlike posting - gives a read, backs it up with logic (even though I don't agree with it) and doesn't waffle around.
On April 13 2012 08:20 HiroPro wrote:
Obviously I don't still view Xatalos as a mafia read. The reason why I first thought that Xatalos was more scummy in comparison to people like Dittert, was that Xatalos was an experienced player; it seemed unlikely that he would make a bad case like that. This is Dittert's first game; I would expect him to say something silly early on (RNG voting). Since then he hasn't yet posted much; so I can't really give much of a view on Dittert.
On April 14 2012 07:51 HiroPro wrote:
yomi - A lot of yomi's posting seems to be calling out various people as mafia without providing solid reasoning. I don't agree with vote on Dittert (Dittert seems much more like new town to me than mafia (RNG proposal is not really something to lynch over). Talking about ignoring various people in the thread because he doesn't like them is not town behavior at all. Yomi is scummy in my opinion.
##Vote: BroodKingEXE
Dittert turns on me as soon as I finger him and Hiropro together
+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote:
Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote:
If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote:
Hi I just got back from lifting.
I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic.
I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote:
EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote:
Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: YomiFirst off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss!
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OH MY GOD IT WAS A CONSPIRACY ALL ALONG
Or maybe not, but it's certainly a good story.
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I still have red read on xatalos and am willing to vote for any of these three players just fyi if you guys want to move to xat over dittert that's fine with me. Xatalos I am slightly less sure that he is mafia because he has played aggro towards ditt and hiropro at times. On the other hand xat has played aggro against almost everyone at some point. Xat I think is the most dangerous of the three players as he seems to hold the most influence. Or at least did at one point.
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On April 16 2012 03:08 KharadBanar wrote:
OH MY GOD IT WAS A CONSPIRACY ALL ALONG
well... ya. it was
Arguing that something sounds like a conspiracy theory is bizarre when we know for 100% sure there is in fact a conspiracy against us.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
@yomi
I don't think two people not attacking each other means they are both scum. Hiro defending Dittert is interesting, but you have to remember it was at a time when everyone but you had Dittert pegged as newb town so I'm not as confidident that it is suspicious behaviour. As for Dittert jumping on you when you linked the two of them I don't think both those things are linked. He came with good arguments as to why you seemed scummy and it doesn't strike me as him defending Hiro. Again this was early on in Day 1 and people were throwing accusations around a lot.
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I think yomi's post is definitely something to keep in mind. I for one had not triggered to HiroPro defending Dittert.
However, I am running into a problem. When looking through Dittert's filter properly I find his D1 posts read like town. The problem is his 2 last posts. He basically switched from an "I want to contribute" to a "Fuck you, you suck" stance. How is this helping town? It's like a football team beating up the goalie if the other team scores 1-0. Dittert, I want to believe you're town, but rather than martyring yourself (which is, if anything, a scummy thing to do), you need to help us find the actual scum.
You say you want to:
On April 15 2012 08:14 Dittert wrote:
Once you see I flip town, you'll be able to put a lot more of the pieces of the puzzle together.
However, this is not true. At the moment your flipping green would give us a big null tell on willz (and HiroPro): he has been defending you, either because he's town and believed you were town, or because he's scum and knows you're town (and an easy target to gain town credit on, because the chance of you ending up dead D1 was present... and is present again today).
It will probably make me, Yomi and KB look bad as we have been pushing hardest for your lynch.
I think you're confusing the two ways of killing. Being night-killed can give a bit more importance to your cases (not too much, mafia might just have killed you because you're strong town, or they had a suspicion of blue, or because they want to make town think that your cases were good... or wifom it up!). Being lynched brings out suspicion against whoever has been pushing for the lynch, bandwagons on. It doesn't add importance to whatever the lynchee said, except that we no longer have to wifom motive. For instance we can now believe everything broodking said was because he really believed that. Not that it helps much if what you have said so far is unconvincing.
In short: don't give up. Convince us on lynching willz or yomi (or a new scumspect you find when you read through the thread)!
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EPT
