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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
After this weekend my schedule should be a lot clearer. (I will still be able to post this weekend if we start by then; just wanted to justify my being in two games at once.) This will be my first non-mini game, looking forward to it! Also looking forward to a game that's heavy on flavor, I like that stuff. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
The usual cheating list includes the following item: 6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. Is this rule specific to the exact PM (in the same way "breadcrumbing the phrasing of your role PM" is cheating) or does it extend to things like summaries of the content of PMs? I ask because I'm unclear on how to interpret examples I've seen in other games - for example, in games with an inventor, if an inventor tried to make a certain invention but it wasn't allowed, would he be able to tell the other players that the mods had disallowed that invention? Or if a mod clarifies a rule in a PM, would a player be allowed to tell the thread about that clarification? | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
I just finished a particularly nasty problem set, so I'll be going to sleep soon and posting more tomorrow. This is the first game I've been in with an election, but as far as I can tell RazorFlash makes sense when he says that the Captain should share whatever information comes with the role with the rest of the crew. So far I haven't seen a particularly convincing case on who to lynch, but I'd be willing to vote for one if it's made. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
But actually - lets try to get this thing back on track. (In case that has already happened, let me mention I'm typing this after coagulation proposed shooting all of page 13 out the airlock. I type on my iPhone so posting takes a while.) First, I'm completely new to games with meta, but it seems like one of the richer parts of mafia analysis so I'd like to give it a try. Are there any veteran meta analyzers who wouldn't mind giving me a few pointers or advice on where to start? Either in the thread or in PMs? Now, let me post my thoughts about the election, since that seems like the main focus of day 1 so far. As I said above, it seems like having the captain agree to post any secret information they get with the role would be a good idea. The only game I've followed in real time with a day 1 election was Aperture Mafia, where Wheatley telling the town what power they got revealed the existence of the black market, which gave the town some really valuable information. I'm not sure what kind of information there could be that would be beneficial to town to keep secret. If the pro-secrecy candidates have some examples of the kind of information or powers which they would keep secret and where that would help the town, then I think I could be persuaded to change my mind. However, the first thing I can think of is that keeping captaincy powers secret would give the captain leverage to push their reads by claiming to have hidden information, which would hep the town only if the captain's reads are correct. So as for voting - So far the only candidates seem to be sandroba and acrofales. (and EchelonTee, but I think that was more of a joke since all he posted was "vote for me and I'll lynch _______" a few times.) I'm not comfortable yet with Sandroba's pro-secrecy stance, as I explained above, and I'm also not sure about voting for someone who says "I'll kill whoever I feel like and you can thank me later". I'm not saying I couldn't be persuaded otherwise, but for now I'm not comfortable voting for sandroba. As for acrofales, he actually seems to have withdrawn his candidacy. I guess if I had to vote right now, I would vote for neither of the candidates (sandroba and EchelonTee, if he's serious). I don't know of razor flash is actually running, but he'd probably have my vote at the moment on a combination of best speech and saying things I agree with. And fuxk, now I'm 20 minutes late for class and I still haven't finished my oatmeal T_T | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:33 sandroba wrote: @strongandbig Do you realise that anyone the "transparency" thing is 100% bullshit? You can't ever know if the person is telling the truth. If Mafia gets elected they will either tell you because it's irrelevant or lie to you if it's useful and you have no way of telling which. If town gets it, it's better if they don't share it with the whole thread if it somehow endangers their effectiveness. So in the end you have to vote for whoever you think is town and decent. Promises of transparency regarding the role don't mean shit. Just gonna briefly reply between classes. Yes, I realize that people can lie in a game of Mafia. I think when people are forced to make more information public, it gives more opportunities to either catch them in a lie or hold them accountable when events don't match with their story. Clearly we should all vote for someone we're pretty sure is town, and who we think is a good player. However, whether we vote for a "transparency" candidate or a "secrecy" candidate, there's a chance either way that we elect scum. In my opinion, we should force whoever we elect to give us information which we can then analyze, and we should hold them accountable for their actions. It seems like as long as we realize that they could be lying, we don't lose anything by getting more information from them. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Anyway, I'm voting for GMarshal. I realize he hasn't supported any kind of transparency agreement, and neither has Sandroba. That's fine; they're right, I guess, in that there could be information or powers given to the captain which it would help the town to keep secret. However, I think GMarshal's attitude of "I'll do what I think is best, but I'll explain it" is more helpful to the town than Sandroba's attitude of "I'll do what I think is best, and you can suck it." In my limited experience, good discussion has been one of the keys to good town play, and I feel like Sandroba's focus on private communications would not help that. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 14 2012 07:42 Node wrote: I'm not referring to that you're thinking out loud (I work the same way), but that you're so damn wishy-washy about it. If I look at your day 1 play in Newbie Mini Mafia VI, you're stating strong and clear opinions on lynch suspects and proposing cases of your own. Right now I'm not seeing that at all. In fact, the overall lack of discussion on who we want the captain to chuck into space in this topic is deeply disturbing. What do you think about some of the people in this game that aren't running for captain? If you read that, you should also know that all of those strong day 1 opinions were completely wrong. I'd like to think I learned a bit of humility. If you want my reads on people other than the captain candidates, here you go: I'm not sure what to make of VayeshMoru. At first I was suspicious because he seems to be hiding in the flavor, but it looks like he did the same thing in the last game he played. (Which was a really long time ago.) That said, it still seems like he hasn't been contributing much in public; plus he seems to have felt the need to publicly claim Station Researcher in the thread. Suspicious, but not for-sure scum. I think Kurumi has also not been acting very town. The thing is, he's probably right that all this early roleclaiming in PMs which is supposed to be going on is bad for town. However, he's not really making arguments in his posts; it's more like he's just yelling at people. I'm also kind of suspicious about Mr.Zentor. It seemed like he was running a joke campaign at first, with the copy-paste irrelevant speech - but then it turned serious, so I'm not sure what to make of that. Either a joke campaign or a serious one is fine, but shifting around makes me wonder a bit. I guess there's a lot of players that description could apply to though, so it's just something to keep in mind. That's what I have for now. Preview Edit: it looks like there's a couple new posts from Vayesh Moru while I was typing this, at least he's actively participating in the game now, even if he's doing it in a really weird way. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
If you look at the context of his posts, they go like this. He started his joke campaign near the beginning of the thread, when a lot of other people were starting joke campaigns - people including GMarshal, EchelonTee, and RazorFlash. A pretty good way to make an impression as being active without actually saying anything of value. However, now look at his first "serious" campaign post. A few things look scummy to me. First, there's the commitment to lynch whoever the thread picks, unless he's sure that someone else is scum. Now as other people have pointed out, that's a good scum move - the odds of the thread picking scum on day 1 are relatively low, and if they did pick scum, Zentor would be able to pick someone else. Sure, he would have to rationalize that the next day, but if he made a good enough case on whoever he did pick, it would give the scum team a better shot than just having whichever team member the thread chose killed with the day 1 lynch. Also, it's worth noting that Zentor is one of the only people who brought up this idea of doing a poll - it wasn't being demanded by the thread. At the time that he posted, there was a debate going on between Sandroba, myself, and earlier others including Ace and l10f about whether or not the Captain should pledge to reveal all the information that came with the role - but there wasn't a consensus or even a movement towards demanding that the captain be democratic with the lynch. What I and, I think, others were asking for was a Captain who would listen to the thread's cases and explain the reasoning behind his choice for the lynch - but not someone who would just bow to the people. While that could be a reasonable sentiment, it's also exactly the kind of Captaincy that scum would want to have - one that doesn't give them any responsibility. Now, let me note one other thing. When Zentor posted his four-point "serious campaign" post, changing from a joke candidate to a serious one, the captaincy race was a one-man show. Sandroba had four votes and no one else had more than one. GMarshal's post where he posted his skype info and indicated that he was running for real was within ten minutes before Zentor put up his post, and GMarshal still didn't have any votes. My contention is that this would have looked like the last shot for a scum candidate to get into the race. There was a very good chance that the election would have just snowballed into a coronation for Sandroba, instead of a competitive race. The timing of Zentor's entry as a serious candidate makes me think that he was put forward by the scum team in an effort to keep the race competitive, when it looked like Sandroba was going to run away with it. (Now let me say here that I'm not convinced that Sandroba's autocratic method is best, or even that he's town; that's why I'm voting for GMarshal. However, it looks unlikely that Sandroba and Zentor are both town, and I think Zentor is way scummier.) After that one post about being a serious candidate, there were some other posts about the campaign, but Zentor seems to have trailed off with his campaign when it didn't pick up any momentum. However, he hasn't done anything really pro-town since that time, as people above have pointed out. But I wanted to focus on his campaign specifically, since I don't think it's been brought up enough and it smells really scummy to me. In conclusion: Mr.Zentor is scum. PS: As usual, I don't know whether or not other people have posted using faster methods as I type this post. Just to establish context, as I started typing this the last post I see in the thread is by risk.nuke about running the noob mini and studying for exams. Sorry if I got ninja'd anything here isn't relevant anymore. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 15 2012 03:13 Ace wrote: I find it very hard to believe that 3 people within 5 minutes all decided to make a Mr.Zentor is Scum post. PM Land must be going wild right now. I post from my iphone, it took me like 25 minutes to type that post... T_T | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
I still hold to the case I made in my previous posts about his captain candidacy. The main case is in my filter, but to summarize: his positions were scummy because he went farther in the "democracy" direction than anyone was asking him to. His positions would have allowed him to avoid any responsibility for his actions unless town happened to pick up on scum day 1, in which case he would be able to defend that person. The timing of his change from a joke candidate to a serious one was really suspicious, because at the time it looked like sandroba was just going to snowball his way into the position, so zentor waited as long as he reasonably could have before starting a serious candidacy. His answer to these arguments has been, basically, "I'm too bad at this game to have been the scum candidate." First, that doesn't actually answer any of my arguments about how scummy his behavior was. Second, to me that's a really unpersuasive argument in itself, since it relies on us guessing at scum's decision making process. For all we know, scum could have chosen zentor as their candidate because he's bad at the game, either because then he could deny being the scum candidate using the exact arguments he has been using, or because that makes him expendable of his candidacy draws too much attention. No, MrZentor is scum and I'm voting him for the lynch. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
I really don't like the way this game has gone. Sandroba, as I told you in my PM, I think you effectively killed the thread with your mass PM claim plan. There's so much information now concentrated out in PM land that making reads in the thread is effectively pointless; there's no reason to try reading someone's tone or making a case on them when it'll just get superseded with the Lynch Plan from On High. I didn't really like how it started, with the "mechanic" arguments; and I reaaaaally don't like how it ended, with the terrible terrible shot on Ace for refusing to go along with the scheme. The game has become concentrated in only a few players, with everyone else just kind of on the periphery. So like I said, I really didn't want to do this; I wanted for Sandroba to be wrong in addition to making the game less fun. But Jackal's response to the pressure was just terrible. Like, just the fact that he lied to Sandro doesn't by itself make him scum for me, although it points in that direction. But for him to react like he doesn't give a flying fuck that he's been caught out, and for him to respond with three or four shitty one-liners; for him not to make any attempt to explain himself to the town, I don't see how he can be anything but scum. For the record I still think Zentor's play has been really scummy, and would be happy lynching him as well. ##unvote: MrZentor ##vote: Jackal58 | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 19 2012 12:06 talismania wrote: On my phone but I'll briefly add that it makes approximately zero sense for a scum Kurumi to give me the item that he did or for him to even have it on day 1. Do you know that the item worked? | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
His response to my case on him re: the captaincy was terrible, and he didn't respond at all to my or any case on him yesterday. At the end of the last day he was the number one lynch target. I think his sudden turn towards actual scum hunting is just an attempt to get us off his back. That said, his case on Kurumi is pretty good. Kurumi defended not one, but two players who later flipped scum - Jackal and l10f. That's two for two. I say we lynch Kurumi. If he flips scum, I'll eat my words and Zentor will be confirmed. On the other hand, if he flips town, then Zentor is still my best scum read and should be our next priority. It also seems like there's a lot of momentum towards a Sinani lynch. However, I'd like to see someone lay out the case against him a bit more explicitly than it has been. As it stands right now, the most persuasive cases I've read in the thread have been against Kurumi and MrZentor. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 19 2012 14:10 Snarfs wrote: I'm fine with this. I feel like the attack on Kurumi was a bit of a chainsaw defense. He was one of my biggest town reads from the beginning, really trying to get discussion going in the thread. For now my vote is on sinani. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. It was a chainsaw defense by Mr. Zentor. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 19 2012 14:20 Snarfs wrote: I don't get how you can say this and then vote for Kurumi. Well, no one seems to be listening to me about Mr. Zentor. If he is town then we lynch kurumi and get a scum. If he's not town we can find out by lynching kurumi and then lynching zentor. Either way we get a scum. Plus, look at his case - it's really good, kurumi has been defending a lot of scum and attacking a lot of towns people. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 20 2012 17:34 syllogism wrote: Hello S&B can you help me understand this a bit more. Zentor was your number one read, but instead of lynching him you wanted to lynch the person zentor found scummy because somehow seeing that flip will confirm zentor as town or scum. Further, you said that no matter which one of the two gets lynched, we will lynch scum. Do you think this line of reasoning is always applicable or even makes any sense whatsoever? After re-reading that post, no I don't think it makes any sense at all. Lynching kurumi doesn't give us information about zentor, just because he made an incorrect case. Town can make incorrect cases too. The one part that I think does make sense is my argument that it's suspicious that MrZentor decided to start scum hunting seriously a day after he was almost lynched. Let me explain the context and why I voted for kurumi. The ony previous game I've played was noob mini six. (I was also in bastard mafia, but I just trolled and got vigged night one so I didn't learn anything from that.) In noob mini six, I spent half the game making cases on Marvellosity and being extremely suspicious of him. It came down to the final day of LYLO, with me, marv, and a third player. On that final day marv made a very persuasive (to me) case against the other guy, and I ended up voting with him at the last minute; we successfully got the last mafia and won the game. However, it took me a really really long time to come to that conclusion, and I almost voted against marv anyway. Part of the reason for that was that marv was kind of suspicious as well, but it was mostly me being stubborn and thinking about how stupid I would feel if I switched my vote to agree with marvellosity and he turned out to be the scum. So what I was thinking when I posted that stuff about zentor and kurumi was that since I had been so stubborn about believing a good case from someone I had been suspicious about in the past. This time I tried to compensate for that an ended up overcompensating. As it stands now, I recognize that those posts were logically inconsistent; and that suggesting that zentor would be scum if kurumi turned out town is a logical fallacy. I'm still suspicious of Zentor; based on his play in the thread, I think he looks like scum. However, a lynch on him seems unlikely today, apparently because of some information the pm overlords have that they don't see fit yet to share with the rest of us. Sinani also looks like a decent choice, from his limited behavior in the thread, and I guess there's also a secret pm based case against him, so I'm switching my vote to him. | ||
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