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On March 19 2012 12:17 VisceraEyes wrote: Of course I intend for him to be lynched. Why would I vote for him otherwise? Silly questions. Don't worry about my vote. It's mine and I'll control it. You worry about your vote. Do something with it.
Well what is the point of saying "lets see what shakes out" if you are sure he is scum? To me that reads as a pressure vote. More importantly what exactly is the case against him?
xksc explained his reasoning recently. Do you have anything more to go on than "he was wishy-washy about his Jackal read".
On March 18 2012 10:11 VisceraEyes wrote: He's tripped a scum-alarm for me, particularly where his read of you is concerned. I found it to be weak and wishywashy. He even goes so far as to clarify that his read of you is "likely to change"...twice he said it. Plus not having much of a reason to state in-thread that he had a town read on you. Like, I have a town read on you, but his first response to my line of questioning was like "I don't know, I can't explain, etc etc." I know exactly why I have a town read on you, and it's quite easy to explain (as I demonstrated). And while I hope that doesn't change, I would never say that it's "likely" to change because I'm working under the assumption that I'm right.
This does not a case make. It was very early day 1 and this is his first game, it should not be surprising that he isn't confident in his reads. Explain to me how this makes him scum?
On March 18 2012 10:21 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay, claim after one vote. That's not doing you any favors either. I think we got a winner here guys. Ready, set, VOTE! This is so stupid my head hurts. He said he was VT. How is that claim? What is he supposed to do, maybe say something like this
On March 18 2012 07:37 VisceraEyes wrote: I'd like to take this opportunity to tell everyone that I'm town and definitely NOT scum this game His claim says nothing about his alignment but you take it as further evidence for your case.
On March 18 2012 10:53 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm asking why you'd be considered 'a prime lynch candidate'...you seem to have a lot of inherant guilt that's bubbling forth just in our little interaction...I can't wait to see what the case on you will be tomorrow.. His post that you were referring to is this
On March 18 2012 10:17 johnnywup wrote: Because I don't want people to think that I'm saying he's definitely town. If people think I *know* he's scum, then I'd be a top candidate for lynch... This is my first time playing and I'm not good at articulating what I'm thinking. It comes back to the same point, he isn't confident in his reads. Now yes he could be scum, but the point is there is nothing here that doesn't fit with a new townie. Your "inherent guilt" is bullshit because he is just trying to clear his name. You haven't explained why he must be scum, just that he backpedalled on his reads.
He has shown he is willing to try and clear his name. He has been active and transparent and you on the other hand are tunneling like a crazy person.
This should not come out of a veteran's keyboard
On March 18 2012 14:40 VisceraEyes wrote: At any rate, good luck with defending the indefensible, because as little reason as you think I have to be attacking him, that's exactly as little reason you have for defending him unless you know something I don't. You say he's a new player - I say I'm calling out new player scum mistakes.
If I see a bullshit case on someone who could be a townie I am going to poke holes in it. It is up to you to prove he is mafia, not the other way round. We should never lynch a townie because people are scared of defending those they see as town.
Right now you are being pushy and vocal and trying to get reactions which is fine, but you get held to the same standards as everyone else. Explain your vote.
If you have something else I'd like to see it because everything I read from you about Johnny is based on the same principle.
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On March 19 2012 12:48 VisceraEyes wrote: Thanks for the tips Probulous. As always, you're a pleasure to read.
So you don't want us to understand your reasoning or the motives behind your actions? I am just asking you to explain your vote but you are being deliberately opaque.
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Fuck this
##Vote: VisceraEyes
Maybe you'll play now.
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On March 19 2012 13:10 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 12:53 Probulous wrote: Fuck this
##Vote: VisceraEyes
Maybe you'll play now. I'm not interested in "selling" johnnywup to anyone as a lynch. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I'm interested in hearing some other options, but half the players are inactive. So yeah, good luck with your VE vote. Let's see what that shakes loose.
So you clearly don't believe he is scum then. Here is my thought process
VE thinks Johnny is scum ->VE votes for Johnny Probulous doesn't think Johnny is scum-> Probulous asks for a clear case from VE to check if he is missing something VE tells Probulous to fuck off-> Probulous is confused A town VE would want people to vote for scum -> VE is not town
If you believe Johnny is scum, you should want him lynched.
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On March 19 2012 13:25 johnnywup wrote: he does still want me lynched, hes made that much clear. he just has a better candidate in mind, seems like
Well if he wants you lynched he would be selling it to the rest of us, so no he doesn't want you lynched. Actions speak louder than words and his actions say he no longer thinks you are scum.
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On March 19 2012 13:26 xsksc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 13:21 Probulous wrote:On March 19 2012 13:10 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 19 2012 12:53 Probulous wrote: Fuck this
##Vote: VisceraEyes
Maybe you'll play now. I'm not interested in "selling" johnnywup to anyone as a lynch. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I'm interested in hearing some other options, but half the players are inactive. So yeah, good luck with your VE vote. Let's see what that shakes loose. So you clearly don't believe he is scum then. Here is my thought process VE thinks Johnny is scum ->VE votes for Johnny Probulous doesn't think Johnny is scum-> Probulous asks for a clear case from VE to check if he is missing something VE tells Probulous to fuck off-> Probulous is confused A town VE would want people to vote for scum -> VE is not town If you believe Johnny is scum, you should want him lynched. It looks like he wants him lynched, he just doesn't think there's enough people that also want him lynched so he's pursuing other options. That's how I see it.
I am asking him for a clear case that doesn't boil down to "he changed his reads", that is all. Sure I am only one vote but hey one vote is still a vote right? More importantly if you beleive you ahve scum day 1 you push that lynch till he dies, you don't go "Aah it's too hard, better try next time."
I have no problem with him disagreeing with me, it is his insistence that he won't even explain his position that makes me think he has no position. He just chose someone and ran with it. The fact that he was willing to lynch someone based on this makes him scum in my mind.
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On March 19 2012 13:34 VisceraEyes wrote: Probulous, you're dealing with too many extremes. First of all, there are more than one scum in this game. While I understand we can only lynch one at a time, I perceive a fair amount of resistance to his lynch and I'm opening myself up to other options. This isn't hard shit to understand, and I think you're being intentionally oblique. Lighten up sir. Look, me and jdub are cool. He knows what's up. If I'm wrong and he's town, me backing off him is a chance for him to do some actual scumhunting instead of constantly defending himself.
I don't want to have to go all OMGUS on you Probulous, so please understand that I know that you're better than to actually think I'm scum.
Thanks for the backhanded compliment. If you think I am scum say so, I hate it when people imply shit. Be straight with me and forget the veiled threats.
I don't like your play, it reeks of scum to me. I haven't played a game with you before so I am not sure if you always this "loquacious". Your targeting of Johnny who was clearly confused and out of his depth, was fine for an initial prod but to keep going looks like scum hoping for a wagon to form. When it was clear it wasn't happening, you backed off. My biggest issue with you is that you are not being transparent. You are posting a lot but when asked for specific information, you refuse. Why? I can't reconcile that.
I'm leaving my vote there for now, there are still many hours left in the day. Tobon is still on my radar so if he turns out to be a more viable lynch today I will switch.
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No that's all I needed. I talk a lot too. I disagree with your read on Johnny but at least your actions now make sense.
##unvote ##Vote: Tobon
What are your thoughts on Tobon?
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On March 19 2012 14:03 VisceraEyes wrote: By the way, it should be noted that Probulous defended johnnywup using the words "confused" and "out of his depth". I'm excited to see these guys flip. ^^
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On March 19 2012 14:09 xsksc wrote: Hmm, I find it odd that most people seem to have so easily accepted johnny as a confused newb townie. Personally, I haven't really seen anything from him which is inherently town, he could just as easily be scum. Probulous, I'd too like to know why you used the words "confused" and "out of his depth" to defend him. Why does that make him town? If he rolled scum as a brand new player, he could just as easily fuck up and then panic when the pressure is applied. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I'm yet to get a town vibe from him.
I liked his second post
On March 18 2012 07:41 johnnywup wrote: I don't buy it from VE, no reason to reveal faction at this stage in the game when no one is even accusing you. You may be trying to get our subconscious trust from the very beginning. But I don't know. You could be lying but you could be telling the truth. It's too early to say which is more likely. But I've got an eye on you.
It would be very easy for a new scum to just agree with what the veteran's say. He has also been in thread constantly posting. Scum would have told him to shut up a long time ago. Unlike VE he has been open with his thoughts and that has been half his problem. The guy is all over the place and to me that is more likely town than scum. I just don't see his scum team leading him down the river like that so early in the game. I agree it is not much but neither is the case against him.
As for the use of confused, here take a look
Well, he was being agressive towards you. Of course, you weren't necessarily accusing him. I think he took the "also looks at jackal" as a direct attack towards him. Otherwise, general aggressiveness obviously isn't a town-tell. but like i said this opinion is not concrete and is very likely to change. He clearly has no idea how to respond.
My defense was simple really, he could be confused scum, he could be confused town but him being confused has nothing to do with his alignment. So you don't vote for him based off of it. I hate it when we lynch a guy based on a bad case and "he changed his mind" is a bad case.
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I hate this deadline time >_>
I tried to get in early to work but I got pulled into a meeting when I got in. Finalising objectives for 2012 (in March, that's big company efficiency for you). I am on lunch at the moment but won't be around for long. Sorry guys, I wish I could be more productive, fucking work is giving me the shits. Anyway, we are one scum down which is an awesome start, here is the next.
Sloosh He is clearly scum this game. The first thing I would like to point out is his meta (this is not the whole case, just sets the tone).
Here is Sloosh as town Surprisingly Normal Mini Mafia VII He is a VT Newbie Mini Mafia III - He is a Medic
Now look as his Mafia play Newbie Mini Mafia IV - He is a Goon
When he is town he posts like crazy and forces town to follow his reads. He is forthright and pressuring. When he is mafia he lurks and posts only what he needs to post. His major case when he was mafia was a tunnel on a townie and he refused to look at other cases. This game his filter doesn't even reach a page despite all the shit that has happened so far. His only case was against xksc which was forced as anything and he didn't comment substantially on anything else. From a run through of his filter he looks like scum, so how about when we take a closer look.
The xksc case - Klicky This is the crux of the post
On March 18 2012 15:18 slOosh wrote: Right now my eye is on xsksc: the first thing he does is join VE and start grilling the newbie. He then posts a pre-emptive defense for his lack of vote. He takes a whole paragraph to say "I didn't vote because I wasn't sure". Wishy washy about his read, giving obvious advice about using our time without actually doing it himself and keen to explain why he did not add a vote even though no one actually asked him. Note that xksc never said he thought Johnny was town, just that he might be town. Anyone early on Day 1 who is adamant they have found scum and will not change their vote is likely to be scum. Unless there is a definite scumslip it is reasonable to be wary about your reads. That was why I thought VE's read on Johnny was a pressure play because nothing so far was definitely scummy. Sloosh tries to paint xksc's prudence as wishy-washy play.
When xksc points this out Sloosh follows up with this case (Klicky) which boils down to
On March 19 2012 00:26 slOosh wrote: 3) You take half a paragraph to assert that we have a lot of time and implicitly encourage thread stagnation as you do not offer any new discussion points or "push a town agenda" 4) You completely ignore my suspicions on your 'wishy-washy on the fence' nature point in my case.
Add in some misrepresentation (painting me as someone stupid enough to try to convince someone that they are scum) and some more sidestepping (in the form of asking me for my stance without clarifying your own at all) and right now you are my #1 read. The main point I get from here is that xksc is apparently not pushing the discussion along and so is being hypocritical. Well I disagree, he was clearly forcing Johnny to respond to his case. His point about time was that there is plenty of it available to Johnny to shape up. It is clear from his posting that xksc was suspicious of Johnny but wasn't sure because the case was weak. Again, Sloosh is painting xksc as being wishy-washy and fluffy when he is one of the few that is actually contributing. Also note, he has not commented on Johnny specifically (aside from saying he thinks he is a deer in headlights). He hasn't commented on VE either, or Jackal, or anyone else. This is really similar to his play in Newbie Mini Mafia IV.
He then nails to coffin shut with this beauty of a case ( Klicky ). This is the important bit
On March 19 2012 05:54 slOosh wrote: Nothing in your filter indicates a reservation of opinion. It's clear that you already think he is scum and are shutting down evidence from a guilty until proven innocent standpoint. Add to that some even more misrepresentation, acknowledging the only line I mention him yet somehow construe that I am "so sure" he is town, when I made no such read. You are right to be confused. Apparently xksc is now not being wishy-washy but is stubborn. He has clearly made up his mind and will not change it and that makes him scum? This is scum realising their case is shit and finding something else to pin on their suspect.
Then when this is not enough he moves in another direction (Klicky).
On March 19 2012 10:34 slOosh wrote: Saying someone could be mafia for traits that he himself displays; I think that constitutes hypocrisy. Which was rightly pilloried as both hypocritical and inconsistent. See the pattern here. When the case makes no sense, find a reason for it to make sense. When even this doesn't work he moves onto others (Klicky).
His next major contribution is his case against Snarfs (Klicky). I have no problem with the post itself. It did come after Tobon, sandroba and jcarlsoniv voted for Snarfs so the timing looks like joining a wagon.
Either way it is a decent post which is followed by this doozy (Klicky). Yes, Snarfs' broke the rules but to me this looks like someone hoping for a modkill.
Then his final post before the deadline is (Klicky), which has rightly been pointed as very scummy. The whole thing reads as someone trying to distance themselves from the impending lynch, which combined with the timing just confirms my read. It gives him a good excuse not to bus his scum buddy. If the only time he had to post was right at the deadline when the lynch was already confirmed jumping onto Jackal would look like a bus. His vote wouldn't have made a difference to the end result so he decides to post an excuse and place a vote to nowhere.
TLDR - Sloosh has pushed a phony case all game and when forced to re-evaluate, jumped on a townie wagon and then placed an excuse for not voting for scum right on the deadline after the lynch was confirmed.
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Is anyone here? I've only got about 15 minutes till my next meeting. I'll try and pop on later tonight (probably in around 8 hours).
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You have about 10 minutes, any questions. Thoughts?
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Quick post: When I elft the thread yesterday the major part of the case was xksc. I still wasn't sure if this was Tunnel Sloosh or scum Sloosh. His jump on Snarfs and unvote before the deadline convinced me otherwise. Got to got, will respond to all questions tonight. Sorry guys
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On March 20 2012 11:13 xsksc wrote: @probulous Not saying the case is bad, it's good, I'm just confused by the timing. I've been telling everyone sloosh is scum for ages now and you've had plenty of chances to support me if you felt that way about his case on me.
My last post from yesterday was this one (Klicky). I didn't push the Sloosh case because I wasn't sure about whether he was being his usual tunneling self. I also wasn't sure about you. If you remember I was pushing VE for his terrible case on Johnny and you jumped on his wagon. Now yes, you explained your position, which, made sense but that was just before I left. Then I missed the deadline due to stupid work. Sloosh actions since I left made him look even more scummy so I posted what I had when I could.
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Hey guys just got in. Before the deadline hits, here is my response to Sloosh's defense (Klicky)
The only meta we have on Sloosh is his newbie games, are we supposed to just assume he is a completely different guy now? As for pushing veterans around, well they are players too and could be scum as well. Right now we have your previous actions or your word.
Part of the reason I didn't push this yesterday was because I too was suspicious of xksc but for reasons completely at odds with you. I thought both VE and xksc were being far too gungho about lynching someone who could be a newbie town. I think this is the weakest part of my case against Sloosh because it could just be a townie pushing who they think is scum for really bad reasons.
Your jump onto Snarfs' was bad. There were others on him already and then you call him out for a simple mistake. The most telling things was the comparison with his previous play which is indeed quite different. Saying something that can be interpreted as contradictory does not make a case.
Finally your unvote was really badly timed. I agree with Dirkzor that it looks like scum either trying for a no-lynch or providing reasons not to bus their partner. Saying sandroba was not confirmed town is technically correct but we can't play mafia assuming everything a massive ballsy mafia setup. The chances of sandroba being scum are very slim and there is no reason to play like he is mafia. He was the first one to call out Jackal, so for sandroba to be mafia he would have had to be bussing one of his team mates before anyone else as well as outing his other scumbuddy (assuming 3 scum).
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On March 21 2012 02:45 Dirkzor wrote: Oh and to add about probulous: He have made excuses for being away. Mostly people who are scared to get caught lurking excuse themself being away from thread. I hate when people use excuses that are mostly life stuff (birthdays and work)
Whatever man I'm just trying to be transparent.
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On March 21 2012 07:40 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 07:31 sandroba wrote: Yeah I can agree with that. I'd like to hear arguments from everyone though, since I'm not very sure myself. I'm leaning towards Nemesis being town. After my initial vote, he hasn't done anything to raise my suspicions, and as I stated before the day post I think his tunneling of one of the stronger players this game doesn't make much sense from a scum point of view.
This is my feeling too. I think Sloosh is mafia and Nemesis has been pushing Sloosh as well. I find it hard to believe that mafia would be bussing Day 2 given they lost Jackal with the first lynch. I'll take another look and see if I can find anything.
##Vote: Sloosh
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EBWOP: Damn you with your weird spelling
##Vote: slOosh
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Alright I just got in to work. Going to read up on and respond shortly.
I am Town, Vanilla Town, lynch Sloosh.
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