TL Mafia LII: JubJub Mafia

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 08 2012 20:17 GMT

#85

On March 09 2012 03:21 Fan wrote:
OMG! That dashingly handsome rogue Mr. Wiggles has signed up for JubJub mafia! I hope more people sign up soon, so that I get to see his sublime and masterful play again! Maybe he'll do a shout-out to me... if he did, I think I'd die I'd be so happy! All that game needs now is more people! They better sign up fast, I'm too impatient!

Also, I bet the set-up is actually all VTs, and the no role flip is just to screw with peoples heads. :p

What happened to the traitors?

Also, when you say the game is capped at 20 players, do you mean that it's a 20 player game, or that that's the maximum, and if less people sign up we'll go with that and the game will be rebalanced accordingly?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 09 2012 21:55 GMT

#114

On March 10 2012 06:17 rgTheSchworz wrote:
Yes, I did read.
But put it this way:
If the ,, rounded up,, procedure applies, then scum can use all but 0.5 KP on special powers.
If there s 1 Godfather, then they can, for example, cover up their whole team as town each night.
Or frame the obv scummy ones till town implodes from mistrust.

My view: Somewhat broken.Daygame should be the most important thing in a normal mafia game.

rant ended

If I read the OP right, there are no roles such as GFs, Framers, and RBers. Instead, mafia have a certain amount of KP, and can spend it on powers instead of using it to kill.

While mafia KP is a whole number, i.e. 1,2,3...n, they get to use one .5 ability for 'free' without lowering their KP.

Let's use the number 2.5 for example, and take something like 5 total mafia, which is just off the top of my head. Then, the mafia get a choice. They can either use all three KP to make hits, or they can use 1 KP on powers, and have two hits. That gives them two hits, and two out of cover/frame/rolecheck/roleblock, which is pretty normal for most games, or they can reverse one role.

If they did what you said, using all but .5 KP on powers, then all they effectively do is make life harder for our blues, but at the cost of only having one actual KP to use. Sure, this makes it so that our blues are weaker, but it also severely lowers the mafia's ability to snipe blues/vets/dangerous players, meaning they'll stay in the game longer, and have more time to act. The longer the game goes on, the harder it is for mafia to stay hidden, so that plan is in effect a double edged sword.

So, in my example of mafia having 5 members, which is almost a quarter of the player base, if they want to have an effective KP, they can only use two powers, which is very normal for a game with that amount of players, in my opinion. This method of mafia actions lets them have more flexibility in what they do, and opens up more strategies, but also makes them somewhat weaker in terms of raw strength once the numbers get lower. i.e. They can't have a roleblocker/framer/goon left and still use both powers and have two KP.

I don't think it's broken.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 11 2012 06:09 GMT

#154

First, let me say I'm glad we moved away from that LaL, Lynch Lurkers discussion that always seems to get rehashed every game now. I don't think it does too much for us, so I'm happy you're talking about something else now.

Secondly, I'm unsure exactly where I sit on the declaration of PM targets. As far as I know, the only game that used limited PMs like this was the one (forget the name) that I played with BC, as scum. How that worked, was we tried to get as many people as we could to PM us, while saving our own PMs for specific purposes, and we made sure not to stack targets. BC managed to get a whole bunch of people to PM him merely on the basis of being a vet, and he used that to completely screw the town. More than half of the town was talking to him, and not many of them knew that others were, which was a problem, when BC used that to leverage reads from people and tell others who to push and generally misdirect the town.

So, as I see it, there's both advantages and disadvantages to declaring who you're PMing with. Off the top of my head:

Advantages:

-Stops scum from completely spreading out their PMs, as we can see who's talking to who, and they don't want to 'waste' them, but will be forced to, or else we can use it to find scum.
-Stops any one player from gaining too much influence in the town, as we know how the connections between players are mapped.
-Scum already know who PMed them, this way, as people flip, we know who PMed scum as well.

Disadvantages:

-Makes townies talking to each other a lot weaker. For example, if two strong townies decide to PM each other and announce it, scum know they're both town, more or less, and will be sure to kill one off to stop them from forming strong analysis.
-Stops people from laying PM 'traps', that rely on a second person and the third person not knowing you two are in contact.
-Stops town 'circles' from forming. Ties into the first point.

Personally, I don't think we need to all announce who we're PMing with, so long as we're careful about it, and that's the problem. A lot of people are really dumb when it comes to using PMs, and get too comfortable with others and let things slip, or say things that they shouldn't, or let mafia influence their actions. I think the key is to just be honest. As a townie, you have nothing to hide, and nothing to worry about. Use PMs to your advantage. Use them to talk with other players, get a read on them, form analysis. DON'T use them though, to let someone else tell you what to do, or what to think. If you get uncomfortable, and think someone's trying to direct you, and maybe others, bring it up.

On March 11 2012 14:27 gumshoe wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm saying it should be an option to privately open a pm, I might not want to announce the people I trust, i feel we shouldn't be considered automatically scummy because we dont announce who we pm, there are reasons to privately open a pm like say if your convinced the person on the other end is a blue and you want to talk to them about thier findings but you dont want to broadcast them to scum.

Further more I wasnt asking we rely on the wisdom of town, I simply wanted people to announce when they've been contacted by two people and then we could know if it would be right to have that person posses a higher number of contacts than most.

PMs aren't for fishing for blues. That's not something you want to do as town, as role fishing is one of the tools scum use in PM to gain information and blue-snipe. Don't role-fish. Don't ask others to claim to you. If someone's trying to do this, they're probably scum. I'm going to repeat myself, be careful. PMs are great for town, but you have to be careful, and use them right.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 11 2012 18:04 GMT

#189

On March 11 2012 22:31 Jackal58 wrote:

Show nested quote +

My advocacy is not set in stone. Hence why I asked for a dissenting viewpoint. The discussion is much better than the typical day 1 LaL/Lurker conversation we've all seen a million times already.

Mr Wiggles - Why state the obvious in your disadvantages? Of course scum know who's town.

I said that mafia know "more or less" who's town, because there's a traitor in the game. So, they don't know 100% that anyone is town, and that they won't be shooting their traitor. Secondly, I never said that mafia knowing who town is was the disadvantage, I said that because mafia knows you're town, if they see you talking to another strong townie (who they'll also know is town), they can just shoot you and stop you from collaborating. In the first little bit of PMing, you're likely to be more wary of the other person while you try to establish a read, meaning that mafia can eliminate your PM threat before you accomplish anything, if you announce it. I'm not sure how you read that.

On March 11 2012 18:19 prplhz wrote:
Hey guys

I'm surprised that Jackal58 is openly advocating that people announce who they are in PM contact with immediately. It's somewhat okay when a guy like Mattchew hides behind the "more information for town"-mantra, but I expect more from Jackal58.

If player A and player B are in contact with each other and they're both town, then why does the rest of the game need to know this? Scum can shoot into people to prevent town circles this way (as Mr. Wiggles already pointed out) and that's pretty bad. You are just giving scum extra information.

The PM mechanism is a town favored mechanism and we shouldn't be so afraid of it as everybody seems to be. We should instead encourage people to use it wisely. Fear mongering such as "Oh, BloodyC0bbler used this in some game to kick town's ass so lets all be afraid of PMs" is harmful, while "Be ware that people might be scum, don't just trust them because they're in PM contact with you. Use your brain." is a lot more useful for the single townie and for town as a whole.

Also, Mr. Wiggles advice on "state in thread when someone rolefishes" is bad. Use your brain. If a guy asks you for his role then there's no real harm in that, both townies and scum would benefit from it. If he insists on you telling him his role while you're trying to talk about reads and analysis, then you can start getting suspicious.

I'm not going to announce who I'm in PM contact with, unless they're scum. Every townie who says that they're going to say in the thread who they're in contact with is making it less likely that other people contact them, which is a bad thing.

I'll probably write a list of people I think are going to be very active in this game and then RNG one of them and PM contact that guy. I didn't really decide yet.

What the hell? How's there no harm in someone asking you for your role? Why would another townie want to know your role, or more importantly need to know your role? If you're a townie, and you're rolefishing, you're just being dumb. You look like scum. Scum love to rolefish, because it lets them shoot blues for free, without the town having any idea why that person was shot. I completely fail to see why asking someone if they're a detective, or a medic, or whatever, is good for town. If you're a blue, you're really a VT. As soon as you tell people you're blue, without coming out in the thread, you compromise yourself, and you should be aware of that.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 11 2012 18:08 GMT

#191

On March 12 2012 03:05 Jitsu wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't have to click that link, because those were the two people I was thinking about from Arkham as well. Part of me thinks that they were allowed to run rampant around because they weren't held accountable for the shit they did.

If I remember correctly, RGTS made it alive to the end, or close to it. Instead of him, would you think town would have benefit from someone who didn't spout lies every other post? I certainly do.

So again, just because townies lie, don't think logically, and play anti-town, yes, I, and I hope you, will hold them accountable for that.

If you know someone's town, or strongly believe someone to be town, why would you kill them 'just because'?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 11 2012 18:20 GMT

#196

On March 12 2012 03:15 Jitsu wrote:
If I know or strongly believe someone is town, then I will put them on my ignore list, if they are cluttering up the thread with useless things.

I can also tell you I won't "strongly believe" someone is town if they are playing anti-town.

Alright, so long as we're able to differentiate between bad play and scum, then we agree.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 11 2012 20:16 GMT

#210

Caller, do you actually have any other reasons to vote DrH besides that he said 'pro-town', and that you want to and think that there's no downside to doing so? Also, I don't see why there'd be no net loss from killing him if he's town, as from my own experience, he's capable of scumhunting.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 11 2012 23:27 GMT

#232

Are you three (Curu, Caller, prplhz) communicating together already? In the space of twenty minutes, all three of you come out with similar cases all on Jackal, and then prplhz thinks the first person was Curu, when it was Caller. Based on the name at the top of the post, and the content of the post, it's pretty hard to mistake what Caller wrote for being Curu. This looks pre-meditated. What gives?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 11 2012 23:47 GMT

#240

On March 12 2012 08:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Why on earth would scum all make the same case on the same guy in the same time and not just defer it to one person? What a stupid thing to call out, it doesn't mean anything it's just a bandwagon. Mr.Wiggles do you really find it that suspicious?

I read it as prplhz knowing that Curu was going to post something on Jackal, so he just called it out without actually reading the post. Caller could or could not be a part of it. It just looks weird to me.

On March 12 2012 08:33 prplhz wrote:
Caller had written short derpy posts so far and then I just saw a big post with Jackal58 in red and I expected a lot more from Curu. I'm never very confident in anything I do, probably just a character trait, so I got giddy when I saw somebody else agree with me and I didn't read his name properly.

I just thought what you thought too by the way, but think it over.

Ok, so if you read the post, how could you think it was Curu? The whole thing was pretty much about how Jackal's been responding to Caller, and how Caller was making a crappy case for DrH's lynch. There's even parts in it about how you posted about Caller. The whole thing was written in the first person, too. Like I said, it looks weird.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 12 2012 02:48 GMT

#254

On March 12 2012 11:36 Jackal58 wrote:

Show nested quote +

How would you like me to respond? I called bullshit on Caller and He does an OMGUS which is enough for the two biggest Jub Jubs in this game to jump on board with.
Caller spouted bullshit, I called him on said bullshit. And then he spouts more bullshit.

Who do you want to lynch?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 12 2012 21:03 GMT

#345

On March 13 2012 05:28 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
How does Caller thinking a scum would defend another scum make him scum? Maybe I'm not following your logic.

Jackal, roleclaiming was unnecessary. If there is no claim to the contrary I'll believe you. Dreamflower is a pretty specific role and I doubt there is more than one in this game as opposed to something like medic or veteran.

We need to reconsider the business surrounding prplhz. His play is poor but it's not particularly scummy and the attempt to pin someone as scum for making a similar case around the same timeframe is ridiculous and comes off to me as a hamfisted attempt by scum to start a bandwagon. The fact that it took makes me even more sure it's scum originated or backed.

Wiggles is the first to jump on it, doing nothing in the game besides talk about mechanics/town strategy (at great length) until this point I'm surprised his first attempt at hunting scum is so forced and illogical. The fact that prplhz made a case near the same time period is inconclusive, might perhaps implicate that he is town talking to curu or caller in PM but hardly mafiaesque.

Jitsu is the only one who voted for him and he's already been in the hotseat. This is the most alarming event in this thread to me. The Caller vs VE deal is really coming off to me like an ensuing tragedy of townie vs townie.

See, the funny thing, is that I never actually wrote, or even implicated that they were all scum. I just wrote that prplhz calling Caller Curu and then Curu coming out with his own case right after looked like it was planned, and asked if they were communicating about it because it looked weird to me. In fact, the first person to draw the implication that I was calling them all scum together... was you.

On March 12 2012 08:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Are you three (Curu, Caller, prplhz) communicating together already? In the space of twenty minutes, all three of you come out with similar cases all on Jackal, and then prplhz thinks the first person was Curu, when it was Caller. Based on the name at the top of the post, and the content of the post, it's pretty hard to mistake what Caller wrote for being Curu. This looks pre-meditated. What gives?

On March 12 2012 08:47 Mr. Wiggles wrote:

Show nested quote +

So now, it looks like you're trying to set up a possible lynch on me, by saying that I've been posting only about mechanics and town strategy, and calling that post a forced and illogical attempt at scum-hunting. However, it was actually yourself who attributed my post to calling them scum. Funny, isn't it?

Hey, look! While I was writing, you did it again:

On March 13 2012 05:43 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Player A: He made a reading error! He's scum!

JubJub: That makes so much sense....we better lynch him. Only scum would mess up their posts because they have the advantage of coordinating with a team that tells them what and when to post!

I'm assuming that I'm player A, but again, look at how DrH is trying to misrepresent me as calling prplhz and Curu scum, when I didn't write anything of the sort.

How long was it going to be before you tried to make a push for my lynch?

On March 13 2012 05:51 Kurumi wrote:
My Rattata and I need friends.
I am voting for the person who put the least effort into voting Jackal and this is Node. It's D1 and I don't want to lose him. We can verify his claim at any time.
Also
Jackal's Town: He gets roleblocked. Mafia loses 0.5KP every Night.
Jackal's Scum: Thanks to basic math we might work out that he is lying about roleblocks.

I don't think that will work. Jackal will claim roleblocked every night, and we won't be able to tell, because scum can use a cover, and if Jackal claims RB, we wouldn't know the difference.

Also, just to point it out now, the OP implies that the mafia are in possession of KP roles. Each member of the mafia contributes .5 KP, and there's 4 mafia. That's 2 KP to start. The cover ability costs 2.0 KP. That means, that mafia are not naturally able to use the cover ability in conjunction with a kill unless they recruit the traitor without losing any members, which seems unlikely. That implies to me, that the mafia are likely to have some sort of vigilante role, so that they actually have the option of using the cover to hide a kill in the game.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 12 2012 23:35 GMT

#426

Caller, why haven't you actually been pushing for Jackal's lynch if you want to kill him?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 13 2012 00:07 GMT

#433

Caller, you're accusing VE of setting himself up to look good no matter what the outcome of the lynch is, but isn't that exactly what you're doing as well? You're trying to set up a day 2 lynch without even knowing the result of this one, nor any night flips. Also, the lynch you're pushing for, is if we mislynch, again something you accuse VE of doing.

On March 13 2012 05:27 Caller wrote:

Show nested quote +

Look at this scumslip. He already knows what Jackal is. I can think of one reason why.

I specifically said that no matter if Jackal is town or mafia that you're setting yourself up to reap the reward of knowing ahead of time what Jackal is. As a result. I'm trying to stop you.

You're saying that you had previously defended a mafiaso and you're never doing it again. The trouble here is, you're defending Jackal. So you therefore seem to know that Jackal is NOT mafia, and since you know his role DAY 1, this leads me to conclude that you're...

Its quite simple: we lynch Jackal. If he comes up mafia, hurray. If he's not mafia, VisceraEyes must be mafia.

One last thing: I don't use "think" and "theory." More false doubt... more mafia tactics.

DrH, are you still around? What do you think?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 13 2012 00:57 GMT

#442

On March 13 2012 09:43 Node wrote:
##Unvote Jackal58

Change of heart, Node?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 13 2012 02:05 GMT

#448

I'm going to vote Caller for now, I need to do some stuff, and I'll read over before day ends. We have two hours, right?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 13 2012 04:36 GMT

#469

So we could have become cannibals if we lynched someone? Well, that sucks.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 13 2012 22:00 GMT

#604

VE, Palmar says you two talked for a while in PMs. What did you end up talking about?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 13 2012 22:13 GMT

#611

On March 14 2012 07:06 VisceraEyes wrote:

Show nested quote +

Mostly arguing about whether or not I should roleclaim to him. I asked him a few questions designed to help me determine his alignment, but those all flopped because he refused to read the thread at the time...something about being at work and hating effort.

Ok, I was wondering if you actually talked about the game or not, and things like reads, because then your altercation in the thread would be pretty revealing. Hopefully Palmar confirms.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 14 2012 04:55 GMT

#713

Jackal, is your dreamflower role compulsive?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 14 2012 22:02 GMT

#849

On March 15 2012 06:24 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well fuck you're right... any other explanation or should I start turning on Caller?

Sentinel, why do you make no sense at all? If Caller believes you're the traitor, it probably means that he thinks you're the traitor based on your behaviour, not because he's a detective/is in contact with a detective. I don't get how you're making the logical leap to that. =/

Kurumi, you've already claimed, so would you mind explaining exactly how your role works and what it does? I've tried searching it up, but I can't find anything specific, and it doesn't mean your role is the same.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 15 2012 15:40 GMT

#968

On March 15 2012 23:46 Jackal58 wrote:
So we're killing 2 townies today. Scum kills 2 more tonight.
Good luck to ya.
I'm outta here.

Why do you think Kurumi's a townie?

It seems much more likely, that he's actually scum, not the traitor, and that dreamer was provided to mafia as a safeclaim. So, he knows what the role does, but he had to make up his own dreams, which ultimately revealed him. Dreamer's a decent thing to claim, because if you write your dream cryptically enough, you can probably get town to waste a whole bunch of time trying to decipher it, when it's complete gibberish. Also, if Kurumi's actually scum and trying to cover for you, it puts you in a much worse light. As traitor, it could have been he just thought you were scum, but as scum, he would have known you were scum.

Also, Kurumi's traitor behaviour makes sense for mafia. "Pretending to be the traitor" seems like a decent enough way to attract him into PMs with him. It's like a public call-out to the traitor.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 16 2012 04:38 GMT

#1134

Palmar, how did you go from:

On March 14 2012 23:51 Palmar wrote:
I hate playing roles, but fuck it. Jackal is likely telling the truth, I have additional information to back up his claim.

To:

On March 15 2012 23:02 Palmar wrote:
##Lynch: Jackal58

Looking through your posts, you flip-flop on three different people, and then do this seemingly out of the blue. What made you decide to switch to Jackal?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 16 2012 04:38 GMT

#1135

On March 16 2012 13:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
How is Palmar not confirmed when he proved his role

What role?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 16 2012 04:52 GMT

#1143

On March 16 2012 13:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote:

Show nested quote +

King, I think it was

He said VE was a kingmaker, and made him king for the day. That means he gets to pick a lynch of someone on the day where he's king. It's not his role, unless this is a different kind of kingmaker, and even then, it doesn't say anything about his alignment, as VE made him.

On March 16 2012 13:46 Mattchew wrote:
that was me wiggles

What did you say to him to get him to think that Jackal was a good lynch? Why did you think Jackal was a good lynch? Did it have anything to do with Kurumi's roleclaim? Why do you think he believed you? Would you mind sharing the relevant chat logs?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 16 2012 04:55 GMT

#1145

What alignment does traitor flip on death? Just scum?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 16 2012 05:04 GMT

#1148

Ok, that's not particularly revealing, because it doesn't look like there was too much discussion, and Palmar doesn't say much back to you besides "ok", so I still want to hear from Palmar. Thanks for posting that, though.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 16 2012 05:31 GMT

#1151

Mattchew, how does that confirm him as town?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 16 2012 06:42 GMT

#1155

On March 16 2012 15:36 Bill Murray wrote:
jay pushing a lynch isn't always indicative of alignment
i wasn't in the know on kurumi being scum, although that would have been nice considerin the town im stuck with this game

What do you mean you weren't in the know? Being in the know for that lynch was reading the thread and seeing that his role claim was a complete fabrication.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 16 2012 13:35 GMT

#1190

Palmar, can you answer:

On March 16 2012 13:38 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Palmar, how did you go from:

Show nested quote +

To:

Show nested quote +

Looking through your posts, you flip-flop on three different people, and then do this seemingly out of the blue. What made you decide to switch to Jackal?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 17 2012 06:18 GMT

#1280

I really love all the talk about different lurkers, but while you're arguing that, you should also place scrutiny into this group:

Mr. Wiggles
Deconduo
Caller
Curu
Dr. H
prplhz
Bill Murray

Roughly a quarter of the game is scum, and considering balance, at least one, if not two of the people on this list are scum. I know I'm town, and I'm pretty certain Decon is town, so that leaves 5 other names. containing something like one or two scum. I'm going to read over these people's filters, and see what I can find. I suggest you do the same thing. If we decide not to lynch into this list today, that's fine, as it's likely that people from this list will continue dying night by night, and as they do, the list will become smaller, and thus pressure on the scum in it should increase, if you keep it in mind. Just don't enter the endgame with only one person from here alive, and not consider the possibility that they're a flaming red mafioso.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 18 2012 03:44 GMT

#1308

On March 18 2012 09:11 jaybrundage wrote:
I dont even know why people think im scum >.<

Because you do and say scummy things. :p

Did everyone (including me) die?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 18 2012 18:06 GMT

#1314

I think the fact that Caller got called out directly after shooting and then didn't post anything afterwards is pretty telling. It looks like he's given up on the game. Reading through his filter, he hasn't really interacted much with other players, besides attacking VE and Jackal. Then he pushes for Kurumi after it was obvious he was scum, and makes a post calling Dr. H scum.

On March 18 2012 22:41 layabout wrote:
Since the lynch is pretty much done with, maybe we should continue to post?

Show nested quote +

Wiggles, how did you come up with this list?

Basically, it's a list of players who would be considered veterans, and if the game was balanced for players, at least one would figure on the scum team as their 'big' player. If the game was completely RNG'ed, the list isn't very useful. Still, as the game goes on, and people keep dying on this list and flipping town, look at the ones who are left, since it's more likely they're scum. So, by posting this, I'm telling mafia they can either shoot into vets and have their own member stick out more, or they can leave them be and let them (hopefully) kill the scum with analysis.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 18 2012 18:56 GMT

#1316

On March 19 2012 03:24 EchelonTee wrote:
@wiggles i wouldn't initially say anything against ur list (except for the fact that it is a list and lists suxxors), but i don't like how u presume that decon is town. he's leaning on the scummy side of things for me; is there any reason that he looks better than the other people on your list?

We've talked quite a bit in PMs, and based on that, I have a town-read. As well, he claimed his role to me of his own volition, and confirmed it. Then after talking, he used last night on Palmar to check if he was actually masoned to Mattchew and Curu. If Caller flips scum, we have confirmation that scum have other roles, but I don't think they'd have Decon check Palmar just to shoot him right after. Also, I don't see why they'd claim and make their info public.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 18 2012 22:00 GMT

#1329

On March 19 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote:
∵ all scum sleep during the night
∵ you sleep during the night
∴ you are scum

it's a calista

Actually scum are awake at night, and it's the townies who go to bed. :p

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 19 2012 01:27 GMT

#1353

I forgot to vote. T.T

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 19 2012 20:41 GMT

#1405

On March 20 2012 03:56 prplhz wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's not far fetched to think that medic/jailer protected and scum hit Palmar now is it? And then when he didn't die they just had Caller shoot him in the face.

deconduo claimed to have checked Palmar night2 for this result. I don't think he claimed anything for night1.

Overall, deconduo is looking really bad and he was also on Palmar's shortlist.

@Mr. Wiggles What did you talk to Palmar about?

I didn't talk to him about anything, as he never tried to establish any contact besides asking for my role. I sent a few pokes at him, but he never showed interest in talking back. It's one of the reason I thought he could be scum. Pandain originally PMed me to send me love notes and claim scum.

From: Pandain [ 4313 posts | Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: Re: ♥ u
Date: 3/13/12 07:03
yeah i just don't have the time to adequetelyi devote to this the time it deserves
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
<3

I read you're being replaced, though.

Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Pandain:
this is why i pm you lol
so i can share with you my love

To: Pandain [ Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: Re: hi i pm you
Date: 3/12/12 09:25
Yeah, and I bet you thought you were going to get away with it too. At first, I was puzzled, maybe even a little lost. I wasn't sure what to make of you, but as soon as you claimed scum to me, things started to become clearer. It all made sense! You said you were scum, so in no time at all, I was able to deduce once and for all... that you were scum. CASE CLOSED. No scum escape, when Mr. Wiggles is on the case!

Original Message From Pandain:
fuck

Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
=O Well I guess I'll have to lynch you!

Original Message From Pandain:
yes

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Ok, cool. You scum?

Original Message From Pandain:
I want to pm people who I like/have fun conversations with.

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Well, I hope you feel better soon, then. Why'd you decide to PM me, if you haven't really read through the thread?

Original Message From Pandain:
havne't read everything yet(feel sick).

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Hi! What do you think of the game, so far?

Original Message From Pandain:
hihi

Decon claimed that he checked me night 1, and claimed his results to me in PM. He knew all the people who had PMed me, and who I had PMed. Unless all those people were scum, or spread the word around, there's no way he would have known that, so his role is confirmed.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 19 2012 22:51 GMT

#1411

On March 20 2012 07:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bill Murray is an aggressive player who likes to fuck around in PMs or what not. His silence this whole game suggests he's blue, not scum imo. He was like this in AC.

Let's go after the scum with substance, first. If BM is scum he will expose himself in due time. Lynch jaybrundage/deconduo/katina in no particular order. PM detective is a role that benefits scum more than town imo. Scum use the power after someone says "a DT claimed to me" or something like that for blue snipes.

Why do you think Decon is scum, besides his role?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 20 2012 04:16 GMT

#1425

On March 20 2012 12:00 EchelonTee wrote:
My 2 main mafia suspects have been posting in quite a different manner, but the common thread between them is their apathy. There have been a number of lurkers in the game, but these two in particular have tried in different ways to remain under the radar and not stick their necks out, while town shouts at itself into chaos.

Mr. Wiggles

I've been pming wiggles for a while and I thought he was town for a while, but the more I think about it the more I do not like him. His initial post was pretty strong and logical, but for the rest of the game he does nothing to match this. Wiggles has been in a position of knowledge (able to talk to palmar, myself, a bunch of others through pm network) and has had several days to form opinions and stuff. I hate it when people on D1 say stuff like "oh foolishness ur scum because you haven't exposed the entire scum team yet, GO TO WORK", but by D3/4, known players like Wiggles should have taken a strong stance somewhere.

wiggles has not provided any direction, only asking questions of others to appear like he is being pro-town. The only time that wiggles ever takes a stance of any type is when he posts this list, where he also randomly calls deconduo town based off of pms. I wouldn't mind this kind of post D1. On D3/N3, wiggles is essentially saying "lynch into this list and we will strike scum. but uh don't lynch me", while not giving any reasoning whatsoever.

The kicker, for me, comes from my conversation in PMs and Wiggles' stance on Palmar: Wiggles and I talked about a number of thread topics, and he always replied with a fairly consistent post length, in terms of content and depth (standard paragraph)

Why would I ask you to lynch me? I also never told you to lynch into the list right away, either. I told you that there's scum in the list, and if everyone dies in it except for a few people, then you have a scum there nearly for sure. I don't see why I'd give reasoning for not lynching myself, when I wouldn't lynch myself, and know I'm town. I kept myself on the list for everyone, but took myself and deconduo off for myself, so there's no need to justify not lynching myself, to myself.

On March 20 2012 12:08 EchelonTee wrote:
EBWOP: Guess post isn't going up yet, last paragraph from my big one should be this:

The kicker, for me, comes from my conversation in PMs and Wiggles' stance on Palmar: Wiggles and I talked about a number of thread topics, and he always replied with a fairly consistent post length, in terms of content and depth (standard paragraph). but on the topic of palmar (and mattchew), wiggles posted wayy more analysis and reasoning about why he felt palmar was suspicious, especially considering jackal's town flip.

The fact that he put a lot more on this (pm was 2.5x length), while ignoring the fact that palmar took out kurumi, and other aspects of the game in general, makes me feel that he was tryign to get me to push palmar (i had earlier said I would push palmar if jackal flipped green). It's weird that he would put a lot of effort into that push, a push made out of thread and towards a newbie, and if I had gone for it and palmar flipped green, I would take the fall for him completely.

overall wiggles don't take responsibility. yah.

I put a lot more into that PM, because the PM was mostly hypothesis that needed external confirmation. I never said that Palmar was scum, just that everyone calling him confirmed town was stupid and that I wanted to probe deeper into his reasonings and keep my eye on him. Palmar didn't take out Kurumi, Kurumi took out himself. Palmar made a super-timid wishy-washy post saying that Kurumi claimed to him, and didn't even push the lynch. I even wrote this in my PM, if you read it. If you think this was an attempt to get you to push Palmar, then I don't know what to say. I didn't say he was certain scum, I never asked you to push him in the thread, and I never even proclaimed I had decided for myself that he was scum, because I was still trying to get him to tell me why he shot Jackal. Also, there's no way you'd have been able to lynch Palmar by yourself, even if I asked you to. If I wanted to do that, I'd have had to lead the lynch myself. So, that wouldn't even be a realistic plan.

Also, when you're posting a case that has a large basis in your PM communications with someone, why wouldn't you post the relevant PMs? I think that would show a lot more, and let people form their own opinion.
+ Show Spoiler [PMs] +

To: EchelonTee [ Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: Re: TL jubjub
Date: 3/16/12 15:03
I'm not as sure about Mattchew, but I don't like everyone calling Palmar 'confirmed town'. Here's how things look to me if Palmar is scum, and why I'm trying to press for information in the thread:

Palmar mentioned that Kurumi knew there was a Dreamflower role to Curu. Curu said that scum know some roles, so he told him that, and pressed for who the person was. Palmar can't exactly hide him, because that looks way too suspicious. Instead, he reveals him in thread, setting him up for a roleclaim. This is after Kurumi was under a lot of suspicion for being the traitor as well, so it was likely he'd have gotten himself vigged. Note, that this is where people say that Palmar made a case on Kurumi, but Palmar actually didn't say anything about his alignment, and doesn't push for a lynch.

On March 15 2012 04:19 Palmar wrote:
OK this is super weird. Kurumi claims that he got the information that there is indeed a dreamflower role present in the game with his Role PM.

In addition he claims he's a dreamer, ie: gets clues every night.

What weirds me out is that I didn't get any information with the role PM, but I know this:

Show nested quote +

I'm just not sure

Instead, people pressure Kurumi about his role, and he ends up writing two fake PMs that completely kill him, due to how easy it was to see they were incredibly fake and made up. This is the actual point where Kurumi was labelled as scum by a majority of the thread, and is pushed by people like DrH. Palmar doesn't actually push for the lynch, so it's silly that people are attributing it to him.

However, in the meantime, Palmar comes out and uses his king power on Jackal. From what he wrote in the thread, he believed Jackal's claim, and was flip-flopping between people like DrH and Caller. So, to lynch Jackal like that, something must have happened. The only major thing in the thread was that Kurumi claimed, and if I remember correctly, this is before he posted the fake PMs. I want to see if he cites this as the reason for deciding to shoot Jackal, because then the claim could be seen as designed to introduce confusion, and give Palmar another reason to shoot Jackal.

Kurumi's claim, didn't actually assure his lynch, until he posted fake PMs. Now, imagine those PMs weren't obviously fake. There was already a lot of resistance to his lynch. If that obviousness wasn't in the thread, there'd have been a lot more resistance, and we probably wouldn't have lynched him. As well, we'd have people trying to crack the clues in his "dream", and wasting their time completely.

Also add in Palmar's behaviour in the thread today, which seemed much different than normal, and how he didn't push any scumreads or lynches, even before Kurumi's massive slip.

It just adds up to me still being wary of him, and not considering him 'confirmed town'. If everyone does that and he's scum, he's going to wreck the town because they'll just sheep him to mislynches like idiots.

Original Message From EchelonTee:
we can't know about flips remember. u still think palmar/mattchew are scum now?

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Yes, Palmar and Mattchew are two likely scum if Jackal flips town. For Kurumi, if he's telling the truth about his PM and flips as Dreamer, I'll be mad at the mods.

Original Message From EchelonTee:
if they both flip town, then i'm going after palmar.
if there's a hide flip my brain will explode.

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Yeah, I didn't particularly think he was dying. I'm also a bit surprised that he was super quiet all of today, but now that it's approaching the deadline he's flinging shit everywhere. I'm guessing the lynch might be hidden, and if it is, Jackal's alignment will be completely unknown to me. He could be town trying to get suspicions out there, or he could be scum who knows he's going to die and now he's making a bunch of accusations so he distracts the town when he no-flips. If he does no-flip, I'm going to watch carefully for who tries to use his reads to push something, as there's a decent likelihood they're scum.

Original Message From EchelonTee:
np. i'm of the opinion that jackal didn't lie and shouldn't have shot at night, but that he shouldn't have role claimed that role; should've been able to defend himself with his words.

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
No, I forgot about it, and have been busy. To answer your question, Jackal using his shot basically depends on personal opinion. Some people wanted him to shoot, to clear any confusion about his role, while others wanted him to hold his shot, because there's a much higher chance to hit a townie on night 1, than say, something like night 2 or 3. However, by saying he's holding his shot, he still carries confusion with him, about if he's lying or not, and that distracts some people. It's a tradeoff, and depends on if you think he's lying or not.

Original Message From EchelonTee:
why no reply? you scum/traitor?

And while I'm at it, here's the entirety of my communications with Palmar. For whatever reason, he decided to ignore me, which contributed to me thinking he was scum.
+ Show Spoiler [Skype Logs] +

[3/13/2012 4:04:45 AM] Palmar: so when you wake up
[3/13/2012 4:04:48 AM] Palmar: you just roleclaim to me
[3/13/2012 4:04:51 AM] Palmar: on your own time.
[3/13/2012 2:19:03 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm town, but I don't see how my role will help you
[3/13/2012 2:19:13 PM] Mr. Wiggles: Will you send me love notes like Pandain?
[3/13/2012 2:33:40 PM] Palmar: No sorry
[3/13/2012 2:51:20 PM] Mr. Wiggles: So what did you talk to VE about?
[3/14/2012 4:03:52 PM] Mr. Wiggles: So were you claiming scum with the Palpatine speech?
[3/14/2012 4:47:10 PM] Palmar: no
[3/14/2012 4:47:18 PM] Palmar: intentionally dumb?
[3/14/2012 4:47:20 PM] Palmar: or just...
[3/14/2012 4:47:22 PM] Palmar: derp
[3/14/2012 4:47:32 PM] Palmar: can you please be town or something
[3/14/2012 4:47:36 PM] Palmar: or at least look town
[3/14/2012 4:47:44 PM] Palmar: so I have less people to worry about
[3/14/2012 4:47:51 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm not being serious
[3/14/2012 4:48:13 PM] Palmar: I was claiming emperor btw
[3/14/2012 4:48:18 PM] Palmar: I lynch people
[3/14/2012 4:48:32 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I"m just laughing, because in the movies, Palpatine was supposed to come in and save the day, and ended up really being a sith lord, so that you do the same thing would be hilarious if you were scum
[3/14/2012 4:48:43 PM] Mr. Wiggles: because people wanted you to save them
[3/14/2012 4:48:55 PM] Palmar: lol
[3/14/2012 4:49:17 PM] Palmar: do you have a useful role??
[3/14/2012 4:49:20 PM] Mr. Wiggles: also pandain 'claimed' scum to me, which made it personally funnier
[3/14/2012 4:49:24 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm a VT
[3/14/2012 4:49:28 PM] Palmar: kk
[3/14/2012 4:49:34 PM] Palmar: who do you want to lynch?
[3/14/2012 4:50:26 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm trying to decide if mattchew is scum or being useless, and kurumi looks like he's most likely lying about his role
[3/16/2012 4:29:36 AM] Palmar: ok
[3/16/2012 4:29:39 AM] Palmar: now that I'm confirmed town
[3/16/2012 4:29:44 AM] Palmar: you need to claim to me.
[3/16/2012 7:56:07 AM] Palmar: hey
[3/16/2012 7:56:10 AM] Palmar: why you mean to me in thread
[3/16/2012 7:56:12 AM] Palmar: is it because I killed your friend?
[3/16/2012 8:02:27 AM] Mr. Wiggles: how's that mean?
[3/16/2012 8:02:32 AM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm jsut asking a question
[3/16/2012 8:02:55 AM] Mr. Wiggles: anyways, I'm off to school, you should answer it
[3/16/2012 8:03:09 AM] Palmar: nah
[3/16/2012 8:03:10 AM] Palmar: I don't wanna

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 20 2012 06:07 GMT

#1427

I think that we need to lynch into the lurker list today. I disagree with Dr. H when he says that people like Bill Murray will reveal themselves as time goes on, and that we should lynch more active people with better posting history, since these people with no posts or anything to look at will continue to act as they have been. Thus, we will only serve in killing off people who are analyzable, while leaving us with having to guess which lurker that looks very similar to the others is scum, come late-game. I actually believe the contrary, that it is the people who already have substance who will reveal themselves, since the town among them should want to actually win, and then should put in some effort into the game.

I think Bill Murray is someone we can't let live into the late-game. He's had a complete non-presence in the thread, which could be attributed to being active in PMs, but based on the claims in the thread, he's only talked to layabout, and not for long, either. I don't think he's blue, like Dr. H says, and if he is and has some sort of results, he should probably speak up, but again, I don't think he has anything. Instead, he's only been throwing around reads, but those aren't worth anything with no reasoning behind them, and no thread-presence to back them up. The fact that Dr. H seems to want to let him lurk also puts me a bit on edge about him, and if he flips red, could draw a link between them.

Abenson is also someone who should be killed. He's not even playing the game, and just coasting along. If he stays alive until late-game, the outcome will basically become a coin-flip. The fact that he also acquiesces constantly to popular opinion makes him look even worse. This one's a little border-line for how scummy he is, as it's hard to tell scummy inactives from town inactives.

The best thing to do with either of them, would be to put actual lynch pressure on them, and see how they react. Not make little cases that don't amount to anything, but seriously threaten them with the lynch until they can satisfy us that they're actually town.

##Vote: Bill Murray

These reads are just going through initially. There's other people who are lurking, but I don't have the time to look at them yet. If you want, I can PM you and we can talk about the game tomorrow.

Decon, who did you check last night?

Also, EchelonTee, what do you think of Curu agreeing with your case?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 20 2012 15:34 GMT

#1456

On March 20 2012 23:37 Mattchew wrote:

Show nested quote +

Bill Murray was checked and cleared
Caller and Kurumi Flipped scum
Palmar, jitsu and gumshoe flipped town
Decon and Curu IMO have improved dramatically
Prp and Jackal are dead

This leaves what should be our next 3 lynches barring unforseen changes

Mr. Wiggles needs to die because he doesn't seem to care about how this game is going, just popping by to drop stupid posts every once in a while.
Abenson needs to die for lurking.
DrH needs to die for not wanting jackal to shoot and being in general pretty complacent with how badly the game is going

do not forget the dead

Your reasoning is terrible. You take a list posted by Palmar, where if you're telling the truth, has 2 townies on it who flipped and another who is checked, and two scum, and say that we should lynch everyone on the list? How about I list 10 people in the game, I'm sure I'd hit scum too. Appealing to authority like that shows you don't actually have a basis for lynching me, or at least not one of your own, so you have to regurgitate what Palmar has said.

Here's a question for you.

On March 17 2012 13:50 Mattchew wrote:
i dont know who he checked last night he was gonna tell me close to deadline but wasnt around... and then was shot by some jubjub before he got back

You say that you weren't on your computer that had Skype on it, but then you don't say you didn't have access to your Skype, you say: Palmar wasn't around. How would you know Palmar wasn't around if you didn't have access to Skype in the first place? Your stories contradict each other.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 20 2012 21:21 GMT

#1490

On March 21 2012 05:02 Curu wrote:
Because they don't -want- to kill him but they want to be able to claim Town cred when he flips. That's why they soft bus. They had to know with day shooting Townies Caller would bite the bullet sooner or later but they don't want to instigate it happening.

It looks like Wiggles put a lot of effort/thought into it but never ever made a real push for Caller in the thread at any time. Do you understand where I'm going? He says he is suspicious of Caller but never once acts like he actually wanted Caller to be lynched until it was painfully obvious he was scum.

Hey, if you look, I'm not one of the idiots running around screaming that I'm confirmed town. I haven't tried to claim any 'cred' for the Caller lynch. Next, Caller was my day 1 vote. He was inconsistent and contradictory, and would have been a much better choice for the lynch, if everyone wasn't so worried about whether Jackal's role was real or not. Day 2, it was revealed he was a day vig, so I decided to hold back. There's no reason for me to push him, especially after Kurumi made it completely obvious he was scum, and I thought that because he was a day vig, there was the chance he was town. Day 3, it was obvious he was scum. So, to say I never acted like I wanted to lynch Caller, is a lie. He was my choice for day 1, and my PMs reflect this.

Also, Curu, I don't know why you're so bent-over about a role-claim. I'm a Townie, but I would claim the same thing to you in private no matter what I am, because you aren't confirmed until you flip. The fact you keep claiming so and pushing for roleclaims just makes you look arrogant or scum to me.

Abenson has just masoned me.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 20 2012 21:37 GMT

#1493

On March 21 2012 06:28 Curu wrote:
So why have you not Masoned anyone?

And why Bill Murray? What about Abenson or Katina?

I haven't masoned anyone, because a bunch of people masoned me, so I figured I could save them for later in the game if I wanted to. After everyone claimed their contacts though, everyone talking to me went silent, for whatever reason. I don't see how that would reflect on my alignment at all.

If you're talking about the lynch, I said Bill Murray, because he's the most dangerous of the lurkers, and because Dr. H drew a link between them. If you look at my post, it's not a "Let's kill this person and ignore the others" kind of thing, it's meant to go systematically through the people and actually threaten them with the lynch to see how they react. If we still think they're scum, we follow through. That's basically what's happening to abenson right now. He's actually being threatened with the lynch, and if he can't do anything to stop that, he will be killed. I wanted to start with Bill Murray though, instead of abenson. Notice how I called him out, and then he suddenly jumps into the thread, OMGUS's, and promises future analysis which he has yet to deliver on. That show's he's actively lurking, not just inactive, and he wants to acquiesce the town. Also, now that we've seen mafia can have a role like day-vig, can't BM acting 'like a blue' also be interpreted as being a mafia power role?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 20 2012 21:55 GMT

#1496

On March 21 2012 06:42 Curu wrote:
And the Town check on him? Did you just conveniently forget about that?

I have a real hard time believing you didn't think your Masons were worth using especially with sandroba entering the game. Waiting for an opportunity of what? You refused to talk to me and I'm more confirmed Town than Palmar.

Yes, I did forget about that, if it's even real. We don't know if the check is real or not until Matt flips town, and it doesn't mean anything because:

Cover: Cost .5KP makes a player appear as townie 1 night cycle.

Or did you just conveniently forget about that? Even if the check was real, and Matt is town and telling the truth, he could still have been covered. We have no confirmation if mafia have recruited the traitor or not, so we can't do the KP math. Also, no one has claimed RB yet, which means scum have been using their 'free' power on Checks, Frames, or Covers. Covers are a lot stronger than Frames for scum who are playing defensively, so that really narrows it down to Checks and Covers.

I didn't say I didn't think my masons were worth using, I said I wanted to save them. Still, there's not as much use to them now, unless I want to do something specific, since most people will claim them in thread. I still don't see how that reflects on my alignment. If you want to explain it to me, go ahead. . Also, not masoning you is not the same as refusing to talk to you. What do you want to talk about so badly that we can't say it here? And, I never considered Palmar confirmed town until he flipped, so throwing that word around means nothing to me.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 22:30 GMT

#1546

On March 22 2012 07:17 Abenson wrote:
Can I still attempt to defend myself?
I went and checked the voting thread after my last post and saw that there was 7 votes for me.
So I just assumed that I am effectively dead and out of the game and should not be allowed to post anymore.

You're allowed to defend yourself until you die. The deadline's not until four and a half hours from now.

Also, I'm voting for you now.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 23 2012 03:27 GMT

#1584

Did Caller claim both of his picks, or only Sentinel? Also, I think scum might have been PMing people fishing for the traitor, just look at Caller and Sentinel.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 24 2012 06:17 GMT

#1608

Deconduo, what do you actually think of Dr. H's behaviour?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 24 2012 18:10 GMT

#1610

I haven't lived to the late game in forever, it feels like. What are we supposed to be doing right now? It seems like we've ground to a halt, and that's probably not a good sign.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 24 2012 22:50 GMT

#1618

On March 25 2012 07:07 EchelonTee wrote:
Wat? in thread sandroba was way more on wiggles than drh, and how could mafia know what sandroba was saying in pms, to judge it on? He was only pming curu and palmar, did you just wildly scum slip? Voting based off "oh I was on wrong track i'm going to vote in a way that keeps me unaccountable" is rly dam suspicious curu.

No one has any rebuttal to the wiggles case. Several people have agreed that wiggles usually isn't this disinterested. Wiggles even says its weird for him to reach late game. Why the hell is no one voting him of everyone is suspicious and there its little backing him?

the only other cases presented are a meta filed case on drh which is just saying "oh you didn't tell usall your opinions and explain with an essay all of your thoughts, so your scum". Not only has no one explicitly explained their every LSAT idea, this would be detrimental as it would clutter thread. The other one is a very loose case on deconduo thatdoesn't explain anything.

Voting wiggles. I've made a case, half of the dead people were suspicious of him, we shouldn't let this slip away.

From phone might be typos. I'll be back before deadline, everyone please consider the cases put forth and make a sensible vote.

What does that have to do with anything? I actually think I haven't been shot because my reads are off, and I'm being pushed as scum in the thread. Instead, the people calling me scum were shot, and now you're in here trying to use them to push my lynch. Why are you acting so desperate?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 25 2012 00:15 GMT

#1623

I'm trying to figure out if Decon's info actually means anything, and if he thinks Dr. H's behaviour matches what he's saying. He doesn't post though, so I can't learn anything about it. I think one of you or EchelonTee are scum, because scum wouldn't not PM me, especially if they aren't planning on shooting me. I'm leaning towards EchelonTee because of the fact that he never shared anything substantial in PM while constantly asking me what I thought, and then asking about Palmar and Matt. I told him I thought they could still be scum, and then I don't die, they do, and he tries to use that to push a mislynch on me. So what if I spent more time in PMs than spamming up the thread? I didn't need to scumhunt in the thread, because there were obvious scum in it, so I could instead spend my time trying to collect information. Lynching me is dumb. I'm voting EchelonTee. If people still care about the game, they can try to convince me otherwise.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 25 2012 02:16 GMT

#1632

Lynch me, and when I flip, lynch EchelonTee, and whichever or Curu/Dr. H/decon is his scumbuddy.

+ Show Spoiler [Me and Layabout] +

[13/03/2012 10:00:00 AM] No name: it's layabout
[13/03/2012 4:00:23 PM] Jesse Huard: Jesse Huard has shared contact details with No name.
[13/03/2012 4:00:49 PM] No name: hello
[13/03/2012 4:01:03 PM] Jesse Huard: hey
[13/03/2012 4:01:30 PM] No name: any scumreads? i am stumped
[13/03/2012 4:02:00 PM] Jesse Huard: I"m debating about prpl/caller
[13/03/2012 4:02:13 PM] Jesse Huard: and then node/decon are afk, which is always scummy of them
[13/03/2012 4:02:29 PM] No name: has decon done anything?
[13/03/2012 4:02:41 PM] No name: other than tell me that sometimes its okay to kill town
[13/03/2012 4:02:57 PM] Jesse Huard: he voted for caller in the thread, and not the voting one
[13/03/2012 4:03:45 PM] No name: i thought caller looked likely town
[13/03/2012 4:04:12 PM] Jesse Huard: for what reasons?
[13/03/2012 4:04:17 PM] No name: but i am unsure why people feel he looks scummy
[13/03/2012 4:04:24 PM] No name: towards the start
[13/03/2012 4:04:34 PM] No name: he was trying to direct discussion towards the lynch
[13/03/2012 4:04:46 PM] No name: the DocH thing was a bit strange
[13/03/2012 4:05:12 PM] No name: but given that "Kaller game" is named after him i expected him to do something weird
[13/03/2012 4:05:50 PM] No name: though i would to skim some of his old games before making that kind a meta judgement
[13/03/2012 4:06:21 PM] Jesse Huard: Well, what looks weird to me, isn't really that he made a case on Jackal, or the weird DrH accusation, but more what happened afterwards
[13/03/2012 4:06:38 PM] No name: he went quiet?
[13/03/2012 4:06:42 PM] Jesse Huard: Instead of actually pushing for the jackal lynch, he spent all his time calling VE scum
[13/03/2012 4:06:58 PM] Jesse Huard: and saying that if jackal flips town, we lynch VE the next day
[13/03/2012 4:07:11 PM] No name: without a good reason for saying so
[13/03/2012 4:07:21 PM] Jesse Huard: Why wouldn't you try to ensure your first suspect is actually lynched?
[13/03/2012 4:07:49 PM] Jesse Huard: Then, why do you reveal the stuff about VE, when it would be much more powerful all at once, and if it depends on the flip, after you see the flip
[13/03/2012 4:08:33 PM] Jesse Huard: Also, the stuff he says, is pretty contradictory
[13/03/2012 4:09:05 PM] Jesse Huard: He calls VE out for what he sees as trying to set himself up to look good no matter what the flip is, while he does the same thing himself
[13/03/2012 4:09:33 PM] Jesse Huard: also, it's kind've weird, because if he was mafia, he should know what the flip is, so I don't get what he's saying, in a way
[13/03/2012 4:09:56 PM] Jesse Huard: if VE was mafia, he should know what the flip is, so why would he set himself up to look good both ways, according to caller*
[13/03/2012 4:11:29 PM] No name: plus the "thank you prplhz stuff" read like nonsense
[13/03/2012 4:12:01 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah, I can't tell yet, whether he's actually scum, or just throwing crap around, though
[13/03/2012 4:13:58 PM] No name: It's seems a little odd
[13/03/2012 4:14:43 PM] No name: that most of his accusations against Jackal were based upon him criticising his own bad reasoning and suggesting "a plan"
[13/03/2012 4:15:44 PM] No name: when Jackal probably is the role he claimed and he managed to start a discussion that was not all that bad
[13/03/2012 4:16:09 PM] No name: and i think that was all he intended to do when he said we should announce PM's
[13/03/2012 4:16:54 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[13/03/2012 4:16:59 PM] Jesse Huard: Also, the idea had some merits
[13/03/2012 4:17:38 PM] Jesse Huard: Well, I'm going to go do some homework, now, I'll be back later. If you want to write stuff to me, I'll read it when I get back
[13/03/2012 4:17:48 PM] No name: cool
[13/03/2012 4:21:05 PM] No name: Now in my experience "scumslips" are not very common so when caller says he found one in this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13896263 , i think that he is trying to make people doubt VE whilst making himself look useful
[13/03/2012 4:22:57 PM] No name: In spite of all of the accusations leveled against Jitsu and in spite of my argument with him i believe he has town's interest in mind when he is posting
[13/03/2012 4:24:00 PM] No name: his vote for prp is terrible
[13/03/2012 4:25:17 PM] No name: I am in contact with Bill Murray,we have not said much due to crappy timezones
[13/03/2012 4:31:33 PM] No name: Jaybrundage: when i read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13887349 i thought like Jay showed that his actions make more sense from a town persctive than scum one
[13/03/2012 4:34:16 PM] No name: i do not see why mafia would defend themself by saying that basically all they have done so far had been to fish for reactions
[13/03/2012 4:36:35 PM] No name: when he says " I say i do agree with lynching liars and Lurkers. However i suggest we use them as guidelines. " i he is making a mute point, that he did not need to make in the first place and that he didn't need to emphasise
[13/03/2012 4:37:01 PM] No name: I also think its strange that Jaybrundage says he thinks Kurumi would be the traitor, since I find it very difficult to figure out Kurumi's motivations for posting and he is not always serious.
[13/03/2012 4:37:35 PM] No name: I do not see why you would be speculating about the traitor like that as town
[13/03/2012 4:39:22 PM] No name: So Wiggles, when you are looking for scum do you differentiate between scum and traitors? and if you think a player is one of the two and you want to lynch them, wouldn't you call them scum rather than traitor as that is more likely to sway people to lynch them?
[13/03/2012 8:20:05 PM] Jesse Huard: When I look for scum, the first thing I do is just look for them acting scummily. If it's a game with multiple factions, i.e. 2 mafia families, sk and mafia, mafia and traitors, I might try to differentiate between them, especially if my read relies on associative tells
[13/03/2012 8:20:59 PM] Jesse Huard: If I had a choice between scum and traitor, and if the traitor wasn't called out as a traitor, I'd lynch the scum. Th e thing is, you can't be 100% sure, so if you think they're scum, you lynch them no matter if they might be traitor or normal mafia
[13/03/2012 8:21:50 PM] Jesse Huard: I'd probably just call them scum, but I think that's more of a personal choice, as people don't always follow optimal play, and it might just be an oversight
[13/03/2012 8:22:25 PM] Jesse Huard: personally, if I was the traitor, it seems pretty hard to actually get added to the scum team, so what I'd do instead, is just try to cause as much chaos in the town as I could
[13/03/2012 8:23:23 PM] Jesse Huard: this doesn't neccessarily mean act like Kurumi is, but it could be something like push a bunch of cases I know are wrong, to waste town's time, and push bad cases, or oppose things, and make stuff difficult. Basically, act as anti-town as I could, while passing it off as bad play, and avoid the lynch

+ Show Spoiler [Me and Decon] +

[13/03/2012 8:19:04 PM] Jesse Huard: I am Mr. Wiggles!
[14/03/2012 6:56:16 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Oisín De Condúin has shared contact details with Jesse Huard.
[14/03/2012 6:56:23 AM] Oisín De Condúin: sup
[14/03/2012 7:57:34 AM] Jesse Huard: so who do you want to lynch, today?
[14/03/2012 7:57:55 AM] Oisín De Condúin: hey

[14/03/2012 7:58:07 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm not too sure tbh
[14/03/2012 7:58:14 AM] Oisín De Condúin: porbably jackal
[14/03/2012 7:58:27 AM] Oisín De Condúin: there's too many things about his play that don't add up
[14/03/2012 7:58:35 AM] Oisín De Condúin: the only thing I'm aprehensive about
[14/03/2012 7:58:46 AM] Oisín De Condúin: is the fact that 3 people posted a case against him within20 min
[14/03/2012 7:58:47 AM] Oisín De Condúin:

[14/03/2012 7:59:00 AM] Jesse Huard: yeah, haha
[14/03/2012 7:59:10 AM] Jesse Huard: What do you think of palmar claiming scum in the thread?
[14/03/2012 7:59:19 AM] Oisín De Condúin: what>
[14/03/2012 7:59:28 AM] Oisín De Condúin: fuck I must have missed that
[14/03/2012 7:59:31 AM] Oisín De Condúin:

[14/03/2012 7:59:33 AM] Jesse Huard: he did the emperor Palpatine speech
[14/03/2012 7:59:38 AM] Jesse Huard: pretty sure that guy was scum
[14/03/2012 7:59:56 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I saw that
[14/03/2012 7:59:57 AM] Oisín De Condúin: and TL:DR
[14/03/2012 8:00:12 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I just assumed it was spam
[14/03/2012 8:00:23 AM] Jesse Huard: it prettymuch was
[14/03/2012 8:00:27 AM] Oisín De Condúin: hmm
[14/03/2012 8:00:38 AM] Oisín De Condúin: someone did that before, and I think it was palmar
[14/03/2012 8:00:39 AM] Oisín De Condúin:

[14/03/2012 8:00:48 AM] Oisín De Condúin: did a not so subtle brag about being scum
[14/03/2012 8:00:55 AM] Oisín De Condúin: got caught and lynched
[14/03/2012 8:01:15 AM] Jesse Huard: I just found it funny, because it was by Palpatine, who everyone thought would be a great leader on their side, but then he turned out to be a sith guy
[14/03/2012 8:01:21 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Something like the first word of each sentence spelling out 'I am scum'
[14/03/2012 8:01:31 AM] Jesse Huard: jeejee?!?!
[14/03/2012 8:01:33 AM] Oisín De Condúin: dammit, what game was that in
[14/03/2012 8:01:35 AM] Oisín De Condúin: oh yeah
[14/03/2012 8:01:42 AM] Oisín De Condúin: that was it

[14/03/2012 8:01:45 AM] Jesse Huard: then jacka 'found it'
[14/03/2012 8:01:53 AM] Jesse Huard: anyways, I'm off to school, see ya
[14/03/2012 8:01:54 AM] Oisín De Condúin: cya
[14/03/2012 8:02:30 AM] Oisín De Condúin: when you get back: What do you think of caller vigging node?
[14/03/2012 11:20:02 AM | Edited 12:07:41 PM] Oisín De Condúin: h
[14/03/2012 4:02:44 PM] Jesse Huard: I'm not sure what to think of that
[14/03/2012 4:02:59 PM] Jesse Huard: It seems like Palmar directed him there, and I"m not sure if Palmar is town or not
[14/03/2012 4:03:17 PM] Jesse Huard: his initial posting made me think he was town, but he's had a lack of follow-up in the thrad
[14/03/2012 4:03:19 PM] Jesse Huard: thread*
[14/03/2012 4:03:29 PM] Jesse Huard: though, that could be because he's chilling in PM land
[14/03/2012 4:10:41 PM] Oisín De Condúin: if node had flipped scum I would be a lot happier with Palmar
[14/03/2012 4:10:42 PM] Oisín De Condúin: now I'm not so sure
[14/03/2012 4:10:48 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[14/03/2012 4:11:04 PM] Jesse Huard: I was going to laugh in Node flipped scum, though, it'd be a repeat of my game with BC
[14/03/2012 4:11:05 PM] Oisín De Condúin: who did you pick for your PMs btw?
[14/03/2012 4:11:22 PM] Jesse Huard: he talked to a vig, and got him to shoot Node, who was on our team, because he was being useless
[14/03/2012 4:11:28 PM] Jesse Huard: instant town cred
[14/03/2012 4:11:31 PM] Oisín De Condúin: lol
[14/03/2012 4:11:39 PM] Jesse Huard: no one yet
[14/03/2012 4:11:44 PM] Jesse Huard: how about you?
[14/03/2012 4:11:49 PM] Oisín De Condúin: you and sheth
[14/03/2012 4:11:51 PM] Oisín De Condúin:

[14/03/2012 4:11:55 PM] Oisín De Condúin: so just you now
[14/03/2012 4:12:03 PM] Jesse Huard: that sucks
[14/03/2012 4:12:04 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I dunno why mafia killed sheth
[14/03/2012 4:12:10 PM] Oisín De Condúin: he wasn't exactly a threat
[14/03/2012 4:12:15 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[14/03/2012 4:12:22 PM] Jesse Huard: maybe they had a blue read?
[14/03/2012 4:12:36 PM] Oisín De Condúin: only thing that makes sense really
[14/03/2012 4:12:45 PM] Oisín De Condúin: though I don't see how from his posts
[14/03/2012 4:13:12 PM] Jesse Huard: maybe someone's a creepy SC2 fan-stalker
[14/03/2012 4:13:15 PM] Oisín De Condúin: lol
[14/03/2012 4:13:24 PM] Jesse Huard: and they wanted to kill him, so they could say they killed sheth in mafia
[14/03/2012 4:14:09 PM] Oisín De Condúin: so anyway
[14/03/2012 4:14:14 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm a PM detective
[14/03/2012 4:14:21 PM] Jesse Huard: PM detective?
[14/03/2012 4:14:24 PM] Oisín De Condúin: yah
[14/03/2012 4:14:32 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I can pick a person each night
[14/03/2012 4:14:33 PM] Oisín De Condúin: and see who is PMing them
[14/03/2012 4:14:41 PM] Oisín De Condúin: as proof
[14/03/2012 4:14:48 PM] Jesse Huard: cool
[14/03/2012 4:14:49 PM] Oisín De Condúin: echelon, palmar, layabout and me
[14/03/2012 4:14:50 PM] Oisín De Condúin: picked you
[14/03/2012 4:14:55 PM] Oisín De Condúin: and you haven't picked anyone yet
[14/03/2012 4:14:59 PM] Jesse Huard: yep
[14/03/2012 4:15:02 PM] Oisín De Condúin: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am6awLPYDPGcdFM5VHEwYm5PaEJ4MVl3bWl0Vk9WbXc
[14/03/2012 4:15:02 PM] Jesse Huard: ok, cool
[14/03/2012 4:15:22 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I've also being plotting people's PM map
[14/03/2012 4:15:32 PM] Jesse Huard: Yeah, I'm pretty popular, lol
[14/03/2012 4:15:38 PM] Oisín De Condúin: you and palmar
[14/03/2012 4:15:45 PM] Jesse Huard: palmar hasn't talked to me though
[14/03/2012 4:15:58 PM] Oisín De Condúin: so he picked you but hasn't been talking?
[14/03/2012 4:15:59 PM] Oisín De Condúin: interesting
[14/03/2012 4:16:03 PM] Jesse Huard: Pandain Pmed me because he said he has fun talking to me, and wanted to send me love notes
[14/03/2012 4:16:07 PM] Oisín De Condúin: oh
[14/03/2012 4:16:15 PM] Oisín De Condúin: yeah I forgot he subbed out
[14/03/2012 4:16:16 PM] Jesse Huard: and then palmar hasn't talked to me since he's replaced in
[14/03/2012 4:16:28 PM] Jesse Huard: Pandain claimed scum to me, too

[14/03/2012 4:16:30 PM] Oisín De Condúin: lol
[14/03/2012 4:17:05 PM] Oisín De Condúin: anyway, once one scum flips
[14/03/2012 4:17:07 PM] Oisín De Condúin: it helps a lot
[14/03/2012 4:17:11 PM] Jesse Huard: Yeah, and I bet you thought you were going to get away with it too. At first, I was puzzled, maybe even a little lost. I wasn't sure what to make of you, but as soon as you claimed scum to me, things started to become clearer. It all made sense! You said you were scum, so in no time at all, I was able to deduce once and for all... that you were scum. CASE CLOSED. No scum escape, when Mr. Wiggles is on the case!

Original Message From Pandain:
fuck

Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
=O Well I guess I'll have to lynch you!

Original Message From Pandain:
yes

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Ok, cool. You scum?

Original Message From Pandain:
I want to pm people who I like/have fun conversations with.

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Well, I hope you feel better soon, then. Why'd you decide to PM me, if you haven't really read through the thread?

Original Message From Pandain:
havne't read everything yet(feel sick).

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Hi! What do you think of the game, so far?

Original Message From Pandain:
hihi
[14/03/2012 4:17:13 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[14/03/2012 4:17:15 PM] Oisín De Condúin: because scum aren't going to choose each other
[14/03/2012 4:17:34 PM] Jesse Huard: no, and they're probably going to spread out their picks
[14/03/2012 4:17:40 PM] Oisín De Condúin: yah
[14/03/2012 4:17:42 PM] Jesse Huard: it's how I know that between you 4, you can't all be scum
[14/03/2012 4:17:51 PM] Jesse Huard: because thay would be a waste
[14/03/2012 4:18:11 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm going to assume caller is town
[14/03/2012 4:18:18 PM] Oisín De Condúin: because mafia never get day vigs right?
[14/03/2012 4:18:25 PM] Jesse Huard: I think a couple times
[14/03/2012 4:18:27 PM] Oisín De Condúin: hmm
[14/03/2012 4:18:36 PM] Jesse Huard: I'll consider him town, but not 'confirmed
[14/03/2012 4:19:46 PM] Oisín De Condúin: Mattchew, Caller, Kurumi
[14/03/2012 4:19:50 PM] Oisín De Condúin: probably 2 are town
[14/03/2012 4:19:55 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[14/03/2012 4:20:04 PM] Oisín De Condúin: but I'd guess one might be scum as well
[14/03/2012 4:20:07 PM] Oisín De Condúin: for the same reason
[14/03/2012 4:20:08 PM] Jesse Huard: I don't think this game is as 'normal
[14/03/2012 4:20:13 PM] Jesse Huard: as it's supposed to be
[14/03/2012 4:20:22 PM] Oisín De Condúin: well I am a PM detective
[14/03/2012 4:20:28 PM] Oisín De Condúin: and you have Kurmi + Jackal's roles
[14/03/2012 4:20:36 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah, exactly
[14/03/2012 4:20:40 PM] Oisín De Condúin: so not standard medic detective vig
[14/03/2012 4:20:41 PM] Oisín De Condúin:

[14/03/2012 4:21:04 PM] Jesse Huard: If you think about it, they're all just weaker versions of the normal roles
[14/03/2012 4:21:32 PM] Jesse Huard: You get people's PMs, Jackal is a weaker vig, and kurumi is like a role cop who only gets random roles, and not who has them
[14/03/2012 4:21:57 PM] Jesse Huard: Looking at the amount of KP, and the number of scum, it makes sense that town is a little weaker, or mafia has some kind of extra roles
[14/03/2012 4:22:17 PM] Oisín De Condúin: well scum might have traded in KP
[14/03/2012 4:22:52 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah, but none of the powers in the OP are KP
[14/03/2012 4:23:26 PM] Oisín De Condúin: as in, scum might have more KP than they showed last night
[14/03/2012 4:23:44 PM] Oisín De Condúin: because they traded it in for framing/covering/rolechecking
[14/03/2012 4:23:58 PM] Oisín De Condúin: oh nvm
[14/03/2012 4:23:59 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm an idiot
[14/03/2012 4:24:05 PM] Oisín De Condúin: scum numbers are in the OP
[14/03/2012 4:24:05 PM] Jesse Huard: well, it says that scum start at 4, all all contribute .5
[14/03/2012 4:24:07 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[14/03/2012 4:24:14 PM] Oisín De Condúin: that makes a lot more sense
[14/03/2012 4:24:32 PM] Jesse Huard: Counting the traitor as part of the scum number, we get 5 mislynches without blue interference, and lynching no scum
[14/03/2012 4:24:32 PM] Oisín De Condúin: so they only have 4, that does seem underpowered
[14/03/2012 4:24:40 PM] Jesse Huard: 4 mislynches*
[14/03/2012 4:24:50 PM] Jesse Huard: and mafia at 2 K{
[14/03/2012 4:24:51 PM] Jesse Huard: KP*
[14/03/2012 4:25:22 PM] Oisín De Condúin: do you think kurumi is the traitor?
[14/03/2012 4:25:29 PM] Jesse Huard: I'm not sure
[14/03/2012 4:25:49 PM] Jesse Huard: If he is, he shouldn't know the roles
[14/03/2012 4:26:04 PM] Jesse Huard: I'm interested in when he claimed to know the dreamflower role was in the game
[14/03/2012 4:26:38 PM] Jesse Huard: As traitor, the only reason to cliam that, would be because you think that jackal is scum, and want to make sure he lives
[14/03/2012 4:27:08 PM] Jesse Huard: he seemed like he was acting more seriously, in the PM jackal linked, than he is in the thread
[14/03/2012 4:27:57 PM] Jesse Huard: I think mattchew might be scum
[14/03/2012 4:28:36 PM] Oisín De Condúin: yeah I think so too
[14/03/2012 4:28:42 PM] Jesse Huard: he's posting stuff, but it doesn't really seem like it's coming from a town place. More like it's commentary or calling someone out without any actual substance
[14/03/2012 4:28:50 PM] Oisín De Condúin: In fact I even said it in the thread
[14/03/2012 4:28:56 PM] Oisín De Condúin: he's one of my strongest scumreads
[14/03/2012 4:29:00 PM] Jesse Huard: did you?
[14/03/2012 4:29:05 PM] Jesse Huard: I know couple people mentioned it
[14/03/2012 4:29:43 PM] Jesse Huard: ok, I see it
[14/03/2012 4:45:00 PM] Oisín De Condúin: There is no way that Ver or Incog wrote this:
[14/03/2012 4:45:00 PM] Oisín De Condúin: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316574&currentpage=44#861
[14/03/2012 4:52:43 PM] Jesse Huard: Oh my
[14/03/2012 4:52:53 PM] Jesse Huard: lol
[15/03/2012 8:01:16 AM] Oisín De Condúin: You should mason caller
[16/03/2012 7:12:55 AM] Jesse Huard: So who are you thinking of checking tonight?
[16/03/2012 7:13:20 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Not too sure
[16/03/2012 7:13:34 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Once everyone massclaims I'll have a better idea
[16/03/2012 7:13:43 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm most suspicious of Mattchew right now
[16/03/2012 7:13:54 AM] Oisín De Condúin: so probably him
[16/03/2012 7:13:56 AM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[16/03/2012 7:14:02 AM] Jesse Huard: I keep oscillating on him
[16/03/2012 7:14:02 AM] Oisín De Condúin: but again, it depends on what people came
[16/03/2012 7:14:12 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm fairly sure he hammered on Kurumi
[16/03/2012 7:14:22 AM] Oisín De Condúin: just to bus him
[16/03/2012 7:14:36 AM] Jesse Huard: Do you know how Palmar is 'confirmed'
[16/03/2012 7:14:49 AM] Oisín De Condúin: he isn't
[16/03/2012 7:14:50 AM] Oisín De Condúin: not even close
[16/03/2012 7:14:56 AM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[16/03/2012 7:14:59 AM] Oisín De Condúin: he's lynched two townies
[16/03/2012 7:15:14 AM] Oisín De Condúin: and claimed to VE that he's a DT
[16/03/2012 7:15:38 AM] Jesse Huard: Cause, people keep saying he made the case on Kurumi, when the post he made is super wishy-washy, and he ends it with "I'm not sure", doesn't even call kurumi scum in it
[16/03/2012 7:15:50 AM] Jesse Huard: Kurumi killed himself with the obviously fake PMs
[16/03/2012 7:16:00 AM] Oisín De Condúin: yah
[16/03/2012 7:16:06 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Kurumi was an idiot
[16/03/2012 7:16:20 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I wouldn't be surprised
[16/03/2012 7:16:20 AM] Jesse Huard: Then, I want to see if Palmar uses Kurumi as his excuse to shoot jackal
[16/03/2012 7:16:25 AM] Oisín De Condúin: if Curu Palmar Mattchew
[16/03/2012 7:16:27 AM] Oisín De Condúin: is scumteam
[16/03/2012 7:16:29 AM] Jesse Huard: because he didn't say why he shot him
[16/03/2012 7:16:44 AM] Jesse Huard: town is gonna sheep them hardcore
[16/03/2012 7:17:09 AM] Oisín De Condúin: and all three are pushing Katina
[16/03/2012 7:17:16 AM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[16/03/2012 7:17:36 AM] Jesse Huard: I think the kills tonight will be some combination of me/caller/drh, and some lurkers
[16/03/2012 7:17:45 AM] Oisín De Condúin: yup
[16/03/2012 7:17:54 AM] Jesse Huard: that also explains why the lynch wasn't concealed
[16/03/2012 7:18:09 AM] Jesse Huard: they want the towncred for kurumi
[16/03/2012 7:18:20 AM] Jesse Huard: concealing that lynch, would have completely screwed town
[16/03/2012 7:18:42 AM] Jesse Huard: because we have no idea if two people were scum or town who people were pretty split on
[16/03/2012 7:20:17 AM] Oisín De Condúin: yep
[16/03/2012 7:20:23 AM] Oisín De Condúin: all three are pushing the same sort of case
[16/03/2012 7:20:27 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Palmar is confirmed town
[16/03/2012 7:20:33 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Katina is scum
[16/03/2012 7:20:39 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Only look at the people that didn't vote for Kurumi
[16/03/2012 7:20:49 AM] Jesse Huard: mattchew is confirmed town
[16/03/2012 7:21:12 AM] Jesse Huard: I always really hated that argument
[16/03/2012 7:21:24 AM] Jesse Huard: "If I was scum, would I really do something like that?"
[16/03/2012 7:21:58 AM] Oisín De Condúin: complete WIFOM
[16/03/2012 7:22:20 AM] Oisín De Condúin: the other thing is
[16/03/2012 7:22:31 AM] Oisín De Condúin: that both Mattchew and Curu claim to have masoned Palmar
[16/03/2012 7:22:39 AM] Oisín De Condúin: so its possible that Palmar is town
[16/03/2012 7:22:44 AM] Oisín De Condúin: but is being led by those two
[16/03/2012 7:22:49 AM] Jesse Huard: hmmm
[16/03/2012 7:22:53 AM | Edited 7:23:05 AM] Oisín De Condúin: and doesn't realise his town circle is scum
[16/03/2012 7:23:03 AM] Jesse Huard: lol
[16/03/2012 7:23:13 AM] Jesse Huard: Palmar just asked me to claim to him because he's confirmed town
[16/03/2012 7:23:21 AM] Jesse Huard: already told him I'm VT
[16/03/2012 7:23:29 AM] Oisín De Condúin: hey
[16/03/2012 7:23:34 AM] Oisín De Condúin: what was your PM like actually
[16/03/2012 7:23:43 AM] Oisín De Condúin: cos mine didn't actually say I was town
[16/03/2012 7:23:45 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I just assumed it
[16/03/2012 7:24:14 AM] Jesse Huard: well, it's green and says Townie
[16/03/2012 7:24:15 AM] Oisín De Condúin: hmm
[16/03/2012 7:24:22 AM] Jesse Huard: and my win-con is in it
[16/03/2012 7:24:30 AM] Oisín De Condúin: mine has no coloured text
[16/03/2012 7:24:33 AM] Oisín De Condúin: no win con
[16/03/2012 7:24:39 AM] Oisín De Condúin: just
[16/03/2012 7:24:44 AM] Jesse Huard: probably the hosts
[16/03/2012 7:24:56 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Role
Role description
[16/03/2012 7:25:12 AM] Jesse Huard: could be the hosts, doing it to screw with the jubjubs
[16/03/2012 7:25:17 AM] Oisín De Condúin: maybe
[16/03/2012 7:25:24 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I'd laugh if I was traitor
[16/03/2012 7:25:25 AM] Jesse Huard: Same thing happened in Sleeper Cell and Responsibility
[16/03/2012 7:25:26 AM] Oisín De Condúin: lol
[16/03/2012 7:25:36 AM] Jesse Huard: lol
[16/03/2012 7:25:43 AM] Oisín De Condúin: though I don't think traitor has a PR
[16/03/2012 7:26:42 AM] Oisín De Condúin: have you used your mason picks yet?
[16/03/2012 7:26:47 AM] Jesse Huard: responsibility had two roles named differently that did the same thing, and sleeper cell had everyone's role PMs formatted the exact same except for the bullet-proof townies, whose PM was completely different
[16/03/2012 7:26:53 AM] Jesse Huard: no, I'm going to wait for the next day
[16/03/2012 7:27:05 AM] Jesse Huard: maybe do DrH/Caller, depending on who's alive
[16/03/2012 7:27:16 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Caller I'm fairly sure is town
[16/03/2012 7:27:20 AM] Oisín De Condúin: but will be dead
[16/03/2012 7:27:23 AM] Jesse Huard: mhmm
[16/03/2012 7:27:27 AM] Oisín De Condúin: Dr. H I'm less certain
[16/03/2012 7:27:33 AM] Oisín De Condúin: but he's definitely leaning town
[16/03/2012 7:27:56 AM] Jesse Huard: do you think scum would have killed a kingmaker or try to influence him?
[16/03/2012 7:28:08 AM] Oisín De Condúin: hell yeah
[16/03/2012 7:28:10 AM] Oisín De Condúin: well
[16/03/2012 7:28:28 AM] Oisín De Condúin: assume Palmar is telling the truth
[16/03/2012 7:28:33 AM] Oisín De Condúin: and VE made him kingmaker
[16/03/2012 7:28:51 AM] Oisín De Condúin: then if Palmar is town and there's scum in his circle
[16/03/2012 7:28:56 AM] Oisín De Condúin: they would definitely take out VE
[16/03/2012 7:29:00 AM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[16/03/2012 7:29:14 AM] Oisín De Condúin: if Palmar is scum, but VE trusted him enough to make him king
[16/03/2012 7:29:26 AM] Oisín De Condúin: taking him out that early seems a bit premature
[16/03/2012 7:29:40 AM] Oisín De Condúin: but still plausible
[16/03/2012 7:29:49 AM] Jesse Huard: yeah, so that's probably a point in Palmar's favour, but nothing confirming
[16/03/2012 7:29:52 AM] Oisín De Condúin: especially if Palmar lynched a town, he could lose trust
[16/03/2012 7:29:56 AM] Jesse Huard: mhmm
[16/03/2012 7:30:04 AM] Jesse Huard: but he could get VE to sheep his picks
[16/03/2012 7:30:11 AM] Jesse Huard: "Pick mattchew, he's confirmed"
[16/03/2012 7:30:17 AM] Oisín De Condúin: yah
[16/03/2012 7:30:34 AM] Oisín De Condúin: but don't forget this was night one
[16/03/2012 7:30:52 AM] Oisín De Condúin: if I was scum I'd probably want to take out VE quickly
[16/03/2012 7:31:00 AM] Oisín De Condúin: as kingmaker is such a powerful role
[16/03/2012 7:31:11 AM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[16/03/2012 7:31:26 AM] Jesse Huard: if he figured out you were scum, he could king someone else and it's basically an unblockable vig shot
[16/03/2012 7:31:41 AM] Oisín De Condúin: yep
[16/03/2012 7:31:42 AM] Oisín De Condúin: also I'm pretty sure Palmar lied at one point
[16/03/2012 7:31:47 AM] Oisín De Condúin: when he said he HAD to lynch someone
[16/03/2012 7:32:01 AM] Oisín De Condúin: that's generally not part of the kingmaker role AFAIK
[16/03/2012 7:32:18 AM] Oisín De Condúin: being forced to lynch seems a bit off
[16/03/2012 7:32:36 AM] Jesse Huard: well
[16/03/2012 7:32:39 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I think he just wanted an excuse to take out Jackal before Jackal shot scum
[16/03/2012 7:32:44 AM] Jesse Huard: You are the Kingmaker, the power behind the throne. Every night you must send me a Private Message with a list of names to be made king. The highest person on the list not to be killed will be made king. The King will not be informed of who you are. You also can not choose any player you already made King unless you cannot fulfill your role otherwise (i,e only a few people are left whom you've all made king). You can't nominate yourself to be King either under any circumstances. The King is essentially a day vigilante who must type ##lynch player at some point during the day to kill someone. If the king's vote is bought by the politician, the politician also controls the king's lynch. Power behind the throne, neh?
[16/03/2012 7:32:47 AM] Jesse Huard: from PYP
[16/03/2012 7:32:54 AM] Jesse Huard: is you have to
[16/03/2012 7:32:58 AM] Oisín De Condúin: oh fair enough
[16/03/2012 7:33:02 AM] Oisín De Condúin: nevermind then
[16/03/2012 7:33:38 AM] Oisín De Condúin: I;ve got to go
[16/03/2012 7:33:41 AM] Oisín De Condúin: back in an hour or so
[16/03/2012 7:33:42 AM] Jesse Huard: ok, see ya
[16/03/2012 7:33:46 AM] Jesse Huard: I'll be at school
[16/03/2012 8:26:34 AM | Edited 8:26:40 AM] Oisín De Condúin: h
[16/03/2012 3:06:32 PM] Jesse Huard: h?
[16/03/2012 3:09:09 PM] Jesse Huard: I would say checking someone from the mattchew/curu/palmar circlejerk could be good, as it could find 2-3 scum, or prove that they are at least not lying about PMing each other, which makes them a lot less likely to all be scum
[16/03/2012 3:09:49 PM] Jesse Huard: I don't think most people would think there'd be a PM dt unless that was one of the roles they were told, and then they'd have to be smart enough to actually use their PMs on eachother
[16/03/2012 3:30:36 PM] Oisín De Condúin: yeah
[16/03/2012 3:30:44 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I noticed Mattchew has changed his tune though
[16/03/2012 3:30:55 PM] Jesse Huard: in what way?
[16/03/2012 3:30:58 PM] Jesse Huard: about katina?
[16/03/2012 3:31:12 PM] Oisín De Condúin: about a lot of things
[16/03/2012 3:31:12 PM] Oisín De Condúin: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316574&currentpage=60#1196
[16/03/2012 3:31:24 PM] Oisín De Condúin:
No you don't get credit for the kurumi lynch

No you cant just call everyone not voting kurumi scum

No Katina is probably not scum cause she is genuine

Yes Katina is a super easy target for scum to go after
[16/03/2012 3:31:36 PM] Oisín De Condúin: so now I dunno wtf to think about him
[16/03/2012 3:35:25 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah, he's been like that for me the whole game, almost
[16/03/2012 3:35:32 PM] Jesse Huard: I keep swinging between scum and not scum
[16/03/2012 3:35:36 PM] Jesse Huard: same with prplhz
[20/03/2012 4:31:18 PM] Jesse Huard: So who did you check?
[20/03/2012 4:31:36 PM] Oisín De Condúin: katina
[20/03/2012 4:31:41 PM] Jesse Huard: oh yeah
[20/03/2012 4:31:45 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I posted it back a bit
[20/03/2012 4:31:50 PM] Oisín De Condúin: so who are the last scum
[20/03/2012 4:33:21 PM] Jesse Huard: I think BM is prolly scum, but people are saying that because a DT checked him, he's confirmed town
[20/03/2012 4:33:32 PM] Jesse Huard: I think he prolly just got covered
[20/03/2012 4:33:52 PM] Jesse Huard: I could be wrong, but he's acting really scummy
[20/03/2012 4:34:04 PM] Jesse Huard: just lurks, pops in calling someone town or scum, and leaving
[20/03/2012 4:34:18 PM] Jesse Huard: he doesn't actually push anything, though
[20/03/2012 4:34:32 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm in PMs with him, I think he's town
[20/03/2012 4:34:44 PM] Jesse Huard: Is he actually active in PMs?
[20/03/2012 4:34:53 PM] Oisín De Condúin: he's playing exactly the same way he did in Orgah
[20/03/2012 4:34:53 PM] Oisín De Condúin: yeah
[20/03/2012 4:35:15 PM] Jesse Huard: ok, because that was the other argument, but it only looked like he sent two PMs to layabout
[20/03/2012 4:35:52 PM] Jesse Huard: what do you think of Curu?
[20/03/2012 4:35:59 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm still iffy on curu
[20/03/2012 4:36:05 PM] Oisín De Condúin: he thinks he's confirmed
[20/03/2012 4:36:10 PM] Oisín De Condúin: a long with a lot of others
[20/03/2012 4:36:13 PM] Oisín De Condúin: but I'm not so sure
[20/03/2012 4:36:19 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[20/03/2012 4:36:31 PM] Jesse Huard: I hate people who call themselves confirmed, like it's an actual argument
[20/03/2012 4:36:39 PM] Oisín De Condúin: and I really hate when anyone declares themselves triple confirmed town in a closed setup
[20/03/2012 4:36:40 PM] Oisín De Condúin: yes
[20/03/2012 4:36:48 PM] Jesse Huard: it just makes them look arrogant, or scum pleading for cred
[20/03/2012 4:37:08 PM] Jesse Huard: What do you think of EchelonTee?
[20/03/2012 4:37:20 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I think he could definitely be scum
[20/03/2012 4:37:28 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I gotta go tho
[20/03/2012 4:37:32 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah, I thought he was town
[20/03/2012 4:37:32 PM] Oisín De Condúin: in a raid right now

[20/03/2012 4:37:36 PM] Oisín De Condúin: back in 15min tho
[20/03/2012 4:37:52 PM] Jesse Huard: but then he sent me a PM saying that he wanted me to step up and lead the town because he thought Curu was iffy
[20/03/2012 4:37:58 PM] Jesse Huard: I was inactive for around 24 hours
[20/03/2012 4:38:11 PM] Jesse Huard: and when I come back, he's made a case against me, and Curu is the second one on it
[20/03/2012 4:38:17 PM] Jesse Huard: ok, cya
[20/03/2012 6:04:40 PM] Oisín De Condúin: sorry
[20/03/2012 6:04:46 PM] Oisín De Condúin: that took a bit longer than I expected

[20/03/2012 6:30:28 PM] Jesse Huard: no problem
[20/03/2012 6:30:55 PM] Oisín De Condúin: I'm doing 20 things at once right now

[20/03/2012 6:31:26 PM] Oisín De Condúin: mafia game, admin on a minecraft server, leader of a wow guild, final exams in 4 weeks
[20/03/2012 6:31:32 PM] Oisín De Condúin: kind of a bit hectic lol
[20/03/2012 6:31:40 PM] Jesse Huard: haha
[20/03/2012 6:32:01 PM] Oisín De Condúin: hmm
[20/03/2012 6:32:09 PM] Oisín De Condúin: also I think Dr. H might be scum
[20/03/2012 6:34:04 PM] Oisín De Condúin: If Kurumi was the traitor, someone from the scumteam must have masoned him
[20/03/2012 6:34:17 PM] Oisín De Condúin: we know kurumi didn't mason a scum because both of his picks flipped green
[20/03/2012 6:34:27 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah
[20/03/2012 6:34:44 PM] Jesse Huard: Is your spreadsheet up to date?
[20/03/2012 6:34:53 PM] Oisín De Condúin: of all the people who have claimed, only Dr. H masoned kurumi
[20/03/2012 6:35:00 PM] Oisín De Condúin: as far as I know yeah
[20/03/2012 6:35:06 PM] Oisín De Condúin: BM hasn;t claimed his second mason
[20/03/2012 6:35:18 PM] Oisín De Condúin: curu refuses to claim
[20/03/2012 6:35:29 PM] Oisín De Condúin: abenson is just terrible
[20/03/2012 6:35:48 PM] Jesse Huard: can you see him being scum?
[20/03/2012 6:36:05 PM] Oisín De Condúin: yes
[20/03/2012 6:36:10 PM] Oisín De Condúin: but I can also see him being bad
[20/03/2012 6:36:17 PM] Oisín De Condúin: but right now, he's the best lynch option
[20/03/2012 6:36:17 PM] Jesse Huard: yeah, that's the trouble
[20/03/2012 6:36:26 PM] Jesse Huard: His recent post about my PM is really weird

+ Show Spoiler [Me and ET] +

To: EchelonTee [ Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: Re: TL jubjub
Date: 3/14/12 12:31
He's said a lot of stuff that's blatantly anti-town, like that role-fishing for PMs shouldn't set you off, or on your guard, calling himself confirmed town, and pushing the idea that if Jackal flips red, Curu and Caller are as well, and then some other things. It just sets me off, and makes him look scummy. What I have to do, is decide whether that actually means he's scum, or he's just pushing bad ideas, and actually believes them.

Original Message From EchelonTee:
mm atm he's just coasted in thread with his asshole townie persona. i assume he's doing a lot of PMs so he should have plenty of info soon. i'm assuming you've been around long enough for when PM games were common; is palmar experienced with them?

also i wouldn't be so quick to divide palmar into gosu town and chobo mafia; he just won as scum in Werewolves Invade TL II. I didn't rly follow that game too closely, but I think he was allowed to coast in that game; if Palmar doesn't start doing after a while I'm going to prod him. i guess mattchew is on that already.

what do you think of prplhz? super sheepy but i dont know why everyone thinks hes scum

Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Right now, I think Palmar is town, but I'm going to wait for the day to come and see how he posts then. If he actually scum-hunts, he's town. If he sits around and doesn't act normal, and instead all meek, he's scum, simple as that. One of Palmar's greatest strengths, is that he easily establishes himself as town in the games he's in, but it also works against him when he's scum, because he's incapable of doing the same thing, and it shows. He might try to change his meta, though, like he did in L, but even then, I didn't read him as scum, just as something being off in his play, which ended up being him playing like scum on purpose to prove a point, or something like that. He's pretty easy to read, and barely a threat as scum, so I'm not that worried, except for people sheeping him like crazy. If he's scum, and no one calls him out on it, people will sheep him for a couple of lynches off reputation, and it might cost us the game.

Original Message From EchelonTee:
eh it reminds me of TL Mafia L where all the big names have the fun roles/are Mafia, and the newbies are lurking/don't have a clue what's going on. ur play currently reminds me of how you were in there; obviously I don't know your alignment and vice versa, but you're not crazy like some of the people in there, so let's talk if you want to bounce any thoughts.

this palmar development is either the best thing that's ever happened, or most terrible. everyone sheeping to him is lol but if he's town, i guess god decided to have mercy.

Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Yeah, I dunno what's up with that. It doesn't really make sense everyone's in PM land, though, when everyone can only contact 2 people themselves, and some players don't like PMs. Maybe Ver/Incog's games are just cursed, look at Responsibility

What do you think of the game, so far?

Original Message From EchelonTee:
hey, picking you for PM. is everyone floating in pm land or something, because otherwise this game looks and feels like a ghost town =/

Twas inactivity and complacency, that killed the town. Also of note, is after people revealed PMs, no one continued to PM. I wasn't getting anything useful out of layabout or EchelonTee and was using them to dump thoughts, so I didn't care that much, but I don't know why you would stop as town. I also sent a PM to layabout asking why he didn't vote Kurumi and he never answered. The rest of my PMs are me talking at Layabout/ET