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On March 15 2012 23:46 Jackal58 wrote:
So we're killing 2 townies today. Scum kills 2 more tonight.
Good luck to ya.
I'm outta here.
Why do you think Kurumi's a townie?
It seems much more likely, that he's actually scum, not the traitor, and that dreamer was provided to mafia as a safeclaim. So, he knows what the role does, but he had to make up his own dreams, which ultimately revealed him. Dreamer's a decent thing to claim, because if you write your dream cryptically enough, you can probably get town to waste a whole bunch of time trying to decipher it, when it's complete gibberish. Also, if Kurumi's actually scum and trying to cover for you, it puts you in a much worse light. As traitor, it could have been he just thought you were scum, but as scum, he would have known you were scum.
Also, Kurumi's traitor behaviour makes sense for mafia. "Pretending to be the traitor" seems like a decent enough way to attract him into PMs with him. It's like a public call-out to the traitor.
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Palmar, how did you go from:
On March 14 2012 23:51 Palmar wrote:
I hate playing roles, but fuck it. Jackal is likely telling the truth, I have additional information to back up his claim.
To:
On March 15 2012 23:02 Palmar wrote:
##Lynch: Jackal58
Looking through your posts, you flip-flop on three different people, and then do this seemingly out of the blue. What made you decide to switch to Jackal?
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On March 16 2012 13:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
How is Palmar not confirmed when he proved his role
What role?
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On March 16 2012 13:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 13:38 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On March 16 2012 13:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
How is Palmar not confirmed when he proved his role What role? King, I think it was
He said VE was a kingmaker, and made him king for the day. That means he gets to pick a lynch of someone on the day where he's king. It's not his role, unless this is a different kind of kingmaker, and even then, it doesn't say anything about his alignment, as VE made him.
On March 16 2012 13:46 Mattchew wrote:
that was me wiggles
What did you say to him to get him to think that Jackal was a good lynch? Why did you think Jackal was a good lynch? Did it have anything to do with Kurumi's roleclaim? Why do you think he believed you? Would you mind sharing the relevant chat logs?
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What alignment does traitor flip on death? Just scum?
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Ok, that's not particularly revealing, because it doesn't look like there was too much discussion, and Palmar doesn't say much back to you besides "ok", so I still want to hear from Palmar. Thanks for posting that, though.
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Mattchew, how does that confirm him as town?
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On March 16 2012 15:36 Bill Murray wrote:
jay pushing a lynch isn't always indicative of alignment
i wasn't in the know on kurumi being scum, although that would have been nice considerin the town im stuck with this game
What do you mean you weren't in the know? Being in the know for that lynch was reading the thread and seeing that his role claim was a complete fabrication.
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Palmar, can you answer:
On March 16 2012 13:38 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Palmar, how did you go from: Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:51 Palmar wrote:
I hate playing roles, but fuck it. Jackal is likely telling the truth, I have additional information to back up his claim. To: Looking through your posts, you flip-flop on three different people, and then do this seemingly out of the blue. What made you decide to switch to Jackal?
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I really love all the talk about different lurkers, but while you're arguing that, you should also place scrutiny into this group:
Mr. Wiggles
Deconduo
Caller
Curu
Dr. H
prplhz
Bill Murray
Roughly a quarter of the game is scum, and considering balance, at least one, if not two of the people on this list are scum. I know I'm town, and I'm pretty certain Decon is town, so that leaves 5 other names. containing something like one or two scum. I'm going to read over these people's filters, and see what I can find. I suggest you do the same thing. If we decide not to lynch into this list today, that's fine, as it's likely that people from this list will continue dying night by night, and as they do, the list will become smaller, and thus pressure on the scum in it should increase, if you keep it in mind. Just don't enter the endgame with only one person from here alive, and not consider the possibility that they're a flaming red mafioso.
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On March 18 2012 09:11 jaybrundage wrote:
I dont even know why people think im scum >.<
Because you do and say scummy things. :p
Did everyone (including me) die?
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I think the fact that Caller got called out directly after shooting and then didn't post anything afterwards is pretty telling. It looks like he's given up on the game. Reading through his filter, he hasn't really interacted much with other players, besides attacking VE and Jackal. Then he pushes for Kurumi after it was obvious he was scum, and makes a post calling Dr. H scum.
On March 18 2012 22:41 layabout wrote:Since the lynch is pretty much done with, maybe we should continue to post? Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 15:18 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I really love all the talk about different lurkers, but while you're arguing that, you should also place scrutiny into this group:
Mr. Wiggles
Deconduo
Caller
Curu
Dr. H
prplhz
Bill Murray
Roughly a quarter of the game is scum, and considering balance, at least one, if not two of the people on this list are scum. I know I'm town, and I'm pretty certain Decon is town, so that leaves 5 other names. containing something like one or two scum. I'm going to read over these people's filters, and see what I can find. I suggest you do the same thing. If we decide not to lynch into this list today, that's fine, as it's likely that people from this list will continue dying night by night, and as they do, the list will become smaller, and thus pressure on the scum in it should increase, if you keep it in mind. Just don't enter the endgame with only one person from here alive, and not consider the possibility that they're a flaming red mafioso. Wiggles, how did you come up with this list?
Basically, it's a list of players who would be considered veterans, and if the game was balanced for players, at least one would figure on the scum team as their 'big' player. If the game was completely RNG'ed, the list isn't very useful. Still, as the game goes on, and people keep dying on this list and flipping town, look at the ones who are left, since it's more likely they're scum. So, by posting this, I'm telling mafia they can either shoot into vets and have their own member stick out more, or they can leave them be and let them (hopefully) kill the scum with analysis.
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On March 19 2012 03:24 EchelonTee wrote:
@wiggles i wouldn't initially say anything against ur list (except for the fact that it is a list and lists suxxors), but i don't like how u presume that decon is town. he's leaning on the scummy side of things for me; is there any reason that he looks better than the other people on your list?
We've talked quite a bit in PMs, and based on that, I have a town-read. As well, he claimed his role to me of his own volition, and confirmed it. Then after talking, he used last night on Palmar to check if he was actually masoned to Mattchew and Curu. If Caller flips scum, we have confirmation that scum have other roles, but I don't think they'd have Decon check Palmar just to shoot him right after. Also, I don't see why they'd claim and make their info public.
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On March 19 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote:
∵ all scum sleep during the night
∵ you sleep during the night
∴ you are scum
it's a calista
Actually scum are awake at night, and it's the townies who go to bed. :p
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On March 20 2012 03:56 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 03:43 sandroba wrote:
So did decon claim anything useful about his powers so far? There was supposed to be 2 kills ytd right? I don't think scum would trade 1 kill for a .5 power so something is off. It's not far fetched to think that medic/jailer protected and scum hit Palmar now is it? And then when he didn't die they just had Caller shoot him in the face. deconduo claimed to have checked Palmar night2 for this result. I don't think he claimed anything for night1. Overall, deconduo is looking really bad and he was also on Palmar's shortlist. @Mr. Wiggles What did you talk to Palmar about?
I didn't talk to him about anything, as he never tried to establish any contact besides asking for my role. I sent a few pokes at him, but he never showed interest in talking back. It's one of the reason I thought he could be scum. Pandain originally PMed me to send me love notes and claim scum.
From: Pandain [ 4313 posts | Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: Re: ♥ u
Date: 3/13/12 07:03
yeah i just don't have the time to adequetelyi devote to this the time it deserves
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
<3
I read you're being replaced, though.
Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Pandain:
this is why i pm you lol
so i can share with you my love
To: Pandain [ Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: Re: hi i pm you
Date: 3/12/12 09:25
Yeah, and I bet you thought you were going to get away with it too. At first, I was puzzled, maybe even a little lost. I wasn't sure what to make of you, but as soon as you claimed scum to me, things started to become clearer. It all made sense! You said you were scum, so in no time at all, I was able to deduce once and for all... that you were scum. CASE CLOSED. No scum escape, when Mr. Wiggles is on the case!
Original Message From Pandain:
fuck
Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
=O Well I guess I'll have to lynch you!
Original Message From Pandain:
yes
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Ok, cool. You scum?
Original Message From Pandain:
I want to pm people who I like/have fun conversations with.
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Well, I hope you feel better soon, then. Why'd you decide to PM me, if you haven't really read through the thread?
Original Message From Pandain:
havne't read everything yet(feel sick).
Original Message From Mr. Wiggles:
Hi! What do you think of the game, so far?
Original Message From Pandain:
hihi
Decon claimed that he checked me night 1, and claimed his results to me in PM. He knew all the people who had PMed me, and who I had PMed. Unless all those people were scum, or spread the word around, there's no way he would have known that, so his role is confirmed.
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On March 20 2012 07:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bill Murray is an aggressive player who likes to fuck around in PMs or what not. His silence this whole game suggests he's blue, not scum imo. He was like this in AC.
Let's go after the scum with substance, first. If BM is scum he will expose himself in due time. Lynch jaybrundage/deconduo/katina in no particular order. PM detective is a role that benefits scum more than town imo. Scum use the power after someone says "a DT claimed to me" or something like that for blue snipes.
Why do you think Decon is scum, besides his role?
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On March 20 2012 12:00 EchelonTee wrote:My 2 main mafia suspects have been posting in quite a different manner, but the common thread between them is their apathy. There have been a number of lurkers in the game, but these two in particular have tried in different ways to remain under the radar and not stick their necks out, while town shouts at itself into chaos. Mr. WigglesI've been pming wiggles for a while and I thought he was town for a while, but the more I think about it the more I do not like him. His initial post was pretty strong and logical, but for the rest of the game he does nothing to match this. Wiggles has been in a position of knowledge (able to talk to palmar, myself, a bunch of others through pm network) and has had several days to form opinions and stuff. I hate it when people on D1 say stuff like "oh foolishness ur scum because you haven't exposed the entire scum team yet, GO TO WORK", but by D3/4, known players like Wiggles should have taken a strong stance somewhere. wiggles has not provided any direction, only asking questions of others to appear like he is being pro-town. The only time that wiggles ever takes a stance of any type is when he posts this list, where he also randomly calls deconduo town based off of pms. I wouldn't mind this kind of post D1. On D3/N3, wiggles is essentially saying "lynch into this list and we will strike scum. but uh don't lynch me", while not giving any reasoning whatsoever. The kicker, for me, comes from my conversation in PMs and Wiggles' stance on Palmar: Wiggles and I talked about a number of thread topics, and he always replied with a fairly consistent post length, in terms of content and depth (standard paragraph)
Why would I ask you to lynch me? I also never told you to lynch into the list right away, either. I told you that there's scum in the list, and if everyone dies in it except for a few people, then you have a scum there nearly for sure. I don't see why I'd give reasoning for not lynching myself, when I wouldn't lynch myself, and know I'm town. I kept myself on the list for everyone, but took myself and deconduo off for myself, so there's no need to justify not lynching myself, to myself.
On March 20 2012 12:08 EchelonTee wrote:
EBWOP: Guess post isn't going up yet, last paragraph from my big one should be this:
The kicker, for me, comes from my conversation in PMs and Wiggles' stance on Palmar: Wiggles and I talked about a number of thread topics, and he always replied with a fairly consistent post length, in terms of content and depth (standard paragraph). but on the topic of palmar (and mattchew), wiggles posted wayy more analysis and reasoning about why he felt palmar was suspicious, especially considering jackal's town flip.
The fact that he put a lot more on this (pm was 2.5x length), while ignoring the fact that palmar took out kurumi, and other aspects of the game in general, makes me feel that he was tryign to get me to push palmar (i had earlier said I would push palmar if jackal flipped green). It's weird that he would put a lot of effort into that push, a push made out of thread and towards a newbie, and if I had gone for it and palmar flipped green, I would take the fall for him completely.
overall wiggles don't take responsibility. yah.
I put a lot more into that PM, because the PM was mostly hypothesis that needed external confirmation. I never said that Palmar was scum, just that everyone calling him confirmed town was stupid and that I wanted to probe deeper into his reasonings and keep my eye on him. Palmar didn't take out Kurumi, Kurumi took out himself. Palmar made a super-timid wishy-washy post saying that Kurumi claimed to him, and didn't even push the lynch. I even wrote this in my PM, if you read it. If you think this was an attempt to get you to push Palmar, then I don't know what to say. I didn't say he was certain scum, I never asked you to push him in the thread, and I never even proclaimed I had decided for myself that he was scum, because I was still trying to get him to tell me why he shot Jackal. Also, there's no way you'd have been able to lynch Palmar by yourself, even if I asked you to. If I wanted to do that, I'd have had to lead the lynch myself. So, that wouldn't even be a realistic plan.
Also, when you're posting a case that has a large basis in your PM communications with someone, why wouldn't you post the relevant PMs? I think that would show a lot more, and let people form their own opinion.
+ Show Spoiler [PMs] +To: EchelonTee [ Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: Re: TL jubjub Date: 3/16/12 15:03 I'm not as sure about Mattchew, but I don't like everyone calling Palmar 'confirmed town'. Here's how things look to me if Palmar is scum, and why I'm trying to press for information in the thread: Palmar mentioned that Kurumi knew there was a Dreamflower role to Curu. Curu said that scum know some roles, so he told him that, and pressed for who the person was. Palmar can't exactly hide him, because that looks way too suspicious. Instead, he reveals him in thread, setting him up for a roleclaim. This is after Kurumi was under a lot of suspicion for being the traitor as well, so it was likely he'd have gotten himself vigged. Note, that this is where people say that Palmar made a case on Kurumi, but Palmar actually didn't say anything about his alignment, and doesn't push for a lynch. On March 15 2012 04:19 Palmar wrote:OK this is super weird. Kurumi claims that he got the information that there is indeed a dreamflower role present in the game with his Role PM. In addition he claims he's a dreamer, ie: gets clues every night. What weirds me out is that I didn't get any information with the role PM, but I know this: Show nested quote +
The mafia will be given some information some of the blue roles that are in the game, but will not be told how many exist.
I'm just not sure Instead, people pressure Kurumi about his role, and he ends up writing two fake PMs that completely kill him, due to how easy it was to see they were incredibly fake and made up. This is the actual point where Kurumi was labelled as scum by a majority of the thread, and is pushed by people like DrH. Palmar doesn't actually push for the lynch, so it's silly that people are attributing it to him. However, in the meantime, Palmar comes out and uses his king power on Jackal. From what he wrote in the thread, he believed Jackal's claim, and was flip-flopping between people like DrH and Caller. So, to lynch Jackal like that, something must have happened. The only major thing in the thread was that Kurumi claimed, and if I remember correctly, this is before he posted the fake PMs. I want to see if he cites this as the reason for deciding to shoot Jackal, because then the claim could be seen as designed to introduce confusion, and give Palmar another reason to shoot Jackal. Kurumi's claim, didn't actually assure his lynch, until he posted fake PMs. Now, imagine those PMs weren't obviously fake. There was already a lot of resistance to his lynch. If that obviousness wasn't in the thread, there'd have been a lot more resistance, and we probably wouldn't have lynched him. As well, we'd have people trying to crack the clues in his "dream", and wasting their time completely. Also add in Palmar's behaviour in the thread today, which seemed much different than normal, and how he didn't push any scumreads or lynches, even before Kurumi's massive slip. It just adds up to me still being wary of him, and not considering him 'confirmed town'. If everyone does that and he's scum, he's going to wreck the town because they'll just sheep him to mislynches like idiots. Original Message From EchelonTee: we can't know about flips remember. u still think palmar/mattchew are scum now? Original Message From Mr. Wiggles: Yes, Palmar and Mattchew are two likely scum if Jackal flips town. For Kurumi, if he's telling the truth about his PM and flips as Dreamer, I'll be mad at the mods. Original Message From EchelonTee: if they both flip town, then i'm going after palmar. if there's a hide flip my brain will explode. Original Message From Mr. Wiggles: Yeah, I didn't particularly think he was dying. I'm also a bit surprised that he was super quiet all of today, but now that it's approaching the deadline he's flinging shit everywhere. I'm guessing the lynch might be hidden, and if it is, Jackal's alignment will be completely unknown to me. He could be town trying to get suspicions out there, or he could be scum who knows he's going to die and now he's making a bunch of accusations so he distracts the town when he no-flips. If he does no-flip, I'm going to watch carefully for who tries to use his reads to push something, as there's a decent likelihood they're scum. Original Message From EchelonTee: np. i'm of the opinion that jackal didn't lie and shouldn't have shot at night, but that he shouldn't have role claimed that role; should've been able to defend himself with his words. Original Message From Mr. Wiggles: No, I forgot about it, and have been busy. To answer your question, Jackal using his shot basically depends on personal opinion. Some people wanted him to shoot, to clear any confusion about his role, while others wanted him to hold his shot, because there's a much higher chance to hit a townie on night 1, than say, something like night 2 or 3. However, by saying he's holding his shot, he still carries confusion with him, about if he's lying or not, and that distracts some people. It's a tradeoff, and depends on if you think he's lying or not. Original Message From EchelonTee: why no reply? you scum/traitor?
And while I'm at it, here's the entirety of my communications with Palmar. For whatever reason, he decided to ignore me, which contributed to me thinking he was scum.
+ Show Spoiler [Skype Logs] +[3/13/2012 4:04:45 AM] Palmar: so when you wake up
[3/13/2012 4:04:48 AM] Palmar: you just roleclaim to me
[3/13/2012 4:04:51 AM] Palmar: on your own time.
[3/13/2012 2:19:03 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm town, but I don't see how my role will help you
[3/13/2012 2:19:13 PM] Mr. Wiggles: Will you send me love notes like Pandain?
[3/13/2012 2:33:40 PM] Palmar: No sorry
[3/13/2012 2:51:20 PM] Mr. Wiggles: So what did you talk to VE about?
[3/14/2012 4:03:52 PM] Mr. Wiggles: So were you claiming scum with the Palpatine speech?
[3/14/2012 4:47:10 PM] Palmar: no
[3/14/2012 4:47:18 PM] Palmar: intentionally dumb?
[3/14/2012 4:47:20 PM] Palmar: or just...
[3/14/2012 4:47:22 PM] Palmar: derp
[3/14/2012 4:47:32 PM] Palmar: can you please be town or something
[3/14/2012 4:47:36 PM] Palmar: or at least look town
[3/14/2012 4:47:44 PM] Palmar: so I have less people to worry about
[3/14/2012 4:47:51 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm not being serious
[3/14/2012 4:48:13 PM] Palmar: I was claiming emperor btw
[3/14/2012 4:48:18 PM] Palmar: I lynch people
[3/14/2012 4:48:32 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I"m just laughing, because in the movies, Palpatine was supposed to come in and save the day, and ended up really being a sith lord, so that you do the same thing would be hilarious if you were scum
[3/14/2012 4:48:43 PM] Mr. Wiggles: because people wanted you to save them
[3/14/2012 4:48:55 PM] Palmar: lol
[3/14/2012 4:49:17 PM] Palmar: do you have a useful role??
[3/14/2012 4:49:20 PM] Mr. Wiggles: also pandain 'claimed' scum to me, which made it personally funnier
[3/14/2012 4:49:24 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm a VT
[3/14/2012 4:49:28 PM] Palmar: kk
[3/14/2012 4:49:34 PM] Palmar: who do you want to lynch?
[3/14/2012 4:50:26 PM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm trying to decide if mattchew is scum or being useless, and kurumi looks like he's most likely lying about his role
[3/16/2012 4:29:36 AM] Palmar: ok
[3/16/2012 4:29:39 AM] Palmar: now that I'm confirmed town
[3/16/2012 4:29:44 AM] Palmar: you need to claim to me.
[3/16/2012 7:56:07 AM] Palmar: hey
[3/16/2012 7:56:10 AM] Palmar: why you mean to me in thread
[3/16/2012 7:56:12 AM] Palmar: is it because I killed your friend?
[3/16/2012 8:02:27 AM] Mr. Wiggles: how's that mean?
[3/16/2012 8:02:32 AM] Mr. Wiggles: I'm jsut asking a question
[3/16/2012 8:02:55 AM] Mr. Wiggles: anyways, I'm off to school, you should answer it
[3/16/2012 8:03:09 AM] Palmar: nah
[3/16/2012 8:03:10 AM] Palmar: I don't wanna
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I think that we need to lynch into the lurker list today. I disagree with Dr. H when he says that people like Bill Murray will reveal themselves as time goes on, and that we should lynch more active people with better posting history, since these people with no posts or anything to look at will continue to act as they have been. Thus, we will only serve in killing off people who are analyzable, while leaving us with having to guess which lurker that looks very similar to the others is scum, come late-game. I actually believe the contrary, that it is the people who already have substance who will reveal themselves, since the town among them should want to actually win, and then should put in some effort into the game.
I think Bill Murray is someone we can't let live into the late-game. He's had a complete non-presence in the thread, which could be attributed to being active in PMs, but based on the claims in the thread, he's only talked to layabout, and not for long, either. I don't think he's blue, like Dr. H says, and if he is and has some sort of results, he should probably speak up, but again, I don't think he has anything. Instead, he's only been throwing around reads, but those aren't worth anything with no reasoning behind them, and no thread-presence to back them up. The fact that Dr. H seems to want to let him lurk also puts me a bit on edge about him, and if he flips red, could draw a link between them.
Abenson is also someone who should be killed. He's not even playing the game, and just coasting along. If he stays alive until late-game, the outcome will basically become a coin-flip. The fact that he also acquiesces constantly to popular opinion makes him look even worse. This one's a little border-line for how scummy he is, as it's hard to tell scummy inactives from town inactives.
The best thing to do with either of them, would be to put actual lynch pressure on them, and see how they react. Not make little cases that don't amount to anything, but seriously threaten them with the lynch until they can satisfy us that they're actually town.
##Vote: Bill Murray
These reads are just going through initially. There's other people who are lurking, but I don't have the time to look at them yet. If you want, I can PM you and we can talk about the game tomorrow.
Decon, who did you check last night?
Also, EchelonTee, what do you think of Curu agreeing with your case?
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On March 20 2012 23:37 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 01:43 Palmar wrote:
Bill Murray needs to die for lack of effort
Jackal needs to die for not shooting night 1
Mr. Wiggles needs to die because he doesn't seem to care about how this game is going, just popping by to drop stupid posts every once in a while.
DrH needs to die for not wanting jackal to shoot and being in general pretty complacent with how badly the game is going
Caller needs to die because VE says he's scum
Kurumi needs to die for claiming having gotten information with his role PM which just doesn't fit. I know I didn't get any.
deconduo needs to die for just being afk, useless and shitty.
Abenson needs to die for lurking.
Curu needs to die for sheeping me without a question, yet providing very little except the case on jackal . If jackal flips scum he's town though.
prplhz needs to die because he did something incredibly dumb with his role if he's telling the truth about it.
If you kill this list, dear townies, we'll win. Don't even think about killing anyone outside the list before those people are all dead. Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 01:38 Palmar wrote:
let's kill everyone who isnt' obvious town
obvious town being mattchew, sentinel, me, jitsu, gumshoe and maybe katina and rgTS. Bill Murray was checked and cleared Caller and Kurumi Flipped scum Palmar, jitsu and gumshoe flipped town Decon and Curu IMO have improved dramatically Prp and Jackal are dead This leaves what should be our next 3 lynches barring unforseen changes Mr. Wiggles needs to die because he doesn't seem to care about how this game is going, just popping by to drop stupid posts every once in a while. Abenson needs to die for lurking. DrH needs to die for not wanting jackal to shoot and being in general pretty complacent with how badly the game is going do not forget the dead
Your reasoning is terrible. You take a list posted by Palmar, where if you're telling the truth, has 2 townies on it who flipped and another who is checked, and two scum, and say that we should lynch everyone on the list? How about I list 10 people in the game, I'm sure I'd hit scum too. Appealing to authority like that shows you don't actually have a basis for lynching me, or at least not one of your own, so you have to regurgitate what Palmar has said.
Here's a question for you.
On March 17 2012 13:50 Mattchew wrote:
i dont know who he checked last night he was gonna tell me close to deadline but wasnt around... and then was shot by some jubjub before he got back You say that you weren't on your computer that had Skype on it, but then you don't say you didn't have access to your Skype, you say: Palmar wasn't around. How would you know Palmar wasn't around if you didn't have access to Skype in the first place? Your stories contradict each other.
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EPT
