EPTNormal Mini Mafia I - Page 11
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EchelonTee
United States5262 Posts
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Timeaisis
23 Posts
On February 04 2012 06:03 EchelonTee wrote: A lot of people seem to be acting based off emotion; that is, reactionary moves. Sinani against prplhz because of his random vote, Sinensis against everyone who voted him, Timeaisis now hates me (<3 you but I think you're chaos sry), and now Toast against prplhz cuz he said you're not making sense. You CANNOT build cases just because people are against you; not only does this result in cases devoid of logic, it's an easy way for scum to avoid making legitimate arguments. Please, if you think someone is scum, say WHY. quote their actual words for brownie points. Just to clear this up real quick: EchelonTee, I don't think you're scum, I just don't like you. So I'm in now way advocating your lynch. Don't group me with people who are voting based on emotion. I'm being practical here. It's me or Sentinel, and obviously, I'm not voting for myself, so I'm voting for sentinel. Couple that with the fact I think sentinel is scum, and that's a very logical vote coming from me. You can analyze it all you want, but it makes pretty good sense. Like someone said earlier, I don't care who you vote for, but is looks to be either me or sentinel tonight. Which is fine. I urge you to pick me or him. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5262 Posts
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On February 04 2012 06:00 prplhz wrote: @TheToast You don't feel like responding to my complaint that you're using the same arguments for me being scum as for Timeasis being town? Nope. I've made my points clear and I think some of your posts speak for themselves. No point in responding to you further, you are just going to turn them back on me with absurd arguments to further muddy the waters. Since we are lynching either Timeasis or [UoN]Sentinel tonight I'm unsure where you have gotten this assumption that one of the two is getting lynched. This smells like scummy railroading. If you want to lynch Timeasis, you are going to need my vote, which you are not going to get. Bluelightz earlier defense of Sentinel made it pretty clear he wouldn't be voting for him. So if you want to lynch Sentinel, you are going to need both Vilonis and BaronFel to switch over. It seems unlikely to me that you are going to get BaronFel given how much of a lurker he's been. In that likely situation, you are again going to need my vote. Unless someone can come up with some really convincing arguments or analysis against Sentinel in the next few hours I'm not sure you will be voting for him either. I'd prefer to lynch day 1, but I would rather see a no lynch instead of a townie lynched. The fact that we are being forced into picking from Sentinel or Timeasis when prplhz and bluelightz are oozing scummy-ness (something to which several people in this thread have agreed to) has me pretty worried. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5262 Posts
On February 04 2012 06:19 Timeaisis wrote: Just to clear this up real quick: EchelonTee, I don't think you're scum, I just don't like you. So I'm in now way advocating your lynch. Don't group me with people who are voting based on emotion. I didn't say that you're voting based off of emotion or that you're advocating my lynch. I'm noting that now you don't like me just because I'm against you. It's a natural reaction, but just remember in Mafia if people suspect you, you should defend yourself and not take it personally. I don't dislike you. Just think you're chaos. On February 04 2012 06:19 Timeaisis wrote: Like someone said earlier, I don't care who you vote for, but is looks to be either me or sentinel tonight. Which is fine. I urge you to pick me or him. Interesting. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
 Anyways, I'd like to make a personal request. I'm at 5 votes, if I get 6 and you want to be the seventh, please extend it for another 4 hours or so, so I can make one last defense when I get back. In other words don't kill me just yet, just post a reason why and put FoS on me or something, and I'll address as much as I can when I get back. And for once, I agree with Timeaisis: Like someone said earlier, I don't care who you vote for, but is looks to be either me or sentinel tonight. Which is fine. I urge you to pick me or him. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
In the same post where I put up the analysis for Bluelights I said that I wasn't 100% sure about Sentinel and that's why I was preferring to lynch bluelightz day 1. I did say that I would be willing to switch to Sentinel, but now I'm not so sure about that. I want to wait and see what else comes up in the next few hours. You're right, maybe my analysis of prplhz wasn't rock solid, I'm still convinced he's scum but maybe I need to do a bit more in depth analysis to make that point. But I'm thinking we at least agree on Bluelightz, as does Timeaisis. So why aren't we looking at this guy for a D1 lynch?? | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On February 04 2012 06:24 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: prp answered your question to me, I've played and am still alive in Hammer which is soon to finish, and this, and that's my whole record Anyways, I'd like to make a personal request. I'm at 5 votes, if I get 6 and you want to be the seventh, please extend it for another 4 hours or so, so I can make one last defense when I get back. In other words don't kill me just yet, just post a reason why and put FoS on me or something, and I'll address as much as I can when I get back. And for once, I agree with Timeaisis: guys I can't defend myself right now as I type this post will you please give me several hours to think of a way out of this or for my Chaos buddies to bail me out | ||
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
On February 04 2012 06:34 Sinensis wrote: guys I can't defend myself right now as I type this post will you please give me several hours to think of a way out of this or for my Chaos buddies to bail me out I think waiting for the lynch as long as possible is the right decision. What do we gain from lynching someone some hours earlier than possible? Nothing. We just lose time to discuss everything. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
... right GMarshal/redFF? | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 04 2012 06:59 prplhz wrote: Uh, I just want to clear up that this isn't an instant majority lynch, this is just a majority lynch. Just because we reach 7 votes on some guy doesn't mean that the day ends, the day ends at deadline and then we'll see if we have a majority. ... right GMarshal/redFF? Correct, as detailed in the OP, this is Extended Majority Lynch | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On February 04 2012 06:20 TheToast wrote: Nope. I've made my points clear and I think some of your posts speak for themselves. No point in responding to you further, you are just going to turn them back on me with absurd arguments to further muddy the waters. I'm unsure where you have gotten this assumption that one of the two is getting lynched. This smells like scummy railroading. If you want to lynch Timeasis, you are going to need my vote, which you are not going to get. Bluelightz earlier defense of Sentinel made it pretty clear he wouldn't be voting for him. So if you want to lynch Sentinel, you are going to need both Vilonis and BaronFel to switch over. It seems unlikely to me that you are going to get BaronFel given how much of a lurker he's been. In that likely situation, you are again going to need my vote. Unless someone can come up with some really convincing arguments or analysis against Sentinel in the next few hours I'm not sure you will be voting for him either. I'd prefer to lynch day 1, but I would rather see a no lynch instead of a townie lynched. The fact that we are being forced into picking from Sentinel or Timeasis when prplhz and bluelightz are oozing scummy-ness (something to which several people in this thread have agreed to) has me pretty worried. Why don't you want to point out the logical fallacies I am making that makes me scum? Why is "you are using the same arguments for me being scum as for Timeaisis being town" an "absurd argument"? I think it that logic is so sound that you can't in any way refute it and that's why you don't want to address it. Do you really suspect that there can be a third candidate today? Then why aren't you pushing Bluelightz any harder? I'm wanting people to consolidate because it's friday and it's a game where people haven't been extremely active which makes me think that it's hard to get people to actually switch to a third candidate which makes me think that trying to switch to a third candidate will just lead to a no-lynch which I don't really want. Guys, up until now EchelonTee and I have pointed out several flaws in Timeaisis' play, which makes him scummy, and in TheToast's defense of him, which makes it invalid. Okay my take on the [UoN]Sentinel lynch. First Nisani201 voted him off the shabbiest analysis ever, "He was the second person voting for somebody else, thus he is scum.". I mean seriously what the fuck? Guy didn't post ever since. Next time something happens is this post: On February 03 2012 06:16 mderg wrote: Did I understand it right that the day 1 lynch isn´t as important to you as other lynches? This can give scum a good opportunity to vote without proper reason... and that´s not what we want. Also I don´t like how you just assume there´s a Vigilante and a Hedonist in this game. The setup is semi-open, so we can´t be sure about that. Especially "knowing" about a Hedonist in the game indicates that you might be scum... a town player shouldn´t know that. These are minor aspects off your play and don´t mean you´re scum, but right now you´re my top suspect. Along with the easily following the votes on Sinensis it justifies a vote from me. ##Vote: [UoN]Sentinel This vote is based on [UoN]Sentinel thinking that there might be a vigilante and a hedonist in this game. Scum don't know blues and do you really think that [UoN]Sentinel would make a scum slip like that? I have never ever seen a scum slip like that, like anything, scum slips are pretty much a myth perpetuated by scum because they give scum an allegedly semi-legitimate reason to vote for somebody. They don't exist and I have in 20 games never seen anybody do a real scum slip. This is not saying that mzerg is chaos by the way, he might just have been sucked in by the myth. Additionally he says that he actually doesn't think that [UoN]Sentinel is scum, he's just his biggest suspicion. Now give me the case on [UoN]Sentinel because this "scumslip" into bandwagon is plain stupid. Tons of people voting because of emotions like EchelonTee correctly pointed out (I like that guy), you vote on arguments not because I voted you and now I'm not voting [UoN]Sentinel. You guys need to read the thread and vote with your brain and not with your guts. EchelonTee made an excellent case, read it and tell me why it's worse than that case mzerg just made. You can't because it isn't. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
I don't. I think you're defending Sentinel, like I said you would, just like Bluelightz did, because you're scum too and so is Bluelightz. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
Screw what you think about me or [UoN]Sentinel voting for you, read mderg's case on [UoN]Sentinel and then read EchelonTee's case on Timeaisis. Can you tell me with a straight face that you truly believe that mderg's case on [UoN]Sentinel is better than EchenlonTee's case on Timeaisis? Then why are you still voting for [UoN]Sentinel? That goes for everybody by the way You can never say anything about somebody's alignment based on what somebody else is doing. Just because TheToast has posted a terrible defense of Timeaisis doesn't mean that Timeaisis is chaos. Might mean that TheToast is chaos but it doesn't tell me anything about Timeaisis. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
The more posts I read of Sentinel's the more I am convinced he is not under the control of the warp-spawn. This all started on Page 6 where he posted the following: and to whic Nisani responded with the following: On February 03 2012 01:29 Nisani201 wrote: You guys make this too easy. ##Vote: [UoN]Sentinel When questioned by mdreg as to why he just voted Sentinel Nisani had the following reason: On February 03 2012 01:52 Nisani201 wrote: Sinensis is not scum. prplhz started the bandwagon but Sentinel moved it forward. If he's not scum then it's probably prplhz or someone else on the bandwagon. First of all, Bluelightz was the first to call out Sinesis, then prplhz jumped on him, then followed by Sentinels vote and post of "I'm sold". At this point, to me he's looking likely a bad town player and there is no reason to suspect he is chaos-y scum. Even Nisani admitted here it could just as easily have been prplhz. The next mention of Sentinel as scum came from Sinesis, when I prompted him to list his thoughts: On February 03 2012 04:51 Sinensis wrote: FoS: Sentinel FoS: prplhz FoS: Bluelightz For throwing their votes around before the rest of anyone even had a chance to say something. prplhz's posting is cryptic/suspicious in general in my opinion. Sentinel for a bandwagon vote. Bluelightz because he's extremely indecisive with his vote so far, though it could be he's just indecisive, being indecisive with your vote isn't going to get us a win. I'm curious what EchelonTee sees in Timeaisis. Nisani201 seems to share similar suspicions as me. TheToast's agenda seems loyal to the Emperor. That is all for now. Basically his was the same reasoning as Nisani, Sentinel because he jumped on the anti-Sinesis bandwagon. Again this proves nothing in terms of him being chaos. Next evidence came from mdreg's analysis of Sentinel, which was in response to Sentinel's defense of himself: On February 03 2012 06:16 mderg wrote: Did I understand it right that the day 1 lynch isn´t as important to you as other lynches? This can give scum a good opportunity to vote without proper reason... and that´s not what we want. Also I don´t like how you just assume there´s a Vigilante and a Hedonist in this game. The setup is semi-open, so we can´t be sure about that. Especially "knowing" about a Hedonist in the game indicates that you might be scum... a town player shouldn´t know that. These are minor aspects off your play and don´t mean you´re scum, but right now you´re my top suspect. Along with the easily following the votes on Sinensis it justifies a vote from me. ##Vote: [UoN]Sentinel The point about Day 1 is null, many people comonly believe that Day 1 isn't very useful as blue's haven't had the chance to use their abilities. In itself this means nothing. Important item here is mdreg's point about how Sentinel assumes there is a Vigilante and a Hedonist in the game. Is that really so suspicious? Is someone really scum because they assume there is a Vigilante and a framer in the game? His post was certainly strange, and didn't make a whole lot of sense. But again, that could simply point to bad town player. Next came Timeaisis: On February 03 2012 06:20 Timeaisis wrote: Right now, Sentinel and prphlz are my two. Especially since Sentinel seems to be more active of late, mderg's recent post, and Sinensis' recent find on prplhz (which I think is pretty reasonable). But since we have a vote rolling for Sentinel, that's the way I'm going. ##Vote: [UoN]Sentinel So in other words Timeasis made his decision on Sentinel because he's posting more than prphlz and from mderg's suspicion. This is not a reasonable conclusion of scummyness. As stated, mderg's vote on Sentinel was based on the fact that he assumed there is a Vigilante and Framer in game. Neither of these things mean anything. Sentinel responded with the following: On February 03 2012 06:29 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: For blue roles, I'm just assuming that. There's 9 citizens, I'm betting 3 of those are out there, maybe 4 if we're lucky. If you go check bluelights, he actually went as far as to say "1 of each role, 1 of each scum but the hedonist, and 5 townies." I'm wondering why you didn't say anything about that. Assuming there's 1 of each except for the hedonist (a 25% chance, there are 4 possible permutations if no scumrole is doubled) is a bit more scummy than assuming scum has a hedonist (75% chance by same prediction). This seems pretty reasonable to me. 3 roles out of 9 townies seems normal, and to have one of those as a Vigilante seems again completely normal. I don't see how this condems him to scumhood. Then Sinesis chimed in with a well thought out analysis: On February 03 2012 09:48 Sinensis wrote: Yes I have backed off random voting because no one was for it. I said when I proposed all of my ideas that they were up for debate/criticism/modification, that I was just trying to talk strategy. Then people started voting me. ##Vote: [UoN]Sentinel Wait, where was the analysis again? So at this point we have a number of votes against Sentinel with NO good evidence that he is actually scum. There are only TWO things left for me that make me suspecios of Sentinel. -First as I mentioned before here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306452¤tpage=9#176 Bluelightz aimlessly going to bat for Sentinel and "analyzing" the people who voted for him is strange. He gives no reason for it, give no reason for not analyzing Sentinel and instead going after the people who voted for him. As I mentioned before, however, this is circumstantial evidence. Bluelightz could have just been screwing with us. -Second thing is his fixation on Timeaisis. On February 03 2012 09:48 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Woke up. I thought I would be guillotined by this time but apparently so far nobody else has voted for me. Voting because someone else said so is not a good policy. You should at least justify why you think his is the only reasonable evidence when I clearly addressed and refuted his every point. Sinensis is turning slightly greener for me, but your actions thus far have just been a giant WTF for me. So until then, ##Vote: Timeaisis Seems that this is a retribution vote. "You voted me so now I'm going to vote you". Seems strange, but again does not really prove he is scum. Circumstantial evidence again. Given this, I really don't see myself voting Sentinel. The case against him is weak, and Bluelightz is again the most confirmed scum in my book. I am not changing my vote. Just f-5ed and it looks like prplhz agrees with me. Didn't expect that, but evidence is what evidence is and there is none here. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On February 04 2012 07:26 prplhz wrote: @Sinensis Screw what you think about me or [UoN]Sentinel voting for you, read mderg's case on [UoN]Sentinel and then read EchelonTee's case on Timeaisis. Can you tell me with a straight face that you truly believe that mderg's case on [UoN]Sentinel is better than EchenlonTee's case on Timeaisis? Then why are you still voting for [UoN]Sentinel? That goes for everybody by the way You can never say anything about somebody's alignment based on what somebody else is doing. Just because TheToast has posted a terrible defense of Timeaisis doesn't mean that Timeaisis is chaos. Might mean that TheToast is chaos but it doesn't tell me anything about Timeaisis. I have read every post in this thread it's part of the game. So your first paragraph wouldn't mean anything regardless of who you said it to. I am voting for Sentinel based on MY analysis of his play, not anyone else's. I think EchelonTee is the one being emotional. He's been grilling Timeaisis and ONLY Timeaisis this whole game. His "points" he likes to talk about are convoluted. That said I think neither are scum. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On February 04 2012 07:24 Sinensis wrote: Timeaisis made his first post on TL in this mafia forum. First game first post, obviously he's new. You believe the dungeon master put him in a scum role? I don't. I think you're defending Sentinel, like I said you would, just like Bluelightz did, because you're scum too and so is Bluelightz. It is really hard for me to argue with that first argument because it's so terrible that if you can't see how terrible it is right now, then you maybe never be able to see it. First something we can both agree on: The number of posts you have does not make you better or worse at mafia. Second: Just because you have played a lot of mafia doesn't necessarily make you better at mafia. Your argument is purely speculation, you haven't looked into old games with similar setup that GMarshal has hosted have you? I haven't looked through all of those I posted earlier but I remember my very first game on this forum, which was hosted by the very GMarshal and had a similar theme. Here's the rolelist. Three scum, all first gamers. They won the game as you can see. Now you are also speculating that [UoN]Sentinel is scum because I am defending him. This is again bad logic. Say that you think that I am scum, I could be defending [UoN]Sentinel because he is scum and I don't want him to die, or I could be defending him because he is town and I want to buy town credit with him or in case it looks like he's getting lynched, town credit with the surviving town. Both are possible so my alignment tells you absolutely nothing about [UoN]Sentinel's alignment. What does tell you something about my alignment are my arguments. If I have bad arguments then I have no reason as townie to be defending [UoN]Sentinel in the first place, which makes me either wrong or scum. Which is why you need to look at the arguments and not go about speculating like that. Your case has absolutely no merits and you should really look at it and realize this very soon and switch to Timeaisis. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On February 04 2012 07:43 prplhz wrote: It is really hard for me to argue with that first argument because it's so terrible that if you can't see how terrible it is right now, then you maybe never be able to see it. First something we can both agree on: The number of posts you have does not make you better or worse at mafia. Second: Just because you have played a lot of mafia doesn't necessarily make you better at mafia. Your argument is purely speculation, you haven't looked into old games with similar setup that GMarshal has hosted have you? I haven't looked through all of those I posted earlier but I remember my very first game on this forum, which was hosted by the very GMarshal and had a similar theme. Here's the rolelist. Three scum, all first gamers. They won the game as you can see. Now you are also speculating that [UoN]Sentinel is scum because I am defending him. This is again bad logic. Say that you think that I am scum, I could be defending [UoN]Sentinel because he is scum and I don't want him to die, or I could be defending him because he is town and I want to buy town credit with him or in case it looks like he's getting lynched, town credit with the surviving town. Both are possible so my alignment tells you absolutely nothing about [UoN]Sentinel's alignment. What does tell you something about my alignment are my arguments. If I have bad arguments then I have no reason as townie to be defending [UoN]Sentinel in the first place, which makes me either wrong or scum. Which is why you need to look at the arguments and not go about speculating like that. Your case has absolutely no merits and you should really look at it and realize this very soon and switch to Timeaisis. If I switch to anyone it'll be you or Bluelightz, and it'll be because of your posts on this page. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
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