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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I'd rather not have PMs because every PM game I've been in was shit. There's rarely real analysis and I don't feel like changing the game because "it's too hard" or whatever. Resurrection was no flip with no PMs and we townies dominated the mafia that game. It all comes down to scumhunting ability, really. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
well, second only to RoL I guess. dat hot dog eating champ | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 26 2012 16:56 Dirkzor wrote: {speculation} I think its quite safe to assume that both town and mafia have powerroles. I also believe that some of the roles are attached to the votepower mechanic. Maybe a powerrole that only activates with a certain amount of votes? Or you need to have less then a certain amount? {/speculation} Here's my attitude when it comes to speculation: 1. Does it help us find scum? If yes, then cool. If no, then on to #2. 2. Does it help us find/establish townies? If yes, then cool. If no, then #3: 3. Does it help us to not get fucked over by some broken scum mechanic? If yes, then cool. If not, then #4: 4. If you got here then you shouldn't be speculating Since your speculation falls under #4, why are you doing it? What purpose does this serve? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 26 2012 18:28 Dirkzor wrote: I disagree. As long as you don't take the speculation and add it to real information gained later I see no reason not to speculate now. Speculating might open up ideas/possibilities for others that they have yet to realize themself - myself included. Also it provides discussion at the start of day 1. So what goal does your speculation achieve? I'm really curious about this. On January 26 2012 18:33 Palmar wrote: @prplhz: Because I'm just that awesome. I suggest we kill Bugs, he's good as scum and bad as town. The only way I'm going to die this game is if I get shot by scum. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
We need moar activity. If we want to turn this game into resurrection v 2.0 then the people who haven't posted yet must come forth and make themselves worth something. Right now I feel like not doing anything because some of the most experienced players in the game have still done jack all. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I.e. Anyone who doesn't follow it gets lynched. Why? Well, as a townie you have very little information, if any, about where your vote is going. Mafia knows all the alignments, so they know everything already. Thus, the vote trading mechanic is clearly scum favored, because they know who are getting their votes and why. They can split up the votes, they can pile them up, they can put them on scum, they can put them on town. The no-flip mechanic means we'll never find out the alignment of the players involved. This can spell some problems for us. Ofc, every night we can expect 1 KP that will most likely hit town. So if you think about it, as townies we're essentially gambling by giving out our votes to our "best town reads". I can guarantee you that as scum I'd jump on this faster than you could say WIFOM. Why? Well, it's simple. This game is no flip, so the possibilities are almost limitless for scum manipulation with respect to a mechanic that relies on relatively unreliable player reads. Look at day 1 of L; like 15 townies (some of the best in this forum) thought BM was town, and almost fucked us over. Reads, particularly early game reads, are often too unreliable for this kind of mechanic. For that reason, I think we should play normally, and send the votes in an orderly fashion so that we know where they are at all times. When votes appear where they shouldn't be, we take a look at why that happened, and we can lynch the people responsible (since the receiver will correspond to another player) In other words, if the vote circle is messed up, the solution is to kill the sender. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
We send votes in a line down the list. Tomorrow, everyone should end up with 3. If anyone has 2, we kill the person who was supposed to give them the vote. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:09 risk.nuke wrote: Yes, wbg. that everyone understood. Assuming nobody here is full on retard they can figure that out. Wbg are you telling me you approve of vote circles? Yeah, I fully approve of them. I'm going to give Palmar some time to shape up, but if he doesn't agree with this (if he's town he should, it's completely logical) then he should probably die. Anyone who opposes the vote circle plan: please provide reasoning as to why it's bad. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:13 risk.nuke wrote: I've said several things to why it's bad. Reread what I said. And if you don't understand. Feel free to ask me questions. Your reasoning is fucking terrible because, as I said just a moment ago, if votes were given out to the towniest townies then the scum would ensure they look the most town. This is a NO FLIP game, any scum with half a brain can look town, all that'll happen is the lurky townies will get no votes and the vote power will shift toward the scum because proportionally at least one will end up looking like town. Guaranteed there's at least one vet on the scumteam, and if we were to follow your idea that person would end up with like a third of the votes. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:27 VisceraEyes wrote: WBG, I'm iffy on the vote-circle, and here's why: we can't know who the extra votes are going to. Scum are going to kill someone, and whoever tried to give that person a vote is going to have an extra vote. Will scum design the kill to give themselves extra VP? We can't know the answer, and we won't know even if we lynch the receiver. That's the fundamental flaw in the plan: it provides the most opportunity for everyone to have the same number of votes, but it ensures that someone is going to have more than everyone else and we have no idea if we can trust that person or not. At least by giving a vote to someone who appears pro-town in-thread, we can keep who gets the extra votes within our power. RE: Palmar - Palmar's agenda right now is accruing votes from sheep - he's not going to approve of this plan regardless of his alignment unless he's trolling us. The question becomes: would scumPalmar put stick his neck out like this, bucking the only semblance of a nearly universally accepted plan just to try and gain some VP for the next cycle? I think he would, because he's likely to succeed regardless of his alignment. But town may disagree. I'm willing to kill Palmar today if he doesn't shape up, but I'm also willing to give him until tomorrow. Right now he's one of only two scum reads I have. I'll echo you and say that we need more activity. I just explained what happens in that circumstance. If scum are killing people to give themselves extra VP, I think it'll be obvious. Someone who probably wouldn't die ends up dying. In that case it's still beneficial for us, because chances are good that in order to give themselves VP scum will need to shoot suboptimally. Half the time they won't, ofc, but how does that matter? Does 1 extra VP on one person really matter? It's 1 out of like 40. I really don't think that extra VP is going to change much unless town is being retarded, and that one person will be under a lot of scrutiny anyway. On January 27 2012 08:22 risk.nuke wrote: Ehh... Okey if if it's so easy for scum to look town. Then why don't they do it anyway and lol their way to victory? Are you illiterate or just plain thick? The reason scum don't normally do this is because normal games are not NO FLIP This is the key, this game is FUCKING NO FLIP. I don't believe you've thought hard enough about this if you're asking such questions. Also, that's what good scum do regardless of whether it's no flip or not anyway. I know for a fact it's what I'd try doing as scum. It's what I did in Mini X, I just made myself look town and then loled all the way to 1vtown victory. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:53 risk.nuke wrote: I'm not beein thick you are. I said why don't they do it anyway and ment THIS GAME, regardless of votecircles or not. You say that if we lett everyone give thier votes to whoever they want then scum will try to look the most town and that's why it is a bad idea. What you say doesn't even make sense. uhh of course it does. You say, let's give our votes to whoever looks most town. Scum then simply get votes for doing what would be optimal for them anyway! No doubt scum are going to try to look town. By saying we are going to give the people who look town the votes, we're basically going to reward scum for their play with votes. What YOU are saying doesn't make sense, because you completely overlook this. The most useless players in the game are generally all townies, and so you're basically going to shift votes away from them onto scum and active townies. It will almost always benefit scum because the vote proportion will change just by the fact that the lazy townies won't receive votes while everyone else will. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 09:26 risk.nuke wrote: No. I say I will give my votes to whoever I think is town, town isn't goin to hold a moot about it and have everyone send their vote to 1 or 3 people. And tell me how is scum going to act to look pro-town. All we can do to find scum in this game is look for inconsistencies and scummy behavior. Free vote-trading just gives us more to look for and help us get better reads on people. And scum will have to activly post to get votes or have their votes reduced. Which will prevent first of all lurker-scum but also more room to slip and make an error. Also you're going by the assumption that there will be three scum who will look mega town. along with 3-4 townies who will try to play and get killed first while the rest of the town is useless. Thats dumb. Yeah there are a few people in this game that shouldn't be. But you are just either fearfull or purposly fearmongering. Assume the majority of the townies will be regular townies. Not useless lurkers. Please, This was supposed to be a game free of beginers just because of that. There will likely be 1 or 2 useless townies anyway who slinked in. They will have 1 votepower and wont hurt us as much as they could with 3 votes. Consider them as a lurker-bane shot them. You have provided no reasoning for why votecircles are better then free voting other then. Scum will try to look town and get all our votes which is incorrect and dumb-townie at best. Scumplay at worst. I'm off, we'll continue this tomorrow. I'm not making any assumptions about anything. Pretend there are 3 townies this game who do not receive any votes from other townies. That's not an unreasonable number. I might even imagine there might be as many as 5 or even 6 who don't receive votes n1, because most townies' opinions about who they think is town tend to be very similar. As I said earlier, remember how people thought BM looked town in mafia L? And he played terribly to boot. Now, imagine those 3 townies don't receive any votes. Scum only send votes to scum and at least 3 votes go from townies to scum. Impossible? Nah, you can RNG the votes and they'd end up that way. One townie dies, vote power for scum just increased from 9 to 12 in a pool that went down from 43 to 40 or 41. Percentage of scum votes went up from less than 25% to around 30%. That's a significant increase. Also in this hypothetical the scumteam only received 3 votes. I could guarantee you that if I were scum and I were trying hard enough I'd be able to get that many votes alone, EASILY. The advantage to the vote sending system is that, at most, scum gain 1 vote during the night. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 09:31 LSB wrote: Sorry guys for the extremely late arrival but plan time!!!! The Strongest Chain ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8frwy.jpg) Things we know about the setup 1. If someone dies, all actions to him are canceled. All of his votes disappear 2. Vote power is public 3. You can only give one vote to one player. Mafia Objectives 1. Accure votepower 2. Try not to lose votepower through lynches Town Objective 1. To gain, or keep voting power Individually if I had the option to not trade, I would obviously do it, since there is a chance that I would give it to a mafia. If I kept my vote I can insure that it will stay with the town. The best plan will attempt to replicate this, while building some sort of advantage. Here is the plan, it is quiet simple. Circlevotes*! (*But better) Now the actual plan and why it works The Plan Everyone will transfer their votes. Palmar will give a vote to Jackal58, NetStalker will give a vote to me so on so forth until LayAbou gives a vote to Palmar. In addition, there will be something called the Self Correcting Fixing Mechanisms Each day afterwards, votes will be adjusted so that everyone will end up with 3 votes the day after. Because KP is set at 1, at the end of every nights there will be one person with 4 votes, and one person with 2 votes (as their trades to the killed person will be canceled). For the next night, the person with the 4 votes and the person with the two votes will be removed from the circle and they will trade votes. The person with the 4 votes will give the other 2 votes, and the person with 2 votes will give the other 1 vote, leaving each of them with 3. + Show Spoiler [Example] + DAY 1: A:3 B:3 C:3 D:3 E:3 F:3 A->B 1 vote B->C 1 vote C->D 1 vote D->E 1 vote E->F 1 vote F gets killed DAY 2: A:2 B:3 C:3 D:3 E:4 A->E 1 vote E->A 2 votes B->C 1 vote C->D 1vote D->A 1 vote The self-correcting mechanism has a ‘flaw’ though, in the above example, if person A dies night two, mafia will net an ‘extra’ vote. BUT: this isn’t a real flaw. It’s actually is an Advantage. First of all, it will strongly green E as a townie. Second of all, the person with the four votes could be protected by the doctor / slightly greened during the day before he dies. Mafia is left with a choice. Either to give us information, or to give up a vote, or to keep everything the same. All of which at least break even for town Why this plan is better than all other plans 1. It neutralizes vote movements from mafia. Mafia can no longer transfer votes between members. Defeating Mafia objected 2 2. It is better from ordinary circle-jerks because if the mafia chooses to exploit the ‘flaw’ with self-correction we will be able to green someone. On the other hand, if mafia exploits the flaw with chain voting, we would not be able to get as good data 3. It is better than passing 2 votes. Passing 2 votes is very pro-mafia. There is no reason to pass two votes if you only have 3. Remember, you can only pass votes to one person, so just passing one vote neutralizes any other vote passing actions you have. The only reason why you would want to pass two votes would be to make a two vote swing for the mafia. (in-addition passing two votes eliminates a self-correcting mechanism) 4. Giving one person all of the votes is an extremely risky endeavor. It is an instant lose if the person is mafia. And even if you gave all the votes to me, there is no guarantee that I can live the night. 5. Random passing is a bad idea. First of all, statistically speaking a portion of the town votes will end up in mafia hands, while very few if any mafia votes end up in town hands. This means that mafia will always gain vote power each night I believe the vote trade cancel will leave one person with 4 votes and everyone else with 3. I could be mistaken, but that's what I understood from reading the op; if you give a vote to a person who dies that night, you keep your vote. And this is exactly what I've been saying and I agree 100% with LSB. As of now I'm actually willing to kill Risk.nuke just because he can't see this common sense. ##vote risk.nuke | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 09:42 Jackal58 wrote: What game were you playing? BM just looked insane. I agree with your points for a circle. I like LSBs self correction factor too. But BM looking town?????? Apparently you don't remember day 1 at all. BM got 11 votes and the fucking sheriff because everyone kept saying he looked town. At any rate, it's not relevant now, it was just relevant to my argument that giving people votes based on "town reads" is straight up retarded. It also opens up the town to manipulation of these reads solely based on the vote transfers, which is actually pretty scary. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 19:34 Palmar wrote: You're allowed an opinion, even if it's wrong. This is so incredibly hypocritical... you have had nothing but shit opinions all game. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 19:03 Palmar wrote: I meant to say: What this plan does is remove responsibility, instead of using analysis and logic to assign our vote. Everyone should simply give their vote to whoever they have a town read on. funny how punctuation can fuck up a sentence. The problem is that any one scum who appears town will fuck us over. I don't want to give mafia ANY vote power. I trust myself, but I don't trust anyone else. After BM got elected last game, how can you trust people to have good town reads? Even good players will have bad reads sometimes. One bad read and you give mafia a vote. Mafia will have no problem just handing their vote off to a teammate because no one ever flips in this game. They can defend each other like crazy and they will never see any serious repercussions from it because, again no one flips! This simple fact is so important that I cannot believe you're still thinking it's a good idea to just trust your reads in a damn no flip game. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 20:01 Palmar wrote: And stop bringing up the no-flip thing. There's definitely some coroner type roles around this game. what is this, a claim? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Sentinel guy Prplhz Don't kill paperscraps...yet. ##unvote risk.nuke ##vote [UoN]Sentinel | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
1. The majority of the votes shift toward "more townie" townies, with "less townie" townies getting less votes. Mafia votes either go down by a couple or stay the same. 2. Mafia gains like 5 votes due to one of their members looking town. Neither is something that is particularly great, although obviously #1 has its advantages. Is it very useful? IMO not really, since in a no-flip setup we can't tell the difference between 1 and 2. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 28 2012 12:00 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: #2 also requires the mafia to give up some of their votes, because if they just circlejerk each other then we find our scum and lynch to victory. I really don't think that it'll be that easy. Also, the fact that you actually think that it'll be that easy means I still want to lynch you. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 05 2012 09:40 LSB wrote: Yep, vote circle would have been the best town plan, because of the fact that there were many vote manipulation elements. Of course you guys didn't know it. :D Nice hits vigs! -_- people called me dumb for supporting the fucking vote circle. While my keyboard died. So I couldn't defend myself when I was getting lynched. Also holy crap the setup was mafia-favored, but town was lucky that scum messed up a lot and key town players caught onto it. Mafia played in such a way that I had 3 of them caught day 1 (check GM's obs qt lol) and I'm not that great of a scumhunter people should have been able tosee that lsb was scum based on the way he flopped about the plan, and the fact that he supported something so mafia favored to begin with. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 05 2012 11:42 prplhz wrote: He said "knowing what roles scum has, the plan was good", you didn't know what roles scum had  Like Jackal58 said, vote-stealer is imbalanced in late game. Was it 1 scum v 8 townies, and then it's LYLO? That's pretty crazy. Town had no idea that they needed to keep the VP spread out to avoid that scenario. it didn't matter what roles the scum had. In fact,not knowing them meant you should always go with the more conservative plan, not the one that stacks votes on single people. I would have guessed there was a votestealing mechanic for scum, or at least something setup related. EDIT: Also, even knowing that, if scum actually played half decent (no offense guys, you really dropped the ball on this one lol) I can guarantee you that scum would end upwith more votes proportionally than town by day 2. If I was scum, as I said repeatedly on day 1, I would have played in such a way that I would be guaranteed to receive votes from multiple people the next day. I might even have just mimicked a townie if I thought that would help (and I think it would have) | ||
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