EPT(sorry joe, work/classes getting rough so i can't play =[)
Hammer Mini Mafia
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
(sorry joe, work/classes getting rough so i can't play =[) | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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Hello! Sorry for not posting or voting today. I replaced in without thinking about my schedule and due to a heavy workload today + I had to dispense some lessons in social justice on reddit today, I was unable to fully make it through the thread. I am about half way through it and because I felt that voting/voicing my incomplete thoughts would only serve to be a negative thing to do, I refrained from both. I just got back from my night run and I have an early morning shift tomorrow (5AM-10AM) but I promise to definitely be done with reading tomorrow and contribute fully to the discussion. Sorry once again for the inconvenience. | ||
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chaoser
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1) I realized that a lot of people spent way too much time on the concept of vote-trading when really there should have been a lot more looking or trying to start discussions about lynching and such. Palmar is pretty much townie in my eyes since he started off the game aggressive and then backed it up by actually following through with his baiting. In particular this post was beautiful: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303505¤tpage=16#319 There were two ways to play the game circle trading (safe) and call trading (informative). I really didn't see the appeal of safe trading aside since, as Palmar said, we were giving away one of our avenues for information. Negative things happening is still information. 2) I don't understand why WBG was lynched, it seemed like the lynch was based around his meta more than anything else and that was stupid because there were more scummy people out there. On in particular, which no one really looked at was: Dirkzor: It starts off with a post that I thought was pretty useless, basically repeating sentinel's idea http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303505¤tpage=11#208 and then he moves onto speculating about roles, another completely useless topic. WBG calls him out on it. His posts that follow afterwards call for others to scumhunt while he does nothing, only telling Palmar to get into the game. The play seemed very passive at this point so I wasn't that suspicious. It was when he called out prplhz that I started to wonder. Free trade or circle trading. Giving as few votes as possible seems to be best. That way least amount of town votes can potentielly end up at scum. Why would I, when I know my own allignment, give votes to a potential scum? I won't! This statement is weird and I find it scummy. The concept of giving away more or less votes doesn't establish and can't really be used to decide if someone is scummy or not. That's like using different people's preferences for the circle-jerk v the free trade idea as a measure of scumminess, with people who wanted a different plan from you being considered "scummy". Bad reasoning and this made it seem like he was grasping at something that wasn't there. The italic part is also written from a scum perspective. The whole process of saying how the roles affect scum seems to be from someone who is on the recieving end of the power roles. While everyone could think this, I don't think a town person would write it and certainly not in this way. This, once again, is bad logic. How can you tell if something is written from a scum perspective or not? Once again it seems like he's trying to suggest something that is not there at all. This is kind of similar to VE's post here: I'm going to be honest - I'm also starting to think Palmar is town, but it's not based on a belief that I think he's acting scummy to test reactions. It could be, but that's not why. I think Palmar is town based almost exclusively on the fact that scummy players like Paperscraps are defending the way he's playing. which is also reaching for a connection that is not there. I would be ok with lynching either one of them. 3) Aside from them, layabout also does the "write a long post about nothing" and then later on when the vote trading topic had died down a bit, brings it up again while bringing nothing new to the discussion. 4) I think paperscapes and LSB give me tonie vibes. paperscapes posts have been informative while also have shown that he is trying to create a positive town environment. Especially here, a good post to keep people on topic and recenter the debate about vote trading: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303505¤tpage=12#229 LSB, as well, put forth a good vote plan though I disagree with it (I like the free-trade idea better) | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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On January 30 2012 12:57 LSB wrote: Do you know for certain if your vote didn't go through? It is possible that you gave a vote to Palmar and someone gave a vote to you. I was informed by mod that I didn't trade today and to not miss it tomorrow. I sent in my trade late because I waited till I had everything all written down and figured out before I did it. By then it was too late Sorry =/ | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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chaoser
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It's only been 24 hours... | ||
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chaoser
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On January 31 2012 09:10 Paperscraps wrote: This is exactly why I wanted to wait a bit before the lynch. As soon as someone gets majority of the votes they get hammered. Oh jeez..seriously? I haven't read anything posted today yet...jesus christ...I just got home from classes/work. WTF guys... | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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Secondly, Townies in my head: Palmar - Stop being a dick, I've PMed the mods about it. There's aggressive play and then there's dickish play. You're doing the latter. Paperscape LSB Scums in my head: Dirkzor Layabout ??? Reading back on day one and taking into account VE's horrible day two claim, it's pretty obvious that VE was probably mafia. My notes on VE go: pounched at palmar's probably baiting posts…scummy? Will have to see weird un-vote of palmar. This post stands out to me as scummy, will have to see more. "I'm going to be honest - I'm also starting to think Palmar is town, but it's not based on a belief that I think he's acting scummy to test reactions. It could be, but that's not why. I think Palmar is town based almost exclusively on the fact that scummy players like Paperscraps are defending the way he's playing." Weird votes/unvotes on palamr/paper. Votes but then doesn't ramp pressure, unvotes when pressured himself on votes. Possibly scummy.Ok to lynch him or layabout[see layabout] They were pretty easy to see just by pure filter, one doesn't even need to really read them in context. layabout's wavering on lynching VE and his lively defense on him makes me very suspicious of him. Extremely scummy. I am unsure of VE's alignment. He started supporting the plan and calling you scummyhere (clicky) . He then completely abandoned the plan and his accusations against you because "scum could gain a vote through circle trading" and therefore "circle trading" was bad and you were not scummy for opposing it, i felt that this was a weak reason, (though it turns out not supporting "circle jerking" is probably a much better stance). He then got involved in more discussion about plas and such, then presented a case against paperscraps. He points out several things paperscraps has done that are anti-town and votes for him. He claimed to have not realised how long we had left and apologises. He then unvotes paperscraps for a few reasons: 1) He doesn't think he will convince anyone 2) He thinks that Paperscraps suggesting a no-lynch would be a dumb thing for scum so he is more likely town than he had previously thought. 3) He wants to go back and read more filters.. Then he hammers WBG. He says he sent a vote to LSB. He claims to have been hit during the night. This part in particular from layabout's posts is a very very weak defense of VE. I wrote on Day 1 "3) Aside from them, layabout also does the "write a long post about nothing" and then later on when the vote trading topic had died down a bit, brings it up again while bringing nothing new to the discussion." and I wish I had written more but the trend so far for layabout has been a noncommital and slight derailment of conversation followed by his sketchy defense of VE. While I do admit that it IS possible he actually does feel this way, it is more likely that his latest posts are a last minute defense of a scummy VE and is, in my opinion, scum. | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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On February 01 2012 03:57 Palmar wrote: I disagree, I don't think I've been a dick at all. So I'm not going to change a thing. Doesn't matter what you think. I've pmed the mods about it, it's up to them now. Do whatever you want, it's good play. It's also dickish play and I won't stand for that. Also, I've relooked at LSB's posts and reconsidered but if it's a choice between layabout and LSB, I would choose layabout in a heartbeat. | ||
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chaoser
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I don't think the latter if that's what you're saying | ||
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chaoser
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I have respect for players who I think are good but that doesn't mean if they don't agree with me or see things my way that they are immediately scummy. There have been many times that I have disagreed with other good townie players and is to be expected. In my opinion, Layabout on day 1 was less scummy than dirkzor or VE. It was only his posting on day two that pushed him into extremely scummy. So I can understand LSB's justification for giving him a vote. | ||
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chaoser
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I agree that either Palmar or VE have to die. Or both due to No flip. I would vote VE now, but I don't want to hammer (my vote won't be the hammer i know) until everyone have had a chance to claim the hit on either one. If no one claims it could still be a scum nightvig. How likely do you find that mafia have a nightvig? If no one claims the hit I think the jailer should claim. Because if no one claims the hit or the jail we would have lynch both to be sure. in which he discredits his OWN reason for not voting VE: "but I don't want to hammer (my vote won't be the hammer i know)" and then adds in a weird suggestion about how the jailer should claim. He then continues to criticize VE with: lol! That changed your mind? What about the late claim to get hit? Which was equally late. Yet you have been vague up until this post of VE. Just minute before you had yet to make up your mind... when he himself has been equally noncommital: VE looks way more scummy then palmar. Why not claim directly after night post? Why wait? Palmar posted instantly and VE have had more then enough time to think it over. But I still hate being unsure. I'll mindfuck myself until the game ends =( | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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He then continues to criticize VE with: lol! That changed your mind? What about the late claim to get hit? Which was equally late. Yet you have been vague up until this post of VE. Just minute before you had yet to make up your mind... I meant layabout. I'm sorry. I want to expand on this point that this was said during the ending part of the day, and along with his posts on a VE lynch, seem like a distancing act to me. He wanted to distance himself from the rest of his team but was unsure if they could still be saved or not. So he kinda did both. | ||
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chaoser
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On February 01 2012 04:25 Dirkzor wrote: The reason I did not want to vote was to not give someone else the oppotunity to hammer. I wanted the day to last longer and posted about that later aswell. That post you quoted about me criticizing VE was a post to Lay not VE. I also can't see why I was non-committal. I said I found VE way mroe scummy then Palmar and would put my vote on him - but didnt due to hammer mechanic. You yourself stated only that you didn't want to hammer the vote even though your vote wouldn't have hammered. This added reason of "I did not want to vote because I didn't want SOMEONE ELSE to hammer" was not mentioned then and so I can not willingly believe this point since it has only just now been introduced. | ||
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chaoser
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On January 31 2012 06:34 Palmar wrote: ♥ Layabout should probably be next, seeing he has the most voting power of the scum. On January 31 2012 21:09 Palmar wrote: yeah, what's better? living scum with 4 votes or dead scum with 4 votes? On February 01 2012 04:30 Palmar wrote: oh right, you corrected that. anyway, he's town for now. LSB is dying tomorrow. What's with the sudden change? I don't really see an explanation between the change in ideas. Can you expand on your reasons for thinking LSB is scum aside from the layabout vote giving event? | ||
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chaoser
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On February 01 2012 04:41 Palmar wrote: yes I can, but I don't intend to. Will you do it after night has ended? Or should we just assume it's ok to just listen and follow you now for the rest of the game? | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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On February 01 2012 05:09 risk.nuke wrote: LSB was palmars target when VE played his crazy move which to me seems to have been made out of desperation. That makes LSB look really bad. On other accounts I view both LSB and Layabout as just about the same. *Alot of act, little under the hood. *Questionable behavior. But palmar's only real argument against LSB is that he gave his vote to layabout. When compared to what layabout has done and posted, I don't think it's the same condemning thing at all. | ||
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chaoser
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LSB was palmars target when VE played his crazy move which to me seems to have been made out of desperation. That makes LSB look really bad. Hmm, I'm going to relook at this event. | ||
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chaoser
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Possibilites for VE's actions: \1. VE sacrificed himself for LSB. 2. VE is telling the truth and was hit by a vig. Note: vig has not come forward. 3. VE is telling the truth and was hit by mafia, thus Palmar is fake-claiming a hit in some elaborate mafia scheme to become virtually confirmed town. 4. VE just decided to start trolling out of nowhere. I differ to occam's razor here. Right, I'm relooking at the event right now. Even if it is 1 though it doesn't really explain the point of the sacrifice. Why would VE sacrifice himself for LSB (assuming they're teammates)? Just because LSB is "off the table" for one day doesn't mean he'll be "off the table" the next day. The non-clarity of the situation isn't making me very confident. What do you think about LSB v layabout? | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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wtf... | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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I probably won't be changing my vote. Unless layabout gives some amazing explanation. | ||
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chaoser
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On February 01 2012 10:46 Paperscraps wrote: My only reservation is that the mafia knows we will see right through this power play. WIFOM Is mafia setting up layabout or is layabout in on it? I think that they were expecting this to be THE game ending power play though. I mean...given layabout's play through the game, I'm 90% certain he's mafia. | ||
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chaoser
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Notice this he CLAIMED that he got votes from layabout. Before everyone had even claimed only 7 people had declared where there votes went. When did I claim this? I never claimed this. Also, why would it make sense for someone that I was pushing to be lynched, to give me 4 votes, if both of us were mafia?? That makes NO SENSE. Come on guys... Chaoser also didnt know about the VE lynch till it already happened he could not really have a say in it. (although maybe he would of tried to defend his mafia buddy) If people hadn't ended the day so early before I got back from class I could have said something and had my post actually matter. Seems LSB had a pretty important PR. Ok I was wrong about LSB, but I called out VE and Layabout, early in the game in day one. It wasn't even like I defended LSB that much. Look at my posts from my big one on Night 2 up till today about him. You can see a gradual natural change from townie (due to his day 1 play) to neutral. The VE random shenengians made no sense when combined with the LSB situation which threw me off as well. posting from iphone in hospital shift | ||
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chaoser
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Chaoser also didnt know about the VE lynch till it already happened he could not really have a say in it. (although maybe he would of tried to defend his mafia buddy) If people hadn't ended the day so early before I got back from class I could have said something and had my post actually matter. I said on my first big post that I was ok with either a lynch of VE or Dirzok the next day. I pointed it out before anyone (aside from palmar, pointed it out). That's just misrepresentation of facts. | ||
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chaoser
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But palmar's only real argument against LSB is that he gave his vote to layabout. When compared to what layabout has done and posted, I don't think it's the same condemning thing at all. Seems LSB had a pretty important PR. So you're saying LSB, layabout, and me are all mafia. VE too. I was ok with bussing VE day 1. And then I defended LSB over layabout, bussing layabout, when they were both mafia? How does that make sense? LSB of the Scum died during the night. He looks like he was regular mafia too so it wasn't even like I was saving someone "important". Not to mention that at that point layabout had more votes so if I was mafia I would try to save layabout over LSB. Also if I was mafia sorry for short posts, iphone is hard to quote | ||
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chaoser
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why not just tell him to give only one vote away and siphon. Why 4 like people are theorizing? | ||
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chaoser
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1) Why did he not send his votes to palmar - which meant himself? 2) Why did he not send to LSB? 3) Why did layabout not keep as many votes for himself as possible? 1) If Layabout was shot during night the votes would have probably ended at Palmar. Not a good situation for scum. 2) The pressure was on LSB and Layabout. If layabout had send votes to LSB it would just further incriminate the 2 as scumbuddies. Would not have been a problem had mafia gained majority but if they didn't the votes would be better on the last remaining scum. 3) Same as 1 and 2. If layabout was shot the votes would have been lost. It was the best of 2 worlds for scum to send the votes to chaoser. If they had gained majority it didn't matter where the votes where. If they didn't the remaining votes would be on the last scum who we hadn't caught on to yet (chaoser). So here's where you're wrong 1) False conclusion, Palmar was being shot by mafia. Even if layabout thought he was going to be shot, this point would never have been something for him to fear since, as mafia, he would already know that Palmar was going to die. 2) Two problems with this one. First, let's look at what you ultimately conclude. Your final conclusion from this situation should be "The person who is sent votes from layabout, who siphoned votes, will be incriminated". You try to frame it as "LSB getting votes from layabout would incriminate him more" but because layabout was going to siphon votes off Palmar (as is theorized), ANYONE he sent votes to would be incriminated, not just LSB. Secondly, this idea then discredits your last point of "if the mafia didn't gain majority, it would be better on the last remaining scum.". This point also doesn't make sense if you think I'm the last remaining scum. a) I would be put under suspicion when I previously wasn't. If we were both scum, why would he do something that essentially "outted" me thus losing the game for the mafia team? It would be more logical to place it on LSB, who was already under suspicion. b) If layabout was indeed scared that he might get shot during the night as you purposed during the night, why would any other mafia give votes to layabout/palmar then? It would make more sense, if LSB and I were mafia, to give vots to each other, not layabout. Just like how you're saying layabout giving votes to palmar is "not a good situation for scum" since layabout might have had the "fear of death", the logic should then carry over to ANY mafia member giving to palmar/layabout given your first conclusion. Why did you only think about "fear of death" to explain your first conclusion but leave it out here? 3) Once again you bring up this idea that layabout was scared of getting shot and losing votes. This again contradicts your idea that if this really was the case, that LSB and I (if I was mafia) would, as part of the plan, give palamr/layabout our votes. You are clearly cherrypicking logical points and trying to paint something that fits your narrative. However, your narrative sucks cause of all the logical holes in it. I've been the most outspoken about you as scum and now it seems I finally understand the final gambit. Layabout giving votes to me was an act of incrimination. The siphon was a way of getting rid of votes. The plan this whole time was to get rid of votes. The less votes there are, the easier to gain majority. This fits with the "fear of death" that you so nicely pointed out idea. Layabout was fearing death. He knew that him and LSB would probably either get shot (if there was vigis) or get lynched the next day. Looking back on it, I doubt he actually thought he could get majority. So the idea was to siphon votes, get shot. Also, place votes on me, the one who has been most outspoken of dirkzor, "incriminating me", and then get ME lynched. This gets rid of not only however many votes he would be stealing but also get rid of however votes I would end up having. More importantly though it would get rid of the person most vocal about dirkzor. As can be seen in dirkzor's shitty holey post against me, he has an agenda, and will do whatever it takes, to get me lynched. even use bad logic. If you look through my filter, you'll see that given what we know, I'd be the LEAST likely to be mafia. I pointed out problems with Dirkzor, VE, and layabout in my day one post. I said I'd be ok with and would have pushed a VE lynch for Day 2. I was ok with and would have pushed a layabout lynch for Day 3. I have also been as thoughtful in my posts as possible. I've taken stances and been very detailed about my thoughts. Dirkzor on the other hand, made a shitty case against prplhz, and aside from one post about LSB, has done absolutely nothing for town. | ||
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chaoser
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He gradually distanced himself from layabout the more lay was painted red by town. Once again misinformation. I already pointed out my suspicions against layabout on day 1. Are you saying that I bussed pretty much every single on of my teammates? Things talking in favor of Chaoser: He have distanced himself from Layabout throughout the game. Things talking againts chaoser: He gradually distanced himself from layabout the more lay was painted red by town. Either you can frame it as "Chaoser was suspicious of layabout since day 1" for a positive or "He has been distancing himself from layabout since the start of the game". You can't use the same point as both a townie thing AND a scummy thing. That makes no sense. Also, the idea that "VE was already palmars target from day 1." as a negative for me is ridiculous. From what we know, mafia was going to kill Palmar Night 1. Had palmar actually died that night, his case against VE would have probably died as well (In fact, Palmar's target at the start of Day 2 wasn't even VE, it was LSB). So why would I feel the need to bus a teammate if I was mafia if the person who was targetting him was going to die, and by his own submission "Due to him being scum, and no one believing me VE is scum.", no one else believed VE was scum? | ||
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chaoser
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The "fear of death" I talk about is indeed just that, a fear of dying. I'll see you guys today, work/classes calls! | ||
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chaoser
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Your first post where you said you thought VE was scum was AFTER night 1. So you knew that palmar had survived when you bussed VE. In the same post you said small things about layabout (wall of texting). You never really called him scummy until way later when palmar had painted him bright red. Thats why i think you are gradually finding layabout more and more scum in the same pace as town finds him more and more scum. On January 30 2012 11:00 chaoser wrote: Ok so I'm finally caught up (on start of Night 1) and my thoughts: I replaced into the game. You can take my statement for what it's worth but I did only catch up to the start of night 1/end of day 2. As can be seen in my next post, I only knew palmar survived after my first post. On January 30 2012 11:54 chaoser wrote: Back from running. The shot on palmar pretty much confirms him for me.i gave my vote to him but it didnt go through Unless you're saying I set up a bus on a teammate, misrepresented what I knew so that some time in the future I could go back and give an excuse that I actually didn't know palmar had died yet when I made my first post. That is so convoluted it doesn't make any sense. I think I'm right... you can only prove me wrong by dying. And you will =) Pretty sure a no flip isn't going to prove anything. | ||
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chaoser
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On February 02 2012 04:30 Paperscraps wrote: Good call Jackal. Mafia self-targets layabout, then scum driver switches Palmar and layabout. Thus medic is really on layabout, not Palmar. Even if medic did WIFOM, it wouldn't have mattered. so I guess the question arises, is LSB or Layabout the bus driver? Or is the final mafia the busdriver? | ||
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chaoser
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I think I'm right... you can only prove me wrong by dying. And you will =) Pretty sure a no flip isn't going to prove anything. Or are you saying I'm the final mafia and thus game will end? If I get lynched and game doesn't end (it won't cause I'm townie), please be sure to lynch Dirzok next. | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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Aside from me though Paper, I would like to know your scale of scumminess. If possible. | ||
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chaoser
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This is a good attitude to have. If you are right about Dirkzor it is auto win for town either way. Eh, it's more like I'm too lazy to argue the point and I don't think the mafia has a chance of pulling out a win anymore. Not a "good attitude" by any measure of the word though. Replacing in and trying to help clearly did not do much. Mafia can feel good about themselves getting rid of top good players in the game though. WBG lynch was horrible... | ||
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chaoser
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chaoser
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On February 05 2012 10:22 Jackal58 wrote: I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.  Nah yo, we all played badly. VE's weird votes/unvotes day one were REALLY suspicious. I didn't even know who was on the mafia during my replacement read-through and I caught him on it. Also LSB switching on his plan was really bad. Foolishness/Ver would have easily caught that and owned us in the face with it. And I should have bussed both of them at the end of day 3 instead of trying to save LSB. I feel like that plus the town thinking layabout was mafia + him giving me four fucking votes pushed me over the edge and made town think I was mafia -_-. I really didn't expect there to be a second vigi either and had there not been, mafia would have won the moment layabout with his 10 votes got voted off. My plan was to destroy as many votes as possible and then using bussing/Jackal's vote buying powers to win the game with control over majority votes. Ah well. I don't think my none-presence in the game should have been read as "Scummy" though. In responsibility Mafia I barely posted, electing to make big posts at the end of the day and everyone thought I was townie. | ||
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