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The post serves to help clarify the situation and give town some potentially useful information, clarity and information are both valuable to town. Ideally it also lowers suspicion on myself, which seeing as I know I am town, is also good for town. Also, as I said, it is NOT WIFOM if the goal is to roleblock. Not doing it doesn't roleblock me, it isn't like if I was the demon hunter I'd go "better not send in a night action in case I get roleblocked!" Roleblocking stops someone from using their role if roleblock them, and doesn't if you don't do it.
WIFOM is they killed x, he was suspicious of y! Does that mean y is scum, or they want us to think y is scum? Yes, it is possible they wanted to increase suspicion on me as well, and that part is subject to WIFOM'ing. (They wanted to make me more suspicious, so that actually makes me less suspicious, but they would know that so it is more suspicious....etc etc etc)
You haven't said what the "potentially useful information is" yet you say that you have given it and that it was valuable to town.
You don't know what the goal is! You can'teven know for certain who palmar transported (unless you are a demon and he told you or you are the channeller).
I suggest that the whole thing is subject to WIFOM-ing. It is called "Why i think i was put in Purgatory", what exactly can you follow that up with that is wifom!!
Wifom is also: did Palmar tansported HoD? why? Does that mean HoD is scum with him? Did Palmar think he was the other scumteam? Did Palmar wish to increase suspicion?
since your post provides answers to those questions and attempts to explain them then yes it is WIFOM.
It isn't helpful.
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@ Dirkzor You have made some anti-town suggestions you are under pressure
I really do not like the ##Vote Cwave, AHA i got you cwave! ##Unvote play
+you weren't on my Likey town list anyway
+what kind of respectable townie doesn't know monty python?
Not sure if i have time to come up with a detailed case today particularly as it's only the start of day2, and there are better candidates.
(thats means you risk.nuke)
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@ Hod
On January 10 2012 03:08 layabout wrote:
Suspicious bastards:
risk.nuke If you do not know why he is here then you aren't reading the thread
Refallen Some found him scummy day1 but the lie about voting erandorr is one of the most anti-town acts thusfar
Tyrran Not posted a whole lot, persistently called scum but has done nothing to help town nor suggest townie.
Dirkzor I literally just wrote why (he is a fairly new addition)
RoL For suggesting a plan that could easily have caused lylo day 4 with no blues and his actions around lynch-time.
Jackal? His actions around lynch time and lack of justification and lack of willingness to discuss. (least scummy)
(there is town there but i think these players should receive heightened attention)
If you had been reading the thread the least obvious would have been Tyrran because i haven't really talked about him up until this point.
The others i feel i have already justified in a way that makes your questioning redundant.
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Remember this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13058271
Do you agree/disagree? Think it is good/bad? Think it does/doesn't need changes?
Since there have been some votes already i am going to start off by noting this:
Current Vote Count:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote:
Vote count for the Day 2 Lynch.
With 16 alive, 9 votes are required to lynch.
Current votes:
Dirkzor (1): Jackal58
risk.nuke (1): Bluelightz, Refallen, -Bluelightz
Cwave (0): Dirkzor, -Dirkzor
The Day 2 deadline is at January 12 2012 10:00 KST. (That's approximately 2 days, 5:04:51 from now.)
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@HoD
If you wanted me to provide 100% of my reasoning then you should have asked that.
Care to anything about it?
I had said enough previously for your vague question of "care to anything about it" to be redundant.
Lists without reasons are pretty useless filler.
You call it empty useless filler.
Your posting today has been empty useless filler.
Unless you have anything valid and worthy of my attention to say to me then I am going to ignore you for as long as I feel like/
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@ Dirkzor anti-town actions:
from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13054091
Why would you make chaos on purpose to switch from a guy that you find scummy to a guy you find more scummy? Asks a question that answers itself.(you want to lynch the most scummy player)
On January 08 2012 21:46 syllogism wrote:
Hello Dirkzor. Are you scum or just stupid? Do you realize that I'm the one who started the risk wagon and pretty much the reason he was sitting at 9 votes (-1 hammer) for something like several hours? Do you think my plan was to bus my team mate for the whole day, wait until he was almost lynched and then do a last minute switch to someone else? Remember, anyone could have hammered him at any point before the switch. How likely do you think it is for scum to bus a team mate in a setup like this? What was the motivation? Here is an explanation about why what you suggested in in the post is very unlikely.
On January 08 2012 21:55 Dirkzor wrote:
I might be stupid... but with a 2 team setup they could both _not_ be on your team. I can just not find any real reason for you to switch unless risk's defence convinced you or Erandorr did something to enhance his case. Neither of which happened.
I realized you have pointed towards risk the whole day and criticized his first post. It only enhanced my question: Why the change? Call yourself stupid.People less likely to listen to you. Harder for you to persuade people when you are right.
Whilst it was strange that syllo changed if you think that syllo thought he was more scummy then you already had the answer.
Here:
On January 09 2012 04:45 Dirkzor wrote:
See, all i have is your word for it.
But i guess we can lynch him and if he flips town we lynch you...
Then:
On January 09 2012 07:06 Dirkzor wrote:
I don't like his last few posts. I just feel that either syllo, palmar or jackal are scum. (or 2 of the 3) on the account on how they interact.
But I'm way to tired now to try to figure out who.
Logic of, if Player X is town then Player Y and Z are scum because of how they interact, is bad.
Given that town generally don't know the alignment of players they interact with and scum can choose how they interact with players they also know are scum, they can deliberately behave in such as way as to make you think that they cannot both be scum. So it is dangerous to make inferences of the kind, well if x flips <something> then y must be <something>. It can lead to falsely beleving scum are near confirmed town or lynching two townies.
Here:
On January 09 2012 20:32 Dirkzor wrote:
I don't think Risk is a bad lynch target. But I wouldn't mind hitting Cwave.
Then:
On January 09 2012 20:37 Dirkzor wrote:
Actually:
##Vote Cwave
Either he is scum with palmar or he is a townie with a bad read (on me).
Then:
On January 10 2012 03:30 Dirkzor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:36 Jackal58 wrote:On January 09 2012 11:30 Grackaroni wrote:
Yeah I wouldn't put too much importance on Palmar's list there spaackle.
Also I'm going to assume that Palmar was the person that put you in purgatory HoD. It just makes more sense for the Channeler to protect syllo.
It makes more sense for Palmar to protect a teammate than to try to block a blue. I think Palmar sent Syllo to purgatory. Is anybody corrupted? You still think syllo is on palmars team? If yes, so you think I'm on that team aswell? Because thats a crap theory. You just think i'm palmars scumbuddy because he called me town several times the first day - or? I don't want to lynch Cwave. I wanted him to think for himself! + Show Spoiler +On January 08 2012 22:02 Dirkzor wrote:
I'm looking through Cwave's filter.
He looks fishy. Not only for saying he thinks i'm scum several times with the only reasoning is a weak ass "case" about my first post and because It found a difference in the OP and Zbot vote count post. But more so because he havent said anything else the entire first day. He have spend the entire day 1 pointing out the obvious:
RoL arent posting,
Jackal have done nothing but hate palmar (But i must admit i found his post on Jackal amusing =))
He haven't taken a stance on anything and voted Erandorr with the reason that he is lurking.
I'll keep an eye on him... And that he have. Within the last ½ day he have provided not 1, but 3 post with original thoughts. Thats more then he have done before. And the fact that his conclusions are okay (well not one about AoD, but he already pulled that one back) he actually comes out looking good. It was a pure pressure vote and it worked. Also i noted that Tyrran came after me. Totally justified since all I did was voting for Cwave with no real reason. But having in mind that he knows he is already under suspicion he wants to find another target. Lastly I want to look at this post: + Show Spoiler +On January 09 2012 21:16 Refallen wrote:Well I decided to take a look at Cwave since Dirk is voting for him. CwaveShow nested quote +We also have a seer who in my opinion has the most important power of the game, namely the identification of angels! As of such, please don't roleclaim for now as mentioned in the pre-game discussion for with 3 factions in this game, 2 factions will instantly try to kill you. Ok, weird role to choose the most important power of. Unless you're a demon. Show nested quote +
I think this is a good hypothetical question to answer.
One everyone should answer!
Dikrzor for me at the moment.
For you Palmar & Syllo, who would you pop right now if you had to?
Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 05:17 Palmar wrote:
I don't have all night risk.nuke
Cwave, what do you think about risk? Do you think his plan was reasonable? What plan do you mean?
On January 06 2012 12:45 risk.nuke wrote:
I don't want to lynch palmar because first of all he is Palmar and secondly he seems to be missing.
Why should we lynch the (imo) best player in the game in a 2 mafia team setup day 1.
Not too bad of a plan since you do tend to create good ripples in the water. And with ripples comes information. Or this one? Buddying with Palmar, possible scumbuddies? The exchange about risk.nuke and his plan sounds especially contrived. Show nested quote +@ Risknuke. 6 voted on you at the moment and it seems 5 people haven't voted yet, including myself.
Other then your defense that you "got annoyed with meta in the face", any reason i shouldn't vote you?
Seems such a waste to hang someone like you for information as suggested by other people in here.
While i await your asnwer im parking my vote on Erandorr. Main reason is this post which puts Erandorr along side RoL for me in terms of bad/useless.
##VOTE: Erandorr Not wanting to vote risk.nuke? I'm going to say that if we lynch risk.nuke and he flips demon, Cwave is most probably the last one. The first point he makes is the exact same one i made earlier. How is asking and answering Palmars question buddying up to him? I fail to see that. And the part about risk's plan Refallen actually cut the end of the post from Cwave where he answered the question from Palmar. Palmar never clarified which plan he was talking about - it was kinda obvious what he meant but it could also easily be misunderstood if cwave just went through risk's filter looking for a plan. Last Refallen conclude that if Risk is demon Cwave must be too. While it is possible that palmar was bussing risk I find it unlikely. So Refallen is just trying to jump an easy wagon? His case just seemed forced as if he wanted Cwave to appear scummy because I already voted for him. Either way I'm unvoting Cwave. That vote did what was intended.
Should be obvious.
You vote to lynch. You Lynch to kill scum. Otherwise don't vote. (cough cough BH)
Bad/anti town play
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I think you missed out one of the major crticisms of the plan ...
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Do you think RoL beleived his plan was good or bad for town?
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Essentially, If he believes his plan is good for town then regardless of whether it is good or bad it is not scummy to suggest the plan.
If he believes his plan is bad for town, then it follows that it is scummy.
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@Jackal, Wiggles Syllogism
can one of you comment on/explain how we should react to RoL + his plan to BH? i have to go.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13057359
quote is syllo
what is important is how RoL expects/ want the plan to impact the game.
we don't know this so we have to use what he says to decide what we think his aim was and whether that is scummy null or pro town.
It is more than I see RoL's plan as anti-town therefore RoL is scum.
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haha
Blazinghand, 10 votes just wrote FoS!
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do you understand my point?
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I will be voting for risk nuke.
I am going to wait until closer to the deadline before i vote.
I dislike the reasons given for lynching RoL.
Now I need to go do some work.
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careful adding more votes, it would be stupid to end the day so soon
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risk if you want to troll could you at least be funny?
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On January 10 2012 08:55 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Wow, Blazinghand, you beat me to it. (Also sorry for not being around, University just started back up) I was basically going to post something like: Show nested quote +RoL: - Makes excuses for inactivity all of day 1, promising to contribute, but never doing it.
- Shows up at the end of the day to cast his vote, when the lynch is already decided
- Is active during the night, pushing a plan that is arguably anti-town
- Disappears again once day starts, and has yet to contribute a single read to the game
##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:29 layabout wrote:
Essentially, If he believes his plan is good for town then regardless of whether it is good or bad it is not scummy to suggest the plan.
If he believes his plan is bad for town, then it follows that it is scummy. This is a very weak criticism, as RoL will always say that he thought his plan was good for town, especially if he is scum. What you're saying only holds under the assumption he is town, and we can all know he is town, which we obviously don't. Pushing a bad plan doesn't automatically make you scum, but you have to look at the plan, the player, and how they're pushing it. There's also the difference between a bad plan, and an anti-town plan. A bad plan just won't work, an anti-town plan will hurt the town.
I like the way you criticise a simplification of my point and then say my point in another form.
I never said we ask him, so that is not a valid criticism of my criticism.
If we want to analyse the plan we need to do the following:
We need to look a the player and look at what he is saying.
We need to make a judgements on:
- What does the player suggesting the plan think the consequences of suggesting or following the plan will be
- How they want us to perceive their plan
- How they tell us it will work in practice
- How we think it will work in practice+ Show Spoiler +
-is it good/bad?
-is it pro/anti town?
-we do this by asking questions and exploring possibilities "what will happen if..." "or what if..."
-we also do this by looking at consequences etc..
- how do they defend the plan?
- do they often suggest plans?
- how does this look compared to their other plans?
we can also look at possible motivations for suggesting the plan, and how these might change with different alignments etc...
We have to look at a lot of different things in order to decide upon whether his plan makes him more likely to be scum.
jumping from Is active during the night, pushing a plan that is arguably anti-town to
##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD
is logically unsound.
What is more important is whether RoL beleived it was anti-town when he suggested it (if he didn't then it is null). If you think he did believe it was anti-town we then have to look at his actions more closely to find evidence to support that ideas and ways in which RoL tries to push an anti-town plan.
The judgements that i have made about his plan (i haven't shared them) have lead me to the conclusion that is is not scummy.
+i might post about risk later or tomorrow if i feel like it
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On January 11 2012 02:22 Dirkzor wrote:
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
I had a really long post about RoL, Tyrran and Risk, then i closed the tab it was in on mistake =/. I don't want to write it again now.
The short version. RoL is a bad lynch, Risk is a good lynch, Tyrran is the best lynch.
I'm going to eat now and then i'll try to rewrite it.
@Lay want me to answer your antitown behaviour case? Just seems like we moved on to someelse and an answer to that would disrupt this discussion. I will if you, or others, want me to.
No i only pointed it out because you asked.
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On January 10 2012 19:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 19:45 Refallen wrote:
And the alignment of the people on the wagon plays no part in how likely someone is about to point out scum mirite?
Also, if you're still on that hidden vote thing, I derped, I said it, I stopped doing it.
You don't know the alignment of the people on the wagon either; but here's the thing-- if RoL is scum, I don't give a dick about who agrees with me or not. Maybe he's the 2nd demon and angels are trying to wipe the demons quick. Maybe he's an angel and the two demons are trying to get back into the game. Or maybe all that matters is my analysis is spot-on, he's definitely scum, and he still hasn't come here to defend himself. If you have a problem with my analysis, say it. If not, get out of my way.
"It"
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EPT
