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Bluelightz has a complete absence of play for us to analyse and draw reasonable conclusions from.
However i will say this:
The town performance in student mafia was exceptional.
Every town player through their posting made themselves easily identifyable as town from day number 1.
On day 1 BH voted for lots of players to pressure them into contributing,
The way in which most players made these contributions was though lists of all of their reads.
+ Show Spoiler +After i subbed in and argued against the thread for the entire time Velinath agreed with my read and BH placed the final vote to nail the mafia roleblocker xtfftc.
Bluelightz who had replaced in as scum then conceeded the game.
Overall it was not evident that he was putting a lot of thought into his post. His posts lacked a confident tone.
I think it is extremely easy to see why Bluelightz may have thought that posting all of his reads regularly would be a very pro-town thing to do.
You could try to WIFOM this by saying that if one could easily understand how BL might think that then he should play up to his noobishness and do that because it makes him look like a new player, who is trying to do what they believe is a good thing for town to do.
I think BL has a high chance of flipping town, should we be dumb enough to vote for him
link to day1 list-ville: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12587434
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On January 18 2012 05:03 Zephirdd wrote:TBH most of these are valid only during the first few days. It's been fifteen days already. Why are you trying so hard to defend him? I already gave up on him, and I'll just wait for his defense tomorrow after today's lynch(no-lynch would only benefit angels on this scenario IMO).
I am explaining that i think he is town and that lynching him would be a poor decision.
If you cannot see how some of the statements about using meta on bluelightz could be relevant then maybe you haven't been reading your own filter:
On January 18 2012 04:35 Zephirdd wrote:
Good, so he should realize that bluelightz look scum here, unless I'm missing something. I didn't observe that game(was busy reading Mafia XLVII in order to catch up just to die the next day), but scum BL from student and BL from here look incredibly similar.
Having the opinion from someone familiar to his meta would be great.
+ Show Spoiler +fuck it's on this page and it was 30 minutes ago
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Well seeing as nobody other than you has even said they would consideer voting HoD and seeing as there are no cases against living players i would like to lynch Refallen because a no-lynch cannot possibly kill an angel and we need to kill an angel.
Reffallen in particular because he has been misleading and outright lied in his statements about possible roles/actions and because i think that other lynches have less of a chance of hitting angels
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if you insist on pussyfooting, could you please use your angel wings to fly to the gallows?
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@BH
if you are implying that we should be relying on anything other than claims made in the thread i feel it is my duty to remind you that you are playing mafia, and that analysis is forbidden.
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i am prepared,
but we should all agree before anyone changes their vote.
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Of all of the lynches so far, that was probably the worst-thought out, and the luckiest.
+ the LSB guide is out-dated:
AnalysisThis is the most important part of the game. This is how you catch scum. It is incredibly difficult. However, with enough practice and a bit of work, you can do it too! LogicLogic is incredibly important. One of the biggest parts, yet the most underrated part, is well thought out plan. For example, this game
On a lighter note, dead angel! we got this.
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I think that i made a ton of mistakes and that if i had just taken more independent decisions and risks then we (the demons) could have taken the win.
I am not sure whether to be angry or amused as many of these decisions were based upon incomplete information.
After day 1 i feel that my posting got substantially worse, in part this was due to IRL pressures that i was avoiding but a major part was frustration at towns's play.
On day 2:
Concealing a risk lynch would have been really powerful, It would have really confused town as he was expected to flip scum, and it would have meant that later on in the game there would have been real uncertainty about how many angels/demons were still alive, that we could have used to our advantage. I did not conceal because i was unable to contact my team during the day and i did not anticipate risk being lynched before i got computer access the next day, so i decided to wait, discuss with my team and then decide.
On day 3:
I basically prevented the sage from being hammered. TT
I concealed the lynch but as the deadline drew near i began to play nation red with my friends during the free weekend, and didn't think about the implications of the RoL channeller claim.
During the night, i derped hard and posted a big "lets lynch HoD case", the problem with this was that it was almost completely defeated by the night actions.
On day 4:
During the day i am fairly sure some of my responses to the accusations against me would have shown my red colours not that anybody bothered to point them out.
For some reason i was able to get a town vote on HoD, be called a demon by most of the thread and then get town players to vote for Refallen.
At the time i had no idea that he was the demonhunter.
Tyrran was offline
I suggest you read this in our qt for timestamps but this was the worst moment for me in the entire game:
+ Show Spoiler +layabout
Tyrran
if you were here we could lynch..
I'm here.
vote him
whatif he is the demon hunter?
do you think i should wait to force the vote?
If he is demon hunter, its the best thing htat can happen for us. Town lose their KP against us. We can twist the AoD/Sage, in dramatically increases our chance of winnning
how long should i wait between now/ you voting and changing BH's vote?
i need to leave soon,
please say something
I voted for Refallen
i immediately respond
i should vote
immediately
1 cycle after
later??
since tyrran had posted his vote in the thread HoD unvoted to prevent the demons from hammering despite the fact that he had voted on the premise of "a lynch is more likely to hit an angel than a no-lynch"
what a twat
I then stopped posting to see what would happen, hoping that the angels would realise that lynchng a non-angel would save them completely from the lynch.
Before i went to sleep I put blazinghands vote on Jackal.
I am pleased that he was then lynched and flipped angel because i feel that the angels had the power to stop town from winning but instead killed us and gave town the win.
After the lynch I should have tried to communicate with the Angel of death to prevent them from handing town the win.
Now angel team:
Can you please explain to me why you acted how you did on day 4 and night 4?
I don't understand how you could have done anything less-optimal than what you actually did.
-You decide not to support a lynch on a player not on your team
-You then bus one of your own when you could have played for a no-lynch
-In the night you either target BH (who was the optimal choice for being twisted) instead of kiling HoD who was basically confirmed
-You allow Refallen's kill to go through so that he also become confirmed.
I am disappointed in how the game ended because as soon as i flipped demon and there were no other kills, town should win from that position every time but different actions would have meant that town could not freely vote for fear of the demons hammering and then gaining vote control the angel would have to play to eliminate confirmed town but as the same time not allow demons to kill them.
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Does anybody think that this could become a reliable means for finding scum if is undergoes some adjusting?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13121038
+that was not my demon hunter breadcrumb: (click the spoiler in the last post)
This was my demon Hunter crumb:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 05:26 layabout wrote:Grackaroni: In this post his writes a pile of nothing to call HoD scum. my comments have been italicised Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 04:06 Grackaroni wrote:HarbingerofDoom is my scum pick. He was one of the first people into the game and took a lot of time to comment on the setup. (this is what the majority of his posts are about) -a completely null tellAt the start of the game he asks for us to give strategies for demons/angels which to me seemed weird from a town perspective and not beneficial to town. -asking to not reveal game winning strategies for the other team is weird for town?this strikes me as counter-intuitiveIn Newbie mini Mafia he was very active and spent a lot of time scum hunting. So far there has been no scumhunting done by him -no scumhunting halfway into day 1, applies to a large number of players in this game and isn't necessarily a scummy thing to do.On January 05 2012 15:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
So how would people feel about lynching Palmar or Erandorr if they don't start posting more? Both have posted nothing of worth so far, Palmar was even active elsewhere on the mafia forum today, and both are known for doing very little as scum. He seems fairly content with lynching a lurker. (Palmar/Errandorr are the only people he's pushed lynches for) Together this paints a picture to me, he is one of the earlier players to sign up, he was here right when the game started, he had the time to post quite a few things about the setup which tells us nothing about his allignment. In another game when he is town he is more active and does a lot of scumhunting but in this game he wants a lurker lynch.(granted it did include some meta with it) He has the time to post but chooses not to. I'll wait for more posts. -here he accepts HoD's early posting is null tell-he offers weak "meta analysis" based off of a single game-decides to wait for more information, likely because the case isn't strong enough to justify voting Here, he decides that the person that he thinks should die right now, which is equivalent to his best lynch target for now is not HoD but Bluelightz Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 04:24 Grackaroni wrote:
As for the Palmar question I would shoot Bluelightz because he could easily be mafia, there's much less downside to shooting him than a potentially useful town player who I think is scum and there's no way of knowing his allignment unless he takes a stance on something.
However the lynch is used for Information as well as killing scum, it wouldn't give the most information but more than I previously thought as a lot of people seem split on whether he is scum or not.
Question for Syllogism, Why do you dislike lynching BlueLightz?
Is it because you have gotten a town read on him, (if yes plz do share), or was it just because of the way I presented his lynch. Says he would lynch bluelightz mostly because "there's much less downside to shooting him than a potentially useful town player who I think is scum and there's no way of knowing his allignment unless he takes a stance on something" which is an awful reason to kill a player. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 04:26 Grackaroni wrote:On January 06 2012 04:23 Blazinghand wrote:
If I knew 100% Bluelightz was town, I'd be focusing other players.
There's a difference between saying I wouldn't mind if he is town and it might be good to kill, just because even if he is town he could be useless.
"Oh but Blazinghand I am grackaroni and have no understanding of nuance please explain"
Oh, Grackaroni, you are always so self-derprecating. Here I will help you.
If Bluelights is lynched and flips scum, that would be sweet.
If Bluelightz flips town, i'm gonna mind a lot. I'm gonna be pissed because he played like shitty dick. It will still have been the right move to have lynched him based on the info we had, and even if he is town, you have to admit he's useless-- indistinguishable from scum and actively hurtful if he, somehow, lives to LYLO.
So I guess my question for you, Captain Grack Sparrow, is, do you really think I'd be happy lynching a townie day 1? Or do you think I'm just willing to accept the consequences of my actions, like a goddamn man, make a case, like a goddamn man, and ACTUALLY VOTE AND DO STUFF.
fine. ##Vote: HarbingerofDoomBut with that I am off, Will be back in a few hours though, I promise  votes that we lynch and kill a player other than the player he said he would most like to kill 2minutes earlierthis is a glaring contradiction. I cannot understand why he would post such a thing as town. a universe in which those actions make sense would be a universe that sucks big ol' hairy BearBollocks. It seems that he could have decided to vote because Blazinghand told him to do something and he responded by voting, but all i can see is weak/barely even reasoning behind him thinking HoD is scum and nothing of worth to justify a vote. I do not think we should let players vote for such bad reasons. I think the vote is scummy. Does anybody thing his defence in this post is adequate? ( i do not ) On January 07 2012 01:19 layabout wrote:WoW that is quite a mess! EBWOP: Show nested quote +What if Wiggles is a demon/angel and Palmar is not on his team?
Then Wiggles knows that Palmar is either a townie or the other faction out of Angel/Demon. And that Palmars win condition will require him to kill Wiggles. (except in the True love exception)
If Palmar has a power role and thinks that Wiggles is an angel/demon then he will likely try to investigate or slay wiggles, with his or his team-mates night actions. Alternately he might try to lynch him later on using forced votes and/or make a case against him. None of these actions are good for Wiggles.
As someone regarded as a strong scumhunter Palmar is likely to be the one to figure out that Wiggles is scum and then convince others that wiggles is scum.
In short if Wiggles is scum and Palmar isn't on his team, then Palmar presents a threat to Wiggles and killing him early would help Wiggles team. Jackal, would you maybe do something? On January 08 2012 07:03 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 06:33 Mr. Wiggles wrote:risk.nuke, does what Palmar say accurately reflect what you had in mind with your "plan"? "I'll comment on the situation and see how people respond". Wait a minute! I think I might have also been using this plan! What are the chances? risk.nuke are you spying on my brain?hmmm... how should i test this?... @risk.nuke What is my favorite race in fantasy genres? + Show Spoiler +if he says dwarf i will send a complaint to zona because he must be spying on me
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@ Zephird the post was a monty python reference, risk.nuke, dirkzor and i already went through this here and here after the post that can be found here. If you want to look it up click here.
Which leads me to my main problem this game:
A large number of people clearly were not reading the thread!. It felt like town players were really not making themselves useful or trying to catch scum. I think that Town should have lost but they got lucky with the actions of power roles.
Additionally:
- We should not have switched from risk to erandor
- We were right to lynch risk
- There were too many lurkers! Grackaroni was able to escape pressure at the start of the game by hiding amongst the lurkers.
- The actual case on RoL was poor. It did not show how what he had done was scummy.
- Damn you angels!
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I do not thing that we should chose actions that "aren't that bad"
+it resulted in lynching risk.nuke based on day 1 accusations and a long and boring night which did not help town,
@BH I still do not think that you showed how what he did was so scummy, i think that his actions day3 were a much better reason to lynch him. I think you made yourself very clearly town and therefore played better than most of the thread.
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So you do not think that there was any way that somebody who thinks differently to you might think that, that plan could have been good for town?
Establishing a group of players that are town is very powerful, do you not think that he could have felt that the plan in that or an adjusted form could have established that?
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On January 22 2012 02:48 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the plan was bad for town. I think you would only suggest the plan as scum. Establishing a group of players that are town is powerful, but singling out our blues will just get them killed. In fact, I think everyone agreed it was a terrible plan that hurt town. Why would RoL suggest this plan? Because he is scum.
The logic there seems impeccable.
EDIT: Like, given that everyone thought the plan hurt town, I'm amazed we didn't just dogpile him and lynch him right away after he suggested it. Srsly.
I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan.
I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms.
I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town.
I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment)
Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum.
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i would like to complain about this:
Can a corrupted town player ever cast a vote?
A corrupted town player starts the day able to vote normally, but whoever controls his/her vote can change the vote at any time (or can cast the vote if the corrupted player hasn't voted yet), and once that happens, the corrupted town player cannot change his/her "own" vote in any way.
Night ended at about 1:30 AM for me i could not stop BH from voting.
Since the vote would update after 5 minutes and at certain times there were a limited number of players that would have access to the thread, i was not able to change BH's vote around without risking being caught.
Since Tyrran was offline he could not stop the CT from voting for him.
I think it would have been reasonable for any demon to be able change the vote. Or to change the vote with a reasonable delay.
Since the courier died n1 and we still had chances to win i am not going to complain about balance which seems about right, but i would like to say that:
The corrupt mechanic was not particularly useful this game.
- We risked outing ourselves by voteswitching at certain times
- In the event that we hit an angel or the sage we waste it, which costs 2 night actions
- If we corrupt a player then can the be lynched or killed by angels and we would lose the vote
- In order to deny the player the vote we need to place down a votefor no reason
- The main mechanism for punishing CT claims was the angelic acolyte
- A player we corrupt becomes a detective that can find us and town blues, but we as demons cannot really fake-claim.
+ Show Spoiler +As far as i could tell we could either claim and then use transport to protect from the claimer from nightactions, conceal a blues lynch and then claim that (but have difficulty proving the role) or hope that a role had flipped ??? and claim that
- I think it would have been cool if the demons could send an anonymous message to corrupted town per night to mess with them.
- I think we should have been able to corrupt night 1, and then every 2 days instead
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BH you have yet again completely missed the point i am making
i blame you for this:
On January 13 2012 05:29 layabout wrote:You simply cannot use Prove in this context. You have not proven anything. DOES ANYBODY ACTUAL POSSES THE ABILITY TO THINK!
But it was still a bad plan, and he was still pushing it. Why would you push a bad plan? Because you are scum.
You cannot go from bad plan to scum.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13091508
On January 22 2012 02:53 syllogism wrote:
RoL still insists that he thought the plan favors angels AND town, so if that is truly his take on it, it's a null tell
i am giving up.
your stubbornness is unfathomable
Edit: It doesn't even matter what his alignment is/was
Edit: all this editing is so fun, maybe i should go back and put more spoilers into my posts
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Answer honestly
Poll: How much of the thread did you read?All of it, and a few filters, twice (5) 36% All of it, and every filter multiple times! (4) 29% All of it, once, maybe a filter or two (2) 14% Most of it (1) 7% Not much at all (1) 7% I was posting, isn't that enough? (1) 7% Some of it (0) 0% 14 total votes Your vote: How much of the thread did you read? (Vote): All of it, and every filter multiple times!
(Vote): All of it, and a few filters, twice
(Vote): All of it, once, maybe a filter or two
(Vote): Most of it
(Vote): Some of it
(Vote): Not much at all
(Vote): I was posting, isn't that enough?
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EPT
