Pick Your Power Interesting! - Page 3

prplhz

Denmark8045 Posts

October 21 2011 15:14 GMT

#1392

syllogism is on to something, if the setup suddenly isn't open anymore it shouldn't be misleading. put some question marks instead and maybe in future games, totally remove that thing and only state how many there are at the beginning ... people can keep track themselves.

hider isn't really a townie role but neither were ackbar or bomber .. regardless, you're dead so too bad if you're a townie.

btw, if you think sinani needs to be shot, why are you so sure he's mafia? he never said anything, and if dreamflower kills a townie dreamflower dies .. why are you so sure he's mafia that you'd want dreamflower to hit him?

prplhz

Denmark8045 Posts

October 23 2011 11:16 GMT

#1519

Here's my POV of this game if Protactinium wants it for a writeup or whatever.

+ Show Spoiler [POV] +

Day0: Confused about all this role picking stuff, people are gonna pick whatever they want anyway. Also in my house, #1 and #4 pick but people pick whatever they want for what I consider silly reasons. In hindsight maybe deconduo could have soaked up some hits but he was unlucky to get checked and nuked.
Day1: Confused about all this election stuff. I don't really see any other candidates but Radfield and Mig, and Radfield seems a bit more scummy than Mig but I doubt it matters. JimboSilvers might be another candidate but I don't think it matters still, especially when he's inventor and town, he could be pretty dangerous in office. It was frustrating being confirmed scum because I wasn't smart enough to figure out the rule9 thing myself so I had it from chaoser. Probably wouldn't have mentioned the rule9 thing unless wherebugsgo had poked me so that was pretty cool of him even though they all ended up drawing wrong conclusions. Totally arbitrarily claimed to Arctocod because he asked me, went for VT because that's what I am, and Dreamflower because I thought that was a cool role that somebody else would have taken and it wasn't as scum as Bomber. Apparently that saved me or something so that was cool, but forever I would be branded as untrustworthy which pretty much ended the game for me right here.
Night1: Meapak_Ziphh decided that we're hitting kitaman27, I don't really want to argue about this so I'll just go along with that. I think it was Mig who told me I wasn't playing like my past games which was because I was so confused, would have done the same as town I'm sure, but I thought that maybe I should try doing what I did past game.
Day2: Try to go for the player with the most reputation on the tlmafia forums like I didn't my last two games (DoctorHelvetica in LotR which made him ragequit and Incognito in XLV which made him ... I have no idea), that player is Foolishness. Arctocod wrote a case on Meapak_Ziphh that I kinda blocked, that was just a boon, but in the end Radfield and Mig had already decided the lynch and Meapak_Ziphh didn't really defend himself that well I think. Still going to vote for JimboSilvers because he's actually the best lynch from my point of view, as I laid out in the thread.
Night2: supersoft wants to hit sandroba or syllogism but I don't really think either of those targets are too good. supersoft claimed hider so he's going to die tomorrow I think, so I guess we can shoot syllogism, maybe he's some sort of power role, sandroba isn't so I don't want to hit him, also he's scummy. I wanted to hit wherebugsgo because I thought that maybe he was Dreamflower or at least a power role but then I was like "hopefully he'll miss and kill somebody and then himself" so we went for syllogism.
Day3: I'm getting quite sick and tired of this game since apparently everybody knows I'm scum. I guess I'll continue with somewhat dubitable cases, I guess it's townie like for a guy in my position. Also I'll try to talk more in PMs because I got that advice from coach. Worst case situation for townies right now would be that either Radfield or Mig are scum so I guess I'll try to talk to people in PMs about this. Talked to GreYMisT, hiro protagonist and Erandorr about this with no success.
Night 3: All alone now, sandroba and wherebugsgo are trying to make me admit to being scum and coach says that maybe I'll have to coordinate with other scum teams but I think this would be playing against my winning condition and against rules so I really don't want to do that. It's kinda tempting though but then I remember that sandroba is claiming tudor in these PMs and that's kinda weird since I'm house tudor. Hopefully he's not scum but acting very scummy and then maybe they'll hit him with Dreamflower tonight. I'm gonna hit Erandorr in my hopes that he's the last bodyguard and I can't really waste hits on a possible Dreamflower or on America since they could maybe misfire and then that would be good for me.

Post game thoughts: I was pretty lucky in this game. If I could have done anything differently I would have replaced out after Day1. At this point I'd never get into a town PM circle and there was nothing going on in the thread itself. After playing my first PM game, I don't feel like PM games are for me.

Unrelated to this game in particular, I think the rules are very bad and distracts from the game and are not fully thought through and are not at all sufficiently specified.

Thanks to hosts for hosting and thanks to everybody for playing.

Also, what's breadcrumbing, why is it illegal, and where does it say that it is illegal?

prplhz

Denmark8045 Posts

October 23 2011 11:35 GMT

#1520

oh yea tudor qt is here

prplhz

Denmark8045 Posts

October 23 2011 19:22 GMT

#1531

uh yea you claimed york to me sandro but you claimed that wbg was tudor ... i got that mixed up when i talked to mig too and now i got it mixed up again .. dunno why my brain insists on doing that

prplhz

Denmark8045 Posts

October 23 2011 21:06 GMT

#1534

On October 24 2011 05:24 Qatol wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 24 2011 04:54 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Also, I don't like IRC impersonation. It's easy enough to say to check someone's ip, but for example, Jimbo was impersonating me on IRC, and I had only been on there once. For the majority of people, there would be no indication that it wasn't me, unless they had my ip memorized from the last time I hopped on IRC. As well, I had no idea it was happening until it came out in the thread, because I wasn't on IRC very much, so I didn't see it.

The ip argument doesn't hold very well, as people can change how their ip appears, and impersonate someone that way. I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to IRC, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be that hard to look up a proxy from an area near where someone lives, and then connect through that and claim you're on a laptop, and at a café or public WIFI or something.

So, you get into a situation where you have to come up with passwords or something just to make sure the person you're talking to on IRC is who you really think it is. I don't like this, because it detracts from the point of mafia, and becomes more about technical ability and who's cleverest when it comes to masking who you really are or verifying identity.

I'm not that mad about this game, because Jimbo actually came out in the thread, and claimed he was the one doing it. but, for example if he was mafia and I was town, I'd have been pretty pissed if he had been impersonating me on IRC and "scum-slipping" to people or something similar, because then I'd look very scummy, and it would be very hard to deny, as no one would have my ip copied as I wasn't on IRC, so I couldn't disprove it that way, and there's no way he would admit to it in thread. So basically, I would be punished for not being on IRC.

Personally, I think it goes somewhat against the spirit of the game, and I don't see the difference between that, and for example faking a TL account (You can just check their post count, analogous to ip-checking), or making several fake Skype accounts players, so if you didn't already have them on skype from a prior game, you are again punished for not having done so.

I think this is something that should be discussed for future games, and an amendment to the game OP added. Either we should decide if it's allowed or not, or if it should be host's decision. If it's allowed, it should be mentioned in the OP. If I were new, or it was my first PM game, I wouldn't like it if I got lynched because I wasn't aware of the possibility of myself or someone else being impersonated on IRC. For example, imagine a new player who claims his entire mafia team to someone in IRC because he didn't know a town player could be impersonating his team mate. I think it would make for a pretty crappy game.

Personally, I think it shouldn't be allowed, unless the host wants to specifically provide for it, and then the host should make a note that he's doing so in the game OP.

Or you could just use a server other than quakenet.....

This one-line doesn't really take up the very valid point that Mr. Wiggles has, that this game shouldn't be about who's more clever technically. Mafia is a game about behavioral analysis, no? Even the players who did it (JimboSilvers in this case) said that he actually thought it wasn't the nicest thing to do and that's why he stopped doing it. All this "allow fake identities on IRC" just adds additional overhead to the game, you either have to have a list of IPs and know how to check the IP of the guy you are chatting with, or you need to tell him to throw you a PM on teamliquid.net and then make sure he is using the right account. The first scenenario, the IP check list, is silly as some people might not know how to actually do that and people probably come here for .... a game about behavioral analysis, not a game about technical prowess. The second scenario, the PMs on teamliquid.net, just adds a lot of overhead to what was supposed to make the game easier, now you have to verify everybody on teamliquid.net which is just a bore and doesn't add anything to the game.

If you want to take this technical aspect of the game to its extreme you could even implement PMs in a non-PM game by using public key cryptography. Totally valid within the rules, no data is ever posted outside the thread. But again, this distracts people from what this is ..... a game about behavioral analysis.

I didn't like project honeypot either. I think this should be up to the hosts but I think that hosts are doing it wrong if they want to allow this. It adds absolutely nothing to the game, and it will possibly ruin it for people who don't have a skill set that no one ever told you that you needed to have to play ..... a game about behavioral analysis. I don't think anybody should ever have any sort of an edge just by being technically more clever. This is a game about behavioral analysis, no?

prplhz

Denmark8045 Posts

October 24 2011 00:03 GMT

#1563

On October 24 2011 06:34 wherebugsgo wrote:
I don't see how public key cryptography would change a thread game into a PM game. If it's public key then everyone can crack the crypt.

Either you're being overly obstructive, or you do not understand public-key cryptography.

On October 24 2011 07:06 Qatol wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 24 2011 06:06 prplhz wrote:

On October 24 2011 05:24 Qatol wrote:

Or you could just use a server other than quakenet.....

All I'm trying to point out is that there are ways around the problem you were discussing other than making a lot more work for the hosts. I think the players in this game relied too much upon IRC. Here is the problem: it is extremely hard to moderate how people act on IRC. It is also hard to figure out exactly who is breaking the rules in such a medium if they are more tech savvy than you are. Most hosts are not particularly tech savvy. Thus, hosts generally don't try to police things like IRC.

This isn't the first game with IRC infiltrations/impersonations/etc (see Mafia 2, Ace's Mafia World, and Mafia 5 for example). Generally the solution to that is for the players to be more mindful that IRC is a lot less secure than IM/gchat or PM/quicktopic. The last time I was mafia, we used IRC but we used a different gateway, a password protected channel, and everyone used names other than our TL names. The hosts have enough to worry about in the thread. This shouldn't be their problem. You used IRC at your own risk and you got burned because of it.

I totally agree, hosts should not moderate IRC or Skype or QuickTopics at all. But there are a lot of the rules that rely on people just abiding by the rules, even if they could break them. An example of this is the "Don't be a dick" rule that I'm pretty sure is in there somewhere, if you're mafia then don't make a smurf on teamliquid.net and send out PMs to everybody with the mafia list just to be a dick. Hosts have absolutely no powers to prevent this, and only very limited ability to find out who did it, yet it never happens. Because people generally will abide by the rules. Make a rule and people will follow it. Also, impersonating a host is illegal but not impersonating another player? How is it harder to keep track of who is impersonating other players than it is keeping track of who is impersonating the host? It isn't, but people still don't do it because it's against the rules.

It's cool that people have used IRC infiltration and stuff like that before, but when I hear about it, it's mostly that those people ruined the game. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's not why people sign up to play this, to put a lot of effort into playing this game to the best of their ability and then some dude hacks their IRC channel or whatever. The people in that IRC channel didn't really have fun there. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean that it's a great thing and that it's cool and all.

I don't like it but like most other people I agree that if hosts think it's alright they should just allow it. I just don't think that it's the best way to play, and I do think that hosts can easily do something about it, just make a rule and people will follow it. No overhead at all in this for you, and a more fun game.

@wherebugsgo

Like HarbingerOfDoom said, if you don't fully understand public-key cryptography there's a wikipedia page that explains it all. It would allow for private communication over a public channel such as a thread

prplhz

Denmark8045 Posts

October 24 2011 10:25 GMT

#1572

I think that Cyber_Cheese has a very valid point that we also discussed in House Tudor before Meapak_Ziphh and deconduo went for Rock Star and Bulletproof, respectively. If you start fighting town then you will be at a disadvantage towards other scum teams who fight each other. We had a good shot at something like Extractor+Assassin, but we thought other scum teams would take that and then our defensive roles would give us a huge advantage.

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