On September 19 2011 05:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote: To clarify all I'm saying is we should never artificially split bandwagons. If someone is obviously scum and everyone is content with that there is no reason to split the bandwagon. That helps mafia. Usually singular bandwagons form naturally because a player is obviously anti-town and that's a good thing. Tunneling can be a good thing. I would never advocate singling exactly one player out for the entirety of voting/discussion every day and I never did. Huge misunderstanding. Of course there should be multiple lynch candidates. All I'm saying LITERALLY ALL IM SAYING is that when the entire town jumps onto one target this isn't necessarily a bad thing. And a pure exact 50/50 bandwagon is a good thing for mafia because they can split votes and ALWAYS ensure the innocent player is the one who gets lynched.
Also I never said we should wait for 100% scum. I would rather lynch SK if there are literally no convincing scum reads. However like I said (never used the term 100%) I would definitely vote for someone I thought was mafia over someone I though was SK but on Day 1, as it is, there is no one I have a strong read for (and I have a lot o freading to catch up on and my mind will probably change). Also I think there is still a pretty strong chance WBG is mafia because his earlier behavior was considerably scummy and from the environment we have he would have known he could get away with posting like that. Lots of scum have done worse. I have absolutely no reason to believe WBG can't be scum. Please stop misrepresenting me and twisting my thoughts and words
If this is not clear now, I'll try to make it a little more clear when I have computer access.
I still think Dr. Helvetica is scum.
He says he has no scum reads and if he found a better scum read than me he'd be willing to vote him. He insinuates this throughout the post as if the assumption is that I'm an SK.
He later contradicts himself by keeping his vote on me despite saying other people look like scum to him (Erandor, supersoft). He considers me scum despite the majority of his posts about me acting as if I'm third party. So if I'm not scum and Erandor/super were more scummy then why did Dr. H keep his vote on me?
Lastly, he claims that he never advocated exclusively singling out one person. Yet, that's almost exactly what he did with me. It's clear all of the other players he mentioned were never serious lynch targets to him because he spent no time actually making his own thoughts about them. For the most part, he was regurgitating other players' existing thoughts (e.g. chaos13's thoughts about super) and he never backed up any of those various accusations.
For the most part, Dr. H chose the easy lynch yesterday. He probably stayed away from the Erandor bandwagon despite saying he found him scummy in order to gain some towncred (IMO)
On September 19 2011 12:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Erandor and supersoft had marginally good cases against them but played less scummily than you. You're either SK or scum and I never implied you couldn't be scum so honestly i don't even see you rpoint
And while it's true that you never outwardly denied the possibility of scum, the way you (and most everyone else, as a matter of fact) posted it seemed as if the assumption was that I was SK.
Going on that it didn't matter what you said. The manner in which you said things about me implied you had assumed I was a serial killer.
By your own logic, it would then make no sense to vote me day 1 when both super and Erandor appeared scummy to you.
On September 19 2011 13:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote: antagonistic/rude trying to get under peoples skin almost purely defensive play focusing only on people who criticized or voted for you everyone discounting the possibility you're scum begging for ring day 1 and spamming spam
im done go read my posts ive said enough about you im not gonna keep repeating myself
1. Nope, asking questions =/= being antagonizing. Never once did you cite this as a reason for voting me anyway.
2. Purely defensive play eh? Is that why I voted TranceStorm? Is that why I thought the prplhz wagon was bad?
Plus, aren't you the one who made a huge post about people "misconstruing" your intentions and posts? How can you accuse me of being "overly defensive" in that case?
And again, you never cited this as a reason for voting me (until now)
3. So if everyone discounted the possibility of me being scum...that makes me scum? Lol. How on Earth do you think this is a good reason for voting someone?
4. Begging for the ring.
Oh we got to it! This is actually the only reason you voted for me. Funny it appears last in this list of yours, no?
You know what's funny though? Asking for the ring was pretty much the sole reason you voted for Greymist too! Talk about a coincidence...your only focus the entire day was who asked for the ring, whether or not it seemed like a joke.
On September 19 2011 13:25 sandroba wrote: Yo WBG man, talk to me. Are you really 3rd party, and was that claim for real? Why are you putting so much effort into scum hunting if your only goal is to find the ring? I don't really understand your play so far. You know what's funny, except for the part where you claim 3rd party you are actually one of my strongest town reads atm.
Also I believe Cyrandor claimed some interesting tidbits about prplhz and no one seemed to give a shit. Chaoser wtf man? Why didn't you look more into cyrandor's claim if prplhz was your main suspicion day1? Do you really think 2 mafia would tie themselves to each other day1 this easy?
ON and GGQ need to post more. These guys have the annoying habbit of lurking as both alignments so I never feel safe lynching them when they go into hardcore lurker mode. Could you please commit a bit more time this game so I can burn you alive if you are scum?
Palmar, you too man. Just because you roll scum 20x doesn't mean you are going to fool me by statistics again =P
I think you understand my play better than you think you do.
I want to know though, what do you think of Dr. Helvetica, Jackal, and Drazerk?
On September 18 2011 09:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote: No, I'm voting for WBG because I have no strong scum read and his play is the most anti-town. If I had to guess his role it's a neutral serial killer and I'd rather day 1 lynch an SK than what will probably be a town. I also never said WBG isn't scum. It's day 1.
So far our scum cases boil down to "your plan was stupid" "you didn't post enough" and "idk you voted for me and you didn't explain it well."
If I get a strong scum read then I'll move my vote. My read on WBG is either scum or SK. Either way, he's a detriment to town and I'm pretty sure he is not a pro-town role. I feel more comfortable voting for a player that I'm about 75% sure is a non-town player than a player I'm 15% sure might be scum.
My vote for greymist was really just a placeholder to get him talking. That's pretty standard stuff.
That's it. I'm not concerned with defending myself, I'm doing what I feel is right. WBG has been posting a little bit more constructively and at the very least, if he is a bad townie, he's learning that you can't shit post and troll without getting heat. There are still 24 hours left but so far all of the "scum" cases I've seen have been incredibly weak and I don't know why people seem to think it's impossible WBG is scum in the first place. Because he's too reckless? I've seen worse.
On September 19 2011 05:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I think it's quite probable Errandor is scum and misunderstands my reasons for voting for WBG and is trying to parrot/hide behind my bandwagon. However, if I have to switch my vote I personally get a worse feeling from Supersoft and chaos13 did a pretty good job of pointing out that very strange inconsistency.
On September 19 2011 07:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm keeping my vote on WBG out of principle because I am sure he is either SK or Mafia. The fact that no one is even exploring the possibility that he is scum says volumes to me. If he were, in fact mafia, it's a fitting enough to say "nah hes obv just 3rd party he can't be scum if yoou vote for him youre scum becasue hes not scum" but we don't know what alignment anyone is only mafia know that :-)
I can't quite reconcile these statements with the fact you left your vote on WBG. Care to clarify? Did you just became more certain about WBG being scum/mafia somewhere along the way? Why? What do you think about the possibility of WBG being a third party who isn't a serial killer?
Thank god someone else noticed this.
The whole point of me calling out Dr. H was to expose this contradiction. He said he had no scum reads, then said Erandor is probably scum and didn't vote him despite saying he would vote someone other than me once he actually had scum reads.
Somewhere in there he magically goes from me bein third party to being scum solely because no one else thinks I am scum.
On September 18 2011 09:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote: No, I'm voting for WBG because I have no strong scum read and his play is the most anti-town. If I had to guess his role it's a neutral serial killer and I'd rather day 1 lynch an SK than what will probably be a town. I also never said WBG isn't scum. It's day 1.
So far our scum cases boil down to "your plan was stupid" "you didn't post enough" and "idk you voted for me and you didn't explain it well."
If I get a strong scum read then I'll move my vote. My read on WBG is either scum or SK. Either way, he's a detriment to town and I'm pretty sure he is not a pro-town role. I feel more comfortable voting for a player that I'm about 75% sure is a non-town player than a player I'm 15% sure might be scum.
My vote for greymist was really just a placeholder to get him talking. That's pretty standard stuff.
That's it. I'm not concerned with defending myself, I'm doing what I feel is right. WBG has been posting a little bit more constructively and at the very least, if he is a bad townie, he's learning that you can't shit post and troll without getting heat. There are still 24 hours left but so far all of the "scum" cases I've seen have been incredibly weak and I don't know why people seem to think it's impossible WBG is scum in the first place. Because he's too reckless? I've seen worse.
On September 19 2011 05:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I think it's quite probable Errandor is scum and misunderstands my reasons for voting for WBG and is trying to parrot/hide behind my bandwagon. However, if I have to switch my vote I personally get a worse feeling from Supersoft and chaos13 did a pretty good job of pointing out that very strange inconsistency.
On September 19 2011 07:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm keeping my vote on WBG out of principle because I am sure he is either SK or Mafia. The fact that no one is even exploring the possibility that he is scum says volumes to me. If he were, in fact mafia, it's a fitting enough to say "nah hes obv just 3rd party he can't be scum if yoou vote for him youre scum becasue hes not scum" but we don't know what alignment anyone is only mafia know that :-)
I can't quite reconcile these statements with the fact you left your vote on WBG. Care to clarify? Did you just became more certain about WBG being scum/mafia somewhere along the way? Why? What do you think about the possibility of WBG being a third party who isn't a serial killer?
Looking over Radfields case, it wasn't as strong as had really thought at first glance. That was a pretty bad kneejerk reaction. I think WBG is mafia or SK. WBG is playing pretty arrogantly. He thinks I can't possibly have another reason for voting for him other than he "asked for the ring" (i provided several others, whatever) and I think he's SK or Mafia. It's very possible he is non-sk third party or even town. Unfortunately I don't have DT powers, I can't check.
What reason do I have as mafia to tunnel a useless and obnoxious player like WBG when I can take the easy bandwagon on Errandor or Prplhz (who was accusing me anyway) ? Yeah, I know it's WIFOM but if I'm really about to get bandwagoned for making the "wrong vote" then I don't know what to say other than TL Towns really are getting worse.
Firstly your argument makes the assumption that I'm third party or mafia solely on the fact that I asked for the ring.
I even pointed out how you voted Greymist for precisely the same reason even though it was completely obvious Greymist's request was just a joke.
Your entire argument against me is that I could be mafia or SK. You don't even for a second consider that I could be town, and your arguments yesterday were certainly self contradictory. Syllogism has also pointed that out.
Then you appeal to emotion and say I'm arrogant. Dude, look at your own play. You've contradicted yourself and you had a terrible reason for voting me. Multiple people reasoned well yesterday and straight up said I was a bad lynch but you didn't heed them. Who's more arrogant between us when it's apparent you haven't been listening to anyone else?
And before I get another backlash from you, this is not a personal attack. This is a GAME. if you can't understand that what I do here is simply within the confines of a forum game, I don't know what to say to you.
I responded to your tunnelling of me (speaks volumes to the other contradiction you made, that you wouldn't solely focus on one target) by grasping onto your own logical contradictions. You can'f blame me of that regardless of my alignment. My aim is to catch scum and if you're making logical inconsistencies in your play I'm going to defend myself against what I perceive to be an illogical attack.
And, of course, I'm going to point out those inconsistencies in the thread to establish my opinion that I think you are scum. If that's arrogance and you guys don't want me to play, I'll replace out.
On September 20 2011 02:50 syllogism wrote: Cyber_Cheese who do you think is scummy? Your activity has been very low and your only post that could be characterized as a contribution is a list post in which you don't really find anyone scummy, except sort of the person you are voting based on rather flimsy reasoning.
I'd rather save all the convincing arguments until daytime where they will be useful, and I can throw my initial vote in alongside them.
On September 20 2011 02:50 syllogism wrote: Cyber_Cheese who do you think is scummy? Your activity has been very low and your only post that could be characterized as a contribution is a list post in which you don't really find anyone scummy, except sort of the person you are voting based on rather flimsy reasoning.
I'd rather save all the convincing arguments until daytime where they will be useful, and I can throw my initial vote in alongside them.
Was this post serious?
Surprised no one caught it.
No, it was an excuse to put it off because I don't actually have them written up. Since you want my thoughts, I'm going to give basic versions for now. My current plan is to write something up on TranceStorm come day 2, and possibly other people involved in swinging the vote to someone none of us would have considered at the time I last posted on day 1. I believe one of you/prphlz/DrH is scum, but I'm not sure which, and I'm leaning towards checking you first because you changed your vote the most, possibly looking for bandwagons, but the list of people that swung the vote seems more relevant to me.
IMO You get on the right track toward the end but it's bad to assume things.
Think about the justifications for your assumptions and see if they're valid. What reason is there for assuming only one of us 3 could be scum? Could we all be scum? Could there be two of us as scum? Could we all NOT be scum?
If you make an incorrect assumption and base the rest of your argument around it your argument will look okay, but it'll be really wrong. Mafia, in addition, will jump all over it and make you a target.
Unless, ofc, you're scum, in which case I'm want to believe that you actually have no valid opinions.
On September 20 2011 02:50 syllogism wrote: Cyber_Cheese who do you think is scummy? Your activity has been very low and your only post that could be characterized as a contribution is a list post in which you don't really find anyone scummy, except sort of the person you are voting based on rather flimsy reasoning.
I'd rather save all the convincing arguments until daytime where they will be useful, and I can throw my initial vote in alongside them.
Was this post serious?
Surprised no one caught it.
No, it was an excuse to put it off because I don't actually have them written up. Since you want my thoughts, I'm going to give basic versions for now. My current plan is to write something up on TranceStorm come day 2, and possibly other people involved in swinging the vote to someone none of us would have considered at the time I last posted on day 1. I believe one of you/prphlz/DrH is scum, but I'm not sure which, and I'm leaning towards checking you first because you changed your vote the most, possibly looking for bandwagons, but the list of people that swung the vote seems more relevant to me.
IMO You get on the right track toward the end but it's bad to assume things.
Think about the justifications for your assumptions and see if they're valid. What reason is there for assuming only one of us 3 could be scum? Could we all be scum? Could there be two of us as scum? Could we all NOT be scum?
If you make an incorrect assumption and base the rest of your argument around it your argument will look okay, but it'll be really wrong. Mafia, in addition, will jump all over it and make you a target.
Unless, ofc, you're scum, in which case I'm want to believe that you actually have no valid opinions.
That was a summary of my current beliefs, it's not to say I'm not open to suggestion, and the relation to you three and the swung vote is something I plan on looking into further. Rest assured that you aren't really my primary focus at the moment WBG. I'm willing to chalk the multiple votes up to your huge amount of activity and the voting insecurities that come with Day 1, and you've been much more active than many of the people who swung the vote, added to the fact that you didn't end with a vote on Errandor. As an aside, it comes across that you feel the need to discredit everybody. I maybe looking at it the wrong way and be wrong about that, but either way, I'd like to remind you. One does not simply discredit into Mordor. + Show Spoiler +
OH YEAH 37 COOL POINTS!
Au contraire I believe I have pointed out that there are people in this town who have been posting fairly logically.
Examples that come to mind are Radfield (though his read was wrong) sandroba, to some extent Syllogism, and jcarl.
People who aren't making sense but probably town: Pyo, TranceStorm
People who I think are scum: Dr. H, Jackal, Drazerk. Possibly a couple others as well but I will not reveal those names yet.
The vast majority of the other players fall into some sort of null/fenceish category
On September 20 2011 02:50 syllogism wrote: Cyber_Cheese who do you think is scummy? Your activity has been very low and your only post that could be characterized as a contribution is a list post in which you don't really find anyone scummy, except sort of the person you are voting based on rather flimsy reasoning.
I'd rather save all the convincing arguments until daytime where they will be useful, and I can throw my initial vote in alongside them.
Was this post serious?
Surprised no one caught it.
No, it was an excuse to put it off because I don't actually have them written up. Since you want my thoughts, I'm going to give basic versions for now. My current plan is to write something up on TranceStorm come day 2, and possibly other people involved in swinging the vote to someone none of us would have considered at the time I last posted on day 1. I believe one of you/prphlz/DrH is scum, but I'm not sure which, and I'm leaning towards checking you first because you changed your vote the most, possibly looking for bandwagons, but the list of people that swung the vote seems more relevant to me.
IMO You get on the right track toward the end but it's bad to assume things.
Think about the justifications for your assumptions and see if they're valid. What reason is there for assuming only one of us 3 could be scum? Could we all be scum? Could there be two of us as scum? Could we all NOT be scum?
If you make an incorrect assumption and base the rest of your argument around it your argument will look okay, but it'll be really wrong. Mafia, in addition, will jump all over it and make you a target.
Unless, ofc, you're scum, in which case I'm want to believe that you actually have no valid opinions.
That was a summary of my current beliefs, it's not to say I'm not open to suggestion, and the relation to you three and the swung vote is something I plan on looking into further. Rest assured that you aren't really my primary focus at the moment WBG. I'm willing to chalk the multiple votes up to your huge amount of activity and the voting insecurities that come with Day 1, and you've been much more active than many of the people who swung the vote, added to the fact that you didn't end with a vote on Errandor. As an aside, it comes across that you feel the need to discredit everybody. I maybe looking at it the wrong way and be wrong about that, but either way, I'd like to remind you. One does not simply discredit into Mordor. + Show Spoiler +
OH YEAH 37 COOL POINTS!
Au contraire I believe I have pointed out that there are people in this town who have been posting fairly logically.
Examples that come to mind are Radfield (though his read was wrong) sandroba, to some extent Syllogism, and jcarl.
People who aren't making sense but probably town: Pyo, TranceStorm
People who I think are scum: Dr. H, Jackal, Drazerk. Possibly a couple others as well but I will not reveal those names yet.
The vast majority of the other players fall into some sort of null/fenceish category
Yeah I just really wanted to be the first to use the Mordor line more than anything, it's not actually that accurate. It was a recent impression that I realised was wrong from your filter. hence all the looking at it wrong way buisness.
On September 20 2011 05:26 Cyber_Cheese wrote: EBWOP: that was supposed to be discredit everybody who speaks of you in a negative light
There's a specific reason for this.
It's actually not terribly hard to figure out, either.
Survival instinct, and I'd love to continue talking about it but it seems like it would sidetrack the scum hunt. What makes you think TraceStorm might be town?
Trancestorm is town IMO because of the way he posts. He responds to a lot of things and it appears he puts in more genuine effort than most other players in this game.
In addition his plan wrt to the ring was bad but it actually promoted discussion. After I pushed him a little and he posted more I saw less and less to suggest that he's scum.
Is he for sure town? Certainly we don't know anything yet, but there are better focuses today.
Also, bolded is wrong.
Any town players reading this should ask why I would ask for the ring. If you can understand my behavior from my POV then you will see why I was concerned with the easy lynch wagon on me (and the players I found to be scummiest who had left their votes there)
On September 20 2011 07:34 Radfield wrote: JEEJEE I see what you're doing, BUT YOU HAVE TO POST MORE TO NOT GET MODKILLED. You need to post 2 or 3 times this cycle.
If that's arrogance and you guys don't want me to play, I'll replace out.
You're playing fine, don't sub out, just settle down a bit. Reading your posts it feels like you're jumping up and down in your seat while typing.
To be completely honest with you I'm actually fairly bored.
Activity level was great during a time I couldn't be at the computer (last four hours of day or so?) but when discussion is slow, like now, I get bothered.
On September 19 2011 18:32 Jackal58 wrote: Alright, it's night time now. Give Bugs the ring and get him out of here.
You seem so convinced that giving WBG the ring will get them out of the game. I don't know why you're so convinced..
However, the fact that Jackal keeps repeating this after being called out on it several times surprises me. It doesn't logically make sense as scum play. I would expect scum to drop it after a while. However, he seems really locked into his point of view on this, which I would expect more from a town player.
Now, I definitely want people to keep the list of votes on erandorr in the back of their minds:
Palmar Radfield Syllogism prplhz kitaman27 OriginalName Vain TranceStorm xtffc
Think about how quickly the bandwagon formed and filled up. I knew it felt wrong, and I'll be the first to admit that I didn't feel confident enough in myself to argue against Radfield to try and stop it. Before Radfield's post, prpl was leading the lynch vote. This has only made me more suspicious of prpl, and it makes me really want to take a deep look into Radfield.
Looking down the list, I see Palmar at the very top. His posts consist of:
hey guys, I'm in a good mood so I'm not gonna ruin it by reading the thread. See you tomorrow
Radfield is a cool guy and Errandor has done nothing that looks like town posting.
WBG is almost definitely not scum, just put yourselves in his shoes, why the shit would he post the things he's done if he was scum, he's basically piling on attention and scummyness by wanting to look for his precious, outright demanding it.
I'll be voting for Errandor.
filter Still in good mood, cba telling you why you're having a case of the bads.
I don't like the case on prplhz either.
DrH is giving me really bad vibes.
These all wreak of uselessness. It also connects Palmar and Radfield. The little, scummy bandwagon that started on Erandorr starts with them.
We also see prplhz jumping onto the Erandorr votes quickly.
When I saw kitaman's name on the list, it made me realize just how little he had done this game. If you filter his posts, you won't find much of anything. It's mostly a lot of posts asking others their opinions, and not giving his own. In the couple posts that he did have opinions in, they were weak and not definitive. I'm definitely watching kita. You better start actually contributing.
On September 19 2011 08:42 Ciryandor wrote: Errandor you derp. I may die tonight...
You cannot expect to say something like this and get away with it. You got some 'splainin to do.
Erandorr was a fine lynch. Everyone seems to be coming out of the woodworks right now softballing suspicion on me, but it's awful easy to shout that after the lynch. You didn't feel confident enough to argue against it because you thought there was a decent chance he would flip scum, same as me. As far as Day 1 votes go, he was the best I had to offer, and better in my opinion than prp and much better than WBG.
You're attempted linking of me to a non-contributing player is noted. Particularly after he blatantly buddy-buddied me. If I flip town tonight is that supposed to give Palmar townie cred?
However you do have some good points. The bandwagon on Erandorr grew incredibly quick, and if prp does flip red, that gives us a ton of info. Frankly I screwed up yesterday. Not about lynching Erandorr, but about the timing. I thought Day was ending several hours later than it did, and forgot that it had been pushed up by 2-3 hours. 8 votes in 2 hours is exceptionally swift. This is the cause of 1 of 2 things: A good Day 1 case when there are no others(possible), or, a swing from a scum lynch to a town lynch(also possible).
Frankly the whole Erandorr voting list is filled with players who look bad:
Palmar has done nothing, Syllo On and stffc look scummy. Vain and Kita I don't know right now, but will look into if I'm still alive in 40 minutes.
I have much more to say but have to run. My post isn't supposed to end here, but I have to go. Will be back in a couple hours
_____________ WBG looks town, Navillus looks townish too Cyber looks awful, but town awful, not scum awful, which is exactly how he looked in Hesmyrrs game.
Palmar needs to step it up or die. Same for Syllo.
Sandro, Doc H and Chaoser need to keep actively contributing as the game goes on, or else they need to die.
I agree with almost all of this.
One thing I will point out though, is to the people who are trying to establish links between players. The following is entirely my opinion, take it or leave it. I think it's useful to think about, though.
First of all, I think that any "link" you make now is going to flaw your judgment of the players you're trying to link together. For example; some people think Radfield and Palmar are linked because they both voted Erandorr and Erandorr ended up flipping town.
Well, we have some correct facts there, but the assumption is just bad. This assumption of "Palmar+Radfield started Erandorr bandwagon, Erandorr flipped town = Radfield Palmar connected" is bad because it means that if one of Palmar/Radfield gets lynched or vigged or shot or whatever and flips, we'll have this predisposed notion about the other that will be hard to get rid of.
We need to analyze players right now based solely on their actions. Once people start flipping we can consider connections but I strongly doubt it's a good idea to hypothesize possible scum buddies right now.
And by "their actions" I mean their behavioral actions alone, disregarding their potential links to other players. I don't actually mean what they literally do, but rather how they do it.
EPT
