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On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:50 wherebugsgo wrote: xtfftc has made some "contributions", but his reactions have been really strange. Supersoft made a list once of people who haven't voted, and xtfftc jumped to the conclusion that it was a suspicion list.
...
Apologizes meekly to supersoft later, why? I did not say that the list of people Supersoft made was a list of people who were suspicious - I merely pointed out that he was wrong. I voted for Palmer, Supersoft quoted my post and voted for me immediately after - and then he put me on the list. It was sloppy, no matter how you look at it. Then I saw I missed doing it on the voting thread, so I apologised for my mistake. Why - because I was wrong and even made a sneer remark on it.
Okay. Fair enough.
On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +Then there's this gem: On August 21 2011 03:49 xtfftc wrote:On August 21 2011 03:37 wherebugsgo wrote:On August 21 2011 03:24 xtfftc wrote: By the way, I have to apologise to supersoft - I just noticed that I didn't post in the voting thread, which was probably the reason he put me on his list (although it's still kind of sloppy).
So I'm going to vote after Sevryn defends himself. Palmar, DropBear and BrownBear are a story that has to develop further. wtf? why are you afraid of voting now? Is it because others have labeled you as scum already? I expected supersoft to be superhappy about this but noone else. Sevryn is basically dead, one way or another. No mafia will be dumb enough to protect him anymore and the townies are aware that going after anyone else now would look suspicious. But in case Sevryn gets modkilled, we need to use the opportunity for two town kills. wat wat indeed? What is it that you are claiming? Is this all about semantics or is there anything more to it?
#1: Why would it have been suspicious to go after anyone else? If you had evidence, you could've made the case for someone else! In fact, multiple people did (and weren't suspected of being scum) in the ultimate hours before Sevryn's lynch.
It seems like you've been afraid or hesitant for quite a bit.
On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:50 wherebugsgo wrote: I will answer to QuickSilver in a separate post because this one is long enough anyway. but never actually made such a post, semi-copping out with this trash: Show nested quote +If I don't answer QuickSilver, people will claim that I have nothing to say in my defense. If I don't analyse Sevyrn, I will be accused of not contributing. I never got to responding to it, mostly because I felt there was not much to talk about. Most of his accusations were based on me arguing the point that lynching lurkers as top priority is not a great strategy for town. The rest was an analysis on my vote for Palmer, which was taken out of context. Still, there you go: Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 16:52 QuickSilver7 wrote:Our scum dying today is xtfftc, he does the same thing that Trotske does. On August 20 2011 05:09 xtfftc wrote: ##Vote: Palmar
He obviously had something in mind and there's no way he wasn't aware of how his accusations would be perceived by the rest of us.
However, his strategy hasn't benefited town by now. He has until the deadline to convince me to vote DropBear or BrownBear. If nothing meaningful comes out of the discussion initiated by him, I'd rather have one less player who throws arbitrary accusations around.
I'd also like to point out that it shouldn't be that difficult to convince me to switch to DropBear, considering DropBear's behaviour. So lemme get this straight, he votes Palmar to try and get Palmar to convince him that DB or BB are scum? He doesn’t even think Palmar is scum but he’s fine killing him if it means “one less player who throws arbitrary accusations around” Townies throw accusations around not mafia, mafia want to lurk where they won’t be seen. People vote for more than one reason. Not every vote means "this person is mafia". Sometimes you vote to pressure, sometime you vote to encourage.
Sure, but those reasons are generally bad. Look what happened to Sevryn when he voted to "pressurevote."
Vote to kill mafia. That's our job. Our job is not to extract information. Our job is to kill mafia. If you're not voting to kill mafia, then you're fucking up.
On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +He also picks DB and BB as people who he’d switch to if Palmar magically convinces him that one of them is scum. However he doesn’t give any reasons why he’d vote for these people other than a very vague reference to DB’s “behavior.” Mentioning DB wasn't a vague reference, I had already commented on it in a previous post. Mentioning BB was to encourage Palmar to keep on with his lead because I thought he was onto something.
Why? You never mentioned WHY you thought he was onto something. In this sense, I agreed with Quicksilver.
Also, it makes very little sense how voting Palmar would encourage him to keep on with his "lead" on DB or BB. It just seems likely to cause chaos, as when you randomly vote for someone, it forces that person to defend themselves.
Voting to encourage someone is by far one of the strangest things you've said so far.
On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +Here is another: On August 19 2011 08:46 xtfftc wrote:On August 19 2011 08:38 Curu wrote: We already had a mess of a first day in Personality with everyone trying to roleplay.
What point are you trying to get at xtfftc? I don't have anything to add really - as long as we're all active, all is good. I'd just bear in mind that people don't want to die, even in a game. Woa red flags going up all over the place, for context xtfftc was posting some troll crap at the beginning about democracy and random stuff which Curu called him out on. Firstly he says he has nothing to add, bad bad bad, as a townie you can always add to the discussion. Show nested quote +For context, this post comes in the middle of a discussion about lynching lurkers and different lynch organization techniques. A townie should have lots to say on this subject, after the lynch is how we’re killing scum. Yet xtfftc doesn’t address any of this and skates by with a very neutral “as long as we're all active, all is good.” Then he drops the bomb “I'd just bear in mind that people don't want to die, even in a game” a townie would be happy to die, every townie that dies at night is a blue that didn’t get sniped (or a medic failure lolol ). Townies should have no fear of death and be contributing as much as possible, any reticence towards posting indicates something to hide and that indicates scum. This was a discussion about policies which should have been over a long time ago. I said what I had to say - that some town players will lurk and lynching players for lurking is a bad idea. At the time of my post there were people calling out for lynching all lurkers as a top priority... I don't agree with this and never will.
Bad town players will lurk. While you're right in that lurking says little about alignment, it is certainly true that you in particular have had a reluctance toward posting. You haven't contributed very much to the town cause, and that raises red flags.
On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +Anyway next post: On August 19 2011 08:06 chaos13 wrote:On August 19 2011 08:03 xtfftc wrote: Surely the Mafia is aware that open discussion is the ordinary citizens' strongest weapon and are thus likely to target those who are unafraid to speak their minds? A dictator always targets the means of communication: the media, the internet, etc. Yes. Does that mean we should all lurk? No. If everybody discusses in a productive way, mafia will have trouble blending in and providing the same level of constructive input, and suddenly those extremely pro-town players don't become such high profile targets, because everyone is joining in to an equal degree. I agree, of course. If the whole population takes part in the democracy process, the people become too powerful to be messed with. But it often takes just one ordinary citizen to show signs of cowardice - and suddenly we see a snowball effect affecting the whole town. Show nested quote +But in the below post he contradicts himself by saying that if 1 person doesn't post, we all lose. Show nested quote +Snowball effect = one person deciding to do something and the others following. One person is not a problem unless the others follow suit. I apologise if the way I expressed myself was a bit hard to understand but by twisting my words all you do is make me suspicious. I never said that "if 1 person doesn't post, we all lose" - I said that "One person is not a problem unless the others follow suit."
Okay.
On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +The nested quotes here show the little exchange about democracy I was talking about earlier. Now I would have let that whole thing go as early game trolling and not taken anything he said seriously, but rather then say “oh hey nbd I was just trolling”, xtfftc chooses to defend his comments which means he meant them, if he mean them than GeyMist’s argument for xtfftc’s posts being scummy is suddenly relevant. Beyond the democracy exchange this post also rehashes stuff others have been saying about lurkers and town KP, adding nothing new to the table. The very definition of CWC. I did mean them and I still mean them - prioritising on lurkers is bad for the game. According to QuickSilver I was wrong for saying "there is nothing more to add", yet I am also wrong for "adding nothing new to the table". I made my point about the policy, then I made it again. And then I got asked about it again. Yes, I had nothing else to add and I still don't.
Yes, but when people suggest that we could lynch lurkers, you can add to the discussion by instead suggesting SPECIFIC PEOPLE to lynch, and reasons/evidence why. The only time you EVER did that was with Palmar, and that post was terrible because you voted for Palmar to "encourage" him to follow up on his lead.
Like I said earlier, you don't vote to "encourage" someone, pressurevote them, whatever. You vote someone to kill them, because you think they're mafia.
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Oh, I forgot this:
After the #1 (my "wat" comment)
You said we needed to use the opportunity for two kills. Funny thing is, you really didn't have any suggestions for WHO to kill, just "hey guys maybe we should kill two people."
That makes me question your motives for wanting two people to die. If you wanted to lynch mafia, why wouldn't you make a suggestion of who you suspected?
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On August 23 2011 05:52 Vain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:54 wherebugsgo wrote:On August 23 2011 04:53 Vain wrote:On August 23 2011 04:22 hiro protagonist wrote:On August 23 2011 04:20 Vain wrote:On August 23 2011 03:52 supersoft wrote:funny how xtfftc, vain and rayzorflash defend each other ;-) On August 23 2011 02:58 Vain wrote:On August 23 2011 02:44 supersoft wrote: why don't we lynch RayzorFlash? He's probably gotten coached and his death would give us a lot of information to work with... Can you write out what information we get then? In my opinion that only creates more wifom On August 23 2011 03:30 xtfftc wrote: He (Vain) is saying that if we agree on one single target for a vigilante, mafia would know who to protect. @vain: you want an answer to your question? filter me. That is correct I have no idea what your trying to say Vain... He asked me if i meant what xtffc said. To me it was pretty clear but i guess not to everyone. So to be clear: Yes, if we agree on a single target and direct vigilante's to them you have a big chance mafia just protects them. but i think we wasted too much posts on that subject already. Who are the 3 scummiest people to you, then? 1: nard 2: xtfftc 3: dunno yet
Sorry for all the posting, but I just noticed this, gotta follow up:
1.) Okay, why? Why is nard suspicious to you?
2.) Why is xtfftc suspicious to you?
3.) Why is nard MORE suspicious to you than xtfftc?
4.) If you don't have a third person, what have you thought about Mig? Rayzor?
5.) Why are you lurking so hard?
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On August 23 2011 06:40 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:32 VisceraEyes wrote: hiro is acting like cocky-ass scum this game, and I think he's hiding behind his meta. He doesn't usually play like this when scum (he doesn't often play scum at all actually)...one of his only games I've played with him though he was the lurky lacky of Palmar, in the game he referenced at the BEGINNING of the game, establishing his meta. I don't like it. Hiro takes the lead of second-runner-ups-to-Palmar-on-my-scum-list. Wait a minute, you said that me using meta in my arguments was pointless and (for the most part) rampant speculation. But now you're voting for Hiro based on meta? WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS WORLD
We need to be careful.
I feel like there's enough disorganization that townies are making too many mistakes. We can't have red herrings fuck us in the ass from just having everyone be suspicious. Paranoia will make us unfocused, and that lets mafia win.
For now, I propose that we focus on 3 or fewer lynch targets. At the moment, I think xtfftc has the strongest case. After, I would say we can make pretty good cases for both Mig and nard.
Vain we can leave alone for now, we can't really build a case on him when he hasn't said anything to begin with. Once we hear some opinions from the players who currently aren't here I think we can get talking some more.
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On August 23 2011 08:37 Palmar wrote: xtfftc is not scum
Why do you say this?
Anything new on BB or is it your standard fare? I going to look over more of the posts as soon as I get home.
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LOL maybe this is why there were feelings of paranoia.
I need to reread AGAIN. Thanks Mig. If you can, please answer Jackal.
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Last question for Mig: other than chaoser, who do you find scummy? What do you think of xtfftc, hiro, nard?
Once we get this I think I'll be ready to put together another post summing my ideas together.
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Palmar thinks xtfftc is townie.
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On August 23 2011 10:28 Mig wrote:I know some people are going to cry omgus omgus vote here but I wanted to go back and look through all the posts of the people jumping on my bandwagon first. And dropbear looks extremely scummy to me. Here are the points against him 1) His play at the start of the game. Dropbear starts the game off with fluff posts concerning no lynches and his mayor thing. While palmar is attacking him and generating actual discussion that can be used to find scum, db is deflecting the discussion onto unrelated subjects. And as soon as soon as palmar calls him out on this db tries to turn it around and tries to actually take credit for getting discussion started. When really he has done 0 scum hunting and all his posts are bland ways to look like you are contributing. 2) Contradictions. Look at some of these quotes by db. Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 07:32 DropBear wrote: I WOULD LIKE TO LYNCH HIRO PROTAGONIST
- Voting sevryn just because. No reasoning given.
Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 07:49 DropBear wrote:
- I think the case against Mig is at this point non-existent
Ok so he wants to lynch hiro for not giving reasons for his sevryn vote, he also thinks there is no case against me. Then this is his post where he votes me on day2. Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:25 DropBear wrote:Ok so I'm ok with hiro now, he tried to lead the lynch off sevryn who flipped town so he gets brownies, at least temporarily. On August 23 2011 04:15 supersoft wrote: i just saw, mig already stacked 3 votes on him. Like I said earlier, I don't trust him etc. but for me it's too early to lynch him. Do show me where! If you don't trust him, why not lynch now? ##Vote Mig Gives absolutely no reasons for voting me even though he had said earlier there was no case against me huh? What changed your mind dropbear? He also states he is fine with hiro now for trying to deflect the sevryn lynch when I had done the exact same thing. 3) Activity. Don't look at the amount of posts DB has overall but look at when he is active. He was extremely active right at the start of day 1 posting where he has a bunch of fluff and tried to claim town cred for it. However what about after that? He pretty much disappears then shows up right before the end of day 1 makes 2 short posts attacking hiro and chaoser and disappears. So he introduced 2 new candidates right at the end of the day BUT didn't stick around to actually push for their lynches. He knew sevryn was going to flip green and didn't want to get any backlash from it so instead he posted a couple short cases against people not in danger of being lynched and then vanished to let the town argue amongst themselves. And what about day2? We are 24 hours in and db has one post. This is classic mafia activity. Active right at the start of the game where he is trying to buy town cred for himself but once we get deeper in and real analysis starts he is completely MIA. So seriously look at DB's posts and ask yourself what his motivations are. Has he put any effort into scum hunting? Does he care if town makes the correct decisions? No. He comes in posts a ton at the start to buy credit but afterwards he basically sits out of the sevryn lynch, doesn't push for the people he actually thinks are scummy to be lynched at all and then on day2 he votes for me because it is a chance to jump on a bandwagon to get a strong town player lynched even though he had said earlier there was no case against me. #Vote Dropbear
On August 23 2011 10:52 Mig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 10:27 wherebugsgo wrote: Last question for Mig: other than chaoser, who do you find scummy? What do you think of xtfftc, hiro, nard?
Once we get this I think I'll be ready to put together another post summing my ideas together. I think db/chaoser are both hella scummy. hiro - has contributed nothing but seems much more active than when I played with him in AA and he was scum. His posts also feel more bold to me, he was a lot more reserved and skittish before. So leaning town. nard - scummy lurker, has a couple of posts where he just writes one line about a bunch of different subjects and contributes nothing. He only has like 4 posts though and he is very new but I would lean scum towards him. xtfftc - initial posts I thought were extremely scummy. His first vote of palmar also was extremely suspect and wishy washy. He has a ton of posts where he doesn't seems to want to take a stand and several times he dodges questions people ask him. I would lynch him next if no one agreed with db/chaoser.
Thanks, Mig.
I think this sheds some light on what's been happening today. Firstly, town needs to seriously reevaluate ALL suspects. Right now we have a lot of votes on xtfftc. I feel like the case is still strong, but we need to go back and reaffirm our votes. It's also vitally important that we have a viable second choice. I'm going to look into DB's posts, and whoever else's name has popped up over the past few hours (and that's quite a few people.)
I think what has happened over the past 24-48 hours is that mafia has stood by while the town has misled itself. I think some information has been mafia-influenced. We have a large number of relatively inactive/lurking players. Since there are so many lurking players and 6 mafia, we have no idea how many mafia are hiding.
Palmar thinks xtfftc is townie. If more of you think he is town as well, please state your cases. Right now I don't really know why Palmar should be taken seriously on this matter. Personally I won't until he actually refutes the evidence against xtfftc and provides an answer to the question I posed to him a little while ago.
For a second choice, I'm willing to go with nard. We need some more information, IMO, on DB/chaoser before we can lynch them. It might be in our best interest to just let them live till tomorrow. If anyone disagrees, please come forth.
I'll be back shortly with my thoughts on some of the players I didn't mention last time, and my reevaluations of things I think I got wrong before.
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On August 23 2011 11:46 chaoser wrote:
Hypocrite!
____________________________________________________________________________
Alright, some things to think about: I've looked over the posts of some players we've somewhat forgotten. Here's one that really stood out to me:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254174&user=92078 Trotske
BEHOLD, his first post:
On August 20 2011 08:40 Trotske wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 08:09 wherebugsgo wrote: oh, forgot to add:
## vote Sevyrn
defend yourself, scum. I agree I think Sevryn is looking pretty scummy but I am curious what you guys think about Foolishness this is his one post after the game started. he agree's with dropbears mayor plan which gives one person the power to decide between tow people and chooses someone who hasn't been acting super pro town. This scream scummy to me, inactive and then comes in with a single line to vote on a not very town plan imo. so until he defends himself some more i'm goign to vote sevryn but foolishness needs to post something more or I am going to start pushing for his lynch.
Da eff? First he acknowledges that Sevryn seemed scummy, and completely glosses over it. Then, he goes for foolishness, who has made ONE post and it's an obvious troll.
Why would he begin to plan for the lynch of another player completely based on a troll post? There is no analysis here by Trotske, just a complete guess. Either he's being thick, and not understanding it's a troll, or he's mafia and trying to set up a future lynch.
Not to mention, the way he came off about Sevryn would have allowed him to slip away without responsibility because he didn't add any new analysis about Sevryn either. If he knew Sevryn was town he knew about the possibility that the vote could change, since this was very early in the day.
EXHIBIT B:
On August 21 2011 05:44 Trotske wrote:Ok guys I'd like to say I think Foolishness is scum (again) here is my original post + Show Spoiler +On August 20 2011 08:40 Trotske wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 08:09 wherebugsgo wrote: oh, forgot to add:
## vote Sevyrn
defend yourself, scum. I agree I think Sevryn is looking pretty scummy but I am curious what you guys think about Foolishness this is his one post after the game started. he agree's with dropbears mayor plan which gives one person the power to decide between tow people and chooses someone who hasn't been acting super pro town. This scream scummy to me, inactive and then comes in with a single line to vote on a not very town plan imo. so until he defends himself some more i'm goign to vote sevryn but foolishness needs to post something more or I am going to start pushing for his lynch. QuickSilver7 pointed out how this was scummy of me to say I Think foolishness is scum and then vote for sevryn but the fact is this is a majority lynch system the fact that sevryn looks scummy and has the most votes on him is enough to vote for him unless more people agreed with me but he is the only one who seemed to read my post. The next page after I made my post calling Foolishness inactive he posts quite a few times while not addressing my post at all. Most of his posts are taking a very on the fence position. accusing quite a few people of being scum but yet he's not so sure sevryn is. This feels like he is trying to distance himself from Sevryn. I think foolishness is a great target for the next lynch.
Next post by Trotske is kinda more of the same. However, now we can use information we know now to be true to perhaps help us analyze this post.
First, he defends himself in the first sentence from the sole accusation of him by Quicksilver. Quicksilver's accusation of Trotske relied on the same reasoning that I just used up there; it's strange to want to lynch someone, then plan someone else's lynch on the condition that the person you're planning to lynch doesn't come up to defend themselves. You vote in order to lynch mafia, you don't vote to bandwagon. Trotske bandwagoned Sevryn and then planned to lynch foolish afterward.
Then, the killer:
On August 21 2011 05:44 Trotske wrote: This feels like he is trying to distance himself from Sevryn.
Well, we know now that Sevryn is not scum. In light of Trotske's motives, this sentence certainly is not something a townie would say.
Not to mention, busing a fellow mafia on day 1 is just weird. Foolishness also later went on to say (before sev was lynched) that he didn't think sevryn was mafia. So, how could Foolish be trying to distance himself from Sevryn? Why would mafia bus their own on day 1? Trotske's "analysis" was wrong on several levels, primarily because, IMO, there was no analysis to begin with. Trotske was just trying to APPEAR to contribute.
Next:
On August 21 2011 08:54 Trotske wrote: Two hours left in the day I don't think you are going to get a switch from sevryn to chaoser in that time. Lets stick with the lynch we have been going for the past day we don't want a no-lynch because someone forgot to switch their vote back.
This and his remaining 2-3 posts or whatever don't contribute anything whatsoever except his feeling that it'd be better to lynch Sevryn than no one, which everyone had already said numerous times.
During this day Trotske has done absolutely nothing. Scum? I think so. What do y'all think?
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On August 23 2011 11:55 chaos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 23:15 Palmar wrote: Let's assume for a second you don't think I am scum, and in turn I'll think for a second you might be town aligned.
What would you think about lynching BrownBear. I will give my thoughts on your lynch target of choice after I've done re-reading his posts. Works for me. BrownBear, I don't think is mafia. From what I can see of his posts he is playing pro-town, making solid analysis. I'll be moving my vote from Foolishness since it isn't doing any good there today. Still deciding who to put it on, I've got a couple candidates in mind. Someone I really don't like the looks of right now is wherebugsgo Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 00:22 wherebugsgo wrote: I feel like Palmar is town, as is VE. VE I think you should reconsider your vote on palmar. Right now xtfftc and Brownbear stand out to me; I can't really put a definite finger on either but I need to do some more reading and analyzing (on a computer, not an iPhone lol)
I would suggest also that you guys all remember Trotske and Vain. Some of the names from day 1 are being forgotten because of this hardcore tunneling going on. VE I think you're tunnelling too hard on Palmar and are missing other valuable leads we have right now. I say this based off what I read by filtering your posts.
Last things I wish to add/reiterate: I feel like Foolish is town, and he's usually a valuable source of information. If we get confirmation that he was lying about last night then we need to reconsider our stance about him being town. So far, other than the hit claim, foolish has done nothing to stand out, and so I'm inclined to say that he is town.
Palmar is most likely town as well in my opinion. Yeah, he's been tunnelling BB but I think it's rather warranted. BB's vote yesterday was rather scummy, and the post he made about semiactives had the feel of a nontown agenda. He tried throwing some suspicion on "semiactives" and listed 3-4 names, of which were JeeJee, hiro, myself, and Foolish.
Well damn, he sure thinks Palmar is town. Why does he post this shortly after then? Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 01:19 wherebugsgo wrote: Upon rereading palmar's posts, I lean toward town. Palmar was never a proponent of the Sevryn lynch and he made several good (IMO) posts on how it matters not what a person thinks another's alignment is, but the WAY in which they propose their arguments. In this sense, I agree; the manner in which someone responds or posts is actually more important in order to determine their alignment than what they are literally saying.
You seemed way more convinced of his townieness earlier before you'd read his posts, but you provide other reasons for why he is town.. This just doesn't make sense to me. If wherebugsgo is scum, Palmar probably is as well. But when I filter his posts I really don't get a strong read on him either way. Can I get some external input on him please?
You don't like the looks of me because I don't think Palmar is mafia?
That's a real strong argument you've got there. Why don't you actually analyze my posts? If you actually did that then you'd find a strong read on me.
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On August 23 2011 12:27 chaos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 12:22 wherebugsgo wrote: You don't like the looks of me because I don't think Palmar is mafia?
That's a real strong argument you've got there. Why don't you actually analyze my posts? If you actually did that then you'd find a strong read on me. How the fuck...? Did you even read my post? No, I think you're *possible* (please note that, as I'm not sure on you and if you look closely you'll be able to see that I asked others for their opinion on you) mafia because you seemed very sure of him being town, and then apparently went back and re-read his posts, at which point you found more reason to believe he was town but somehow seemed less sure of your town read on him. If you were so sure he was town, why did you have to go back and re-read?
Yep, I did.
I reread Palmar's posts because VE was pushing for his lynch and I felt at the time that he was town. Also, I said I was analyzing the posts of people that we had suspicions about, and that I did:
On August 23 2011 00:58 wherebugsgo wrote: I'll add palmar to my list of analyses. Time to read his posts again
Filter me again and you can go back to find this post, and I'd also suggest that you look at the thread in context where I post these.
Also I was making sure I wasn't missing anything that VE might have caught. Palmar has posted a fair amount.
I've always been fairly certain that Palmar was town but I can't help having doubts when people keep voting on him. I'm open to ideas from other people. However, if you're asking about my OWN opinion about Palmar, it's that he is town. In my attempt to facilitate discussion I can see how it might seem that I was somewhat unsure after rereading his posts.
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Alright, last thoughts before I head to bed, I'll be back in 8-12 hours.
Right now we have a lot of votes on xtfftc but we have at least one (I think more?) person saying he believes xt is town. We need to get opinions and additional analysis on him. I made my own analysis of him earlier (filter my posts) and am willing to lynch him if we cannot find evidence that suggests he is a townie.
On Mig I am currently unsure, this whole Foolish/chaoser/Mig business is getting a little confusing. I know you, Curu, said that one of Mig/chaoser is probably mafia but I think we need to substantiate that assumption before relying on it. IMO it's still possible that they're both town. I mean, we have several possibilities here, in my opinion:
-one of foolish/chaoser is mafia and they have thrown a vote on Mig, the mafia to act like they're contributing and the town because they've been convinced -they're both mafia and Mig is town -Mig is mafia and foolish/chaoser are both town -they're all town
I have a feeling all 3 may be town, in which case you all are wasting time. The first scenario is least likely IMO but I feel that the other 3 are all currently possible. I guess it's also remotely possible that there is a busing attempt (or a fake bus) going on but I really doubt that.
I suggest you guys also consider my post on Trotske that I recently posted. Several players in the game right now look like scum. We have half the day left to make our decision. Let's lynch a mafia tonight.
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Hey guys, I just reread the thread after waking up. I read the OP to see if there's anything about safe claims:
Also, each role has custom fluff, to deter any silly ideas like name claiming, the mafia may at any point request a safe-claim from me and I will provide it, safe claims can be for any role, from Liquidian to Inquisitor
But...this raises a question for me because the wording is vague. Once GM or sandroba answers I'll provide my opinion on this whole issue.
Can the mafia player choose which role to receive a safe claim for, or does the mod just randomly choose a role to provide?
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On August 24 2011 00:41 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 00:38 Vain wrote:On August 24 2011 00:31 DropBear wrote:On August 24 2011 00:27 Mig wrote: Why would you ever do this as medic DB why? Were you trying to get the mafia to shoot you? Chaoser did it to draw shots because he was a vet.
Jesus Yeah well you know from RTM that my judgement isn't always best T_T Sorry for being a retard but we need to get back to business. RayzorFlash and xtfftc? Yeah, but why was the mindset of this? get supersoft lynched? get mig lynched? get yourself lynched? I'm just confused why you thought it was a good idea to claim, please elaborate because you could have just made a case against supersoft without being night target Number one I was suss as hell on supersoft, he kept defending Mig, Foolishness was voting Mig, I know Foolishness was a good guy, people were starting to unvote Mig, Mig was starting to push me and not many people were disputing it. I was getting pressure for my dodgy claim and I fold under pressure lol. I'm done discussing this, I fucked things up enough already. Sorry everyone. Let's get back to business people.
Can you explain what made you suspicious of me?
Right now I'm a bit confused. We don't have all that much time to come up with a proper lynch target, and from the looks of it we have doubts on almost all of them right now. It's possible, IMO, that we're being misled and mafia are just flying under the radar.
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On August 24 2011 01:09 DropBear wrote: Cos I'm an idiot. Can we drop it please. Forget it happened. Stop the derailment. Mafia will be laughin their arse off right now.
Get back to scumhunting. RayzorFlash you have disappeared. ##Vote RayzorFlash
Stop the derailment...
Derails and votes Rayzorflash...
Dude, either you're retarded or you're scum. Wtf are you doing?
Also, in case a mod didn't see my question:
Can the mafia player choose which role to receive a safe claim for, or does the mod just randomly choose a role to provide?
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Townies don't have a very good reason to lie most of the time. There's a reason there's a lynch all liars rule, right?
The thing is, I don't know if it's the best idea to lynch DB right now. I agree with Jackal's reasoning, but I think the outcome of the upcoming night phase will give us more information about DB and this whole affair than anything else.
The reason I don't want to come out with all my thoughts on this issue is that everyone can read what I'm saying. If you're town, think this through carefully and please PLEASE listen to me right now:
So far, as I've said before, mafia has been successful in creating chaos among us. We want ORDER and ORGANIZATION. DB's clowning has led us into a more confused situation. To me, it is suspicious. No medic in his right mind would come out and claim this early, when under NO PRESSURE to claim. DB is claiming he was "under pressure" when in reality this is an appeal to emotion, an appeal to sympathize for his "mistakes" when he was never under any serious pressure at all.
He then pulls a vote on RayzorFlash without ANY reason whatsoever. Again, either DB is full out stupid, or he straight up doesn't give a shit about finding scum. The first means that, if we lynch him and he's town/blue, we'll all kick ourselves, and hard at that. The second suggests he's scum. Right now what do we gain from lynching DB?
Less confusion? Do we have enough information on DB to pin him as scum? I don't think so. So, while I agree with Jackal to an extent, I say that we don't lynch DB today. The night action will give us more information.
Keep in mind, again, that I haven't spelled out everything for you all here. You can form your own conclusions, and if you disagree with me, fine; just be clear. The town can only benefit from clear, well-formed opinions about players, not this muddy "well this guy's lurking let me vote him" crap.
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Also, to clarify, I firmly believe that the night actions, if we don't lynch DB today, will give us more information about DB's alignment. He seems really scummy now, but if he's made a bunch of mistakes (which is certainly possible) then it might certainly be possible that he's a townie.
If he doesn't contribute the rest of the day that's another good clue. Another problem for us now is that we already have a couple cases, and switching votes has proven to be difficult.
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Guys, I have to say, in light of all the confusion and everything that keeps happening I've reevaluated my suspicions and a lot has changed. Since I posted my analysis of Trotske yesterday he hasn't showed up, so I'm still inclined to believe he is scum. You guys should filter my posts and backtrack until you find that, and let me know what you think. Anyway, here is another wall of text (sorry guys) for you all to digest.
On August 24 2011 04:12 hiro protagonist wrote: Ok, this town is full of WIFOM, and it has a name: Dropbear.
This exact situation happened in wherewolfs. day2, someone claims DT, we keep him alive. Town then spends 2 days trying to decide if the claimer is telling the truth or not. we kill him 2 days later: he was a DT. Knowing this, I wish I would have lynched him right when he claimed. We would have lost a DT, but established an important meta: claims that cannot be confirmed must never happen!
claims that cannot be confirmed must never happen
I say there is a 50/50 chance that DB is scum. considering all thats happened today, thats good enough to lynch off of.
##Vote: DropBear
DB, If you town, I am sorry, but you left us in a terrible situation.
xtfftc defense has been fairly reasonable. he has not back away from what he said, and he seems to general feel that he has done nothing wrong. good on ya xtfftc, lets scum hunt.
Also, apologies to GreyMist for calling him out when I didn't notice he was asking for a replacement.
I agree with only one thing in this post: that xtfftc's defense has been reasonable and that he is town. I've taken the initiative to look back on hiro's post, particularly since I've become unsure about Mig and I'm now convinced xtfftc is probably town.
Why would you EVER use such a bad example in support of DB's lynch? You once had a guy who claimed DT and then you suspected him and kept him around, then when you guys messed up and lynched him because you thought he was scummy he flipped DT...
so therefore DB is scum. WTF??
I think you are scum, hiro. Let me continue:
On August 20 2011 17:00 hiro protagonist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 20:42 nard wrote:good morning! On August 19 2011 13:51 hiro protagonist wrote: this game started all ready?
Palmar is scum.
See you in the morning! lol! hiro and I are damaged from last mini mafia where palmar singlehandedly won the game :D hey to both of you. regarding the early accusations: i see nothing yet which lets me believe we have a scum for certain. but i am damaged from last mini mafia: if dropbear ever dies and turns out to be not scum, Palmar is on my hit list :D -__- why does no one remember that I was palmars scum buddy and we won together with some come from behind play, when are 3rd scum got himself killed day one. Palmar and I worked like a well oiled machine. A vote on Palmer on day 1 would be stupid. IMO, saying your got a read on Palmar day 1 is like saying Im sure I solved this crossword puzzle correct even though Im blindfolded. I just been rockclimbing the last 12 hours and I am beat. I will be a active, contributing member of town come morning.
Read the last sentence. Now, keep it in mind.
Next:
On August 20 2011 17:05 hiro protagonist wrote: Curu, Im talking about SNMMII
Also, Im gonna say it again: QuickSilver7's posts are fucking awesome. I dont care if he thinks Im scummy.
Actually, I think he did care if Quicksilver thought he was scummy...that's a real strange thing to say.
Why wouldn't hiro have said "I really like Quicksilver's posts. That's good analysis" and left it at that? Why did he have to add the "I don't care if he thinks I'm scummy?" Because Quicksilver mentioned that he thought hiro's posts were slightly useless and slightly scummy? Instead of replying to Quicksilver with a town contribution, he contributed those two lines.
Again, recall the sentence I told you all to keep in mind.
+ Show Spoiler +I just been rockclimbing the last 12 hours and I am beat. I will be a active, contributing member of town come morning.
Up comes this:
On August 21 2011 03:58 hiro protagonist wrote: Voting Sevryn for now, as a no lynch is bad.
how much time is there before the day ends
and this:
On August 21 2011 04:05 hiro protagonist wrote: @nard I had real life things to do for most of day 1. My bad. I quickly put my vote on sevryn cuz I was not sure when the deadline was, and I dont want a mislynch.
Uhhh...
What?
Hiro was constantly reluctant to contribute posts. Why? IMO it's because when there are posts of substance there are things to analyze. The more hiro posts, the more chance there is for him to slip. Of course, he slipped enough even with the posts he made.
His next 6-7 posts made during day 1 all are devoid of substance and simply involve the bandwagon switch between Sevryn and Rayzor.
On August 21 2011 08:53 hiro protagonist wrote: Sorry Gman.
lets vote RayzorFlash everyone!
First he votes Sevryn and doesn't provide any reasoning of his own. Then later, he votes Rayzor in the same exact fashion. My opinion? Rayzor is probably town and hiro was fine with lynching either person.
On August 21 2011 09:44 hiro protagonist wrote:unless we get a role call from 15 or so people, the switch to Rflash is not gonna happen unfortunately. so for those of us around who think Sevryn is actual a townie we have 2 options: 1. make a no-lynch happen. This would save Sevryn who might be town, but yield no information around a lynch. It would also keep him around as a suspect, and we would still be at square one. 2. We lynch Sevryn. We at least will see him flip, and he might be scum. I dont think thats likely thou. Scumhunting can begin fresh again, as we can focus on new suspects. I dont like it, but lynch looks like our best option
Why not? Hiro again never justified this statement. Did hiro say this because, as mafia, he knew that Sevryn was innocent? I think so.
On August 21 2011 10:04 hiro protagonist wrote: Ok people, heres the deal:
I want to switch to razor. others do to, but if you make the switch you must promise to stay around till the dead line in order to guarantee a lynch. if by 15 min. till the deadline and we dont have enough votes we all switch back to Sev. cool? Say you switch, and there is not enough to make a lynch happen, but you dont switch back to Sev, the consequences will be dire
##Vote: RazorFlash
Making himself look less suspicious for the fact that he was active during the most important part of the day.
Hiro here is trying a little too hard to blend in.
On August 22 2011 02:58 hiro protagonist wrote: Anyone thinking that Palmar deserves to be a lynch target, ask yourself this: how has anything Palmar done hurt town?
Palmar, rage if you want, but you know that any case for you right now is dumb.
Vis, Yes that was my idea. As the day went on, It looked more and more like Sev was town. Mafia, however could sit on him as a vote claiming that they would prefer a lynch to a no lynch. Razor seemed scummier. My actions speak for themselves.
also, I dont think Razor is a good lynch today, there are more important suspects to look at.
Within two sentences, we see a turnaround.
Hiro first thought that Rayzor seemed scummier than Sevryn, and that "his actions spoke for themselves."
He follows up with ANOTHER unsubstantiated statement, that Rayzor is suddenly not a good lynch anymore. Wtf? Why the sudden change in heart?
On August 22 2011 03:34 hiro protagonist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:19 VisceraEyes wrote: Hiro:
Palmar isn't raging. He's trying to manipulate town with an appeal to emotion. I'm surprised he's even trying, it's one of the most obvious scum-tells there is. Regarding Rayzor, if he was a good enough target to risk a no-lynch today with your ill-fated vote-switch, what has changed in your opinion that makes him not-so tomorrow?
Palmar:
You're better than this. Your play has NOT been good, you haven't provided ANYTHING aside from your weak case against DB, and admittedly I haven't read your case against BB yet (I'm working on it). The fact that you're using that as a reason to rage when everyone here knows you're better than that makes me very suspicious. 1. Where did I say that I dont find him scummy? I said there are better targets today. 2. the fact that you haven't even looked at all of Palmars post before accusing him doesn't give your accusation much weight.
Visceraeyes caught onto what I mentioned above. When confronted with this, hiro responds with, well there are other targets. Who? Again, vague "contribution" but in order to actually contribute something to the town cause you have to be specific. You have to have a case; saying there exist better targets without actually identifying them is something mafia would do in order to pretend to contribute.
On August 22 2011 04:56 hiro protagonist wrote:Vis, Im gonna stop responding to questions that can be answered by reading my previous posts. Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 04:13 VisceraEyes wrote: it's like you're saying Rayzor wasn't a good lynch candidate d1 You keep trying to put words in my mouth. why?
What exactly do his previous posts answer? Look at all of hiro's posts up to this one, and you see nothing clearly identifying him as a townie, you see nothing regarding his reasoning for his votes, and you see a bunch of spam/useless one liner posts that are most likely used to blend in, and to pretend to be active.
On August 23 2011 04:12 hiro protagonist wrote: @rayzor: Im sorry, what question do you want me to answer? you seem to think I need to defend my actions. I dont.
I am so down for lynching xtfftc today.
##Vote: xtfftc
I believe that hiro here gets defensive in his manner, but doesn't actually say anything, because mafia tend to want to give away as little information as possible. Hiro doesn't want to substantiate anything that he has said or done for fear that he will slip and make mistakes. Of course, this in itself is a slip, because, by failing to contribute to the town and by failing to provide reasons for votes, he appears scummy.
For the third time, hiro casts a vote on a person without providing sufficient reasoning. He votes xtfftc (and is called out by xt later) with no reasoning at all.
On August 23 2011 04:50 hiro protagonist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:30 xtfftc wrote:On August 23 2011 04:23 hiro protagonist wrote: while you here, could you give me your opinion of xtfftc? who do you want to lynch today? And while he is working on it, how about you sharing your thoughts on my persona? The first time you ever mentioned me was when you voted for my lynching. well, there's this: Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:09 xtfftc wrote: ##Vote: Palmar
He obviously had something in mind and there's no way he wasn't aware of how his accusations would be perceived by the rest of us.
However, his strategy hasn't benefited town by now. He has until the deadline to convince me to vote DropBear or BrownBear. If nothing meaningful comes out of the discussion initiated by him, I'd rather have one less player who throws arbitrary accusations around.
I'd also like to point out that it shouldn't be that difficult to convince me to switch to DropBear, considering DropBear's behaviour. yeah, If I was scum, I wouldn't want someone around that randomly accusing people ether. I mean, why would you want anyone to do something that puts pressure on scum, right?
After xt calls out hiro, hiro responds with the quoted piece above.
Hiro claims that random accusations put pressure on scum. Well, let's think about this for a second. Do random accusations actually put pressure on scum? Do they help find scum? Or do random accusations actually help scum?
IMO, random accusations help scum blend in. Why? Out of 30, 24 of us are town. If you RANDOMLY pick one person, such as what Palmar did, you have an 80% chance of choosing a townie. EIGHTY PERCENT. Thus, for the most part, random accusations will BENEFIT scum because they throw the pressure onto TOWN PLAYERS. This is, IMO, why Palmar's actions were controversial (and I think Palmar needs to change his behavior, cause his spam is annoying the shit out of me right now) and also why he's taken flak.
Again, that's the only thing hiro used to justify his vote for xt. And, honestly, it wasn't very well thought out. Hiro here was withholding information, or like I suspect, trying too hard to blend in by pretending to contribute.
On August 23 2011 05:27 hiro protagonist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:56 Jackal58 wrote:On August 23 2011 04:52 VisceraEyes wrote: hiro, he actually backpedaled on Palmar. Why are you defending Palmar against someone who didn't really find him all that suspicious? Where did Hiro defend Palmar? THANK YOU Jackal. VE, Im gonna say this one more time: STOP. PUTTING. WORDS. IN. MY. MOUTH. If you want me to clarification on something I sad, just say something like "hey hiro, is that a soft defend of Palmer?". Or, how about asking me " yo, mr. Protagonist, what are your thoughts on palmar? do you think he is scum?". that way, I can use my own words, which *surprise!* can be analyzed? your really grinding my gears...
Under the slightest pressure, hiro becomes aggravated here. He actually did appear to defend Palmar:
On August 22 2011 02:58 hiro protagonist wrote: Anyone thinking that Palmar deserves to be a lynch target, ask yourself this: how has anything Palmar done hurt town?
Palmar, rage if you want, but you know that any case for you right now is dumb.
And, in addition, his "vote reason" for xt seemed like a soft-defend as well.
NOW WE GET INTO THE REAL INTERESTING PART:
On August 23 2011 06:26 hiro protagonist wrote: btw, I will put up an analysis on xtfftc when I feel like it.
WAIT WHAT?
Where the eff is this analysis, hiro? You don't feel like it?
I noticed this earlier in the day today. I thought maybe hiro was just busy and he'd come back and contribute. I held out hope. Instead, now, looking at your most recent posts, I feel like you're scum, hiro.
On August 23 2011 07:14 hiro protagonist wrote: Palmar, what is your opinion of xtfftc?
looking forward to what BrownBear has to say.
also, the following people need to chime in and give opinions: Trotske Lucidity Munk-E GreYMisT nard Pyo Kurumi
Again, NO CONTRIBUTION. Just a list of people who need to contribute.
Hypocrite much? You want other people to contribute, but you can contribute whenever you feel like it? Hiro is scum.
AND LAST, BUT NOT LEAST:
On August 24 2011 05:08 hiro protagonist wrote: Wow, Ok, no one likes that idea. does everyone think Im stupid?
##Unvote: DropBear
Im just gonna sheep whoever is the highest vote is by the end of the day.
LOOOOOOOL
"Wow, oops, I fucked up. Time to go hide now."
I don't think you're stupid. + Show Spoiler +Well, maybe a little. Cause you're really not hiding so well. I think you're scum.
So, when people pressure you because you've made a terrible argument, your response is to BANDWAGON AND SHEEP THE GUY WITH THE MOST VOTES.
AHAHAHAHA.
You're mafia.
##unvote xtfftc ##vote hiro protagonist
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On August 24 2011 05:52 hiro protagonist wrote: How cant anyone see how bad town atmosphere has been. Mafia are laughing there Asses of in the QT right now. I want Dropbear dead cuz I Think he is scum. His claim ruined any headway that we made on day 2. Do you think thats an accident? cuz I dont.
So ask yourself this: how has anything I have done hurt town atmosphere? How has any of my post been anything other than scum hunting? I have Hid nothing from anyone, and your gonna lynch me for speaking my mind? when I un-voted DB, It was because everyone else thought I was wrong. Fair enough. But is being wrong mean Im Mafia? Also, I still think im right, but am willing to listen to town when they says Im wrong. Does that make me Mafia?
This will be my only defense in this mater for now. Im gonna use the last 5 hours of my life to find scum, and try and make a good town atmosphere.
You can't use one thing to call someone scum. Your pitfall is that you think you can just accuse someone based on one event. Yeah, DB fucked up the town atmosphere pretty bad by adding a lot of confusion, but most of us agree that lynching him for it is not going to get us anywhere. The reason is because, while causing chaos is a mafia tactic, we cannot lynch DB solely based on that. In order to identify someone as mafia, you need a pattern of behavior that is consistent with being mafia.
I think it's possible that DB is mafia, but his behavior is not as certain as yours.
Anyway, how have you hurt town atmosphere? Well, you constantly ask for people's opinions without providing any of your own. You cop out of EVERYTHING. As soon as you receive some pressure, you disappear or add cryptically, "my actions are my proof." Well, that's real convenient, seeing as you've done next to nothing! You claim you'll come along with analysis or you will contribute when you are able to, yet you continually post things that show signs of pretending to contribute. Your posts are empty, devoid of reasoning.
When you took flak for your DB vote which was based on like...one line and smelled very strongly like you were trying to start a bandwagon, you immediately backed off and then outright said you would just sheep whoever comes along next. You basically admitted to not having anything useful to contribute because you planned to simply sheep whoever has the most votes.
If you have nothing to contribute, then I strongly believe you are mafia.
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