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On May 17 2011 13:05 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +In general i think that only mafia have something to fear from people applying pressure, as townies will be judged by their reactions. Incog telling pointing fingers and telling FW to nuke is exactly the sort of thing that generates discussion and information on people. For instance, if me and incog start pressuring a townie (esspecially if there's not a much of a reason to) and someone else jumps on, then you've just got your self someone who's looking awfully scummy. While pressuring is pretty much the best way right now to go about getting people to talk, it's not really pressure when you try to work 4 different people at the same time. Information doesn't come out of that, confusion and multiple people responding to that fingering pointing does. Oops lolol I wrote this up, went to boil some water for tea, and forgot to post lol
Yes, but I've not been doing it at the same time. I pressured Node, and got a reaction: Two people also pressured him, and for the most part people didn't have that big of a problem with it. Node disappeared. I moved on. I called caller out on some stuff, and then pressured Mr.Wiggles. People started getting angry about the finger pointing. That's a reaction. I gained information from it.
This makes me think that the mafia are getting uncomfortable with the finger pointing that's going on. Am I wrong?
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On May 17 2011 16:23 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 12:29 Kavdragon wrote:On May 17 2011 10:47 Ace wrote:On May 17 2011 10:44 chaoser wrote:On May 17 2011 10:40 Ace wrote: so besides deconduo wanting to die, no one else has anything to say about Incognito telling flamewheel to nuke people along with a host of accusations already on Day 1?
Ok guess I'll just go back to sleep again. This time I'll tuck my gun under my pillow. I noticed it too but before that I wanted to ask. Before you said you saw something that made you unvote incognito. But then you voted him again. Want to share what it was or is it a need to know basis? Kavdragon's posts. Seemed like more bs to me so I was deciding on which one of them I wanted to spend my next nap dreaming about. Then a host of other people started pointing fingers so I decided to go back to the #1 finger pointer himself. Um...Duh? As I've said before, it's day one, and reads are pretty sketchy because of the lack of information. I'll say it again: The best way to get information is to pressure people and look at the response. Any pushes at this point are obviously going to be pressure, not actual attempts to get someone lynched. (Well. Depending on the response...) Look at my posting: that's pretty much all I've done, from my very first post (pressuring Node) to now, pressuring caller and Wiggles. I have a scum read on you too, but I don't trust myself to make anything close to an accurate read on you (especially since I automatically associate you with scum) so I'm leaving you alone. In general i think that only mafia have something to fear from people applying pressure, as townies will be judged by their reactions. Incog telling pointing fingers and telling FW to nuke is exactly the sort of thing that generates discussion and information on people. For instance, if me and incog start pressuring a townie (esspecially if there's not a much of a reason to) and someone else jumps on, then you've just got your self someone who's looking awfully scummy. This tactic has been used by skilled players to great effect so don't tell me it doesn't work. Also, what you said about putting on scum goggles is a very real danger, but it's something that I've been accepting full knowing because again, it's not about making a real case, it's about pressure. If that requires me to purposefully misinterpret posts, then I'll do it. Of course now that you've made me say this my pressure will be less effective... I wasn't going to say anything, but then I realized that I've seen a similar so-called "pressure" strategy many, many times before. What happened? It was a mafia trying to out Blues, and sure enough, Cop got outed Day 1, game went downhill from there: There's applying pressure, and then there's trying to win arguments. What you are doing here is just trying to win an argument. My intention has been never been to just "win" arguments. It has been to get information. If it appears differently, then it is because of my poor skill at this game, not out of any malicious intent. If this has been a strategy for mafia in the past, I was unaware of it. If I am mafia, I think that it will become pretty clear soon as I am both in the spotlight, and posting a lot.
I've been looking around and I've noticed three types of people (many exceptions of course, cough Chezinu cough), which I'm going to group into three categories.
A) People who are taking risks. These are people like Incognito and Flamewheel. B) People who are pussyfooting around and not committing to anything. This should be fairly obvious. C) People who claim to be doing things because it is pro-town while at the same time doing B. This includes people like you.
Your argument is this: if we can get information, it is a good thing. This is the same argument certain players have made before-namely, lynching people is good for information.
Yes, my argument is that more information benefits the town. No, I disagree with lynching for information. I've never said that before, and it's not something that logically follows from my ideals. As I stated earlier, the pressure was never there with the intent to get someone lynched, it was there to evoke a response.
Mafia are not the type of players that take risks. They in fact avoid risks because they have certainty available. Why rely on risk when you have less resources? If every lynch was a 50/50 coinflip between Mafia and Town, Mafia would lose very quickly. Therefore, it is natural for Mafia, whom have an information advantage in this game, to rely on certainty and to avoid risks whenever possible. To that extent, Incognito and Flamewheel both are giving off town vibes. But they are also tricky bastards, so they're still on notice. On the other hand, we have people who aren't committing to anything. This is a sign of either stupid townies or stupid mafia. More likely mafia, because as I said above mafia don't take risks. But they don't matter right now because both of those parties are relatively ineffective this early in the game. Then we have people that are like you. You have played very interestingly-sure, you have been pressuring people, including me, so this could easily be seen as an OMGUS, except it's not. In your very words, you have been pressuring people to get a reaction. That's nice and all, but you yourself have given a reaction in response to Ace's pressure per se. What is this reaction, you ask? It's this: Show nested quote +Look at my posting: that's pretty much all I've done, from my very first post (pressuring Node) to now, pressuring caller and Wiggles. I have a scum read on you too, but I don't trust myself to make anything close to an accurate read on you (especially since I automatically associate you with scum) so I'm leaving you alone. You do three things here: A) Said because I did X, therefore I am not fishy. B) Said to the pressurer that you yourself are fishy, therefore your opinion doesn't count C) Said "I find you suspicious, but I'm not going to do anything about it and instead go after other people." D) Have essentially provided cover for yourself through saying
Not at all. First explained my behavior, and summarized it for Ace. Then I told him that I was suspicious of him, which is true, but at the same time I publically acknowledge that I don't trust my read of him. If I didn't think his opinion counted, why would I continue to talk/respond to him? Like I said, I don't trust my ability to read someone who is as skilled a player as Ace is. It's not something that anyone could accurately read day 1, so I'm leaving it alone. I said all that to show him that I am indeed thinking reasonably, and not blindly donning "mafia goggles".
Show nested quote +Um...Duh? As I've said before, it's day one, and reads are pretty sketchy because of the lack of information. therefore justifying any consequences that may potentially result of your actions. Your entire argument basically boils down to "I'm doing this, therefore I'm advancing town's cause, therefore I'm a townie, therefore anything bad that happens is not my fault because I'm a townie."
No. That's a terrible excuse, and not one that I can claim. Townies do bad things all the time. Look at what Dr.H did to me in my last game: He lynched me day 1. I still hold that his play style created a hostile environment. Townies can still do bad things, and it is still their fault when it happens.
Except this is the scummiest possible argument possible. You don't commit to anything, in the interest of just "getting reactions," and absolve yourself from say, the likelihood that your scum team is going to use the fruits of your "pressure" to figure out who has the stronger roles and shoot them first. You even proceed to make intentionally weak arguments such as using numbers to find mafia-in your own words you even admit that it was a shitty strategy.
Would you say that I have not committed to this strategy of getting information, even when ace criticized me for it since my very first post? In addition, don't think that I didn't mean the FoS's that I put out. Those were actual opinions on who I think is scum. I don't apply random pressure, but I wasn't willing to wait for a full case to be found on day one either.
Show nested quote +You miss the point entirely. The numbers were never something I used to figure out who was scum, but simply a way for me to narrow down who I will focus my posting on. It makes me (and hopefully others) post opinions on who they think is scummy. The numbers add NOTHING to my argument towards someone, they simply were the means by which I selected someone to analyse. And you admit that's how you argue, as well: Show nested quote +it's not about making a real case, it's about pressure. If that requires me to purposefully misinterpret posts, then I'll do it. So we have someone who's playing safe, making shit arguments so people can argue them, never commits to anything-just "pressures until he gets a reaction"-claiming this is all in the name of the greater good, that everybody else should follow suit, and so on and so forth. You've layered your arguments with lots of defenses and absolve yourself of responsibility. This isn't something town does-look in this post, made by someone whom is quite possibly a sneaky bastard but is giving out strong town vibes:
I claim all responsibility for my actions. For instance, when I started throwing fos around, I never intended for lots of people to follow suit. If everyone is doing what I am, then it just becomes a confused mess. So I consider myself responsible for starting random fos's, and I'll try my best to shut them down without being hypocritical.
Show nested quote +Also, I'm so glad nukes are public. Let me prove I'm not America.
##Nuke: infinitestory
When no nuke kills my fellow staff member at the end of the day, we'll all be happy. Actually, that's not true. If somebody hypothetically had actually chosen America, they could launch the same nuke. Good luck with that, though--I can check and then shoot anybody foolish enough to do that in the following nights.
Now just let me do my thing and check, protect, and/or shoot people at night.
This man has balls. Shrugs off an accusation by doing the most direct thing possible. Personally takes responsibility for any holes in his actions. Isn't afraid in general. Seems a bit different, eh? In any case, given the above, I'd like to continue the fingerpointing. ##FOS Kavdragon
As I said, it wasn't about getting everyone to point fingers. I'm not saying that people shouldn't point fingers at me, but that we don't need everyone pointing fingers. I welcome both the spotlight that you say I have been avoiding, and the FoS, and under pressure, I am confident that my town alignment will be clear.
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@Ace/Caller/everyone else.
My strategy early game of using bad arguments was because of the lack of information to start with. I don't think that there is any point to continuing this sort of play at this point in the game, so I'll stop. Barundar had a good point: We pressured some people for the first half of the day, but it's time to consolidate targets. The time for lightly pointing fingers is over. It's time for votes to go down.
The last thing we need is 10 lynch targets.
@Barundar: Where are you getting that the copycat gets to pick a role if a vanilla is lynched? The copy cat gets the first powerrole to die. Vanillas are ignored.
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On May 18 2011 02:13 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 19:42 Radfield wrote:OK, sure Barundar is an excellent lynch target, but I'd much rather lynch further down the list today, and we have plenty of excellent targets lower town. An alignment check on him tonight should do the trick anyways. Kavdragon is putting in lots of effort, and making mistakes. If anything this looks pro-town, not anti-town. Incongito is too great a town asset to lynch off his Day 1 behavior, especially since he claims he's been out of town. (By the way, I appreciate that you ignored all my posts and then called me an invisible poster ) On May 17 2011 15:07 Eiii wrote:On May 17 2011 12:53 infinitestory wrote:Oh, speaking of which, I'd actually like to apply some pressure myself. + Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 10:31 Eiii wrote: Oh man, decon just made himself the perfect placeholder vote candidate. Or maybe even a good lynch candidate! :D You haven't been posting much, and you suddenly appear to simply bandwagon deconduo. Generally, placeholder votes are put on yourself, by the way; right now, it looks like you're just voting without caring who you're voting for. The lynch is important. It's a reliable way to weed out mafia, given that people vote intelligently. What is your reason for voting deconduo? Do you believe he is mafia? (If not, who are you watching?) Do I think decon is mafia? Probably not, after pulling a post like that. Do I think that there's a decent chance we're going to lynch mafia today if we ignore decon? Nope. Do I think that lynching someone who's either VI or a townie with apparently no role who's lost interest in the game and probably won't contribute much is better than tunneling in on one or two 'suspicious' posts from an active player or one who looks lurk-y now for whatever reason but could hold a helpful role or perk up and contribute more in the next few days? Definitely. Look, I don't ever have much confidence in day 1 lynches. Like ace has said, it just seems like sifting through peoples' posts and emphasizing possible reasons that they *could* be scum. I don't see anything that makes me especially confident that we're on the right track today and I'm pretty clueless so far as well. At best decon is VI and we take him out of the game early and avoid lynching someone green tonight. At best-best mafia is retarded, and decon is a red zombie or something. At worst decon is for some crazy reason lying and actually holds the most useful role in the world but decided to tell us to kill him just for fun. Probably decon actually did have a specific set of roles he wanted to play and he wasn't able to pick any up, so he's not that interested in playing the game. In terms of people I think are scummy, I think caller and chez have been posting pretty dumb things, but that's about all I've got I think you're wrong here Eiii, lynching easy targets(like non-contributing or inactive players) only helps the mafia by giving them an easy out. We have an absolute ton of info so far, and a decent chance of killing scum today, better in my mind than any other normal game, since we basically have a 96 hour Day 1. Easy targets who give us nothing at this point: Deconduo, KillerSOS, Fishball(hello? FIshball? Are you there? Are you playing?) OriginalName: Tentative, Spammy, Jokey, One Liners.... even has a standard medium length contributy post which says almost nothing. Unfortunately he has been called out by several other scummy players, so he could just be an easy target. Mr Wiggles: Did a small amount of leg-work looking at roles, Medium sized posts with minimal info, recapping, content to continue discussing plans and roles. Best of all, he makes a very long-winded post after getting called out, which is full of various themes. A good target tknted: So far I'm undecided. Contributed a few ideas, and a bit of his own opinions which is good. Yet to weigh in on the lynch. Please post more. Node: Decent target. Talks about the mafia over and over, what they would do, why they would do, how they would do. Then proceeds to spam it up, direct suspicion at chezinu(always a safe play). He also semi-defends Kurumi, which is good, since kurumi is an easy target to pick on from the looks of things. There is also one other player on my list, who I think is the most likely to be scum and our best target. I would rather not pressure him/her right now though, because I want to see what they do on their own.In the absence of talking about my last target, I think the best lynch for the moment is Mr. Wiggles. Anyone agree or disagree? I've got problems with all of those bolded claims. 1.) Doesn't matter where we lynch right now. We have no idea about where Mafia got their spots, and if Barundar is indeed the scummiest person then he gets the lynch. No tradeoffs. Thing is he isn't scummy at all. All he did was ask for people to stop throwing out scum accusations every other post - and I agree. It will be too easy to just get a random person lynched with this much division. 2.) Effort does not equal pro-town behavior. If you make mistakes, especially blatant ones like mass accusations or using terrible arguments under the guise of generating discussion then you aren't much different than Scum trying to act like they are getting things done. If he has played in games before then this should be clear by now that doing this is not good for town. 3.) No one is too good to not lynch in this game. More so than Kavdragon, Incognito threw around accusations and even worse reasons. The vote for Killsos (omg kill sauce?!). @flamewheel: Being silly is no excuse for getting a free pass. Either way we've got more than enough "contributions" from enough people already. Asking any more people to contribute for now will just serve as clutter because honestly - nothing new is coming from anyone today. It's time we consolidate our votes on a few suspects, get the lynch off, and get the DT to check the list. Yo guys are wasting time with this senseless finger pointing. Incognito is the scummiest person so far. I like how he even told everyone to "go back and read the thread", while not even pointing out what in the thread is so important it requires a re-read. Pretty much just giving orders and no follow up in an effort to look active. Kavdragon is scummy too, but since some people like bumatlarge want to play daddy day care guess he can't be lynched yet. 'tis ok, I've got my gun though.
I would dare you to shoot me tonight, but I've already found out what happens when I assume that people are smarter than they actually are.
What you suggest is a very passive style of play, which in a high KP game like this, is suicide. We cannot stop working to find scum, even day one, even after a good deal of information has been gathered.
You are suggesting that we just sit back, relax and take a break until the lynch so that the DT can check the lists? You are saying that we should rely on the Mafia 2 dt, and other blue roles to win the game for us. It's been said by BC, Ver, Foolishness and countless other vets: WE CANNOT RELY ON BLUES. Sitting back and just chilling till the Mafia 2 dt does their work is not an option.
Really? You know better than this. Shutting down the thread is like giving the mafia a free extra night.
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On May 18 2011 02:13 Ace wrote: Either way we've got more than enough "contributions" from enough people already. Asking any more people to contribute for now will just serve as clutter because honestly - nothing new is coming from anyone today. It's time we consolidate our votes on a few suspects, get the lynch off, and get the DT to check the list. Yo guys are wasting time with this senseless finger pointing.
How do you suggest that we get more information then, Ace? The way I see it, the only people generating discussion (and thus information) have been pestered by you from the start, and you haven't been helping get ANY information. What am i supposed to think?
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On May 18 2011 03:44 Ace wrote: You've got 30+ pages of discussions on plans, tons of accusations, and votes. What more do you need? Stop this "lets get more information" bullshit. You've got enough. The only people I've "pestered" are you and Incognito because both of you are bsing.
Who else have I pestered? Show me my posts where I haven't contributed while ignoring all the discussion I've generated. You say I haven't been helping to get any information?
Show me what you've gathered then. And don't give me some bullshit "this guy is scum because I can see through his posts" bs. That post Caller made against you was a decent example of how to break down what's going on. Notice he didn't come back 5 minutes later with another accusation?
So show and prove hombre. You won't have the chance to post on Day 2.
I don't want there to be understandings as that leads to chaos, which benefits mafia, so let me be clear.
This is how I play town. Go look at XXXVIII. Look at XXXVI. I'm not that great at picking up on small scum tells, and I know this. I can't do very much with limited information, so it is vital for my scum hunting for me to get as much information as possible. Sorry I'm not as good as the pro's, but I'm not going to let that stop me from trying my best. I don't think that what I have done has hurt the town, and I KNOW that it has helped me. Am I wrong?
I admit that I was frustrated with your play earlier, and after looking back at your play, you do contribute some to the discussion, but not as much as I would like. You're not as bad as most people so I'll leave it be, but so you know, these are the types of posts that really frustrate me: + Show Spoiler +On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote: here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? This exchange with Gmarshal. You use deconstructive criticism to bash his plan. Regardless of whether it was a good/bad plan, it is in the town's best interest to create a positive environment, and the way you go about refuting his plan is doing the exact opposite. This is evidenced later by Gmarshal stating that this was one of the reasons why he stopped posting. Even if he's bs'ing about that, you gave him something to hide behind. On May 14 2011 12:07 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:36 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:25 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:17 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote: here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? Yes, yes I did, I fail to see your point, if we know who has the PoD and we go into a double night then we vigi shoot him right off the bat, or lynch him if that isn't an option... Same with the other roles, assuming the plan is actually followed where is the flaw? And if its not followed what do you propose? Everyone picks whatever they want? I feel like thats going to end with the mafia holding enough powerful roles to roll over us by denying lynches/converting people. 1.) Can't know if your "assigned" roles went to the right person. 2.) Won't know if the role went to town or mafia For the chance of tying a few people to roles and not alignment you'll be giving Scum information on where the roles went. Lets not forget that unlike any other PYP game the amount of killing roles in this game are pretty high. 1.) *if* we agree to follow the plan then we will, because if they are town they will pick them, in the interest of benefiting the town, and if they are scum they don't want to be caught at a lie. And we'll be able to tell if the power was picked earlier since the person picking it will get vanilla. However I agree that this might be a weakness of the plan, is there any way to remedy it? 2.) It wont matter, if they are town they will never use the role, if they are mafia we will know if it is used, and will be able to kill them for it, thats the reason for assigning the activated anti-town roles to these players, rather than passive anti-town roles, its *really* easy to tell if they've been used. On these people being killed by the mafia, then those anti-town roles are out of the game, rather than power roles, I dont see the issue with them being focused down. I can't say I'm comfortable with letting townies pick whatever they want, I feel like thats going to lead to the mafia snagging powerful roles and the town overlapping too much in the role selection. Still this plan cannot work if the people in those positions don't agree to it, so we should be in agreement before the draft order comes out. I fell asleep reading this More of this. That's not helpful at all. On May 14 2011 12:35 Ace wrote: *nods in agreement with bum's post*
I'm not doing any work though. I feel like relaxing this game. This is what your attitude has felt like most of the game.
Now, what have I gained from my pressure? Honestly? Not a lot. Node dissapeared, but no one seemed to mind that three people fingered him without much to go on. Node's reaction seems scummy to me, but the fact that no one cared (other than you) makes me think that he's just bored town.
When I fingered Mr.Wiggles, many more people started getting upset. This makes me think that Mr.Wiggles is scum, more than his reaction which I wasn't able to read.
The most beneficial thing that I have done was get lost of people upset about my fingering, because many people posted opinions, and gave information about how they think, which will be useful later as we can cross-reference what people are saying then, with what they said now.
@Node: The way I read ace's post was that we should stop posting or feeling around for information until the lynch. What I was suggesting was that we, as a collective, start posting to apply pressure to those who are in the spotlight.
Out of curiosity, Ace, would you be shooting me because you think I'm mafia, or because you're just annoyed? If you think I'm mafia, would you mind bringing up a case? (Other than "he's bs'ing")
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On May 18 2011 08:02 Radfield wrote: Kavdragon, you need to cool it and not respond to every single attack against you. Someone will always disagree with what you say, and keep in mind that some people are actively trying to mess with you. Arguing, which is what you're doing, is not good for the town in general, especially at the end of a Day when we need to find a lynch target. You need to focus less on yourself, and more on the other players in the game.
What I'm trying to say is: if someone wants to attack you, they're probably not going to be swayed by any counter-arguments you make. So wait to defend yourself until several people are ganging up and questioning you, or until someone makes a serious case against you. What you're doing is cluttering up the thread a bit, and making it harder to focus in.
No hard feelings or anything, I just want to slow down your posting a somewhat.
Generally speaking I don't like getting into arguments like that, but there were two other things i wanted to accomplish: The first was to give more information on myself, become more transparent and easier to read. The second was to get more public information on Ace. I still don't trust myself to read ace, but that doesn't mean that the other vet's can't. Ace is the best scum player in this game as I've said before, and I saw a chance to get him to talk. So I continued to argue with him with the hope that it would draw out useful information.
Of course he'll probably say that that ^^ is BS, but I don't care anymore. The argument has reached the end of it's usefulness.
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@incog
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 08:32 Incognito wrote: Also Kavdragon, who has this strange fixation to defending himself without saying anything about me or pushing an alternative. Um, firstly, I HAVE talked about you. I've been defending my style of play, something very similar to yours early on. I've mentioned you in many of the examples I pointed out to ace where he was putting down early "bs" pressure. I'm not pushing you as an alternative because, as I have already said several times, I don't like lynching good players day 1. Day 1 reads are hard, and I've never been in favor of risking them on valuable players. You are a valuable player AND I supported what you were doing, so why would I suggest you as an alternative? On May 18 2011 08:59 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 06:28 Kavdragon wrote: This is how I play town. Go look at XXXVIII. Look at XXXVI.
Incorrect. Here's a post from XXXVIII. Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 06:43 Kavdragon wrote:Screw it. I'm still 10 pages behind cause i had a sound gig I was running this morning, but this needs to get out there asap. (Sorry if it ignores stuff that has happened since page 31) Protactinium is Red. Dr.H is Red.First and foremost, don't let anyone fool you into thinking that the mayor is a unimportant role. It's EXTREMELY powerful, and VERY helpful to the town. This is a problem for the scum team, so they need a plan to bring it down quickly. So what do you do? First, you try to get a member into the office. It doesn't matter WHICH spot because they are both told the names of the bodyguards, and it doesn't matter HOW it's done, because the person put into that seat will be a sacrifice. Letting one of 8 members die is an excellent trade if you knock out the mayor, and secure the pardoner's role for it. As a bonus you can knock out most, if not all meaningful discussion the first day. Now how can this be done? Have one member claim assassin, have another intimidating member bully and be extremely negative of everyone else running for mayor. My case for Protactinium v1.0 Protactinium has done only one thing so far, and that is announce and defend his Assassin claim Gambit. An interesting, and somewhat appealing plan at first glance, but upon deeper inspection doesn't make sense. I know that Protact is a VERY skilled scum player. He's a good player all around. This gambit of his is a huge risk, because he doesn't know if town will let him in. If he played it quietly, he'd have a better chance than most. He says he came up with a new way to try to survive: become pardoner. It makes sense for a little bit, because that spot is protected. But there's a problem: As he has said multiple times, he wants to use this to get into the endgame, where he can throw his last hammer and then be done. It would work if the mayor lived that long, but to quote foolishness, "Mayors have a pretty high mortality rate". He wants to hid behind bodyguards, but look how fast they fell in insane! Over all, there is SOME validity to the strategy, but not NEARLY enough for someone of Protact's skill level to try it. It's not his level of play. It doesn't make sense. On the other hand, what if he's Red? It'll become apparent enough pretty quickly, and he'll die. So that makes no sense, right? WRONG. There are 8 players on the scum team, and the mayor is a very powerful role. You can cause TONS of havoc from this position, and if you play it right, you might even be able to survive for a few days and stop a lynch. It doesn't even matter if the lynch was going to kill a townie or mafia, because when you flip, people will see that mafia stopped a lynch, and that person is sure to be lynched again. This saves them a whole day either way. This is EXACTLY the level of play I would expect out of an excellent scum player. Before you say that Mafia wouldn't sacrifice one of their better players, it's was done before when Protact and BloodyC0bler were playing in XXVIII. Protactinium is SCUMHe is my currently on my "to-be-lynched" list, and even if you don't agree with my conclusion that he is definitely scum, you cannot deny that there is a strong possibility, and because of this, he should not be voted into office. No question.My Case for Dr.Helvetica v1.0 I've only played with Dr.H once before, and that was in Salem. It was my first game, and I was subbed in. he played EXTREMELY differently in that game. He was positive, helpful, and gave good insight and ideas freely. This game he has been extremely negative of almost anything suggested. He has used his considerable prowess at being intimidating to bully players, and stomp on very pro-town ideas. On top of that, he has been posting TONS and been pretty spammy about it too. There's a lot of new players, so what better way to scare them off than to drown them with hundreds of posts? On April 10 2011 04:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote: kavdragon is saying a lot of useless bullshit trying to appear protown and basically his posts are this:
words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words
obviously no mafia would say THIS much "pro-town" stuff that everyone already knows amirite ;o????
i'm not buying it. you did this same thing in pokemafia which i hosted Stomping on my attempts to help newer players. On April 10 2011 11:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote: so many words gmarshal
so many words Stomping on Gmarshal's attempt at running for mayor. On April 10 2011 13:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 10 2011 13:31 tnkted wrote: Yeah we better make this clear:
when you vote, vote in both threads. that way we can see who voted for what.
not voting in this thread will be considered a scumtell, so be careful. no its not a scumtell ill vote in the vote thread im not gonna waste my time posting all my votes in here especially since i tend to switch votes a lot this is dumb. there will be a dedicated vote thread. if you want to know who votes for who, you can read that thread. less clutter here = better Stomping on Tnkted's EXTREMELY PRO TOWN IDEA. All of this is EXTREMELY ANTI-TOWN no matter how you look at it. Everything he is doing is clearly designed to snuff out new people so that we have tons of inactive players. Doc H is a good mafia player, and there's no way that this is not being done on purpose. Doc H is mafia, and he's doing a damn good job of both spamming the thread to pieces, shutting down pro-town ideas, and intimidating new players. These are just a few examples of how he is destroying a pro-town environment in the thread. I think that everyone has seen this for themselves though. He has almost 100 posts and it's not even half way through day 1! He has contradicted himself multiple times with his mayoral campaign (I'm not going to run --> Mayor is unimportant, and i wish it weren't here --> I can't trust ya'll, I'm going to run). The reason why he singled me out so early was because I am dedicated to doing exactly the oposite of what he is trying to do. I will not get sucked into an argument with him that will spam the thread. I will not stop posting good advice for newer players. I know it looks scummy. I don't care. It will help newer people, and that's worth it. If I can mobilize the the masses before i die, i die a happy death. I refuse to stand by while he destroies the learning environment I am trying to build up. DoctorHelvetica is SCUM This comes early Day 1. Notice how bold and confident it is. Was he wrong? Yes. Honestly, his case is made off of very little information and many assumptions. But that didn't stop him. After his first accusation post he keeps pushing. Even after this, he keeps mentioning his thoughts. All throughout the day he points out scum. Not "gathering information", but real accusations. He accuses at least 5 people throughout day 1. Even when DH says he will consider lynching him, Kav remains aggressive, maintains his focus on DH, and dares DH to lynch him. That is aggressive, risky play. Now look at this game. Kavdragon suddenly retracts into his hole, is "afraid" of good players, and needs to poke for information. He doesn't follow a coherent train of thought, and his defense isn't anywhere near convincing either. He doesn't strongly accuse anyone of anything, and his defense shows that he cares a lot. Overall, strong case for red. ##Vote Kavdragon The reason why I kept pushing was because the Dr.H thing was NOT a pressure play. I honestly thought that he was mafia, and I was making a serious attempt to lynch him. And regarding Dr.H saying he'll lynch me? How is that any different than Ace saying he'll shoot me? I continued to argue with him long after he threatened that. I've never said I was afraid of good players. If that were that were the case, why would I have picked a fight with Ace, and why would I be responding to you? On May 18 2011 09:29 Incognito wrote: For the sake of completeness, lets compare Kavdragon's play in XXXVIII and this game to XXXIV (Pokemafia).
In Pokemafia, Kavdragon comes up with a long LSB accusation. Nice and all, except that he doesn't follow up. A few posts later, almost nothing is mentioned about LSB, and he goes off to vote some other random person. Compare to this game, where Kavdragon makes an accusation on Node, and then lets it get buried in the thread.
Now I'm 100% certain Kavdragon will be lynched, so here's my suggestion. Keep the votes close among the 4 candidates, with Kavdragon in the lead. If any "save Kavdragon" agenda appears to be occuring, everyone has my full blessing to ignore the assigned vote lists and ensure that Kavdragon is lynched. You fail to mention that I brought the case against LSB well after day one. I've never been aggressive as scum day one. Are you looking through mafia goggles? Honestly, lynching anyone who is vocal day one is a bad idea. I've said this in previous games, when I was town.
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I have to go now, but I will say this: If you look at my previous games my behavior will make sense. Perhaps some people won't see it, but of anyone in this game, Incog and Foolishness should.
If I'm dead when I get back, I still hold that node and wiggles look scummy. Wiggles more so than node. I wish that we could lynch him tonight, but time is probably too short.
Wiggles is doing a good job of looking like he's contributing without actually doing anything substantial.
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Just got home hope this isn't late. In response to Incog's comparison of this game to XXXVIII: I got lynched. The guy who I was sure was mafia wasn't Mafia. Neither were you.
Do you honestly expect me to repeat that same behavior?
Also, since I won't be able to post this after my death: All newer players, please take note of the fact that Incog, Ace, and Caller all read me wrong. Vet's are not as good as anyone thinks, including themselves. The only thing you should be afraid of is their egos.
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Or I'm not going to be lynched. W/e. Analysis of Ace incoming. Might not have a connection to send it out by till tomorrow, but it's coming.
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Huh. I though that the day ended at [time]2100 PDT[time] That was an hour ago, right? We it looks like people have decided to lynch me so I'll expidite my analysis of Ace.
You know what? Screw this. Vet's are overrated and I'm done giving them any sort of special consideration.
My case for Ace
Ace has done little to help the town, and done lots to hurt it. He's suggested scummy plans, and discouraged good ones. Town agrees that the less Kp is good for the town, Ace picks a KP role .
Ace thinks like mafia better than anyone, so the time that he could be most useful to the town is durring the planning phase. Instead of contributing, he deconstructively bashes Gmarshal for his plan. Gmarshal's plan was PRO TOWN and a GOOD IDEA, but poor in the details. Allowing the mafia to take power roles is, and was a bad idea. Instead of helping him refine the plan, or suggesting something different, he says this:
On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote: here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming.
When Gmarshal takes the time to explain his reasoning, he ignores him, replying with
On May 14 2011 12:07 Ace wrote: I fell asleep reading this
This is an absolutely useless post for the town, and discouraging to a player who is posting opinions. Gmarshal clammed up after this, and stopped posting his ideas. What ace did was damaging to the town atmosphere.
Later he posts this:
On May 14 2011 12:35 Ace wrote: *nods in agreement with bum's post*
I'm not doing any work though. I feel like relaxing this game.
I didn't say anything at the time because I figured it was just a vet with an attitude, but since then I've decided that I'm through with letting this sort of thing by.
He finally comes in and agrees with something, but he contributes NOTHING at all to it. Wtf? Then he states that he's feeling lazy, and wants to relax this game? If he didn't want to play he shouldn't have signed up. This sort of attitude is anti-town, and shouldn't be allowed.
After that he attacks the next thing that happens in the town: The fos's that Incog and myself started. Ace waltzes in and dismisses the behavior with one of his "I'm going to sleep" lines, and adds nothing to the discussion. He doesn't care to explain himself. He just pops in, says "lol" then leaves. This continues for some time where he makes no real contribution.
He made this post talking about how I was look at things through "mafia goggles",
On May 17 2011 10:09 Ace wrote: Find 1 post - make it look like someone is scum.
Look at 5 posts by said person with "they have to be scum goggles" and find things that aren't there.
Then he posts things like this, where he does the exact same thing to me:
On May 17 2011 13:10 Ace wrote: All you're doing is throwing more suspicion around on aeveryone within your vicinity and hoping for a lucky hit. Big difference between "generating discussion" and "lets see where this dart lands". You're playing darts, I'm playing Connect Four.
--------------And now I'm going to be lynched, so let me be brief.----------------------------
Ace continues to be furstratingly negative towards most activity, and starts waving a gun around. I feel like Ace is being useless, but at this point I don't think that he's mafia. I think that he just doesn't know how to play a good townie. I don't think that a mafia ace would have argued the way that he did with me, and I think that the whole gun thing was just a bluff (or not, doesn't really matter) that he used to pressure people. Maybe that was his way of getting information, but whatever.
Please look at those people who said that they were uncomfortable lynching me, then voted for me anyways. (Hint: Gmarshal)
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On May 18 2011 11:57 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 11:43 Incognito wrote:So what you're trying to say is: you're ignoring my analysis because you don't like the way I'm playing. Oh wait a second, thats what you did last game! And you turned out to be mafia. Please don't disappoint me. I've posted analyses on Kavdragon here and here. I'm ignoring your analysis of Kav, because as I said its all based on meta considerations. While those are nice to supplement already solid analysis they are a bad thing to base your cases exclusively on, as peoples attitude and style can change from game to game. As I read it your analysis boils down to "he played more aggressive last game, he isn't as aggressive this game". The only thing that might sell me on that lynch is the fact that he isn't pressing any of his accusations, he fingerpoints and then doesn't push for that targets lynch, which, *independent* of meta consideration is a trait of mafia who look to be contributing without contributing. Especially considering all the time he had to "gather information", however I don't think that that alone is damning enough to push for his lynch (and before people say that that's what I did with df and killerSOS, I left killer to the vigis, and am not going to push df and thus derail what seems to be a decent selection of lynch targets). I'm not ignoring your arguments, just saying that in my mind they don't seem to be that solid, come back with posts that show pushing for mafia objectives or a non-town mindset behind them and I'll get behind the kavdragon lynch, but you are going to need something more solid than "he is playing different" to sway me. Ace plays different every game, do we lynch him for that?
This turn around is BS.
On May 18 2011 12:45 GMarshal wrote: Fuck it, I read callers argument against Kav, and I think its the most solid piece of analysis in this thread, no meta considerations, just behavioral analysis. And frankly it makes sense...
Here's hoping that Caller isn't mafia and is just swaying my vote. If you are town, I apologize profusely Kav, nothing sucks more than being the day1 lynch, but it needs to be someone and the case against you makes sense to me. Plus we need to consolidate our votes, we are far too spread out at the moment.
##Unvote ##Vote: Kavdragon
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Good luck town. You're going to need it.
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On May 29 2011 13:49 Incognito wrote: I don't get why my Ace analysis was pretty much ignored after I got shot. I really thought that was a good analysis, as well as a nice instructional guide on good mafia thread control, but oh well.
That analysis was GOLD. My favorite post in the game.
To those who lynched me day one: You fail at meta reads. The biggest thing to pull from my town meta is that I make lots of mistakes. I'm not careful about what I say, so I end up messing up some things. Like my defense when incog attacked me. My scum play is much more careful. I don't say things that will make people suspect me, but as town I disregard any risks.
Also, RoL kept telling me to pick VI, but I wanted to make sure that the most imba role ever (M2DT) got picked. Would have been so funny if i had listened to him.
Oh, and my scum list immediatly after dying was:
Ace (Or possibly incog, but not both. Ace for not voting me and calling people on my vote list "scummy", after attacking me and calling me scummy)
Dreamflower (for hiding behind the "i'm not used to PYP stuff" too much, I must have missed her analyses of Ace and Caller...)
Tnkted (For lurking)
Mr.Wiggles (Because people reacted when I pressured him)
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On May 29 2011 22:14 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 16:07 Kavdragon wrote:On May 29 2011 13:49 Incognito wrote: I don't get why my Ace analysis was pretty much ignored after I got shot. I really thought that was a good analysis, as well as a nice instructional guide on good mafia thread control, but oh well. To those who lynched me day one: You fail at meta reads. The biggest thing to pull from my town meta is that I make lots of mistakes. And thats exactly why you got lynched. This isn't a meta problem - it's just you making mistakes. The town would be foolish to say "oh its just the way Kavdragon plays, let him get a pass". When you screw up chances are you get lynched if the town is playing correctly.
I never said in there that my play was something that should have kept me from being lynched, but people were pushing me because of meta reasons, and they missed the biggest point from my meta. I agree that the mistakes I made were what lead to my lynch, but the people pushing for my lynch because of my meta were getting my meta wrong.
Oh, and I agree that the Scum played a good game after the roles were picked. I think that not organizing your numbers so that they didn't clash was a dangerous game to play, and in the end it hurt you much more than it helped you. You needed better roles with all the power roles out there, and you couldn't do that with most of your team on the bottom of the list.
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On May 30 2011 01:45 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 01:42 Kavdragon wrote:On May 29 2011 22:14 Ace wrote:On May 29 2011 16:07 Kavdragon wrote:On May 29 2011 13:49 Incognito wrote: I don't get why my Ace analysis was pretty much ignored after I got shot. I really thought that was a good analysis, as well as a nice instructional guide on good mafia thread control, but oh well. To those who lynched me day one: You fail at meta reads. The biggest thing to pull from my town meta is that I make lots of mistakes. And thats exactly why you got lynched. This isn't a meta problem - it's just you making mistakes. The town would be foolish to say "oh its just the way Kavdragon plays, let him get a pass". When you screw up chances are you get lynched if the town is playing correctly. I never said in there that my play was something that should have kept me from being lynched, but people were pushing me because of meta reasons, and they missed the biggest point from my meta. I agree that the mistakes I made were what lead to my lynch, but the people pushing for my lynch because of my meta were getting my meta wrong. Kurumi does not understand because every sentence has "meta" in it ;u;
Meta is a players background in the game. If i know that Ace likes to lurk in the shadows as scum, but comes out and is really vocal as a townie in all his past games, then I can compare that play to this current game and say "Oh, he's lurking. His meta tells me that he is scum" (fictitious example ^^)
Kitaman: -_- I've learned my lesson. I'll be VI every game from now on.
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On May 29 2011 22:43 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 22:37 bumatlarge wrote: Agree with most of the stuff Ace, but Kav's thing was ridiculous. People called him out for being too pro-town. Nothing else. If you look back, everyone called him out for trying too hard, or some other shit. Again not Kav's fault, it was bad town's fault. I agree town was bad, we were doing awful first 2 days and won with power roles. The chaoser, Barundar and KillerSOS wagons were all so damn ridiculous and they weren't even scum driven. I didn't even VOTE on the Kav wagon and it still happened to my amazement. But Kav made many mistakes. Somehow, some way even with the Kav/Barundar/Incog wagons going on no one sat down and looked back at how they were formed. The only person to bring it up later was Incognito iirc when he said I was pushing the wagon and then didn't even vote for Kav while also undermining him. Of course it got ignored.
That was one of the things that I facepalmed about several times after I died, because I noticed it but didn't point it out. You called me scummy, you pushed me, and then when it came time to lynch, you didn't vote me, and you called people voting me scummy. I was going to point it out (actually typed it up) but for some reason it ended up not getting posted. I think IS pointed it out, but he too was ignored.
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