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doesn´t help finding the scum that are good at looking like scum
If there's scum that look like scum, we'd find them easy. Go read past games but being active, looking for contradictions, for forced posting, for wishy-washy stance taking. Those are all usually weaknesses of scum. Scum obviously find it hard if you start to build a legitimate case against one of their own, even more so if you push them to take a stance on an issue. As the game goes on it's easier and easier to find connections between people and those who flip red when they die. Just post constructively, pressure people you find scummy, and you should be fine. Keep a straight head on your shoulders and a clear mind.
Be on the look out for people posting things that aren't very helpful and generally talking in circles cause that's usually another scum tell too.
@orgolove I think redtooth didn't actually play in those games, he just posted that he wanted in but cause he was banned, he couldn't play.
@kitaman, what do you think about the various people coming to Irish's defense with weak chainsaws? Newbie townie or devious scum?
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On May 04 2011 18:12 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:09 AirbladeOrange wrote:On May 04 2011 14:09 chaoser wrote:
Ok, so I posted that line just to see how people would respond. You can see that I didn't even post in the actual voting thread and already I think I've got some good reactions. Irish, why such a big response, going so far as to posting a link to another website, even saying that you would dismiss me and "not waste time on trying to convince someone I'm not scum". I didn't even actually vote for you, I posted some bolded words that could have easily been knocked down since there was no analysis behind it, and no logic behind it; it had nothing behind it. Why so serious? Why such a big reaction? Same thing to chaos13.
At the same time, why so much silence on the issue from people who were clearly present? Kitaman? You pop in to say that people shouldn't edit but you don't mention a single thing about Irish, a single thing about me, and a single thing about anything. What up? I think this long of a post is more suspicious than anything irish punk dude said. He does have a few points, people need to make constructive posts, even more so with a 30-player game. Also even this early it´s a good move to call out people on their scum-tells.
There's no real such thing as a scum-tell per say. TL doesn't really do the MS "You said good job to medic when he saved someone, you're scum!" kind of deal but there are limitations to what mafia can and can't do. Or at least feel comfortable with doing. If you look at XXXVII, you'll see that mafia found it very hard to make cases against each other and that ended up catching a lot of them. If you look at XXXXVIII, you can see that mafia were decently wishy-washy. By wishy-washy I don't mean they changed their opinions on things, but that they changed them based upon nothing, merely to please the rest of town.
In Simple Mafia, Town because Mafia were inactive and allowed town to dominate the discussion. Even so, you'll notice that most of the time it was town arguing against town, using weak arguments and trying to figure out alliances before anyone even flipped. That's bad play since you don't know how mafia will act towards each other. They could bus each other a bit, they could act friendly, or they might not interact at all. The point is that you should focus on a few people and then make judgements about connections AFTER the flip. On day one, conversation generation is the most important thing, even if it IS the 30th game we're discussing about lynching inactives or not. Pressure is also a good conversation generator and I know for a fact that GM's question asking helps too.
Mafia wants town to have no direction and I'm sure in this game, where it's filled with mostly newbies, the mafia aren't going to go out of their way to help newbie townies. As such, redtooth get's +townie points in my book. Townies should be sure to ask coaches for help and read over guides conveniently localed here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=215574
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Why are making such a huge effort to appear pro-town chaoser?
Excellent question sandroba. I'm sure it's a question that a lot of newbies ask and I know I've asked it so here goes.
In the game of Mafia, yes town should be suspicious of all actions but there comes a point where it's no longer prudence and it's more paranoia. Look at the end of XXXVIII. Even though bum and DrH had proven time and time again that they were townie, at the end of the game, people still threw up weak "What If?" arguments against them. I, myself, was suspicious of Kavdragon for helping townies with his guide posts but was later explained to by Foolishness that Mafia would never go out of their way to do such a thing and when taken together with the rest of his actions, showed that he was clear green on Day 1.
So what I suggest for everyone, and this is what I do, is to open up an excel sheet or notepad and make down every instance you have felt someone was acting "green" or if they were acting "red". Slowly amass said list so that in the end you can have a picture of what people are doing. A player that has done green things all game is more likely to be green than to be red.
So the answer to your question is, if I'm town, how SHOULD I act? If being TOO pro-town is scum-like then well, lol, we're pretty fucked huh? All townies should want to look pro-town, because all townies can should be doing a better job at being pro-town than scum should. If every townie played pro-town and helped to develop a good environment (useful contributing, helpful advice, actively trying to scum hunt, using good logic) instead of one filled with fear, paranoia, and doubt, then catching mafia would be easy.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147475
Go read Ver's guide about creating a good atmosphere here. For insinuating that I'm scum cause I'm acting "too-townie" is ludicrous at best and character-smearing at worst. FoS on sandroba.
@chaos13...please answer kitaman's question about your statement. It's odd that you would say that about being associated with Irish. Townies should in general be ok with associations since they have nothing to hide while mafia don't want to be associated with each other.
FoS List-o-doom
Irish_Punk
sandroba
chao13
At the same time, I'll write more tonight after my final but I expect those people who've been on TL Mafia for a while to be contributing heavily and that means:
Jackal58
redtooth
aidnai
GGQ
Amber[LighT]
kitaman27
ilovejonn
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EBWDP:
So the answer to your question is, if I'm town, how SHOULD I act? If being TOO pro-town is scum-like then well, lol, we're pretty fucked huh? All townies should want to look pro-town, because all townies should and can be better at being pro-town than scum can. If every townie played pro-town and helped to develop a good environment (useful contributing, helpful advice, actively trying to scum hunt, using good logic) instead of one filled with fear, paranoia, and doubt, then catching mafia would be easy.
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Why shouldn't I point out in my post that helping out newbies is pro-town? In the statement that I made, I mentioned redtooth doing it, not me. I think my posts do a heck of a lot more talking about my alignment than this one little nit-pick.
I didn't say, "look, helping out newbies is pro town okay? OKAY?!?!? NOTICE THIS!!!"
I said, I think redtooth has shown townie behavior and here is the reason why I think so (He was trying to help people).
I don't need to copy redtooth's behavior to be pro-town lol and I don't think our posting has been similar at all aside from the general undertone of "Help new townies." His advice is more general while mine is very much indepth and explanatory. Trust me, I highly doubt mafia would go out of it's way to arm the opposition with weapons that would make their life more difficult. Mafia would rather have half the players inactive and the rest having no idea how to actually play the game.
My advice has been solid. I have shown that I'm not afraid to be connected to multiple people.
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On May 05 2011 00:56 Kurumi wrote:
Drop Chaoser discussion as scum.
He will be probably shot this night because he is good at Mafia and is staying really pro-town.
It is good to see some lurkers waking up!
I got a final in a few hours so I won't be posting for a while but this post is interesting. Why should the discussion about me be stopped? If anything it should continue so as to shed more light on people's alliances/alignments SHOULD i get shot tonight. Gotta provide more substance in your posting besides "he's good at mafia and he's acting pro-town" How am I acting pro-town? What do you think about the advice I've given? What do you think about Irish? sandroba? chao13's weird post?
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On May 05 2011 01:00 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 00:56 Kurumi wrote:
Drop Chaoser discussion as scum.
He will be probably shot this night because he is good at Mafia and is staying really pro-town.
It is good to see some lurkers waking up! Why? Why would you advocate dropping any discussions about who is scum? This post stinks like scum.
Agreed. And with that, I'm off to finals.
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EBWDP:
Oh, and same questions to you Jackal
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On May 05 2011 01:16 Kurumi wrote:
I just note that his behaviour is different from Irish_Punk's and it looks pro-town,because of trying to make party going
Your posting structure here and in general is clearly very different from your general posting structure:
Kurumi Poland. May 02 2011 21:16. Posts 415 PM Profile Blog Quote #
On May 02 2011 21:11 Gheed wrote:
This post has a lot of truth in it. The standards dropped A LOT nowadays. The things that were free aren't and they're not that cheap. Companies go for quantity,not quality. The games that are coming out are a big disappointment for me,starting with Spore,ending with games such as COD series..
On April 22 2011 19:14 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 17:44 sleepingdog wrote:
The first thought that popped into my mind was that 2 gate pressure vs zerg could have a revival. 2Gate early pressure was a great build and You could expand safely behind this,though Blizzard saw that almost every top Protoss opened 2gate expand,lost nothing,most of the times denied FE of Zerg and made him not drone enough. I guess they won't bring back 2gate like it was.
On April 10 2011 06:49 Kurumi wrote:
Versus 15 hatch You might do Nexus First/1gate FE to make it even,if You can't succeed with pressuring Zerg.
2Gate Pressure like from Beta might work,remember the continous Zealot production,You can store chronoboost after 2 Nexus ones (it's basically 12 and 14 gateway)You'll probably make him get around ten lings and at least one spine crawler,while You can transition into 4gate,FE or whatever You feel like.
On March 31 2011 23:35 Kurumi wrote:
Zergs are the reactionary race,that's because they were designed like that. Zerg units counter something hard or die horribly. (Try using banelings vs high hp armored units or mutas versus phoenix). It's not like we can sprinkle a unit into EVERY composition and it'll work fine. (Like Marines or Stalkers/Sentry) Many early timings are not being used by Zerg because they can't break the wall-off without doing some sort of all-in. That's why they try to stall the early game and then in mid show some teeth.
P and T have entire early game to dictate the course of the game.
Why are you trying to misrepresent your competence after making a scummy post?
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Sorry, I didn't see it. He has a good point about not going straight for lynching inactives as well as previous game experiences. I disagree with his newbie guides statement. Clearly some people need to use it so making a conscious effort to link them and be like please read them in full is needed. I'm sure most people have skimmed them at best and outright not read them at all at worst. His last statement is wishy-washy.
Assessment: I don't think it's more scummy than you, Kurumi or Irish/chao13 at this point. Just because he shot ideas down doesn't mean he's scummy, that's him expressing his opinion. At the same time, clearly what he stated isn't common sense/obvious since people followed along and focused on previous game experiences. You can't just look at one post and say OMG YOU'RE SCUM! It's behavior over time that tips you off on it. Like I said before, if you feel he is scummy, write it down on a notepad or excel sheet (which is an action I know MOST people DON'T DO!) and compare it to future statements.
At this time and period though I think Kurumi is infinitely more scummy.
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Back from finals with thoughts on Kurumi and the rest:
Kurumi's posting has been weird, it has been borderline trolling and he jumped very quick to defend and call for discussion about me to stop. That immediately made me very suspicious of him. He then continued to contribute nothing but nonsense in an obviously anti-town way. But does that make him mafia? Not necessarily. Many of you are new but we use to have a player, ocz3c who also had very absurd posts. He posted in such a way because he wanted to draw reactions out of people. Do we know at this point what Kurumi's goals are? No. Is the evidence against him strong enough yet to say he's definitely scum? No.
But there is someone who has been acting a lot more suspiciously. Irish_Punk13
1) His reaction to my barely there pressure on him was an overreaction to say the least, I already mentioned this in another post earlier that you can go look up.
2) He said that he wasn't going to "...waste time on trying to convince someone that I'm not scum when I can actually be looking for them..." but he has yet to do much hunting. Aside from his post against AO:
Okay, for now my vote is going on AirbladeOrange for his last post. I don't like the fact that he's okay with the idea of lynching town. Kurumi is making some great posts so far, and I think he's most likely town based off of his actions so far. The fact that you think it's okay to lynch him tells me that you're probably scum, so I'm putting my vote on you.
which uses a very WEAK argument, he hasn't done much. (AO said he was essentially OK with a policy lynch on Kurumi, this has been stated by, more times than not, many townies over the 50+ games that have occurred on TLMafia) and made it out to be a HUGE scum tell. Like I said before, usually behavior is what gives scums away, not a single post. His blowing up of the post leads to my next point:
3) This weak argument was then used to chainsaw defend Kurumi
(Definition of Chainsaw Defense)
Irish_Punk immediately starts a bandwagon on AO after heats starts on Kurumi and look at how fast it grows with people basing their decision on that one single weak post.
Irish_Punk 4:23
Kurumi 4:24 <---this is important
KillerSOS 4:26
Why is Kurumi, who just previously said he was suspicious of Irish_Punk, immediately switching his vote to support Punk's FoS? He didn't even question it, he changed his vote from Irish_Punk to AO after only a minute had passed.
4) He is wishy-washy.
On May 05 2011 03:54 Irish_Punk13 wrote:
Okay guys, I just woke up, so I'm going to be reading over this a few more times so I can try to get a good post up.
I should be posting up within an hour or so with something useful, but for now I have to go look to see how another game is going.
Says he just woke up, will read and then post a GOOD post
On May 05 2011 03:58 Irish_Punk13 wrote:
EBWOP
One thing I did notice while looking over this before is that Jackal58 isn't as active as he has been in other games that I've seen him in. Even in the one that I played with him before he was more active than he has been on this. I'm not saying that this definitely points to him as scum, but it is a little odd.
Adds on a edit after 4 minutes had passed. That's not a Edit By Way Of Double Post. That's a new post. In it he throws suspicion on Jackal58 but backs off almost automatically.
At this point, there is suspicion on Kurumi but the case against him isn't very strong. The case against Irish is much stronger and his flip will be very telling of Kurumi's alignment.
##Vote: Irish_Punk
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On May 05 2011 08:30 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:24 Beneather wrote:On May 05 2011 08:22 Forumite wrote:
Of these three, I think we have the least to go on with AirbladeOrange, because he´s only got 4 posts so far. He looks more like a slow poster that made a few scumtells. Could you analyze these posts. So that we can see the scumtells you are telling us. We can't just bandwagon a guy just you say he has 4 posts and had a few scumtells. We need a little more than that. I looked at his longest post. The other 3 are mostly oneliners. One thinks Chaoser is suspicious for doing an analysis early, the others looks like they are asking Irish questions, or asking questions about Irish.
You know post count and length have nothing to do with actual scumminess right? Foolishness when he plays rarely posts but he makes his posts count when he does. You said AO posted four times only. At least he's taking stances in his posts. Kurumi hasn't taken a real stance at all. He said he was suspicious of Punk and then voted WITH Punk as soon as Punk started the AO wagon. I'm inclined to look at behavior, not post count or post length. Go read previous games please. You'll see that focusing on these issues do nothing to further the town agenda. I don't know if it's because you are a new player or what but I've got my eye on you.
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Jackal, what do you think about Kurumi's vote switch to AO as soon as Irish_Punk chainsaw defended him?
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On May 05 2011 08:48 Forumite wrote:
Does this mean you think AO is scummy and I´m wrong in my analysis as I missed that, or that you only object to the way I look at posts? I don´t focus on short posts, but I still read them.
What? I don't think AO is scummy, where do I say that in my post? I said your analysis is FLAWED. You're trying to spin a sweater out of a tiny piece of yarn. Out of the three, AO, Kurumi, and Irish_Punk, the latter two have acted way more scummy in both singular posts and behaviorally. Irish says he'll contribute but he always say "after I deal with this other game". He posts a weak argument against as heat starts to appear on Kumuri and immediately Kurumi votes with Irish even though he had previously said he thought Irish was mafia. Kurumi also tried to stop actual discussion over the topic of me, trying to buddy up to me. How is AO's posts WORSE than all that put together?
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wait, sorry, was I reading someone else's posts and totally responding to the wrong person? lol
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On May 05 2011 08:22 Forumite wrote:
Of these three, I think we have the least to go on with AirbladeOrange, because he´s only got 4 posts so far. He looks more like a slow poster that made a few scumtells.
Ohhhh, my bad dude, I thought you said he had the MOST to go on. 4 hours of sleep = eyes blurred lol
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One day I hope I get to be tunneled by Jackal lol
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Come on dude...I even linked to a definition of it
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On May 05 2011 10:02 KillerSOS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:57 Mig wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 09:50 VarpuliS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:45 KillerSOS wrote:
chaoser
He has been sitting back after his initial strong posts. I think he knew he brought suspicion on himself with his original long posts. I know he is a long time player and he seems to be careful to not be in the front of any debate. If I had to vote for anyone I would vote for him atm.
Chaoser has been very pro-town in his posting across the board. Being super-vocal day 1 is a sure way to get killed night one. It's the players who haven't posted any real content that we have to worry about. I agree with varpulis here. And I would add I think it would be a pretty huge mistake to vote for chaoser on day1, unless we had some really damning evidence. He was one of the best players in the last TL mafia. It would be too big of a risk to potentially lose one of our best players unless we were very sure. I'm not saying I am going to vote for him, just saying to me he has had the largest jumps in posting history and it show'd up on my nooby radar. This may be due to real life commitments, it's impossible to tell.
Please don't misrepresent me lol.
TL Mafia XXXIX
44 69 73 90 102 121 140 203 208 211 226 242 246 267 283 284 291 295 297 310 312 341 342 345 349 350 351 362 368 452 467
I feel like my posting has been pretty consistent. I had a final from 4 to 6 today that I already mentioned and aside from those 2 hours + time I spent previous to get to the test room and go over the material with friends, there has been no "jump". I have a 84 post "jump". There are players who have way larger "jumps". Get your facts straight buddy.
That being said, I have no qualms with anyone bringing a good, well thought-out argument and discussion to me about my play an alignment. It's very important to not get complacent with trusting one guy and depending on one leader.
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On May 05 2011 10:31 sinani206 wrote:OK, back from practice. + Show Spoiler [Redtooth] +
He is probably the most confusing player right now. First he accuses Irish for no reason, but then takes it back, followed by a policy post. His excuse was that he was trying to see how quickly people defended Irish, but what if that was plan B? Redtooth hasn't posted in a while now, and this has kinda died down, but I just want to remind everyone about what happened earlier. Don't just throw things away as soon as he makes an excuse.
Chaoser was very aggressive at first, of course starting with his accusation of Irish which was followed by additional aggressive posting. But then he calmed down a little. Is it because his Mafia buddies told him to, so as not to be targeted? That is the main question I have here.
Aggressive, but in a neutral way. Nothing he has said swings me one way or the other. He plays very well. You get a star! lol.
May have overreacted to accusation, but that was probably just surprise... I don't blame him. He then blames AirbladeOrange, which isn't too suprising. More on him next.
Very suspicious with not much of a defense. Possible vote right here.
Posting, but no real substance. Another possible vote.
Very analytical, no aggressiveness.
Nobody else really stands out enough or has enough posts for me to analyze their play. Just keep posting, people!
So...nobody else stood out except those that you looked at but then you voted for someone that didn't stand out for you and not the one you have marked down as "Possible vote right here" (AO)
On May 05 2011 10:39 sinani206 wrote:
##Vote: Kurumi
Huh? I'm confused by your actions. Please explain.
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EPT
