Merc Micro Mafia

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Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 06 2011 03:42 GMT

#24

/in

Hope I'm not too late.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 07 2011 04:36 GMT

#35

Woot woot! Let's get going on this.

So, yes there are alot of items and strange dynamics to this game, but this does not eliminate the need for discussion and analysis. So, with that in mind, what do we want to discuss?

Merc Mafia specific game dynamics:

*How do we want to treat the extra KP that the town has?

*The RPG can't be used by the person who has it, should we assume that the rest of the items work this way? How does this effect the town's strategy?

*It would appear that we have no traditional blue roles. There may or may not be items to fill in this gap. If we assume that everyone has a item/ability, and it's KP related, then the town has a big advantage if they can utilize it.

I have some other questions, but hopfully we can start a discussion with that.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 07 2011 04:56 GMT

#39

Hmm. It seems likely that the mafia will not have the ability to kill you during the day, so I think that we can wait on giveing you protection till you make your kill. That way we can verify your ability claim.

Then again, would day kills show up immediately, or on the night post?

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 07 2011 05:28 GMT

#43

That sounds like a reasonable idea to me. Let's get this discussion rolling.

I personally think that you should shoot a lurker. I doubt that the mafia will risk lurking if there is the threat of an immediate kill looming over their heads. And even if we do hit a Townie, at least non of the mafia will be lurking, and we'll be able to find them through analysis.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 07 2011 05:47 GMT

#44

On January 07 2011 13:51 LunarDestiny wrote:
I can shoot every DAY, not night. AND I can shoot as soon as the game start.

Wait, does this mean that you can fire two shots the first day? One at the start, and one during the day? Or did you just mean that you can fire your daily shot as soon as the day begins...

Also, Can we begin trading now, or do we need to wait for the day to officially begin?

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 07 2011 18:10 GMT

#49

I don't think that it's necessarily that dead of a game, even if we miss both targets. We would likely still have people who would have night KP, and they might be able to pull it off. However, I do agree that it will be very shaky if we do miss them.

It seems like the town has been given a lot of power, and if we aren't careful with it, we'll get ourselves all killed. That being said, the 96hr first day should give us a lot of discussion to analyze. I've been struggling with what the town should do with their ability/item(s), and I think that the answer is just to play it by ear. If we have clear targets, then we should use the extra KP that the town has. If we don't then perhaps it is more prudent to wait till day 2. Either way, I don't see this game going to day 3.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 07 2011 18:47 GMT

#51

Well this certainly changes a few things.

Something that I would like to point out, is that I believe that every townie has a ability, or item. This means that the town is incredibly powerful right off the bat. It wouldn't be a balanced game if the mafia didn't have something to even the playing field. Also, the town has the ability to kill at least two people today, while classic mafia would have to wait till the end of the night to kill their first person. This is a pretty huge advantage, so I'd expect something equally OP for the mafia. Let's not underestimate their abilities. (And yes, this means that I have to reconsider just how likely it is that Mafia would not be given a day KP like LD has.)

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 08 2011 04:53 GMT

#56

We have a virtual free day here. Let's not forget that when factoring in how much information we have.

Here's how I see it. We all discuss who we want to lynch. Once the day starts, LD kills them. Then we have another 48 hrs till the next lynch. Because LD has claimed, we get a free day. This should mean that we will have enough information to go by if we are all active. So heck, why not start voting?

LD-Lynch: Vote Annul

Reasoning to come...

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 08 2011 07:03 GMT

#59

On January 08 2011 15:19 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I have plenty of time to obsess over this game.

Please do!

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 08 2011 19:51 GMT

#62

Ok, so the reason I voted Annul was that he posted a bunch of questions, and then dissapeared. If you're going to be that active at the beginning, and being active is good for the town, why stop?

Is it a bad reason? Yes! Do I care? Not yet! Why? because I was planning on unvoting it. I just wanted to see what people thought of me voting without reason.

LB-Lynch: Unvote Annul

With that out of the way, I feel like the conversation has kind of dropped off, and I really don't like that. I'm not the best at finding scum, so I'm having a hard time working with the material that we have so far. I would like to see more discussion of items.

To start, should we discuss items? How much information is it prudent to let out? I mean, theoretically, the mafia know a lot about two members (themselves) where town knows a lot about only one person (themselves). So would it be a good idea to have a mass reveal? The town would gain more information than the Mafia...Would it be worth it? Is it a good idea for the town to trade items? Should the town try to end the game today with all the KP it has? Or take it more slowly, and try to make the game last longer?

These are all questions that I'm thinking about. I actually have answers to a lot of them, But I'd like to see someone other than me talking about this.

Also, please remember that there really isn't anything like a LYLO this game. If there's one mafia, and one town, town can still win. It ends when only one party is standing.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 03:46 GMT

#74

Both questions have already been answered. It shows up immediately, and he cannot kill at night.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 04:11 GMT

#76

I can vouch that both are active in PM land. I believe that chipmonkey is reading up on the forum at this point, and RoL has already made his intentions clear.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 06:30 GMT

#89

On January 09 2011 15:20 annul wrote:
ok so literally if there is a DT, i can promise you the game is over if you claim to me.

if you are dissatisfied with my plan (once you prove DTness), lynch me.

Lol, game over for town, or mafia? =D

I'd like to hear what LD has to say about this.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 17:28 GMT

#95

I'd actually agree with Annul on this. I think that everyone should vote "no lynch". That way once we actually do want to vote for someone, we don't lynch anyone unless over half of us actually vote. I wish we had something like this in TMM3.

I'm not pressing for a no lynch, but I think that everyone should vote that, so that the default is no lynch. Just as a security measure, if there's only two people who vote, I'd rather not let only them control the lynch.

##Vote: No lynch

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 17:46 GMT

#96

Oh, but don't forget that we need to vote for LD's target. I believe he said that he wants to take the shot in the middle of the day, so that would be tonight at 7. Not a ton of time, so let's get moving on this.

A few people that I'd like to see/hear from are RoL, who disappeared right after he said he would be "obsessive" over the game, and Chipmonkey, who has a few posts, but hasn't contributed a whole lot.

Also, regardless of the items, we should not drop off analysis. I plan on posting an analysis later, but I'm going to be away for several hours so it may be a bit late in coming.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 21:15 GMT

#125

In my experiance, heated arguments like these occur between two townies. Let's not jump to the conclusion that one of them is Scum.

I currently believe that Annul is town, based off a lot of information that i trust. I strongly disagree with his lynch currently. Don't let the mafia rush this.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 21:26 GMT

#127

I think that the evidance that I have to the contrary is enough to convince me that a coincidence is NOT out of the picture. He claimed day-vig. That marks him as a target. He said that he wanted protection, but he couldn't ask for it till he had confirmed his ability. That was due today. It's a good idea for mafia to kill him now, rather than risk it.

I'm not totally sure about either of you, but right now the argument it telling me you are both town. So don't kill each other without a really good reason. reason.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 22:01 GMT

#129

RoL: You were going to give the vest to LD, because you thought that he was town. Why didn't you give him the vest earlier, then leak a contract to annul that said that he wouldn't have it yet? The bearer would have known that a hit would take place, and LD would have been alive. This seems like a dumb trap to me.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 22:07 GMT

#131

No, LSB confermed that YOU wouldn't know if h was hit. LD would though. If you had told him the plan, easy catch.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 23:13 GMT

#136

On January 10 2011 07:07 Kavdragon wrote:
No, LSB confermed that YOU wouldn't know if h was hit. LD would though. If you had told him the plan, easy catch.

Care to answer this?

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 09 2011 23:26 GMT

#138

I can confirm that RoL has a vest, and Annul has the money RoL gave him in the trust. Some of the money from RoL's trust has been used.

This confirms the claims that RoL, and Annul both have protective abilities. Make of that what you will.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 00:47 GMT

#139

On January 10 2011 05:03 Nemesis wrote:
Things are rather getting interesting...annul claims to be unlynchable. Well let's put that theory to the test. And what exactly is his ability to protect RoL?

##Vote: annul

It's been confirmed that he is NOT unlynchable. If you are going to stick with that vote, you're going to have to explain it.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 01:13 GMT

#141

On January 10 2011 05:52 annul wrote:
okay. well, apparently i am not unlynchable.

Show nested quote +

Read the forum.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 01:13 GMT

#142

Oh, and ebwodp, he didn't lie. He was mistaken.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 01:54 GMT

#144

And I would like to remind everyone that both could be town, and we should be looking for two people. Not one. I strongly believe that it would be better to see if we can find someone else who is a strong lynch target. If we can't, I understand. But i think that we can find one.

Some people say there isn't a lot to analyze. I disagree. Firstly, it doesn't take tons of posts for someone to post something that is incriminating. Secondly, we have 4-5 pages of content, and only 7 players filling them. I think that's plenty of content. It's just that everyone is getting distracted by all the items/PMs. Town wins the game because of good scum hunting. We should not assume that town will use their items cleverly, and win it that way. For the town to use KP we need to know who to use it on. This requires scum hunting. So let's go scum hunt.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 04:58 GMT

#147

Nemesis, I'll get to your question in a second. Chip:

Look: Everyone knew that he was a day vig. This means that he's a prime target for mafia. They very likely some sort of day KP, or they could have traded for it. The only suspicious part is that it happened in the window of time when Annul knew what was going down.

Obviously LD wouldn't kill himself. That doesn't mean that one of the two is mafia. The mafia knew he was a good target, he was calling for protection, and he was scheduled to make a hit tonight. It makes sense for him to be killed at that time. Again, it's not a coincidence that he was killed before he took the shot. It's a coincidence that it happened after Annul found out that LD would be protected, and before he actually got the protection. You your self said that you expected the mafia to hit him last night

If we lynch annul, and he's town, then that doesn't mean that RoL is mafia. I think he's town. Let's not make rash assumptions.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 05:42 GMT

#149

You cannot share your ability descriptions with us. So how would we know that you don't have more than one ability? I believe that you have a protection ability, but how do i know that you don't have another ability that can kill?

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 05:59 GMT

#151

But this will not include a description of your protection ability, right?

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 18:35 GMT

#169

Ok, so just to check, LSB: Night begins at 11:00 KST, correct? KST is same a Liquid time, right?

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 18:53 GMT

#171

This argument has officially made the transition to spam. Please stop fighting. You've both made your points. I still think that it's possible that you are both town, blinded by each other, but I concede that it's become a shrinking chance in my mind. Personally, I don't think that either of you are makeing very good/convincing arguments. However, the information that we will gain from the lynch of one of you would be valuable to the town at this point.

For now, I beg of you, RoL, and Annul: Take a step away from the argument, and consider the possibility that the other is town. You two are the strongest players we have atm, and I'd hate to lose all of you because of a blind rage towards the other.

Nemesis, I think that you are just jumping on a bandwagon that you think is safe. I've watched you for a while, and I've come to the conclusion that you look like scum. I can't post the reason just yet, but I will before the lynch. I doubt that this vote will do anything anyways, as enough people seem pretty set on lynching Annul.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 10 2011 23:20 GMT

#193

Hey, reading the forum. Anyone who wishes to speak with me, I'll be in irc. #mercmafia

I would like to talk to everyone who is here, privatly to some. I have almost no time, so sorry if you get there too late.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 00:01 GMT

#194

Alright, I plan on being back later, but I have to commute right now. This is a PLACE HOLDER VOTE: I will make my final decision later, but for right now, this seems like the best course of action for the town.

RoL, it hurts to do this. Terribly sorry If I'm wrong. ##VoteRoL

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 01:50 GMT

#197

Precious was my kill, Annul. Don't ever take precious away from me.

##Vote: Annul

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 02:19 GMT

#220

Lol. I had a grenade on Node, and had the vote to lynch RoL. Guess I screwed up, but RoL played wonderfully. Tho, for the record, town could have won if annul hadn't given Node the protection.

Damn you RoL. You played me like the fool i was. For the record, I was still convinced that Annul and RoL were both town at the end, but my end game plan was to kill everyone, and annul had the best chance of screwing that up.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 02:27 GMT

#227

On January 11 2011 11:21 annul wrote:
kav you didnt think. i told you in IRC to stop this shit

your logic to me was "ROL would be pissed if i voted him, he has been my mentor and he was very angry id vote for him, i dont want him quitting TL mafia"

absolutely atrocious.

Lol, that was what i told you. I was never that honest with you in irc about my opinion. I voted RoL because the best evidence I had at the time was against RoL. You're lack of help with me was what pushed me over. I wanted information, all the info you could give me to help with the decision, and you never really told me that much.

The reason why I killed nemesis was that he accepted my item. I gave him a fallacious description that clearly stated that if someone killed you, they would also die. Unless they were mafia. That item has absolutely no use to a townie, so I figured if he wanted it enough to buy it, he could have it.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 02:30 GMT

#231

On January 11 2011 11:23 annul wrote:
i find it utterly inconceivable that given ALL the evidence, you believed i was more red than ROL. you knew one of us had to go. you chose me. why?

i would like to see your rationale, i really would. why did you choose me as more scummy than he, when i was claiming medic and could prove it?

I didn't think that either of you were scum. I thought that you would be able to stop me from being able to kill everyone else. I told you this was my goal earlier. That never really changed if you didn't notice.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 02:45 GMT

#241

Out of curiosity, who was the contract guru? Who had the most money at the end of the game?

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 02:49 GMT

#243

Oh, and I openly admit that I made a mistake. Hind sight is 20/20, and there were a lot of contradictions having to do with what RoL said he would do, and what he did. In then end I couldn't decide which was which. The spammy arguments were a big deterant, but I won't blame it on that. With no easy decision, I decided to kill Annul, becuase he would be the biggest deterant to my plan. His protection could save everyone from me. It's unfortunet that Annul protected Node, but it wouldn't have happened to me if I hadn't switched votes.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 02:50 GMT

#244

Btw, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6910802

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 03:26 GMT

#254

On January 11 2011 11:55 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:

Show nested quote +

hmm? What did I say to do and then fail to do?

Oh, you said that you were going to get obsessive about this game. You had very little in thread contribution prior to your giant argument.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 03:28 GMT

#255

On January 11 2011 12:24 LSB wrote:
Oh yeah, forgot the most important question.
Was it fun?

Absolutly. Even though I screwed everyone over and lost, It was still the funnest Mafia game I've ever played. I loved the fast pace of everything, and I actually liked the PM/Contract stuff.

One thing that I'm realizing is that a lot of assumptions were made based off of this game being balanced. It's a test game. Should have guessed that it wasn't actually that balanced. Oh well.

Kavdragon

United States1251 Posts

January 11 2011 04:16 GMT

#259

Haha, rigged vests? Called that. Good thing i wanted to set up the trust for the vest. Should have noticed that you dropped it once I said that i wouldn't put it on till you flipped town.

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