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On December 11 2010 12:14 Thegilaboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 12:10 LSB wrote:On December 11 2010 12:04 CubEdIn wrote:On December 11 2010 11:58 LSB wrote:On December 11 2010 11:51 CubEdIn wrote:On December 11 2010 11:38 LSB wrote:What will I do as mayor I will hold a secrete ballot for the first elections. And I will post who voted for who afterwards. You know, mafia loves to redirect the first election? This will make it harder for them to. This is important for many reasons. Say we're going to lynch inactives. One is mafia, one is town Mafia: "Yo! Lets bandwagon this guy!" Town: "We'll their both inactive so I guess I'll vote for the town" Annul: "You guys lynched a townie. Sheep =P" Now. Imagine my system LSB: "Person A and Person B are inactive, please send me pm for who you vote for" Town sends PMs. Each person has about a 50% chance of dieng. Mafia doesn't have that much influence. Annul: "This person is mafia! Woot Woot!" In addition, I will not be able to influence the vote because I will post who voted for who afterwards. So if you see something messed up, you can call me out of it. (Of course, this also means that we got a great way to catch mafia). Let me tell you the loophole in your plan there, buddy. Say you're mafia. People choose two people to lynch, townie and mafia. You rig the "anonymous" votes and lynch the townie, even though most people voted for the mafia. You can never be checked/blamed for that since people agreed to secret votes. So yeah, that's not gonna be in the best interest of town IMO. In addition, I will not be able to influence the vote because I will post who voted for who afterwards. So if you see something messed up, you can call me out of it. (Of course, this also means that we got a great way to catch mafia). People will be like, "YOU ARE WRONG!" if I try to manipulate votes. Oh right, I didn't read that part, but it still gives you a certain degree of manipulation by hiding some mafia votes, if you are mafia. Like say the townie is winning by 7 votes, you switch 3 of the mafia votes to hide them, the difference is less significant, town is more confused. Just saying tho, I don't really care since it's just one night. Firstly, vote manipulation is always done by the mafia. In public it can be done easily. All the mafia has to do is make sure they either vote for other people or push a townie bandwagon. In private, they won't be able to predict who is going to be lynched. Secondly, if I'm mafia, you can examine the votes a wee bit more carefully. This way you'll have a better indication of who is mafia. See? Even if I'm mafia it's better for you! Thirdly, I'll accept someone to be the 'auditor' who also recieves votes Would we vote for this auditor too, or would you be picking them?
What is this auditor position and what is it worth to us? Whatever it is it should be voted from the town, if the MoM does choose it could be a fellow Mafia and both would have the biggest influence on the town.
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
On December 11 2010 11:38 LSB wrote:What will I do as mayor I will hold a secrete ballot for the first elections. And I will post who voted for who afterwards. You know, mafia loves to redirect the first election? This will make it harder for them to. This is important for many reasons. Say we're going to lynch inactives. One is mafia, one is town Mafia: "Yo! Lets bandwagon this guy!" Town: "We'll their both inactive so I guess I'll vote for the town" Annul: "You guys lynched a townie. Sheep =P" Now. Imagine my system LSB: "Person A and Person B are inactive, please send me pm for who you vote for" Town sends PMs. Each person has about a 50% chance of dieng. Mafia doesn't have that much influence. Annul: "This person is mafia! Woot Woot!" In addition, I will not be able to influence the vote because I will post who voted for who afterwards. So if you see something messed up, you can call me out of it. (Of course, this also means that we got a great way to catch mafia).
Oh wow, this already started.
Anyway, no. Wtf? We can't let just one person have all the say on the ballots. Your "secret vote" just is a means for you to control the outcome.
The only way we can get mafia to slip up is through open votes.
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On December 11 2010 12:14 Mr.Zergling wrote:
I think LSB is making himself suspicious by proposing a 1st kill voting style that can be easily manipulated
I actually think this debacle has made LSB come out looking pretty town. there's no way he wouldn't have thought of these objections if he was mafia and he would have realized that no sane town would ever agree to them.
If we really want to have a private vote and have an auditor, we should have 5 or 6 of them, chosen by RNG, to really ensure there is at least one town among them. Or is that too paranoid?
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Ok so my one problem with voting for Meapak_Ziphh is that he has goals of expanding his role as MoM beyond the one given power that he has. The MoM gets to decide first lynch, but has no other abilities or benefits, no bodyguards or anything of the sort beyond that. Plenty of past games have seen the GF getting into mayor position and controlling town actions, while having the additional benefits of being a mayor. In this case, our MoM has nothing beyond first lynch, and I think we might want to just leave them to that.
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I agree with orgolove in a public vote. Voting patterns are a great indicator of a person's alignment throughout the game, and is an opportunity to sniff out some red. We should never pass on those sorts of opportunities
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Woo so happy this is getting started now! Unfortunately, it's friday night, so I won't be here. I will be catch up and read through tomorrow.
One thing though:
On December 11 2010 12:20 why wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 12:14 Mr.Zergling wrote:
I think LSB is making himself suspicious by proposing a 1st kill voting style that can be easily manipulated I actually think this debacle has made LSB come out looking pretty town. there's no way he wouldn't have thought of these objections if he was mafia and he would have realized that no sane town would ever agree to them.If we really want to have a private vote and have an auditor, we should have 5 or 6 of them, chosen by RNG, to really ensure there is at least one town among them. Or is that too paranoid?
Pure WIFOM. Of course everything WIFOM is possible, but it's really difficult to read into someone's intentions.
@LSB: While your plan would work quite well if you are town, I feel that is too much of a risk to take if you're scum because we would never be able to hold it against you.
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On December 11 2010 12:17 Beneather wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 12:14 Thegilaboy wrote:On December 11 2010 12:10 LSB wrote:On December 11 2010 12:04 CubEdIn wrote:On December 11 2010 11:58 LSB wrote:On December 11 2010 11:51 CubEdIn wrote:On December 11 2010 11:38 LSB wrote:What will I do as mayor I will hold a secrete ballot for the first elections. And I will post who voted for who afterwards. You know, mafia loves to redirect the first election? This will make it harder for them to. This is important for many reasons. Say we're going to lynch inactives. One is mafia, one is town Mafia: "Yo! Lets bandwagon this guy!" Town: "We'll their both inactive so I guess I'll vote for the town" Annul: "You guys lynched a townie. Sheep =P" Now. Imagine my system LSB: "Person A and Person B are inactive, please send me pm for who you vote for" Town sends PMs. Each person has about a 50% chance of dieng. Mafia doesn't have that much influence. Annul: "This person is mafia! Woot Woot!" In addition, I will not be able to influence the vote because I will post who voted for who afterwards. So if you see something messed up, you can call me out of it. (Of course, this also means that we got a great way to catch mafia). Let me tell you the loophole in your plan there, buddy. Say you're mafia. People choose two people to lynch, townie and mafia. You rig the "anonymous" votes and lynch the townie, even though most people voted for the mafia. You can never be checked/blamed for that since people agreed to secret votes. So yeah, that's not gonna be in the best interest of town IMO. In addition, I will not be able to influence the vote because I will post who voted for who afterwards. So if you see something messed up, you can call me out of it. (Of course, this also means that we got a great way to catch mafia). People will be like, "YOU ARE WRONG!" if I try to manipulate votes. Oh right, I didn't read that part, but it still gives you a certain degree of manipulation by hiding some mafia votes, if you are mafia. Like say the townie is winning by 7 votes, you switch 3 of the mafia votes to hide them, the difference is less significant, town is more confused. Just saying tho, I don't really care since it's just one night. Firstly, vote manipulation is always done by the mafia. In public it can be done easily. All the mafia has to do is make sure they either vote for other people or push a townie bandwagon. In private, they won't be able to predict who is going to be lynched. Secondly, if I'm mafia, you can examine the votes a wee bit more carefully. This way you'll have a better indication of who is mafia. See? Even if I'm mafia it's better for you! Thirdly, I'll accept someone to be the 'auditor' who also recieves votes Would we vote for this auditor too, or would you be picking them? What is this auditor position and what is it worth to us? Whatever it is it should be voted from the town, if the MoM does choose it could be a fellow Mafia and both would have the biggest influence on the town.
How about 2nd place in the mayor elections become with auditor?
Here's how I imagine it would work. I would compare the votes that I get with the Auditor. If there is any discrepancies we can release it to the public/point out why.
It further ensures the integrity of the private voting elections.
Why private vote?
Public vote is easily manipulated by the mafia. You will still be getting the same information, just our Day 1 vote will have a higher chance of hitting a mafia.
+ Show Spoiler +
If the town really really wants it, I can host alternative forms of votes.
Normal Voting
Reasoned Voting- You must give a good reason for your vote for it to be counted.
Runoff Elections- This way we get more information about people's voting patterns
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
While a private vote is nice in theory, if the mafia wants to hide their vote, they're going to be able to do so. It will probably be pretty easy to tell who the popular bandwagons are going to be based on the thread activity so the private vote won't accomplish much. Now if only I remembered who any of these characters were >.<
By the way, any particular reason for no death post? 
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
As of day 1, there are 8 living players loyal to the Death Eaters, the Death Eater kill power is 3, and there are 10 living players with potential alternate victories remaining.
Also this bit of information seems pretty significant. Almost 1/3 of the players have alternate motives that we have to be suspicious of. We have to be aware that a player may act pro-town for much of the game and suddenly betray us to meet their own goals.
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personal preference
gg is implied upon death, no need to say anything more and people always find a way to hint to things while dead.
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On December 11 2010 12:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 12:20 why wrote:On December 11 2010 12:14 Mr.Zergling wrote:
I think LSB is making himself suspicious by proposing a 1st kill voting style that can be easily manipulated I actually think this debacle has made LSB come out looking pretty town. there's no way he wouldn't have thought of these objections if he was mafia and he would have realized that no sane town would ever agree to them.If we really want to have a private vote and have an auditor, we should have 5 or 6 of them, chosen by RNG, to really ensure there is at least one town among them. Or is that too paranoid? Pure WIFOM. Of course everything WIFOM is possible, but it's really difficult to read into someone's intentions.
Good point. Sorry about that.
I like reasoned vote a lot. Of all of them I think that would result in the most discussion and more discussion is always better.
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On December 11 2010 12:57 why wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 12:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 11 2010 12:20 why wrote:On December 11 2010 12:14 Mr.Zergling wrote:
I think LSB is making himself suspicious by proposing a 1st kill voting style that can be easily manipulated I actually think this debacle has made LSB come out looking pretty town. there's no way he wouldn't have thought of these objections if he was mafia and he would have realized that no sane town would ever agree to them.If we really want to have a private vote and have an auditor, we should have 5 or 6 of them, chosen by RNG, to really ensure there is at least one town among them. Or is that too paranoid? Pure WIFOM. Of course everything WIFOM is possible, but it's really difficult to read into someone's intentions. Good point. Sorry about that. I like reasoned vote a lot. Of all of them I think that would result in the most discussion and more discussion is always better.
That's good in theory. But what possible "good reasons" would one have after not a day of playing? It basically promotes "laying low" because the only reason for voting you would be something you said. I don't think it's a very good idea, we should probably pick someone with experience and then make a lynch-vote and that's that.
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On December 11 2010 10:28 annul wrote:
THREE MORE IMPORTANT FACTS:
1. there are some number of smurfs in this game. be aware.
2. pay very close attention to the final line of every cycle change post. helpful hint.
3. a reminder from the OP: if a player has a special ability, it will be somewhat related to their character/entity. in this way, a large number of possible roles can already be guessed at. google is awesomesauce. not all players have special abilities, even ones that may be "obvious" to have power roles.
On December 11 2010 10:02 annul wrote:
Hello! I am NotAnnul, your tour guide throughout wizarding Britain!
Welcome to Hogsmeade, the wizarding city. Stores line the streets, such as Dervish and Banges,
...
As of day 1, there are 8 living players loyal to the Death Eaters, the Death Eater kill power is 3, and there are 10 living players with potential alternate victories remaining.
So, our helpful hint is that there are 10 people out of 31 with alternate win conditions. This is almost 1/3 players with ulterior motives.
I'm glad the mayor doesn't have much power. It's great to have mayoral elections so there's something to talk about day one (other than lynching the inactives lol), but I don't trust anyone putting themselves out there for mayor.
As for LSB's plan--
If LSB is mafia, the plan can be abused by mafia by manipulating votes as normal (same as a public vote, except worse because people won't have to post their reasoning). If the auditor is also red, scum can manipulate the reported result as well.
If LSB is town, but the auditor is red, death eaters can still manipulate the votes as normal.
Only if both LSB and auditor are pro town do we get any benefit from this plan. Actually, the auditor makes the odds worse...
So, interesting idea, LSB, but it relies too much on us having to trust you.
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If we are given the opportunity to chance how the vote is conducted, we should see how we can change it to better the town.
The voting 'flaws' that I'm trying to work out is
1) Ability for mafia to quickly form a bandwagon and lynch someone
2) Ability for mafia to hide their votes on random other people
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Wtf is a "smurf"?
Other than the obvious little blue cartoon people?
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On December 11 2010 13:25 Jackal58 wrote:
Wtf is a "smurf"?
Other than the obvious little blue cartoon people?
Someone playing under a different name. So in this case it is likely a lot of mafia veterans playing under obscure names so that we don't know it's them playing
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No No No LSB's plan is terrible. It allows people to vote without justifying their choice and it easily allows for manipulation of the votes. The auditor only makes things worse because it adds another middle man that the death eaters can infiltrate. That being said I don't think LSB had scummy intentions with his plan. It's just for the sake of openess and clarity we should have open elections. Without people giving reasons for their votes it becomes exponentialy harder to catch mafia because you don't have as much material to analyze.
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Also if any of the veterans would like to help me weed out the smurfs I've started a list of players who I don't think are smurfs because I've played with them before. If you see anyone else on the list of people who have played a game before but didn't make it onto my list please let me know.
LSB, RebirthOfLeGenD, Kenpachi, Ghrur, Aidnai, Coagulation, CubEdIn, Meapak_Ziphh, Youngminii, jcarlsoniv, kitaman27, Deconduo, orgolove, ~OpZ~, LunarDestiny, and Pandain.
I'm pretty sure these people aren't smurfs so now it's up to people who have played more games than me to point out anyone I might have missed.
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I guess that is true maybe making people justify their choice of who they want to lynch is a good idea so we can have true players that are active and actually paying attention. But how about the people in the middle that do not know much and can't make up their mind to choose who to lynch in the first day.
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On December 11 2010 13:25 Jackal58 wrote:
Wtf is a "smurf"?
Other than the obvious little blue cartoon people?
Obvious smurf imo.
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EPT
