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Kingmaker - A New Game - Page 10

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
November 13 2010 00:40 GMT
#181
Sorry for being afk for so long, I am being somewhat busy due to university matters and haven't had time to focus on this game particularly. Just to eliminate unnecessary discussion material and focus town's discussion on scumhunting, I am revealing that I have been selected as the King this round. I'm going to use the voting system to determine the lynch, so I hope to see the opinions you guys currently have. Only ~24hrs left but hopefully I can get something by then.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
orgolove
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Vatican City State1650 Posts
November 13 2010 01:15 GMT
#182
Although you mention the debate about the voting as unnecessary discussion, I think it is integral to consider here, at least for this lynch.

As I mentioned before, Amber[Light] is highly suspicious given he was the first to oppose the vote-lynch system. Any townie who logically considers the circumstances will realize that in fact, having the king follow the vote of the majority is the only way to keep the king under the town's control, and indeed, the only way the town possibly has a chance in this mafia favored setup.

Again, this game's setup is simply the standard F9, except there is no reliable detective and the mafia is given a chance to insta-lynch if the "kingmaker" does not think it through carefully. Considering that F9 is balanced around 2 mafia-1 rolechecker-(1doctor)-6 (5) town, you can see where I'm going.

We can't do anything about not having a 100% detective, but we can minimize the chance of mafia becoming the king and insta-killing a town arbitrarily then getting away with it by saying "oh he just looked scummy."

This is important especially given that we lost our only natural defense against a mafia king. With no hero, a mafia king can kill with impunity.

So what's my point? All these arguments shown above were clearly posted not once, but several times. And yet Amber[Light] has time and time again disagreed with forcing the king to follow a majority rule. Only a mafia (or a really dumb townie) would keep going for something that so completely goes against the town's interests.

##Vote: Amber[Light]
초대 갓, 이영호 | First God, Lee Young Ho
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
November 13 2010 01:16 GMT
#183
I don't think Amber Light is neccesarily wrong. I mean, Dr. H supported Amber Light's idea and he was blue. And even I do somewhat. I agree it should be a guideline, and the king should outline his reasons why in thread he's going to do something, but just because he's saying the king doesn't have to follow the town's majority isn't bad.
orgolove
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Vatican City State1650 Posts
November 13 2010 01:28 GMT
#184
Look, anyone can "outline his reasons" to lynch someone to be believable enough that he wouldn't be considered a red - at worst, he'd be considered dumb for suspecting him. Letting a king lynch whoever he wants without any input from the town is just dumb. A quote from before:

I could only imagine an assassin King coming up with some BS as to why candidate X should be lynched, and the town just idly agrees while candidate X is screaming at the other players that they aren't being reasonable.


How many town did we start with? 7. How many scum? 2. That's the only defense we have against the mafia. They know it too, and that's why if you're a mafia, you'd be clearly hoping for the king to be allowed to kill whoever he wants instead of listening to the masses. Plus, you'd be giving yourselves an opening to escape scrutiny even if a red becomes the king, given how easy it would be to say "oh damn, I made a mistake."

Thus, only a mafia would keep pushing to establish something that is so anti-town.
초대 갓, 이영호 | First God, Lee Young Ho
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
November 13 2010 03:50 GMT
#185
I dare you to try this again on Day 3 since there's no logical reason to kill me. I'm waiting
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
November 13 2010 13:30 GMT
#186
All right. Orgolove, do you have anything else against Amber[LighT] besides that he voted for the voting system?

Because in a nutshell that's all you said.

Speaking of while. Don't let Brownbear be unnoticed. He have been dodging all day and hasn't be responding or contributing at all
##VOTE: Brownbear
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
November 13 2010 17:12 GMT
#187
I went through all the posts carefully, because town really really really doesn't want to lose another blue tonight.

Baiscally, everyone has made a decent or half-decent point, but to me there's not enough information to actually VOTE for anyone.
My instincts still say that we should target inactives. Not for lynching per se, but in order to get them to talk. It's too easy for the reds to just stay low and watch us slaughter each other.
Also, there are two mafia in this game. I have yet to see two opinions that were in alignment with one another, so I really doubt that we're gonna hit a red so far, unless one mafia is active and the other one passive (which, I must say, is not a bad plan I guess).

I'll keep thinking about this, but even though I suspect people, I don't suspect anyone enough in order to send them to be lynched. I'll try to take a step back and look at the whole picture again, when I come back in a few hours, and cast my vote then.

I must say I'm not happy with the reasoning so far. There are some valid points, as I said, but nothing that's even 75% sure to get us a red lynch.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
BrownBear
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6894 Posts
November 13 2010 19:11 GMT
#188
On November 13 2010 22:30 LSB wrote:
All right. Orgolove, do you have anything else against Amber[LighT] besides that he voted for the voting system?

Because in a nutshell that's all you said.

Speaking of while. Don't let Brownbear be unnoticed. He have been dodging all day and hasn't be responding or contributing at all
##VOTE: Brownbear


Apologies, I've been busy as fuck. I'll be writing up a defense post later.
SUNSFANNED
BrownBear
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6894 Posts
November 13 2010 21:24 GMT
#189
On November 12 2010 23:35 LSB wrote:
FOS: Brownbear
GRRR MAFIA BLAH BLAH GRRR

SUNSFANNED
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
November 13 2010 21:28 GMT
#190
On November 14 2010 06:24 BrownBear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2010 23:35 LSB wrote:
FOS: Brownbear
GRRR MAFIA BLAH BLAH GRRR



*cries*
One day, I shall be as persuasive as you one day.
One day....
BrownBear
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6894 Posts
November 13 2010 21:34 GMT
#191
woops, did not mean to hit post there. my bad. Let me flesh out my point...

So far, I don't see a logical reason to kill Amber. However, there's some fun little gems...

On November 12 2010 22:55 Amber[LighT] wrote:
BLAH BLAH ORGOLOVE BLAH BLAH

I'd like to hear more from BrownBear & Hesmyrr since they're playing on the fairly quiet side.


And then 2 posts later...

On November 12 2010 23:35 LSB wrote:
FOS: Brownbear
GRRR MAFIA BLAH BLAH GRRR


And currently, LSB has completely ignored, to the point where he hasn't even acknowledged, the bandwagon forming on Amber so that he can continue to dump suspicion on me. There are connections, they're actually pretty obvious.

Note, LSB, I never actually said you were red. I said you have given me a bad vibe all game. It's hard to throw up hard analysis based on gut feelings, because falling into that trap is a bad way to play the game.

A couple of your posts...

On November 09 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2010 12:09 orgolove wrote:
Another thing to note is the setup. As Ace did not reveal the number of each roles, we have to figure it out ourselves. Compared to the standard setups, there's 2 disadvantages to the town:

1. a red could randomly be chosen as the mayor, leading to an auto -1 town. Actually, eventually one of the reds WILL be chosen as a mayor since the kingmaker is forced to switch his choice every day to a different player.

That's why you look to my idea about the king following the town's decision. That way even if an assassin is chosen as king, nothing will happen. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304&currentpage=2#27

Show nested quote +
2. there is no reliable detective. This is huge.

The biggest problem with no detective is that there is no easy way to check the alignment of inactives. This is why on the first day we should lynch an inactive. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304&currentpage=2#30


This is not a very good argument for lynching an inactive. This is a game of 9 people, where we really cannot afford to slip up much at all, so under no circumstances should we be just "lynching an inactive because we have nothing better to do" we should be finding something better to do. Let's be honest, it's a pretty poor argument, but you say it in such certain terms. Generally, the people I've seen going "This is what we should do" about stupid shit are more likely than not to be mafia trying to mislead town.

So, I never FoS'd you or said "HEY GUYS LSB IS RED" I just said you were giving me a bad feeling. And now you're connected (kinda tenuously, but still) to Amber, who's been coming under some hard suspicion.

It doesn't really add up to me.
SUNSFANNED
BrownBear
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6894 Posts
November 13 2010 21:35 GMT
#192
On November 14 2010 06:28 Pandain wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2010 06:24 BrownBear wrote:
On November 12 2010 23:35 LSB wrote:
FOS: Brownbear
GRRR MAFIA BLAH BLAH GRRR



*cries*
One day, I shall be as persuasive as you one day.
One day....


Yeeahhh, kinda hit Post instead of preview. I'm such a fool :/
SUNSFANNED
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
November 13 2010 23:40 GMT
#193
Amber[Light]
orgolove

LSB
BrownBear

lot more people need to vote since the point of voting system is to overwhelm with numbers, if three more people are not going to join in with the vote I am going to decide between the players who have vote on them. I am sure you guys don't want that so chop chop. I'll start scouring the thread now to place my vote too (which will count as normal 1 vote if the condition I just specified is met).
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
November 13 2010 23:42 GMT
#194
Also I am guessing that deadline is November 12 2010 17:32 TL time (9 hours from now) which is 48 hrs after like stated in OP right? The deadline night 1 post is kinda confusing (Pandain? thought the deadline was yesterday for god's sake).

Also re-emphasizing that people need to vote with their reasonings or else.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
November 13 2010 23:44 GMT
#195
November 14*
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
BrownBear
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6894 Posts
November 13 2010 23:45 GMT
#196
I'll vote Amber, for now. I'm mostly curious to see if the possible connection between Amber and LSB is actually a connection as opposed to my paranoia.

So... yeah.

Vote: Amber
SUNSFANNED
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
November 13 2010 23:49 GMT
#197
Yeah, just noticed I messed up my vote count since LSB voted you not you voted LSB.
Amber[Light] (2)
orgolove
BrownBear

BrownBear (1)
LSB

This will not be insta-majority lynch but deadline (1hr~30min before day ends) lynch.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
November 13 2010 23:54 GMT
#198
On November 14 2010 08:45 BrownBear wrote:
I'll vote Amber, for now. I'm mostly curious to see if the possible connection between Amber and LSB is actually a connection as opposed to my paranoia.

So... yeah.

Vote: Amber


There is no connection. Just like how there was none between DrH and me. It will be a wasted lynch.

#vote: BrownBear
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
November 14 2010 00:00 GMT
#199
On November 13 2010 10:16 Pandain wrote:
I don't think Amber Light is neccesarily wrong. I mean, Dr. H supported Amber Light's idea and he was blue. And even I do somewhat. I agree it should be a guideline, and the king should outline his reasons why in thread he's going to do something, but just because he's saying the king doesn't have to follow the town's majority isn't bad.


Basically this. Because he supported this isn't nearly a good enough reason to lynch someone.

##Vote Brownbear
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
November 14 2010 00:32 GMT
#200
On November 14 2010 06:34 BrownBear wrote:
woops, did not mean to hit post there. my bad. Let me flesh out my point...

So far, I don't see a logical reason to kill Amber. However, there's some fun little gems...

Show nested quote +
On November 12 2010 22:55 Amber[LighT] wrote:
BLAH BLAH ORGOLOVE BLAH BLAH

I'd like to hear more from BrownBear & Hesmyrr since they're playing on the fairly quiet side.


And then 2 posts later...

Show nested quote +
On November 12 2010 23:35 LSB wrote:
FOS: Brownbear
GRRR MAFIA BLAH BLAH GRRR


And currently, LSB has completely ignored, to the point where he hasn't even acknowledged, the bandwagon forming on Amber so that he can continue to dump suspicion on me. There are connections, they're actually pretty obvious.

Note, LSB, I never actually said you were red. I said you have given me a bad vibe all game. It's hard to throw up hard analysis based on gut feelings, because falling into that trap is a bad way to play the game.

A couple of your posts...

Show nested quote +
On November 09 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:
On November 09 2010 12:09 orgolove wrote:
Another thing to note is the setup. As Ace did not reveal the number of each roles, we have to figure it out ourselves. Compared to the standard setups, there's 2 disadvantages to the town:

1. a red could randomly be chosen as the mayor, leading to an auto -1 town. Actually, eventually one of the reds WILL be chosen as a mayor since the kingmaker is forced to switch his choice every day to a different player.

That's why you look to my idea about the king following the town's decision. That way even if an assassin is chosen as king, nothing will happen. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304&currentpage=2#27

2. there is no reliable detective. This is huge.

The biggest problem with no detective is that there is no easy way to check the alignment of inactives. This is why on the first day we should lynch an inactive. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167304&currentpage=2#30


This is not a very good argument for lynching an inactive. This is a game of 9 people, where we really cannot afford to slip up much at all, so under no circumstances should we be just "lynching an inactive because we have nothing better to do" we should be finding something better to do. Let's be honest, it's a pretty poor argument, but you say it in such certain terms. Generally, the people I've seen going "This is what we should do" about stupid shit are more likely than not to be mafia trying to mislead town.

So, I never FoS'd you or said "HEY GUYS LSB IS RED" I just said you were giving me a bad feeling. And now you're connected (kinda tenuously, but still) to Amber, who's been coming under some hard suspicion.

It doesn't really add up to me.

In case you haven't noticed, my case against you Brownbear began when I was wondering why you suspected me. It didn't just began because Amber[Light] asked me to nicely.

Also, Brownbear did not directly address points 2 and 3. (He just has an excuse for point number one, saying that he was inactive). Instead he just resorted to attacking me. However, his argument is increadibly flawed.

Secondly, it would be one thing to suggest lynching an inactive on the first day, but another thing to push for lynching an inactive.

Brownbear completely ignored this post.
On November 10 2010 02:52 LSB wrote:
As for lynching inactives, Coagulation is the only 'inactive' left, and based on his recent play, he's not the type to suddenly afk on the town.

Show nested quote +
On November 09 2010 13:30 Coagulation wrote:
so whos king?

oh and bite me pandain.

Show nested quote +
On November 09 2010 16:34 Coagulation wrote:
And no, I do not agree with the King not revealing himself once chosen. We need to find out what the king is thinking. We have a different king each day, and the game setup does not have any day kills. So there is absolutely no disadvantage to the king being revealed to the towns, and it will only give the Assassins, with their ability to PM, an even better chance to plot behind their backs. Remember - there are -no- PMs for townies!


the only ones that really "need to find out what the king is thinking" are the assassins.


Coagulation, could you please be a bit more active and join the discussion?

Thanks

Anyways, we should now move discuss whether or not we should use Merlin
I am against using Merlin, as it is a waste of a lynch. Remember, lylo is not delayed when we use Merlin.

I said that there we no inactive left. And indeed the reason why I supported the Coag lynch was not because of his inactivity (He was quiet active under pressure). But because his answers to my questions were not satisfactory
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
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