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On July 25 2010 01:13 lakrismamma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 00:41 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
As BC pointed out, if the GF decided to appear as DT he could have a representative (a red) act as his contact for this. However, the chances of GF picking DT in my experience are pretty low (never seen it happen) and mafia probably played it safe with vet or townie. But it's still POSSIBLE and so it must be weighed into consideration.
Makes no sense then we should have 2 persons claiming. Since citi.zen would be confirmed at this point he can print the 2 personse in the thread and we have a 1v1. This is good for town. Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 00:41 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
The other thing is, how can you ask the DT to claim if more than 1 representative comes forward? The way the plan is worded, you yourself do not know the names of the DT's and are instead passing the names of the representatives, or am i misreading?
The point about getting 2 persons to claim is that the mafia have to sacrifice 2 persons to be able to infiltrate and even then we have a situation where 4 people are suspects and 2 of them is mafia this is also good for town. If citi.zen in confirmed then I see no problem with this.
read my long post
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On July 25 2010 01:20 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
Personally, I'm not sure which method of contact is superior for the plan (representative to citi or actual DT to citi). Both have pros and cons here, can anyone else shed some light?
Heres why I'm really scared. If a mafia fake claims to a "trusted" source who he supposedly checked. Then that represenitive might be innocent but the mafia isn't. That's what I'm scared of.
Also, I think it would still be okay because isn't citizen confirmed basically? So we can trust him. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a little groggy.
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On July 25 2010 01:20 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 01:02 citi.zen wrote:On July 25 2010 00:26 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On July 24 2010 21:58 citi.zen wrote:On July 24 2010 17:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 24 2010 17:20 youngminii wrote:
What information? I'm running under the assumption no 'important' information will be passed along. I hope they're smart enough not to tell each other what blue roles they've found. dude your trusting someone with a game breaking plan and assuming someone isn't going to pass information of whos been cleared (even if all you say is cleared) down a line. People screw up in pms all the time. the longer a mafia sits in with them with you the higher chance you have to screw up. BC is telling us here that the DTs should not coordinate with each other because there is a chance of a slip-up. Again, he is acting as red as can be, using his credibility to try to spread misinformation. Vote for him in today's lynch and don't tell me the Dt names until you see BC flip GF. Easy win after that. no, he actually has a really good point - that people screw up all the time. i can't tell you how many games i've been in where the dt's manage to start a blue circle, include one too any idiots and get the role info leaked to the mafia = dead blues; or inadvertently let the mafia directly into the PM circle = dead blues your plan is solid but not error proof nor fool proof, and we can't pretend like it is the reason to be careful is that this is basically THE GAME right here. if town screws up they lose it's over, if it works then town is sitting pretty OK - let's encourage discussion. DTs talking to each other: good or bad in your view? lol no matter what role i am i would answer this question the same way, so essentially it is a nonquestion. try again! (the answer is that it is good) Basically my worry is that you need a way to deal with false claims. The mafia are at an advantage right now in terms of kills and I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to send in one of their players as a false DT representative in order to sacrifice himself, disrupt your plan, and buy them another day Situation: two people PM you claiming to be representatives of a Detective (they don't tell you his name). Now, since you know the name of the other DT or are at least in contact with him indirectly, we know one of these guys is a liar. How do you deal with this? We would have to publicly expose the names of the representatives, in order to spend a day role checking or lynching (double lynch?), which costs the town another 2 kills before the plan goes into effect. Is there another, cleaner, plan? Now one possible way to avoid this situation entirely is to have the remaining DT contact you himself, as you are confirmed town (unless there is a real vig/hatter out there and he is really really stupid or really really inactive). However, this still opens you up to false claims from the mafia, and in this case "your" DT can check one of the claimants (don't forget about the godfather!), thereby determining the innocence of the other. Still, you lose a night before getting the real DTs in touch with each other. And then, the possibilities of what happen during the night can destroy the plan entirely. The suicide bomber comes to mind. On the whole, this is a very powerful plan which is why i would expect mafia to interfere given that they haven't lost a member yet. Since the idea of the plan has already been set in motion it seems to me that the town has little choice but to participate - consider a scenario where the actual remaining DT is too nervous to contact citizen, and then citizen gets contacted my a mafia "detective." Since only 1 claim came to citizen, can he assume the innocence of this claimant? This scenario alone shows why we basically have no choice but to follow through with the plan now, and that the remaining DT needs to follow the plan and find a way to contact citizen. Personally, I'm not sure which method of contact is superior for the plan (representative to citi or actual DT to citi). Both have pros and cons here, can anyone else shed some light?
Two things: if you trust me, you trust me DT. I got checked night 1 and personally chose night 2's check target. No way for the two of them to "play me". Second, multiple claims are fine. The mafia will give up 2 people. At night we investigate one of the competing groups. We get two reds either way.
Clear?
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On July 25 2010 01:22 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
Let me iterate what I think is the most important thought in my post: if the mafia send in a false claimer to sac himself and delay the plan, the outcomes of night kills can potentially stop the plan from happening at all
They might not even need to sac someone. The SB could just blow the plan to shreds by himself.
Well, ok, I guess they technically do need to sac someone. You get the idea.
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chaoser why do all your posts look like quotes?
just to avoid modkill threats, ill do this for now.
##vote: abstain
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On July 25 2010 01:41 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 01:20 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On July 25 2010 01:02 citi.zen wrote:On July 25 2010 00:26 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:On July 24 2010 21:58 citi.zen wrote:On July 24 2010 17:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 24 2010 17:20 youngminii wrote:
What information? I'm running under the assumption no 'important' information will be passed along. I hope they're smart enough not to tell each other what blue roles they've found. dude your trusting someone with a game breaking plan and assuming someone isn't going to pass information of whos been cleared (even if all you say is cleared) down a line. People screw up in pms all the time. the longer a mafia sits in with them with you the higher chance you have to screw up. BC is telling us here that the DTs should not coordinate with each other because there is a chance of a slip-up. Again, he is acting as red as can be, using his credibility to try to spread misinformation. Vote for him in today's lynch and don't tell me the Dt names until you see BC flip GF. Easy win after that. no, he actually has a really good point - that people screw up all the time. i can't tell you how many games i've been in where the dt's manage to start a blue circle, include one too any idiots and get the role info leaked to the mafia = dead blues; or inadvertently let the mafia directly into the PM circle = dead blues your plan is solid but not error proof nor fool proof, and we can't pretend like it is the reason to be careful is that this is basically THE GAME right here. if town screws up they lose it's over, if it works then town is sitting pretty OK - let's encourage discussion. DTs talking to each other: good or bad in your view? lol no matter what role i am i would answer this question the same way, so essentially it is a nonquestion. try again! (the answer is that it is good) Basically my worry is that you need a way to deal with false claims. The mafia are at an advantage right now in terms of kills and I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to send in one of their players as a false DT representative in order to sacrifice himself, disrupt your plan, and buy them another day Situation: two people PM you claiming to be representatives of a Detective (they don't tell you his name). Now, since you know the name of the other DT or are at least in contact with him indirectly, we know one of these guys is a liar. How do you deal with this? We would have to publicly expose the names of the representatives, in order to spend a day role checking or lynching (double lynch?), which costs the town another 2 kills before the plan goes into effect. Is there another, cleaner, plan? Now one possible way to avoid this situation entirely is to have the remaining DT contact you himself, as you are confirmed town (unless there is a real vig/hatter out there and he is really really stupid or really really inactive). However, this still opens you up to false claims from the mafia, and in this case "your" DT can check one of the claimants (don't forget about the godfather!), thereby determining the innocence of the other. Still, you lose a night before getting the real DTs in touch with each other. And then, the possibilities of what happen during the night can destroy the plan entirely. The suicide bomber comes to mind. On the whole, this is a very powerful plan which is why i would expect mafia to interfere given that they haven't lost a member yet. Since the idea of the plan has already been set in motion it seems to me that the town has little choice but to participate - consider a scenario where the actual remaining DT is too nervous to contact citizen, and then citizen gets contacted my a mafia "detective." Since only 1 claim came to citizen, can he assume the innocence of this claimant? This scenario alone shows why we basically have no choice but to follow through with the plan now, and that the remaining DT needs to follow the plan and find a way to contact citizen. Personally, I'm not sure which method of contact is superior for the plan (representative to citi or actual DT to citi). Both have pros and cons here, can anyone else shed some light? Two things: if you trust me, you trust me DT. I got checked night 1 and personally chose night 2's check target. No way for the two of them to "play me". Second, multiple claims are fine. The mafia will give up 2 people. At night we investigate one of the competing groups. We get two reds either way. Clear?
At night the mafia can shit on you whenever they want.
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On July 25 2010 02:12 Subversion wrote:
chaoser why do all your posts look like quotes?
just to avoid modkill threats, ill do this for now.
##vote: abstain
Really? Post some for me please. I'm sure I can find more posts by me that aren't "quotes".
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On July 25 2010 02:10 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 01:22 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
Let me iterate what I think is the most important thought in my post: if the mafia send in a false claimer to sac himself and delay the plan, the outcomes of night kills can potentially stop the plan from happening at all They might not even need to sac someone. The SB could just blow the plan to shreds by himself. Well, ok, I guess they technically do need to sac someone. You get the idea.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
The thing is it won't necessarily stop the plan even if they do use the bomber. All false claims must be cleared up and all legit info must be exchanged before the time limit of night is up if we want the plan to go through without risk of derailment.
There's just not a lot of room for error.
If you'll notice, i am advocating the plan (we don't have a lot of a choice i don't think...), but there needs to be some very careful ground rules set here so that the shit doesn't hit the fan
Rule #79b of Mafia: never ever assume the mafia are idiots.
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On July 25 2010 02:16 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 02:12 Subversion wrote:
chaoser why do all your posts look like quotes?
just to avoid modkill threats, ill do this for now.
##vote: abstain Really? Post some for me please. I'm sure I can find more posts by me that aren't "quotes".
This is a quote.
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On July 25 2010 02:19 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 02:16 chaoser wrote:On July 25 2010 02:12 Subversion wrote:
chaoser why do all your posts look like quotes?
just to avoid modkill threats, ill do this for now.
##vote: abstain Really? Post some for me please. I'm sure I can find more posts by me that aren't "quotes". This is a quote.
-_-;; wait lol, so by quote you mean any post that has a quote in it even if I'm adding new information? that's like everyone...
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It's ok to quote and build off the quote with a lot of new content. It's not okay to quote and post 2 or 3 lines not really adding much. I think what d3 is saying is that most of your posts are examples of the latter type of posting.
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If it is one or two lines, I'm answering a simple question people have about the game, or I'm asking for clarification of what someone said. Else, I've been either making lists of voting trends, I made a case against Subversion, and I was deeply involved in figuring out the BC/Tricode situation. Look two/three posts back from here and you'll see I wrote to citi.zen about how we should handle the situation calmly instead of jumping at each others throats. I also made a diagram =p.
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On July 25 2010 02:23 BrownBear wrote:
It's ok to quote and build off the quote with a lot of new content. It's not okay to quote and post 2 or 3 lines not really adding much. I think what d3 is saying is that most of your posts are examples of the latter type of posting.
This is a derail.
Also please don't presume to speak for me.
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Well with 2 / 2 KP roles have claimed (Tricode Vigilante and Citi.zen Mad Hatter), and with no counter claims up to this point, it seems likely that they're both innocent. The only scenario I can imagine where even one of these players isn't innocent is if:
1. Mafia knew the identify of the other KP role (else this player could blow the whistle at any time).
2. Knew that the other KP role would be inactive today (maybe they posted something to this effect).
As far as I can tell, the only way 1. could be accomplished is if they had already infiltrated a DT circle. This then requires
3. Knew that the DT would be inactive today (as the DT would also know 1.)
I searched and it seems Misder is the only one that hasn't posted since the Tricode / Citi.zen claiming party and has hinted he would probably be inactive this go-around. I think everyone else has at least posted, though a few only dropped in some one liners just saying they were either active or trying to catch up and didn't reference Tricode / Citi.zen directly, so it could be they missed it.
Am I missing anything, or barring this outlandish scenario are Tricode and Citi.zen clean?
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On July 25 2010 03:34 SiNiquity wrote:
Well with 2 / 2 KP roles have claimed (Tricode Vigilante and Citi.zen Mad Hatter), and with no counter claims up to this point, it seems likely that they're both innocent. The only scenario I can imagine where even one of these players isn't innocent is if:
1. Mafia knew the identify of the other KP role (else this player could blow the whistle at any time).
2. Knew that the other KP role would be inactive today (maybe they posted something to this effect).
As far as I can tell, the only way 1. could be accomplished is if they had already infiltrated a DT circle. This then requires
3. Knew that the DT would be inactive today (as the DT would also know 1.)
I searched and it seems Misder is the only one that hasn't posted since the Tricode / Citi.zen claiming party and has hinted he would probably be inactive this go-around. I think everyone else has at least posted, though a few only dropped in some one liners just saying they were either active or trying to catch up and didn't reference Tricode / Citi.zen directly, so it could be they missed it.
Am I missing anything, or barring this outlandish scenario are Tricode and Citi.zen clean?
Yeah, pretty sure. I had been thinking about this for a while now(past 20 minutes) and I was thinking up a couple of ideas. Would it be good for everyone just to pm roleclaim to either Tricode/Citizen.
I mean, they're both clean. This could really really help us. And in the chance that a mafia will counter claim to be a kp town, than we have 3 suspects to deal with.
DONT ROLECLAIM YET, NEED FEEBACK
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IMO citizen is 100% confirmed, because if he is scum, he is relying on the other blue KP role being inactive, and if they havent claimed yet, then any others might as well be red. If I was the Blue KP, then citizens 'scum' plan would have gone to complete shit, and we would trade a BlueKP for scum, maybe even a GF. The DT part of his plan doesnt matter in regards to his innocence. The fact that BC is going into detail about the DT part of this confuses me, since the only thing that matters is the other KP role (I think we are relatively assured that tricode is not in cahoots with citizen, as then both KP roles would come forward, and I doubt tricode is red and citizen isnt)
So BC, if you're town, you are relying on the other blue coming forward, you would have o be a DT to base all your life around a KPBlue who was supposed to come forward for you, but you just couldnt wait? Is your checked KPBlue afk? Or did you not tell him to come out yet, because you want to back your fellow reds claim to a KPBlue as a DT or something. And the only way that could be denied is if citizen knows both DTs.
That makes me think you are scum, very heavily so, since you couldnt make your 'KPBlue' come forward yet, and you are just prepping the scene for your scum buddy to make the claim i guess? Or are you just being difficult for no reason at all when citizen is offering a plan to make both DTs work together, or do you honestly think that both citizen is a stupid red and our other BlueKP is an ignorant retard who cant counter claim properly. Its been roughly a day, and mafia arent that lucky, and i dont see how they would give it a shot after having a nice lead already.
##Unvote tree.hugger
##Vote BloodyC0bbler
I think earlier I unvoted southlight, when I meant southrawrea, my bad.
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On July 25 2010 03:37 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 03:34 SiNiquity wrote:
Well with 2 / 2 KP roles have claimed (Tricode Vigilante and Citi.zen Mad Hatter), and with no counter claims up to this point, it seems likely that they're both innocent. The only scenario I can imagine where even one of these players isn't innocent is if:
1. Mafia knew the identify of the other KP role (else this player could blow the whistle at any time).
2. Knew that the other KP role would be inactive today (maybe they posted something to this effect).
As far as I can tell, the only way 1. could be accomplished is if they had already infiltrated a DT circle. This then requires
3. Knew that the DT would be inactive today (as the DT would also know 1.)
I searched and it seems Misder is the only one that hasn't posted since the Tricode / Citi.zen claiming party and has hinted he would probably be inactive this go-around. I think everyone else has at least posted, though a few only dropped in some one liners just saying they were either active or trying to catch up and didn't reference Tricode / Citi.zen directly, so it could be they missed it.
Am I missing anything, or barring this outlandish scenario are Tricode and Citi.zen clean? Yeah, pretty sure. I had been thinking about this for a while now(past 20 minutes) and I was thinking up a couple of ideas. Would it be good for everyone just to pm roleclaim to either Tricode/Citizen. I mean, they're both clean. This could really really help us. And in the chance that a mafia will counter claim to be a kp town, than we have 3 suspects to deal with. DONT ROLECLAIM YET, NEED FEEBACK
Sorry I'm back, I slept in today. This has caught my eye though because I have no choice but to counter claim Citi.zen here as if I claim later, I will become less and less believable which is not really good to the town assuming that one of us is the mafia which is most likely. Again, sorry for not being on early enough to respond to his claim. It should be fine as long as the DTs have not yet claimed to Citi.zen.
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On July 25 2010 03:34 SiNiquity wrote:
Well with 2 / 2 KP roles have claimed (Tricode Vigilante and Citi.zen Mad Hatter), and with no counter claims up to this point, it seems likely that they're both innocent. The only scenario I can imagine where even one of these players isn't innocent is if:
1. Mafia knew the identify of the other KP role (else this player could blow the whistle at any time).
2. Knew that the other KP role would be inactive today (maybe they posted something to this effect).
As far as I can tell, the only way 1. could be accomplished is if they had already infiltrated a DT circle. This then requires
3. Knew that the DT would be inactive today (as the DT would also know 1.)
I searched and it seems Misder is the only one that hasn't posted since the Tricode / Citi.zen claiming party and has hinted he would probably be inactive this go-around. I think everyone else has at least posted, though a few only dropped in some one liners just saying they were either active or trying to catch up and didn't reference Tricode / Citi.zen directly, so it could be they missed it.
Am I missing anything, or barring this outlandish scenario are Tricode and Citi.zen clean?
Pretty good points: the mafia would need to know that the DT AND other KP role would be AFK today, yet only 1 person has failed to post.
So yes, me and Tricode are confirmed.
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So far I've been trying to slip under the radar so I don't get lynched early on or killed at night. I've actually only placed one bomb thus far as I was a little hesitant to kill place two people at risk even if I suspect them. My only one at the moment is on chaoser but that was placed yesterday after seeing that he didn't get lynched. I decided to abstain from placing a second bomb because of the first vote placed on me by Bumat... I felt threatened. :/
## Vote Citizen for now
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EPT
