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Greetings everyone! At least this one didn't start on the holiday.
So day 1 lynch. We're in the random voting stage I guess. I don't know most of you guys yet - just what the rumor mill churns up. I'm not about to read 20 games to try to get backstory. I have read a couple though just to get my feet wet.
First, just a note about activity. It's probably fair to expect every individual player to have some threshold of posting else the team should be put under scrutiny for inactivity. If we see particular players going inactive, we should not allow it and hold the team accountable. If one player is quiet and the other player just kind of scrapes by, it's an easy way for mafia to try to duck under the radar or otherwise not provide much info for us to get reads on.
And now for some ideas on where to throw our day 1 lynch:
Seems a bad idea to lynch Radfield since he gets killed night 1 or lynched day 2 (since obv mafia). Though I wouldn't autolynch Radfield on day 2 either because I think Radfield makes an excellent medic target. Lets let the mafia play the guessing game with this one as to whether we have a medic and whether that medic will choose to protect this target.
Since Chezinu seems to love the PM game, he may be easier to read when forced to play an entirely in thread game. So I'd be leaning against lynching him.
I could be swayed to lynch LaXer since as a townie he did hurt the town pretty badly by roleclaiming as a bodyguard. Not much of a reason, but it's the best I've got on a clean slate board. If he's town he can't PM anyone anyhow and Bum would be able to help ensure that if they are medic or DT that they use it effectively. I guess this will be ok.
I know Ace always gets the detective role. Unless I missed it somewhere, roles are not necessarily random (please correct this point if it was stated they would be random somewhere). They may have been assigned 'for entertainment value'. Not something I'd put too much stock into, but I know I'd find it amusing if Ace were DT after posting in my (first) game that he hates DT. So I'm inclined to not pick him for day 1 either.
I'd be against lynching L because the one game I read with him in it where he was a godfather calling for people to roleclaim I thought it was super obvious that he was mafia. Not to say that he's always super obvious about being mafia, but I definitely would rather be trying to read someone that I thought couldn't hide it as well than someone random.
We probably shouldn't lynch teams 7. 8, or 9 on day 1 (unless they are inactive) since we can hold them to a higher threshold of activity. With three players on each team, we should expect them to produce more posts. Since these three teams will be forced to produce more posts, it'll be easier to get mafia reads on them.
I'd like to target a team with an inactive player (surely no entire team will be inactive, right?). If we have every player active, then I guess LaXer would be my vote, but I don't think this will happen. We need to ensure that we don't let a mafia team skate by with an inactive player keeping their team's post count down.
So lets start hearing what people have to say!
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The reason I give a better pass to the 3 player teams is because if any single player goes inactive, I want to hunt down that team for it. This goes for the tri teams as well - so in a way they are more vulnerable to this kind of scrutiny. If everyone is active, these tri teams will be putting more posts out, so they'll be easier to read.
So my initial pass on them is because they'll either get hunted for inactivity or they'll be churning up more material to read. I think they're in a worse position from the outset, so I'm kind of trying to balance that in my thoughts.
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On June 22 2010 17:57 johnnyspazz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Di-dah-di-dit Dah-dah-dah Dah-dah-dah Dah-di-dah Dah-dah-di-di-dah-dah, Dah-di-dit Di-dit Di-di-di-dah Di-dit Dah-dit Dit Dah-di-dah, Di-dit Di-di-dit, Dah-dah Di-dah Di-di-dah-dit Di-dit Di-dah, Dah-di-di-dit Dit Dah-di-dah-dit Di-dah Di-di-dah Di-di-dit Dit, Di-di-di-dit Dit, Di-dah-dah-dit Dah-dah-dah Di-di-dit Dah Dit Dah-di-dit, Di-dah Di-di-dah-dit Dah Dit Di-dah-dit, Dah-di-dah-dah Dah-dah-dah Di-di-dah, Dah-di-dah-dit Di-di-di-dit Dit Dah-dah-di-dit Di-dit Dah-dit Di-di-dah Show nested quote +On June 22 2010 14:24 YellowInk posted: First, just a note about activity. It's probably fair to expect every individual player to have some threshold of posting else the team should be put under scrutiny for inactivity. If we see particular players going inactive, we should not allow it and hold the team accountable. If one player is quiet and the other player just kind of scrapes by, it's an easy way for mafia to try to duck under the radar or otherwise not provide much info for us to get reads on. why should players be punished for having terrible teammates? i think it all depends on the types of posts the inactive player teammate makes. if you have a guy who's very inactive/useless and his teammate isn't, we wouldn't want to lose the good player just because his teammate sucks. i dont really understand how mafia can "duck under the radar" if one guy is active and the other isn't. can you elaborate on this? It's already been answered by another player sufficiently, but I think there's something else worth considering in a team game.
If you get a read on one player as mafia and their teammate as town, do you accuse them? Would you hang them for it? My answer to this question would be 'yes'. Remember that if we all appear to be town, the mafia wins most games, so the generic strategy for mafia is to appear to be town - preferably without helping them too much. If you get a read on someone as mafia you need to put it to good use.
Now extrapolate to a semi or even fully active team member and an inactive teammate. We have an inactive 'read' on one player and a whatever (lets assume town for sake of argument) read on the active player. Is this someone to consider hanging? I again say 'yes'. Of course we go after the red as a priority, so like in any other game, targeting an inactive is something you do when you don't feel sufficiently confident about a read on anyone else.
Now if the one person is posting so much that the activity basically makes up for the other player being inactive, I'd give them consideration for a pass on this. The point is that we need every player to be active so that we have as many different reads on as many different teams as possible allowing us to root out the red. Allowing one player to be inactive (or even just semi-inactive / laying low) could allow their potentially skilled mafia teammate to be more elaborate in their lies or deception without worry of cross team tripups. This is why I think a hard stance against inactivity is appropriate even here in this team game.
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On June 23 2010 02:13 Bill Murray wrote: since i view you as red, we should lynch your entire team? Yes.
if I feel like you are posting like you did when you were a yellow turban, i shouldn't sit idly while you try to ruin my game? You’re going to need to stop muddying the waters with your code if you want me to reply to you. Why are you calling me an article of clothing? What is a yellow turban supposed to mean?
such wise words from someone who is likely to be scum. perhaps you are doing the exact thing you're saying scum will do: Show nested quote +so the generic strategy for mafia is to appear to be town - preferably without helping them too much. ? I think my posts are doing a decent job of drawing out scummy accusations. People are generating suspicion based on my words.
I am going to assume we are out of the RVS, and use this hypocrisy as the basis for my voting you. You are doing exactly what you'd advocate red to do - appearing town without helping all that much. Instead of discussing what someone would do... why are you even thinking of that, by the way?... you should be scumhunting but are not. Even L's obvious OMGUS is a lot less suspicious to me than this.
At this point, I don’t actually believe you have a red read on me. I don’t know if that means you’re red yourself or just trying to draw something out of me that might actually give you a red read.
That being said, the coded messages are obnoxious. Knock it off. I want to be able to go back and reread the thread without having memorized or kept notes or retranslate every single code that you and your buddy decide to post. All they do is muddy the water – something scummy players love to do when they can make it appear innocuous.
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On June 23 2010 02:37 bumatlarge wrote:Flamewheel can put a the town list in the OP of the vote thread? it would make life easier for me, and I dont want to get in trouble. Sorry yellow but your looking pretty viable for a first lynch as of now... and no "I know im not mafia therefore I am not mafia" logic please lol Still not going to bandwagon just yet from a team who has that cheezenoodle guy on it This isn't a noob game. I'm not about to run to the mountaintops screaming "I'm town I'm town!" and expect it to hold any weight. Also, the game isn't large enough to even consider this kind of strategy even if it were a noob game.
It's very kind of you to not bandwagon me just yet. It does make you sound a little less bloodthirsty, no? I fear you will not like my response.
On June 23 2010 01:22 bumatlarge wrote:Im offended by your statement! We should really get this show on the road as to who are candidates for lynching. I dont feel comfortable just resting my vote on someone who Im not even 50/50 on. But we cant just let ourselves get swayed so we should start deciding soon. Im not sure whether having alot of different people under two red roles is good or bad, as they can spread enough while still stacking a bit with not mch consequence, but then again, we can take the direction a team is going and question them. I'd think teammates would be fine disagreing on points and not hinder the town in certain places, but we should be wary of a DT team trying to play off a rolecheck without getting mafia suspicion. If we even have one So this doesn't happen I'd suggest a DT team to gather two rolechecks and publicly post the info on the third day, or as soon as they find red. The medic would protect the proclaimed DT baring a roleblocker for as long as possible. I dont think mafia can chance publicly faking DT with only 2 reds in the game, so trading a DT for 1 red would help alot. I think checking a town would be relatively useless as PMs are banned, so try to check legitimately suspicious teams. Id think this game will be very down to the wire if there are no blues and a half decent mafia squad. Otherwise we have have a really good chance with proper analysis.
While your thoughts here are fair that we need to get on with targeting people for lynching, you propose a truly awful strategy. First, a 9 player game can last about 4 days. Essentially what you are suggesting is that the DT not reveal until the endgame. While this can be a decent idea, it really entirely depends on the circumstances. If the DT finds a townie and says X is a townie on day 2, this can be very helpful depending on the setup. The mafia can only kill one person. I don’t think the DT should do this sort of thing unless person X or the DT is about to get hung, though. Once the DT comes out, they’re either going to get hit or roleblocked the following night.
This brings me to the second point in your strategy. You talk about a medic protecting the DT. If there is both a medic and a DT in the game, the mafia will know it because they have a roleblocker. In such a case, the mafia would almost surely roleblock the DT to prevent any further info gathering and kill someone else in hopes to hit the medic. This renders the DT wholly ineffective and the medic, at best, is on their own. This is the purpose of the existence of the mafia roleblocker.
The way this is all presented makes me think that you already know these things and furthermore that you have a roleblocker on your team. I’ll be opening up my voting by casting it for Bumatlarge.
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@BM I think I was pretty clear that I wasn't shaking mud on you. I'm not sure why you continue to place heat on me unreasonably. That you persist in this fashion is sketchy, but I've known players with your style before and it's fine.
I am fine with being in the spotlight. Whether I am lynched is always up to the town. Honestly, if I weren't me, I'd be suspect of myself if I were quiet, where being loud gives no credit either for or against me. Your contrived explanations to turn up the heat on me where it's not due is kind of silly, though.
Encoding messages in a way that anyone is able to decode is ridiculous and slows down analysis processes. A mafia team is going to have 4-6 players to work at decoding and organizing where any town team is going to have 2-3 players. Mafia will have this information at the ready much more effectively.
Is my last post logical enough for your tastes?
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Wow this forum is annoying to use when the post speed goes up. Why don't we get a warning or something that more people have posted since you started typing? More posting to follow.
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On June 23 2010 03:24 Bill Murray wrote: Wow. Lynch this guy. First, the mafia won't know shit if they have a roleblocker They can have a roleblocker while we have 7 townies, they don't know anything WE can also not be sure to have a detective at all I was about to take my vote off of you, but the way you are acting, it is staying there for the rest of the game.
Also, advising DT not to go to lategame is ill informed in my opinion as well. Every DT messup i've ever really seen has occurred by the DT revealing too early
I also dislike the negative near-omgus you are directing towards bumatlarge. While his play may be scummy scummy play doesn't always = scum. I am not saying carry him into a lynch or lose scenario, but that he is not acting nearly as scummy as other people, namely you.
If the mafia have a roleblocker, they know that either there is no DT and no medic, or there is both a DT AND a medic. The post of bumatlarge seems to indicate that he is on a mafia team with a roleblocker and is giving poor advice under the assumption that both a medic and a DT exist. If there is a DT and no medic, the mafia just hit the DT and there’s no protection, still a win for mafia.
If it is the case that there is no DT and no medic, the mafia can still play as though they exist to the same extent that all the other townies can play as though they assume a DT to exist, so it does not hurt their position.
I never advised the DT ‘not to go lategame’. My point is that one should not hold to a prescribed theory of when to out ones self as a DT. Making such restrictions causes undue suspicion if a DT is in a position where they role claim ‘not on time’ by public opinion. Furthermore, if the DT is listening to bad advice of roleclaiming at a particular time, they are restricting themselves from options that could benefit the town more effectively.
At this point I’m becoming indifferent on hanging BM vs bumatlarge. I highly suspect one, but not both, of them are mafia. This is way too aggressive to be a fully mafia gambit on day 1. If there’s a DT in this game it’d just get them rooted out way too quickly. Since bumatlarge has been the less aggressive player and following the lead that BM put out, I’m still inclined towards lynching bumatlarge.
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What is OMGUS? I assume RVS is random voting stage?
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Durak, please don't get us modkilled. No edits. Ever.
@OMGUS idea: My voting for bumatlarge was not OMGUS. Once bumatlarge made the post I quoted I was almost assuredly going to vote for him on it. I waited a bit and was hoping someone else would call him out on it first as I would feel more confident that they are town - assuming bumatlarge does, in fact, turn up red.
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On June 23 2010 04:56 Korynne wrote: So there seems to be a bandwagon starting on YellowInk. I don't like it very much... Mainly because I believe that YellowInk is relatively easy to read, so I don't think we'll have a lot of trouble dealing with him in the later days as we would some other people *cough*L*cough*Chezinu*cough*. So I would definitely favour lynching a group of inactives or someone hard to read over lynching YellowInk.
Those are my two cents on the matter.
Chezinu has posted quite a bit but not a single thing of merit. The most content he posted was the video on being unreadable. It sure is easy to be unreadable when you don't post any content.
Chez, you going to join BM's attack on me or do you have opinions of your own? Sorry you're so lonely, but I'm not going to talk Morse to you.
Honestly there is a whole lot of inactivity in this thread. The list is long. This disturbs me greatly.
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On June 23 2010 05:10 Chezinu wrote: YellowInk, let's say that through analysis I have a guess that a team is either the DT or Mafia. Should I reveal this team? I can't seem to think of a way to communicate to them personally. So what is your advice on this matter? Personally I would not act and continue to read. There are commonly tells in DT behavior (if they're not laying too low) that distinguish them from mafia when you compare one day to the next.
If they're laying too low it becomes difficult to make any distinction even between mafia and town. It is for this reason that I advocate activity in every single player.
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On June 23 2010 05:27 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 05:26 Ace wrote:On June 23 2010 05:24 Chezinu wrote:I guess I should post what I know: Radynee/Koryfield anaylsis: + Show Spoiler +On June 22 2010 07:09 Radfield wrote: Get your game on mafia. Inactivity will not be tolerated. Giggidy Giggidy. On June 22 2010 07:28 Korynne wrote: Yay so excited. <3
So yeah, time to get stuff rolling. First day's lynch is pretty randoms, so I will vote for inactives. Gogogo!
In terms of strategy, I don't think there's much for us to do other than just talk a lot. xD DT should probably let town know once they find 2 townies or 1 mafia. Medic should not claim anytime soon. Giggdy and excited about their roles... On June 22 2010 08:38 Korynne wrote: Yeah, the whole point is that mafia can narrow it down to 2 setups, and blue roles can narrow it down to 2 setups. On June 22 2010 09:26 Korynne wrote: I picked the classic f11 setup because I figured it would be hard to get twice as many people than we usually do.. On June 22 2010 10:50 Korynne wrote: Did you want to play Incog? Maybe ask flamewheel if he'll stick you into a random team. xP or is Kory excited about the f11 setup? On June 22 2010 22:32 Korynne wrote: It appears that Chezinu has voted for me and Radfield, without the requisite "aka abstaining for now.. because no one else would dare vote for him, right?"
We note that he is mafia that game he voted for Radfield, however this time he just said a bunch of di-dah-di-dits instead of the previous statement.
For the sake of generating some content on day 1, care to clarify this Chezinu? xD Kory underestimates how random my behavior can be though some aspects remain the same... On June 23 2010 00:34 Korynne wrote: Hmmm... I am trying to decide if Chill would be offended by that statement...
He's really more like Light than L most of the time. Did you decide yet? On June 23 2010 02:21 Korynne wrote: BM and Chez... you can PM each other. >.> So like, stop spamming up the thread... *goes to look up the morse code stuff* What is the fun in that? On June 23 2010 02:35 Korynne wrote:YellowInk, I believe BM is referring to a game Caller ran, called the Three Kingdoms Mafia where there was Yellow Turban as a 4th party. I believe he must be mistaking you for someone else because your name is not on the player list. How many games have you researched in the past? That way I can consider killing you or not if I'm mafia. If you know too much... On June 23 2010 03:48 Korynne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 03:26 Bill Murray wrote:On June 23 2010 03:24 Korynne wrote: BM, how is talking in morse code helpful in the thread? Anyone can put it into a morse code translator.
If you wish to speak in code in hopes that somehow magically other townies but not mafia will be able to decipher it, be my guest. But I find the whole addition of morse code or binary or any other simple translatable using google form of cryptic communication useless and disruptive to people when they want to analyze the thread. you mean to say that it is unfair to you because you and your scumbuddy team #5 are the only ones who are capable of using IRC to coordinate with other teams? Uh, how does this post make any sense? a) If I was mafia, like YellowInk pointed out, I would have twice as many people on my team, making analysis much faster. b) If you're trying to say that as mafia I am crying unfair because mafia is supposed to be the only ones able to communicate to other teams then first of all, you still can't use IRC to coordinate with other teams, and second of all, I don't see how talking in code allows you to coordinate with other teams. Even if you set up an elaborate system with someone ahead of time, how are you sure they are not mafia? Like, it's good that you're putting pressure on YellowInk (I haven't decided if he's scummy yet, he doesn't quite have the green glow from the game he was pardoner but I don't know if that's because he's blue, red, or just being less aggressive because he doesn't have clues) but making stupid accusations is like...wut? (read: being Bill Murray?) Interesting, posts have to make sense... On June 23 2010 03:53 Korynne wrote:OMGUS Why didn't you vote for me then? On June 23 2010 04:24 Radfield wrote:Oh Chez.... Anyways, I agree, despite our lack of a vig, that the dt should claim once he pegs a mafia. There's no millers, so it's a for sure thing. Trading our DT for half of the mafia is a good trade, assuming we are decent players and can do some decent post analysis. The downside of this, is that once the mafia find out there is a DT, they will KNOW if there is a medic or not, and if there IS a medic, they will have a roleblocker, and roleblock the dt for the rest of the game(setup 1). So a dt claiming is either certain death, or certain roleblocking, unless we get lucky and it's the roleblocker who gets lynched(50-50 shot). So a dt who claims has a 50% chance of dying the next night(setup 3) and a 25% chance of getting roleblocked for the rest of the game (setup 1, with roleblocker alive) and a 25% chance of having medic protection for the rest of the game (setup 1, with roleblocker dead) Again, I think it's worth it for the dt to claim once he finds a red(or 2 greens as korynne stated) As for PMing your partners, I have assumed that this is allowed. We need a mod ruling on this ASAP however. I assumed this because Korynne designed the set-up, and I assumed she knew the rules For me the whole fun of this setup is that you get to make decisions as a team, and get to bounce your ideas off of each other about who you think is scummy, or who you think might be blue, etc. This guy actually reads my posts. He is cool. On June 23 2010 04:29 Korynne wrote: Gee Radfield, read the rules, it makes me look bad if you keep making mistakes like that. D= However, he didn't read the rules.. Conclusion: Either Mafia or DT How so. Please give us an actual logical breakdown of how you arrived at this conclusion. Every game you and your ally post nonsense and get away with it because everyone thinks you are useless, ignoring the fact you may be scum. and the fact that I could be a blue role Are you saying posting nonsense is an effective way to play a blue role? How about green?
If so, I am sorely disappointed. I don't think it makes you scum - I know you've been in enough games to have your own opinions about such. However it does may make you a useless town aligned role if you're NOT scum. Fortunately BM is posting a great deal of content. Unfortunately it is mostly wharrgarbl as well. If you're blue and playing this way, well that really sucks.
At any rate, I'm still undecided on the BM/Chez team. They do make me laugh, but that's probably because it's the first game I've played with them.
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On June 23 2010 05:42 bumatlarge wrote: This seems to have escalated above us yellow, lets go into a hidey-hole and wait for the whole thing to blow over You're already in a hidey-hole and I'm not such a big fan of that. If you are in fact the red one, letting heat settle on BM/Chez plays right into your hands. This is why I targeted you for being the less active of the bunch.
If you're town, you should be either taking a closer look at me/BM or at least someone active... or at the absolute least hollaring for inactive players to step up. Hidey-holes don't fit into a town aligned plan at all.
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Though I think that bumatlarge is currently the most likely red player currently, I don't want that to allow a lot of these quieter players to stay quiet. This thread is being dominated by a few players - maybe all town going at each other's throats. We need to hear arguments presented by more people.
@Chez analysis stuff - I think Kor is town aligned. Been posting, though not very aggressive in drawing out info from others. I at least lean more town for this one than with the other teams that havn't been posting. I don't really agree with your blue conclusions, though pointing things like this out serves only to assist the mafia in choosing targets. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they had already taken note of such things.
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So I was trying to put together a list of how many posts people made and I'm having trouble with the search function. For instance I do a search on LaXerCannon and it shows the last post he made in this thread as #38. I don't remember having a problem with this before. Anyone have any ideas?
At any rate, I want to start fingering people who havn't been talking.
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On June 23 2010 06:43 Divinek wrote: hm well the chez/bill team seems to be the most active team overall so far so maybe that's an indication of a role outside dah greeeeeeeeeen, especially all of the emotionally fueled responses and random picking aparts of other people. Unless that's some weird townee level which would be stupid Define active? You think this posting in code in thread is helpful to the town? They could just be PMing to each other. Clearly they intend for it to be read, they're just making it difficult for every town team to pick it apart. It muddies the waters. I'm not saying it makes them scum, but I surely don't count this sort of posting as making them active.
BM coming after me, Chez's question for me, Chez posting resulting opinion of me, etc - this is substance. The codes are trash. So I agree with you that they're being active, you should be careful to observe for the correct reasons. Use similar reasoning when you look at others - find posts that have merit and only consider them.
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On June 23 2010 10:45 Durak wrote:Who is this clown? + Show Spoiler + You go afk all day, come back, and make some ridiculously biased "summary" post.
First of all, you say "our main options" as if you're some authority. You haven't said anything in this thread to separate you from anyone else. In fact, you've just kept under the radar.
Second of all, your bolded choices are biased. Your first post in this thread, before anything began, accuses 2 and 8. You repeated the same people in this post even though they have been discussed relatively little. Rather, people have pointed their fingers at you.
Give me some analysis or I don't see any reason to listen to you. You're talking bigger than you have shown. Chill good buddy. He may have been gone all day, but he's one of the players that is often considered good at figuring stuff out and organizing. My type of guy. Doesn't mean he's town - I expect he'll be posting a good bit beyond this so that people can get a read on him.
I don't really agree with his list as there's a lot being batted around at the moment. I'm surprised no one has voiced to agree with my analysis of bumatlarge. I guess you guys are off the hook for now. That being said, I think they'd be an excellent target for a DT investigation.
Since I'm still highly suspect of bum with his continued posting pattern (I will elaborate this on request, but I suspect no one cares at the moment), I lean against voting for BM/Chez. If bum is mafia, BM probably isn't. It's just too risky of a play. But from all the talk of BM/Chez being pretty crazy players, idk. People seem really on the fence about him.
If the post counts from some of these teams remain this low, I'm on board with lynching inactives. Whatever else I can speculate, they're still just day 1 loose reads. When the posting content from the inactives come up, maybe there is something there that will read red to me as well and we'll all come to a consensus.
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On June 23 2010 11:12 L wrote: Yo, I translated because translating is cool. If only we could get them to not muck about in the first place. +2 brownie points for L.
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On June 23 2010 11:17 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 11:12 L wrote:On June 23 2010 11:07 Bill Murray wrote:On June 23 2010 10:45 BrownBear wrote:Yass, I am back! I now have cast my vote for Team Two, for the following reasons: + Show Spoiler [Reasons!] +On June 23 2010 02:13 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2010 14:24 YellowInk posted: It's already been answered by another player sufficiently, but I think there's something else worth considering in a team game.
If you get a read on one player as mafia and their teammate as town, do you accuse them? Would you hang them for it? My answer to this question would be 'yes'. Remember that if we all appear to be town, the mafia wins most games, so the generic strategy for mafia is to appear to be town - preferably without helping them too much. If you get a read on someone as mafia you need to put it to good use.
Now extrapolate to a semi or even fully active team member and an inactive teammate. We have an inactive 'read' on one player and a whatever (lets assume town for sake of argument) read on the active player. Is this someone to consider hanging? I again say 'yes'. Of course we go after the red as a priority, so like in any other game, targeting an inactive is something you do when you don't feel sufficiently confident about a read on anyone else.
Now if the one person is posting so much that the activity basically makes up for the other player being inactive, I'd give them consideration for a pass on this. The point is that we need every player to be active so that we have as many different reads on as many different teams as possible allowing us to root out the red. Allowing one player to be inactive (or even just semi-inactive / laying low) could allow their potentially skilled mafia teammate to be more elaborate in their lies or deception without worry of cross team tripups. This is why I think a hard stance against inactivity is appropriate even here in this team game. since i view you as red, we should lynch your entire team? if I feel like you are posting like you did when you were a yellow turban, i shouldn't sit idly while you try to ruin my game? such wise words from someone who is likely to be scum. perhaps you are doing the exact thing you're saying scum will do: Show nested quote +so the generic strategy for mafia is to appear to be town - preferably without helping them too much. ? I am going to assume we are out of the RVS, and use this hypocrisy as the basis for my voting you. You are doing exactly what you'd advocate red to do - appearing town without helping all that much. Instead of discussing what someone would do... why are you even thinking of that, by the way?... you should be scumhunting but are not. Even L's obvious OMGUS is a lot less suspicious to me than this. Especially on day 1, there isn't really anything wrong with saying apparently obvious stuff like this: there are new people in this game, and, in their own words: On June 22 2010 22:39 Durak wrote:This is my first game of mafia so my skill level is noob. When it gets suspicious is when people start to take really surface-level stuff like this into late game. However, this is Day 1, so we can't really get a read on YI yet. I agree with his statement too (and I know this may be damning myself, considering the accusations flying around Jspazz already, but hey, YI is right and it should be acknowledged). I think you know this is a good idea yourself, but you are trying to muddle up his idea in random accusations. Not cool. On June 23 2010 03:26 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 03:24 Korynne wrote: BM, how is talking in morse code helpful in the thread? Anyone can put it into a morse code translator.
If you wish to speak in code in hopes that somehow magically other townies but not mafia will be able to decipher it, be my guest. But I find the whole addition of morse code or binary or any other simple translatable using google form of cryptic communication useless and disruptive to people when they want to analyze the thread. you mean to say that it is unfair to you because you and your scumbuddy team #5 are the only ones who are capable of using IRC to coordinate with other teams? VERY combative, especially early on. This is also a pretty baseless accusation, a thinly veiled insult, and completely unhelpful to the game. And she was right, y'know. Its disruptive. But when you translate it... (quoted jspazz because he was awesome and translated it already) On June 23 2010 06:38 johnnyspazz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 01:25 Bill Murray wrote:chez: + Show Spoiler +-.-. .... . --.. .. -. ..- --..-- / .-- .... --- / .- .-. . / .-- . / --. --- .. -. --. / - --- / .--. .-. --- - . -.-. - ..--.. Chezinu, who are we going to protect? Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 01:39 Chezinu wrote:Bill: + Show Spoiler +.. / .... . .- .-. -.. / - .... .- - / - .... . / .--. . .-. ... --- -. / .-- .... --- / .--. --- ... - . -.. / .- ..-. - . .-. / -- -.-- / .-.. .- ... - / .--. --- ... - / .-- .- ... / -- .- ..-. .. .- .-.-.- / .. / - .... .. -. -.- / .. .----. -- / --. --- .. -. --. / - --- / .--. .-. --- - . -.-. - / .- / - --- .-- -. .. . .-.-.- / .. / .- .-.. ... --- / -... . .-.. .. . ...- . / - .... .- - / .-- . / -- .- -.-- / .... .- ...- . / .- / -.. - .-.-.- I heard that the person who posted after my last post was mafia. i think i'm going to protect a townie. i also believe that we may have a dt. Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 01:49 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Di-dit, Di-dah-dah Dah-dah-dah Di-di-dah Di-dah-di-dit Dah-di-dit, Di-di-dit Di-dah Dah-di-dah-dah, Di-dah-dah-dit Di-dah-dit Dah-dah-dah Dah Dit Dah-di-dah-dit Dah, Di-dah Dah-di-dah-dit Dit, Di-dah-di-dah-di-dah Di-dah-di-dah-di-dah Di-dah-di-dah-di-dah Di-dah-di-dah-di-dah , Dah-di-dah Dah-dah-dah Di-dah-dit Dah-di-dah-dah Dah-dit Dah-dit Dit, Di-dit Di-di-dit, Di-dah-di-dit Di-dit Dah-di-dah Dit Di-dah-di-dit Dah-di-dah-dah, Di-di-dit Dah-di-dah-dit Di-di-dah Dah-dah, Dah-dah Di-dah Di-dah-dah-dah Dah-dah-dah Di-dah-dit, Di-di-dah-dit Di-dah-di-dah-di-dah Dah-dah-dah Di-dah-di-dah-di-dah Di-di-dit Di-dah-di-dah-di-dah I , would , say , protect , ace , .... , korynne , is , likely , scum , major , f.o.s. Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 01:57 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +--. . - / --- -. / .. .-.-.- .-. .-.-.- -.-. .-.-.- / ... --- / .-- . / -.-. .- -. / -.. .. ... -.-. ..- ... ... / .-- .... --- / .-- . / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .--. .-. --- - . -.-. - Get on i.r.c. so we can discuss who we should protect oh man i feel like a detective! Ok then... this is a VERY thinly veiled medic claim. I doublechecked the translation using the following site: http://morsecode.scphillips.com/jtranslator.htmland it is accurate to the best of my knowledge. So congrats, you guys claimed medic. On day 1. All we know out of this is that you for sure aren't medic... but why even try to claim in the first place. If you are town (or god forbid, actually medic), you've basically committed suicide, as mafia don't really have much to go on with their night 1 kill, so they might as well try to see if they can nail one of the two blue roles in the game (if there are any, anyway). If you survive... it just really makes you look scummy. The only way I can see this being a good idea would be if you somehow discovered who the real medic was (on DAY FREAKIN ONE), convinced them you were town, and claimed so that the mafia would hit you, but the medic could protect you, thus wasting a mafia KP ...hmm, that's actually not a bad strategy if you can pull it off, but I reiterate. It's DAY FREAKIN ONE. There's no way you found the medic (if there is one) that quickly. There's also the possibility that you and Chez were just fucking around with that claim... but I doubt it. Chez might be random, but you, BM, usually post stuff for a reason. And I think that you are lying. And I don't like liars. I could do some analysis on chez... but right now he's too random to get a read on. If people really want me to I can try later, but for now, following YI's idea... one scum read on a team should be enough to lynch that team. Thus, I say Team Two should be our target for today. Brownbear: + Show Spoiler +BROWNBEAR,WHEN YOU SAY CONVINCED THEM YOU WERE TOWN ,AND CLAIMED SO THAT THE MAFIA WOULD HIT YOU, BUT THE MEDIC COULD PROTECT YOU, THUS WASTING A MAFIA KP, ARE YOU TRYING TO JOIN OUR TOWN CIRCLE BY CHECKING OUR ALIGNMENT, OR CLAIMING TOWNIE, OR ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL US? Yo, I translated because translating is cool. You should translate the harder ones that everyone seemed to ignore, maybe just maybe I have a code that only a select few can read! That makes this game fun!
Pregame key encryption should be considered equivilant to PMing and result in modkill. I'm not saying that is what you're doing, but if you have any understanding of cryptography this should be obvious.
Personally I think this is likely as not an attempt to misdirect attention and the water muddying just makes you look scummy.
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Alright, my search function seems to be working fine now. Some info mined from this thread. These are post counts of anything after post 27 (the day 1 start)
Player Team # # posts Radfield 1 2 Korynne 1 13 Bill Murray 2 20 Chezinu 2 25 LaXerCannon 3 6 bumatlarge 3 15 aCe 4 12 DarthThienAn 4 5 Durak 5 4 YellowInk 5 20 L 6 14 Caller 6 1 Nikon 7 1 Zyrre 7 2 meeple 7 1 Stormtemplar 8 5 johnnyspazz 8 9 BrownBear 8 4 DCLXVI 9 4 MooCow 9 3 Divinek 9 9
Also, I saw someone format this more nicely in another game. Do you have to post it as an image or is there a way to get a table? I tried clicking all the buttons and none of them seem to make tables.
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To summarize the above information, I'm moving my vote to team 7 for the moment until they post more than a sum of 4 times between their 3 players. Or I get a better red read on someone. This far into the day and with all of them having checked in at least once (ie they all know the game is on), this is ridiculous.
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@ Chezinu LOL entertainment value indeed, L's "tumor" speaks.
@ Durak's post counting - I'm actually third in quantity of posts. Chezinu is first, BM is second. Now if you're interested in quality... well lets just leave that to viewer discretion.
@ BM claiming sarcasm - that's a pretty awful way to present sarcasm. You may have been in a sarcastic frame of mind in writing it, but it definitely didn't come out that way. Muddying the waters.
@ Chez re BM Are you guys really playing the same role? ^^
Entertainment indeed. We need to do more team style mafia.
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On June 23 2010 14:03 L wrote:Show nested quote +Reviewing the three pages before your post, I see no reason for you conclude that the town is leaning towards those three groups. You even missed the few posts right before yours that mention team 7. I'm glad you can't read, and I'm glad you learned that larger posts take time to write. Good job! I'mma let you finish, but I just have to say that you used this same argument against me and that was the worst argument of all time.
On June 23 2010 11:45 L wrote: Only Yellow really bothered to take the time, and given his post's location after mine it seems like he's more trying to patch up an obviously over-inflammatory push from his ally. Yup. I was writing a big post and it fell behind as other people posted quickly rather than the nefarious reasons you insinuated. Now, what do we call it when people hold double standards? If you were looking at this sort of thing from outside where you're sitting, what would you have to say about yourself?
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On June 23 2010 14:53 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 14:51 Bill Murray wrote: Not Voting: Radfield(1) Korynne(1) Caller(6) Nikon(7) Zyrre(7) MooCow (9)
So really, we aren't killing anyone. We are just killing meeple who went afk anyways.. Not that anyone should switch votes and kill me... We should just kill meeple... yeah... uh oh... I spoke too much... how about team 8? What if team 1 shows up last minute? Its too late voting will end in like 8 hours, don't kill me! Just don't do it! Honestly, the voting for inactives is for emphasis that we the town are unhappy with their work thus far.
If they're going to get 2/3 modkilled it may still be worth hanging the 1/3 remaining since they are clearly inactive. If mafia, that's still contributing to KP, but the voting influence is mostly eliminated. Is this something worth killing? It may be worth just considering other targets. We definitely still have plenty of time to discuss.
I havn't been altogether impressed by team 9's content. MooCow has regurgitated a bit of what others have said and provided no real content. MooCow has also had the time to post elsewhere on TL despite having only 3 posts in this game. DCLXVI has posted nothing of relevance except 'I agree with voting on BM' in his 4 posts. In Divinek's 11 posts he has gotten slightly involved with my and Durek's arguments, poking here, questioning there. But mostly he's just posted one liner 'hey look I'm here' and finished with an 'I don't know if I'll be posting tomorrow so I'll vote now'.
If team 7 is looking to get mostly modkilled, the last player is almost assuredly town and team 9 may just be a choice. If team 7 'suddenly shows up' at the end and posts no content, I'd probably want to lynch them for it. I do question the potential for partial team inactivity leading to strategic modkilling, but this probably isn't a road worth investigating. I really havn't decided one way or the other on this - I'm tired and headed to bed.
Bottom line is you all need to post more. I just don't understand how people can join these games and not want to get knee deep in the middle of it.
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Good morning everyone! I'm glad to see more activity from both teams 1 and 7. I've skimmed over the most recent posts and since it appears K/Rad are currently here I just want to throw out the quick Q:
Lynching inactives is more a policy of encouragement to me than anything else. For instance, consider how many votes were (still are!) on team 7. Nikon and Zyrre have posted recently with much more enthusiasm of late. If they were not on the block to be lynched, would they have been quite as active as they are now? Many of their posts are more strongly worded because they are looking to persuade people towards voting elsewhere.
I would agree with you that doing a bandwagon-lynch inactive at the end of day is largely ineffective. They don't have enough time to react, or even if they do, there may not be enough time to get votes shifted off of them.
I am currently satisfied that team 7's activity level has risen to a more acceptable level, but they need to maintain it.
Is there enough time left to pressure team 9 into doing the same?
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Checking clocks it looks like we have about 10 hours left in the day, so I'd lean towards no on the question I just presented. I'm not sure where I want to put my vote besides on bumatlarge at the moment. At the least, consider my vote off of team 7, it'll be going somewhere else as I havn't read obvious mafia there.
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BM/Chez, whether you're town or mafia, you're in a serious pickle. If you are to not get hung, another target needs to be manifest basically right now. I'm not convinced by your arguments against team 7, and since they have become more active I no longer have a reason to leave my vote there.
I still think it's fairly likely that at least one of the teams between you and bum/LaX is mafia. I still think it's much more likely that bum/LaX is the mafia one. Because of this, hanging you gives me more information if you don't flip red. So I'm not altogether against hanging you.
Given no better info, I do intend to go after bum/LaX tomorrow if you come up pro town. I don't know if people will listen to me or not. No one has really commented on my arguments, but neither have I pressed them due to apparent lack of interest. I still hope the DT is seriously considering investigating bum/LaX!
So consider this me giving you your other target. I'm moving my vote back to bum.
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In short, the way that BM and bum attacked me with BM being aggressive and bum staying more to the shadows is what raised my suspicion. Bum's awful post made me read red on him earlier. + Show Spoiler + His continued posting style did not lend him any credit.
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On June 24 2010 01:41 Chezinu wrote: How will lynching us give you any information? Anyways, I really wanted to change my vote too as I stated earlier. We just need enough people to change to same target. If I am reasonably confident that at least one of you is mafia due to the nature of the attack and one of you is lynched, that makes it likely the other is mafia. If one of you is lynched and you come up mafia, it makes it reasonably likely the other is town.
The combined pressure, the heavily red sounding post from bum, and the illogical attacks from BM, all of these circumstances make me think that scum is involved somewhere. Since the mafia player tends to be the one more towards the shadows (and clearly bum has done a good job of not drawing attention to himself), I strongly lean towards bum being the more likely red.
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For any that havn't already done so, I'd recommend just quickly flipping through bumatlarge's posts for more evidence of why I hold the stance I do. He has a solid number of posts, but many of them are spammy. LaXerCannon only has a few posts comprised of being unsure of rules, spam, and complaining of being brain scrambled.
The content from this team isn't even as good as Team 7's (now that they've picked up the ball) and what content they do have mostly paints them red.
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On June 24 2010 02:08 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2010 01:06 YellowInk wrote: Lynching inactives is more a policy of encouragement to me than anything else. For instance, consider how many votes were (still are!) on team 7. Nikon and Zyrre have posted recently with much more enthusiasm of late. If they were not on the block to be lynched, would they have been quite as active as they are now? Many of their posts are more strongly worded because they are looking to persuade people towards voting elsewhere. Yes, the majority of the bandwagon on me happened while I was sleeping, and since Zyrre is from Europe as well, I can only assume the same for him... That's fine. I had just done a post count after the 24 hour mark and your team came up with 1, 2, 1 posts. That was just way too low to allow - it was a reasonable bandwagon. Glad to see you guys picking it up. Just keep it up.
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On June 24 2010 02:14 Nikon wrote:Let me ask again: What do you think of this Show nested quote +On June 23 2010 15:42 stormtemplar wrote: ## unvote team 2 ## Vote team 7
No point, better to lynch inactives anyway and wait for more clues to surface. I think stormtemplar is noob and needs to post more. Of his 5 posts, one was edited, and this was the only post with any content of his thoughts. He has pulled the noob card saying this is his first game. He needs to not ninjavote. Stormtemplar explain yourself!
It's still nothing compared to the transgressions bumatlarge has made. He doesn't get the noob card, either.
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@bumatlarge It was posting 'errors' and anti town overall playstyle that made me feed your name to the DT in XXVI, and that's what got you hung. You're making similar errors here. To be fair I havn't read a game where you are town, so maybe you're just always this way.
Also, don't put words in my mouth - I was quite clear about how your post was flawed. I never said a DT should sit on scum info. I pointed out how aligning to a plan of DT not saying anything until day 3 no matter what is a bad idea. That being said, you're making good adjustments to your 'play' in apologizing for 'errors', but I'm not exactly convinced.
@DCLXVI This is not a new crusade. I called out bum much earlier and was my opening vote. As some time passed and team 7 was shown to be inactive after 24 hours and no one seemed interested in going after bum, I switched to apply pressure. As it stands now I don't have solid reads on anyone - bum is just the best target I've got.
As an aside, I'm curious what L/Caller have to say about recent events. Is Caller even going to play? L is probably at work. I'd like to hear more from them though preferably in a way that doesn't confuse most people. Also Rad/Korynne, it seemed like you were going to get more active but then you got quiet again. You're right that we probably should be giving you guys more flak.
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@ DTA: Why exactly is your vote on team 9? I had proposed it earlier for potential inactivity, but when it got down to it, there wasn't enough time to make use of the pressure. It may be worth considering on day 2 if they don't pick up their content quality. I havn't seen anything that paints them red yet besides their insufficient posting substance.
@ all the 3 player teams to each individual player: Honestly I havn't been impressed with any of your individual content. Some of you have come up to medium level, but none of you have really been shining. Whatever else you want to say about BM/Chez, they've been very active. For some of those who havn't said as much on the 2 player teams, most of those few posts have been thick with information about their thoughts and stances.
As a member of the town you are expected to each of you individually provide enough content that we can get a fair read on your stance so that we can figure to some reasonable degree if we think you are town or scum. I wonder if being on a 3 player team makes you feel that you don't need to say as much? I expect more of you.
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Radfield, note that I already called out team 9 on inactivity, but it was 10 hours before close of voting. + Show Spoiler + This makes it difficult to use voting as a method of pressure. I agree that team 9's posts have been trash. + Show Spoiler +
I had considered shifting to team 9 before going to sleep, but at that point team 9 was no worse than team 7. As you can see, the team 9 analysis is before team 7 picked up their activity - I was posing an alternative location for pressure. I had hoped that would kick team 9 into gear. When it got too late in the day, there was no reason to apply pressure to team 9 since their activities aren't precisely red, they're simply inactive.
I'd be on board with putting the squeeze on team 9 at the start of tomorrow if they havn't shaped up. If BM turns up green I still thing bum would be an excellent target.
Speaking of - since my 'crusade' on bumatlarge does not appear to have been well received, can people post why they don't agree with my analysis? Is it because BM looks to be a better target? Is it because you really think bum is more likely to be green? I'd like to hear responses on this because I feel like my posture is falling on deaf ears. I'd like to hear from anyone who cares about what I have to say. :D
At any rate, it's not something happening today. If BM/Chez flip red, that makes bum look much more green and Team 9 deserves more scrutiny.
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I write my posts in notepad or word to put together multi-quote or spoiler tags. I do this in all forums because many forums 'timeout' if you sit on the page for too long. Also I've lost many posts from changing webpages unintentionally.
So yeah, I add them manually. Just part of my habit.
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@DTA I know your vote was there on team 9 at the 10 hr mark, but I didn't think it'd be enough time to force activity out of them. Team 3 reading red was more useful than what would have merely been a pressure vote on Team 9. I didn't shift from team 7 to team 9 at the ~18 hour mark (when I made the analysis post) because they were both inactive teams. Neither was better than the other, I was merely presenting a commentary on how there were two teams that needed to clean up their acts.
I'm going to try to refrain from repeating myself now, perhaps linking to prior posts with answers to questions/statements made in my direction.
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On June 24 2010 07:53 Radfield wrote: @YellowInk: I looked through Bumatlarge's posting history:
Comment Talks about previous game Responds to Yellowink, States the obvious about not being inclined towards anyone Decent Post Decent Post Random YellowInk FoS
Few more posts then goes into full spam mode. After that he stops spamming and starts making decent posts again. I don't really get a huge scum vibe from him. I think that perhaps you are seeing him as more scummy then he is because of his random FoS at you.
Here's what I think of bumatlarge's posts. + Show Spoiler +34 Oneliner useless 37 Oneliner useless 43 Decent post, commentary about preference of targets but declining to start pointing fingers. 61 Previously analyzed post that reads red 73 Generic town-aligned advice 74 double post 77 Oneliner useless 79 Random FoS on me (in support of BM/Chez) 99 Vote placed on me, claims town flip makes me clearer scum 101 Twoliner useless 108 Fights when I call out his awful plan of post 61. Asks for clarification. 123 Wants me to go into hidey-hole with him (reads red to me) 172 Shifts vote away from me (after no one beyond BM supports attack on me) to inactive team 196 Buddies with Durak, my partner 205 Useless (drunk?) post 207 Oneliner useless 228 Oneliner, maybe not useless, but not very content filled either 262 Oneliner useless 279 Oneliner useless 321 Decent post, requesting information 330 Oneliner, calling Team 8 active 368 Substance post, some ok, most trash (day 4 self bandwagon???) calling for self DT clearing (to avoid being lynch target), etc 371 Trash post, potentially claiming I said things I did not. On the upside at least we agree a DT should finger a red if they find one. 372 Backpedal post. Realizes his errors and apologizes for post 61 377 Defends reasoning for vote citing team 7 inactivity and now team 8 380 Responding to Durak's questions, little of use but decent post 435 Backpedal post. Apologizes for post 123 claiming it was a joke. Claims got 'comfortable' and is reason for making useless posts.
It's fair to say that FoS being targeted at me could color my view, but this post lineup still reads more red to me than the rest. I'm not happy with BM, but bum reads more red to me. I don't like inactivity, so I'm not a fan of team 9 at the moment - though that seems a problem better solved tomorrow.
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Redfield, are you voting for team 9 due to inactivity or because you actively read red in them? We may not agree on time frames, but pressure on team 9 was applied so late that if the team is not checking here frequently (besides Div) that they just may not respond.
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On June 25 2010 09:21 Korynne wrote: Wow this thread died... can we get some people to do analysis? Me and Radfield both did a couple already... but I'll do more later on.
On June 25 2010 09:37 Radfield wrote:That's what we get for removing BM and Chez Funny that you enjoy smaller games because there are less people to analyze, and yet you've gone and created a 'small' game with a ton of people For my part I'm awaiting daybreak. I'm not sure how much can be gained by talking at night unless there's a lot of sudden info to be digested. The Korynne instigated discussion was fine, I just figure talking about new suspicions could help mafia choose their kill to manipulate my intentions. I'd rather deny this of them.
I had used the night phases of XXVI to go fishing since 1) it was a noob game, 2) I was pardoner, 3) PMs were allowed, and 4) I was having a hard time getting certain people to talk. I'm not so sure night phase talk is as useful here - assuming people are sufficiently active during the day that we can come to reasonable conclusions.
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On June 25 2010 09:56 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2010 09:55 YellowInk wrote:On June 25 2010 09:21 Korynne wrote: Wow this thread died... can we get some people to do analysis? Me and Radfield both did a couple already... but I'll do more later on. On June 25 2010 09:37 Radfield wrote:That's what we get for removing BM and Chez Funny that you enjoy smaller games because there are less people to analyze, and yet you've gone and created a 'small' game with a ton of people For my part I'm awaiting daybreak. I'm not sure how much can be gained by talking at night unless there's a lot of sudden info to be digested. The Korynne instigated discussion was fine, I just figure talking about new suspicions could help mafia choose their kill to manipulate my intentions. I'd rather deny this of them. I had used the night phases of XXVI to go fishing since 1) it was a noob game, 2) I was pardoner, 3) PMs were allowed, and 4) I was having a hard time getting certain people to talk. I'm not so sure night phase talk is as useful here - assuming people are sufficiently active during the day that we can come to reasonable conclusions. I'm used to dying in the night, which means it's important to get my thoughts in while I can Haha, so I've heard. While that's fair, I've already talked about my opinions of the major implications of BM flipping green vs red during the day and that hasn't changed. Any conclusions I might draw from the evening banter is just as much speculation as the next guy's. I suppose if something really big came out at night it might be worth commenting on, but there's really not much of a reason FOR anything big to happen at night.
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Ugh, this is really slim pickings to work with. 12 posts with any content (some not much) in 16 hours. Well, I guess that gives us a reason to lay on some pressure.
People who have said something of note (currently making no judgement about whether their content makes them look good or baD): Durak, bumatlarge, DarthThienAn, Divinek, BrownBear, DCLXVI, and maybe half credit to Nikon since despite being a oneliner showed some alignment with a kind of thinking.
This means we need to hear from LaXerCannon, Ace, L, more from Nikon, Zyrre, meeple, stormtemplar, and johnnyspazz.
My vote is going to team 7 for resumed inactivity. This posting pattern alone is scummy. When they return to active status, I will definitely still count this as a mark against them. However, as with day 1, I expect that they will at least come forward to defend themselves and we can judge them on their merits.
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Now for what I'm actually thinking about.
I'm still not a big fan of what Team 3 has had to say. I still think there's a good chance this is a read team due to their passive push behind BM's attacks on me. I don't feel that either Bum or LaXer's commentary have been significantly beneficial to the town. I think that even Team 7's limited/defensive posting yesterday gave us better direction and information than Team 3.
Going by voting records, Team 9 looks the worst to me. While some people have carried on the torch of 'Team 9 still looks kinda scummy', consider that Team 1 and Team 2 were both voting against Team 9. Now they're dead. Granted, this is soft evidence, mafia could have done this just to make us look harder at lynching 9.
With L being a single player team, he's almost just as effective if he's mafia and less effective if he's town. It's also going to be harder to pull scum tells out of this 'team' since there is only one player talking. For my part, I want to hear L talking more than the average player to make up for this.
I know he's at work right now, but I wasn't impressed with his (lack of) posting at the end of day 1. Per the schedule he had posted and his posting patterns halfway through day 1, I had expected activity from him at the end of day 1 in the couple hours before the close of the day. Especially so since there was such a balance between 3 teams that anyone could easily sway the results of the vote!
I'd like to note here that in my conversation with Radfield about talking at night, this would be an example of one of the more subtle thigns I chose not to talk about at night. If I had brought up L's partial inactivity at the critical time, the mafia might have chosen to leave L alive specifically because they knew I wanted him hounded for an answer and there are other people who already suspect him for various reasons.
I'm not saying any of this makes L red, it's just another piece of evidence to look at. I want to hear L's explanations.
All of this is soft evidence so I'm not pointing fingers about any of it yet. Lets hear what these teams have to say.
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minor ebwop if the meanings weren't clear + Show Spoiler + Second paragraph should read as: I'm still not a big fan of what Team 3 has had to say. I still think there's a good chance this is a red team due to the passive push behind BM's attacks on me. I don't feel that either Bum or LaXer's commentary have been significantly beneficial to the town. I think that even Team 7's limited/defensive posting yesterday gave us better direction and information than Team 3.
their=>the LaXer was not directly supporting the passive attack on me, though I am not impressed with LaXer's posts. read => red typo
Hit post without pasting in the final proofread draft, blech
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On June 26 2010 09:45 L wrote: work stuff I'm not blaming you for your work situation. It's totally understandable. The problem is that it's indistinguishable from a mafia choosing to be inactive over a particular time window.
On a more important note, you picked up that both teams 1 and 2 pushed against T9, voted against T9, and are now both dead. Radfield + the BM/Chez team both tried to bus 9. That's partially why I found it so incredibly strange that Korynne would flip and try to 'hold' the result at BM/Chez if her partner was instrumental in starting the 9 train. The interesting part is that the 9 train was actually made in majority by people jumping off the 7 train.
That means that it isn't even just a question of T1+2 bussed against 9. You also need to examine their rhetoric against 7. The fact that 7 does not post unless they're being put on the stove is very, very scummy. Agreed, I hadn't thought of this point, but quite valid. Still very soft evidence, but worth thinking about. Considering Team 7's continued silence, my vote remains. I would encourage others to do the same at this point. Lay on the pressure, make them post or die. There's absolutely no reason they should be inactive as town. Once they talk we can make fair judgments. If they are scum, they may remain quiet in hopes that the L vs Ace argument takes precidence over their inactivity.
On June 26 2010 05:11 bumatlarge wrote: I hear what you're saying yellow, and expected it ( in a good way). I agree on alot of what you say, but I personally have been a bit more of a town vibe from T9 based on posting. Most of the inactive teams are still too vague to judge by votes.
Inactivity is still a problem and probably will be through the game, but any thoughts on team 4? Im sure you have some opinions of darth after the other game. He seems to state that his posting wold be exactly the same whether hes mafia or town. I know you were in pm contact for a bit and trusted what he had said for the most part. Your word would outclass mine in this regard. I know yo generally feel that game was a bit nooby, but I doubt you let that distrupt your messages to darth. The thing about strong players is that they have actively worked to eliminate tells. Skilled scum appear to be town in almost everything they do on the surface. Good scum rarely get caught on day 1 or 2 because they simply don't mess up the easy stuff. The way to figure it out is to watch their trends, changes in style from one day to the next, or see if their overall plan or choices just happens to have worked against the town more often than seems fair. This is how I was looking to catch DTA in XXVI and this is what I'm watching for here. It's how I'd look at any vet. Unfortunately mini mafia is short so this is tougher.
This is part of what can make it difficult to fairly read scum on noobs. Noobs mess up the simple stuff. You make a post that includes bad strategy you're going to get nailed on it (looking at you bum). How does one distinguish noob play from scum play? By not permitting people to get away with noob play. Noobs typically work at cleaning up the obvious stuff quickly and get up to the medium level. You always have to nail people for providing bad information.
I don't really have much of use to add to the L vs Ace argument directly. I havn't commented on it at all despite this fire burning from early in day 1. To clear up a few things I see as fact, I believe Caller was modkilled unintentionally - I do not think this was an attempt at strategic modkill. I think that Caller deliberately remained quiet for a reason that cannot be clearly discerned at this moment.
I read the back and forth bickering and I see logic and fallacy in both of their attacks. For both of them, I see errors and truth in both what they say and how they say it. I could be convinced of one being mafia or of both being town. Considering the heat of it, I think it is fair to say that it is unlikely that they are both mafia and it'd be worth betting the game on this.
If we assume that one is mafia, then we should all spend our energy trying to convince each other as to whose arguments are better, come to as much consesus as we can manage, cast our votes, and hope we hit red. If we find town, we're all but comitted to lynching the other. Now, if both are town, we lose the game because both L and Ace saw scum in each other. It should be immediately apparent that this all comes down to whether we believe one of them is mafia. If we're convinced at least one of them is, it may be worth pursuing this path. If the assumption holds true, and if it's 50/50 on who we lynch, it's 50/50 that we come out ahead or end up in lylo to find the last mafia team on day 4. In the end, all these assumptions get us nowhere.
Essentially the last two paragraphs say that you should vote where you believe your vote belongs. + Show Spoiler + You should only vote for one if you believe that they are scum and not because you're going to rationalize to yourself that if you hit town then the other must be scum. Personally, the arguing has not convinced me to vote for either L or Ace.
My vote remains on Team 7 for the reasons I stated above - it's seems much more likely to produce good results than getting involved in L vs Ace. If one of them is scum, let their actions speak to it more strongly after we have another day or two behind us. If team 7 gets active, I read them to be town, and I think L vs Ace is more interesting than putting my vote back on bum, I may do so. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
Also, a DT might be investigating and have found one of them to be town and could be fingering tomorrow. Or maybe the DT investigated somewhere else day 1. I would say that these two are excellent targets for investigation if we have a DT among us.
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On June 26 2010 16:08 Nikon wrote: Yeah, I only defend myself, because all you people do is harp on me - my sister's wedding is coming up this Sunday and things are getting quite hectic around here to be honest. It's interesting to note however, that Laxercannon still hasn't posted jack shit, yet me and Zyrre are getting all the flak for being inactive. In fact, the only thing that Laxercannon posted after his "going to take a shower - state an obivous fact" combo was a poorly constructed attack on myself in response to my post - this I find very scummy. While I agree with you that bum/lax have done a lot of things that read red, if I weren't already thinking along these lines, your argument would not be convincing.
You need to produce more. If you truly think bum/lax ARE scum (rather than just because you are a mafia team that just wants someone else hung), you need to present more than this. So does Zyrre. So does meeple. The 'harping' is because you have chosen to place yourself at the bottom of the ladder of activity. That has a very simple solution regardless if you are mafia or town - one which your teammates can assist you with.
Once you choose to remove yourself from the bottom of this ladder we can discuss whether votes on your team are no longer justified.
@Zyrre Since you've taken the time to respond to the one post, are you getting noob vibe or scum vibe from Divinek? Either way, please elaborate since Team 9 is somewhere I think a lot of us are interested in looking.
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The problem I have with Team 7 is despite being called out on it, the only thing they've had to say are defenses against supposed attacks against them. They have not come forward to make a progressive post that might help our analysis with another team. They didn't do anything on day 1 until forced to. They still havn't done anything of merit today.
Now we're 2 hours away from deadline and two of their team hasn't even voted. I don't know what's up with that. Only thing I can figure is that they'll be looking to shift the vote where they can right before deadline. Like I said earlier, I see no reason for a town aligned team to be so passive as this when I and others lay them under scrutiny with their votes. Bum, you were asking earlier about how you can tell if a team is being scummy when nothing they're actually saying reads red directly? This would be an excellent example.
Frankly, the inactivity throughout the game has been disappointing. If nothing else, consider how much discussion was taken out of the game with teams 1 and 2. The rest of you guys need to step it up.
(Durak, why havn't you voted yet, where are you??)
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On June 27 2010 09:42 L wrote:The reason why people aren't active is that they're happy with where the vote is falling, which means mafia's cool with me dying. As for this: Show nested quote +On June 27 2010 02:49 Zyrre wrote:L's latest post is the only one from him I've read as somewhat convincing(as in, it looks like Ace's argument was the weaker one). Namely that Ace just copied the voting lists and took the third person on there when there had been switches before that person voted. Ace did write he would ignore that, but it did severely alter the results. Also some incorrect statements from L in there, for instance: You didn't attempt to build an argument around why the Jeep tell was wrong; Ace's post against it was this one: no its not. It's pretty bad theory and only pans in the most simple of newbie games. The "third" vote idea doesn't even make sense because BM doesn't understand what it meant. It had nothing to do with the 3rd player voting - it had everything to do with trying to catch where a scum would vote without drawing attention aka getting on the wagon but without being blamed for tipping it.
Being that scum will vote wherever they think will allow them to escape scrutiny that statement is nonsense. I interpret this as: It doesn't apply to a lot of players and should only, if ever, be used as a slight suspicion together with independent stronger suspicions. If you interpret that in that way, then it isn't a grounds for killing someone. Even if you don't think the idea is 100% foolproof (and none are, in this format), that doesn't mean someone is scum for suggesting it unless there's a scum motive behind it. BM's post had nothing of that nature in it, which looks pretty obvious in hindsight. I've always said the easiest way to figure out what mafia are doing is the following; Look at what mafia's objective is, and think about the different routes to get there. Day 1, for instance, we have a MASSIVE train on T7. T7 talks up just enough to get back under the radar and survives, mostly due to another push against T2. T9 was the secondary target, but they don't get nailed. Both T7 and T9 look terrible after the voting falls into place as multiple swings make them likely beneficiaries of mafia seeded argumentation and vote swings. If T7 and T9 were both town, the MOMENT night ended and radfield died, mafia members would have started their shit train up. 1 team would spark the move, the other could lay low and just take the heat off. Even if the aggressor team died for their move, they would have a non-suspicious backup in subsequent lynch or die days for town. That didn't happen at all. Instead we had a huge push (read Page 32 and onwards) to create a binary between Ace and I. Even Darth tries to play it up. Generally speaking, the two easiest teams to get killed were ignored by mafia; Why? Well, it follows that one or the other are mafia. I still personally think Ace/Darth is the other mafia team, but I wouldn't be surprised if T7 or 9 was laying low and using the Ace/Me binary to get away with little posting. In terms of posting habits, Day 2 has produced only 6 pages of discussion. Day 1 produced almost 4 times that. Many people are VERY satisfied with the direction that town is going and many people don't feel the need to post. That is pretty telling in and of itself. L, I agree with your general arguments here, but they also apply in reverse with you being the mafia and Ace/DTA being the town. Since I don't see either of you as having a stronger position as outlined in my earlier posting, I'm after the inactives that have a good chance of being mafia. I agree that the idea that the mafia are comfortable with where things stand is disconcerting, but I don't see any way to make this vote go elsewhere with just over an hour left. I think DCLXVI's vote on Team 7 is trash, so if I were going to agree to any kind of train voting, it'd be on Team 9 for reasons similar to my alignment against Team 7.
Consider this a call out - if you're here, post. Just spam "I'm here" if you've got nothing else pressing to say.
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20 minutes and only you and DTA have posted. 40 minutes till end of day. It's going to have to stick to Team 7.
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Whoa whoa, sudden activity and serious interest in going after Team 9? Do we seriously have enough voting power to even consider it? Is it really that much better than Team 7?
L, if you are truly convinced that Ace is mafia, that means DTA is too. Swaying his vote to follow you to what might be mafia... all he has to do is say no if it's a mafia team and it's no dirt on him. If he goes with you and we hit a mafia team, does that clear both you and Ace?
I'll bite. If T9 is hung as mafia I think we have much more useful information than hanging T7 as mafia. They're both about the same as far as I'm concerned at the moment.
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I'm only going to move my vote to T9 if it's going to lynch, though. I don't want to see a vote split kill L. That means DTA has to make the first move if I'm going to shift (since the premise of extra gained information is based on DTA also voting for T9).
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I note that at the ten minute mark neither DTA nor L have gone to voting on team 9. I'll just watch for these two and if they go to 9, I'm there as well. That's voting power 11 which should have it locked down unless we have mass mafia lurking. But that will give us huge amounts of information as well.
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DTA just shifted to team 9. If he shifts back to kill L, we'll hang him for it tomorrow (were L to flip town), obviously, since he used that to get my and L's vote to shift off of team 7. I see no reason for DTA to be insincere in this, it's lose lose for him.
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This game was full of fail. Modkill game wtf???
I look forward to postgame discussion. Do we want to do it in IRC?
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On June 28 2010 11:11 LaXerCannon wrote: I think for Night 2, you should've flipped a coin to protect team 3 and team 4 since they still had 2 people each. Given no other information, this was definitely how it should have been done.
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I'll hope into #TMMM on the teamliquid irc
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A bunch of us are in #TMMM chatting right now if the rest of you care to join.
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