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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I'm thinking of making another game to mod while I have some off-time in the near future. Since Zona's bot seems to have / will be having a monopoly ( ) over the very standard versions of the game, should I do something akin to the semi-standard (more power roles, but general town against mafia) or something weirder, like Ace's or Caller's games?
Incidentally, I liked the Russian Mafia one with guns. Hmm.
Thoughts?
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I personally won't be playing in any bot games. Certain elements are just missing, and it doesn't suit my taste.
I like the "once in a while" TL Mafia (insert Roman numeral here) games with a relatively standard rule set with clues in Night posts, players ranging from 25-50.
If I play too many games in a row (like recently), it just dilutes my interest in the game.
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or something weirder, like Ace's or Caller's games?
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I am with fishball on this matter. As such I endorse everything he said.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Sounds nice, I really do enjoy those somewhat standard types of games as well...
I somewhat disdain clues since people tend to go crazy over them (partially inherited this disdain from Incog), but they generate activity, which is what mafia games really need. Perhaps I'll make one of the 20-30 people games with some semi-standard power roles, add clues, and shake and bake.
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On April 09 2010 15:40 Fishball wrote:
I personally won't be playing in any bot games. Certain elements are just missing, and it doesn't suit my taste.
I like the "once in a while" TL Mafia (insert Roman numeral here) games with a relatively standard rule set with clues in Night posts, players ranging from 25-50.
If I play too many games in a row (like recently), it just dilutes my interest in the game.
I'm planning on hosting one of these in a few weeks after I finish with school. Also, I agree. The micro games seem to just be missing something to me. I don't think I will be playing in one any time soon either.
Side note: flamewheel, when did zona's micro games become "standard?" The vast majority of games on TL have been 30+ players.
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On April 09 2010 15:40 Fishball wrote:
I personally won't be playing in any bot games. Certain elements are just missing, and it doesn't suit my taste.
I like the "once in a while" TL Mafia (insert Roman numeral here) games with a relatively standard rule set with clues in Night posts, players ranging from 25-50.
If I play too many games in a row (like recently), it just dilutes my interest in the game.
This.
When does Mafia ... XXI (I think) begin?
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I liked Zona's games, but they seem they are all going the same basic path. In general there does not seem to be much room for innovation or change in how the game goes about. It was good for working on my behavior analysis, but besides that i prefer larger games that have more variations to them. Where role claims don't have an obvious course of action.
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On April 09 2010 21:50 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 15:40 Fishball wrote:
I personally won't be playing in any bot games. Certain elements are just missing, and it doesn't suit my taste.
I like the "once in a while" TL Mafia (insert Roman numeral here) games with a relatively standard rule set with clues in Night posts, players ranging from 25-50.
If I play too many games in a row (like recently), it just dilutes my interest in the game. This. When does Mafia ... XXI (I think) begin?
Probably around May 1 if I'm the one who hosts it.
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If someone could host a mini game apart from Zona so I could skip that as per my ban and play in the XXI game that would be swell.
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I still like Zona's mafias-in-space idea
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 09 2010 20:36 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 15:40 Fishball wrote:
I personally won't be playing in any bot games. Certain elements are just missing, and it doesn't suit my taste.
I like the "once in a while" TL Mafia (insert Roman numeral here) games with a relatively standard rule set with clues in Night posts, players ranging from 25-50.
If I play too many games in a row (like recently), it just dilutes my interest in the game. I'm planning on hosting one of these in a few weeks after I finish with school. Also, I agree. The micro games seem to just be missing something to me. I don't think I will be playing in one any time soon either. Side note: flamewheel, when did zona's micro games become "standard?" The vast majority of games on TL have been 30+ players.
Not standard as in TL standard, but standard as 'an accepted form of mafia', like on mafiascum and such in the sense that C9 games can be set up easily.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 10 2010 01:27 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 21:50 Amber[LighT] wrote:On April 09 2010 15:40 Fishball wrote:
I personally won't be playing in any bot games. Certain elements are just missing, and it doesn't suit my taste.
I like the "once in a while" TL Mafia (insert Roman numeral here) games with a relatively standard rule set with clues in Night posts, players ranging from 25-50.
If I play too many games in a row (like recently), it just dilutes my interest in the game. This. When does Mafia ... XXI (I think) begin? Probably around May 1 if I'm the one who hosts it.
I think I can get one started around Mid-April, if you guys will have it. If it's 20-30 people it shouldn't conflict with Qatol's game in timing.
And would this be XXI? Does Ace's game count toward numbering?
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I'd say only fairly standard games with a decent pool of players (25+) gets numbering.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Caller's Russian game got numbered. It was between Incognito's "standard" 18 and my 20.
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I'm not saying his didn't, but rather more of a suggestion as a guideline for future game naming.
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On April 10 2010 03:08 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:27 Qatol wrote:On April 09 2010 21:50 Amber[LighT] wrote:On April 09 2010 15:40 Fishball wrote:
I personally won't be playing in any bot games. Certain elements are just missing, and it doesn't suit my taste.
I like the "once in a while" TL Mafia (insert Roman numeral here) games with a relatively standard rule set with clues in Night posts, players ranging from 25-50.
If I play too many games in a row (like recently), it just dilutes my interest in the game. This. When does Mafia ... XXI (I think) begin? Probably around May 1 if I'm the one who hosts it. I think I can get one started around Mid-April, if you guys will have it. If it's 20-30 people it shouldn't conflict with Qatol's game in timing. And would this be XXI? Does Ace's game count toward numbering?
Yeah that will work out fine. I can always shift mine back a bit to cover if yours takes longer than expected. Just gives me more time to figure out good clues/ advertise in General. 
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If anyone needs a co-host, I'll be taking a break from playing.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
I think a problem from Zona's games is that the day/night cycles are too long. When there are 5-9 people alive, do you really need 48 hours to talk things over (or 24 hours for night)? I'm not saying it should be like the first mini mafia which had 20 min day cycles or whatever, but something a bit shorter might help keep interest going and keep from getting bored. Ultimately, the length of the day/night should be determined by how many people are alive, so maybe we should consider something where the cycles get shorter as more people are killed.
I'm the only one in the thread so far who thinks this, but I like playing in Zona's small games and think they should be maintained to some degree. I think it provides a nice break from playing in gigantic 40-50 player games. Also, in between these large games, there's usually some sort of break period of a few weeks or so (understandable of course because the game has to get organized and people have to sign up and such). Zona's games allow for mafia play in this interim period for those who want to.
It was also nice to see that a lot of players in Zona's games were relative new comers, and not just a room full of vets. These games help give experience to those who are relatively new and want to play/learn more, as they don't have to sit around and wait for the next big game to play in. Case in point I think some people aren't going to write off BM before the game even starts anymore after his recent performance.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 10 2010 09:38 Foolishness wrote:
I think a problem from Zona's games is that the day/night cycles are too long. When there are 5-9 people alive, do you really need 48 hours to talk things over (or 24 hours for night)? I'm not saying it should be like the first mini mafia which had 20 min day cycles or whatever, but something a bit shorter might help keep interest going and keep from getting bored. Ultimately, the length of the day/night should be determined by how many people are alive, so maybe we should consider something where the cycles get shorter as more people are killed.
I'm the only one in the thread so far who thinks this, but I like playing in Zona's small games and think they should be maintained to some degree. I think it provides a nice break from playing in gigantic 40-50 player games. Also, in between these large games, there's usually some sort of break period of a few weeks or so (understandable of course because the game has to get organized and people have to sign up and such). Zona's games allow for mafia play in this interim period for those who want to.
It was also nice to see that a lot of players in Zona's games were relative new comers, and not just a room full of vets. These games help give experience to those who are relatively new and want to play/learn more, as they don't have to sit around and wait for the next big game to play in. Case in point I think some people aren't going to write off BM before the game even starts anymore after his recent performance.
Which got the town killed
But yes, I agree that small games can be nice, but I'm really frustrated with people not posting. These less standard games attract more attention due to gimmicks, but meh.
I guess I'll start writing up a game this weekend. Clues or not? Personally, I'm not a fan of them due both to host opinion on clues and how people always go overboard with them, but they generate discussion and posts.
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On April 10 2010 10:24 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 09:38 Foolishness wrote:
I think a problem from Zona's games is that the day/night cycles are too long. When there are 5-9 people alive, do you really need 48 hours to talk things over (or 24 hours for night)? I'm not saying it should be like the first mini mafia which had 20 min day cycles or whatever, but something a bit shorter might help keep interest going and keep from getting bored. Ultimately, the length of the day/night should be determined by how many people are alive, so maybe we should consider something where the cycles get shorter as more people are killed.
I'm the only one in the thread so far who thinks this, but I like playing in Zona's small games and think they should be maintained to some degree. I think it provides a nice break from playing in gigantic 40-50 player games. Also, in between these large games, there's usually some sort of break period of a few weeks or so (understandable of course because the game has to get organized and people have to sign up and such). Zona's games allow for mafia play in this interim period for those who want to.
It was also nice to see that a lot of players in Zona's games were relative new comers, and not just a room full of vets. These games help give experience to those who are relatively new and want to play/learn more, as they don't have to sit around and wait for the next big game to play in. Case in point I think some people aren't going to write off BM before the game even starts anymore after his recent performance. Which got the town killed
Hey, do not ignore my epic triumph as the founder of Micropolis. It may seem like it was only luck that saved me, but no. What you do not know is that I, realizing the possibility of mod-kill victory, secretly snuck around the other resident's residence at night and secretly put sleeping pill into their foods, letting God's wrath do all the dirty work.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 10 2010 10:30 haster27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 10:24 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 10 2010 09:38 Foolishness wrote:
I think a problem from Zona's games is that the day/night cycles are too long. When there are 5-9 people alive, do you really need 48 hours to talk things over (or 24 hours for night)? I'm not saying it should be like the first mini mafia which had 20 min day cycles or whatever, but something a bit shorter might help keep interest going and keep from getting bored. Ultimately, the length of the day/night should be determined by how many people are alive, so maybe we should consider something where the cycles get shorter as more people are killed.
I'm the only one in the thread so far who thinks this, but I like playing in Zona's small games and think they should be maintained to some degree. I think it provides a nice break from playing in gigantic 40-50 player games. Also, in between these large games, there's usually some sort of break period of a few weeks or so (understandable of course because the game has to get organized and people have to sign up and such). Zona's games allow for mafia play in this interim period for those who want to.
It was also nice to see that a lot of players in Zona's games were relative new comers, and not just a room full of vets. These games help give experience to those who are relatively new and want to play/learn more, as they don't have to sit around and wait for the next big game to play in. Case in point I think some people aren't going to write off BM before the game even starts anymore after his recent performance. Which got the town killed Hey, do not ignore my epic triumph as the founder of Micropolis. It may seem like it was only luck that saved me, but no. What you do not know is that I, realizing the possibility of mod-kill victory, secretly snuck around the other resident's residence at night and secretly put sleeping pill into their foods, letting God's wrath do all the dirty work.
Oh, I know. I laughed at your image macros. And I was the God?
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On April 10 2010 10:44 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 10:30 haster27 wrote:On April 10 2010 10:24 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 10 2010 09:38 Foolishness wrote:
I think a problem from Zona's games is that the day/night cycles are too long. When there are 5-9 people alive, do you really need 48 hours to talk things over (or 24 hours for night)? I'm not saying it should be like the first mini mafia which had 20 min day cycles or whatever, but something a bit shorter might help keep interest going and keep from getting bored. Ultimately, the length of the day/night should be determined by how many people are alive, so maybe we should consider something where the cycles get shorter as more people are killed.
I'm the only one in the thread so far who thinks this, but I like playing in Zona's small games and think they should be maintained to some degree. I think it provides a nice break from playing in gigantic 40-50 player games. Also, in between these large games, there's usually some sort of break period of a few weeks or so (understandable of course because the game has to get organized and people have to sign up and such). Zona's games allow for mafia play in this interim period for those who want to.
It was also nice to see that a lot of players in Zona's games were relative new comers, and not just a room full of vets. These games help give experience to those who are relatively new and want to play/learn more, as they don't have to sit around and wait for the next big game to play in. Case in point I think some people aren't going to write off BM before the game even starts anymore after his recent performance. Which got the town killed Hey, do not ignore my epic triumph as the founder of Micropolis. It may seem like it was only luck that saved me, but no. What you do not know is that I, realizing the possibility of mod-kill victory, secretly snuck around the other resident's residence at night and secretly put sleeping pill into their foods, letting God's wrath do all the dirty work. Oh, I know. I laughed at your image macros. And I was the God?
But suddenly, a portal to another dimensin appeared, and lightning struck down the two unmoving figures. A harsh laugh rang out, that some observers would come to recognize as the sound of flamewheel91's voice, a demigod in some other universe.
Nah, I was exaggerating ofc. What would give me impression of you being a God?
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yeah I also wouldn't mind cohosting a game with someone. I think it would make me better to see how people play knowing roles as I read.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Hmmm.
So like, let's see.
I wonder if we can get enough people that I can run two 25 people games? And then both RoL and citi.zen could co-host with me if that could happen...
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i doubt you can get 50 unless it's made known to the public of TL
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make it happen soon because that way my probation will end sooner
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 10 2010 16:08 Bill Murray wrote:
i doubt you can get 50 unless it's made known to the public of TL
That's the plan if for 2x, will move to general/sports and game part. Think it's about time for another wave, what with Zona's bot being able to handle the smaller games.
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Seeing this is TL.net, a Starcraft website, we should really get a Starcraft-themed game running :O
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 10 2010 20:19 Abenson wrote:
Seeing this is TL.net, a Starcraft website, we should really get a Starcraft-themed game running :O
I've seen at least one of those, didn't really like it.
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On April 11 2010 00:44 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 20:19 Abenson wrote:
Seeing this is TL.net, a Starcraft website, we should really get a Starcraft-themed game running :O I've seen at least one of those, didn't really like it.
Tracil's game
Didn't really work.
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On April 10 2010 17:35 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 16:08 Bill Murray wrote:
i doubt you can get 50 unless it's made known to the public of TL That's the plan if for 2x, will move to general/sports and game part. Think it's about time for another wave, what with Zona's bot being able to handle the smaller games.
Talk to Kennigit or Plexa about this. They should allow you to advertise on regular TL.
Be careful about running 2x clue games though. That's a lot of work at the front end. (Figuring out clue sets takes a lot longer than you might think. I probably spent 4 hours last time on vivi's clueset alone because I had no idea who vivi was in final fantasy.)
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 11 2010 02:14 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 17:35 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 10 2010 16:08 Bill Murray wrote:
i doubt you can get 50 unless it's made known to the public of TL That's the plan if for 2x, will move to general/sports and game part. Think it's about time for another wave, what with Zona's bot being able to handle the smaller games. Talk to Kennigit or Plexa about this. They should allow you to advertise on regular TL. Be careful about running 2x clue games though. That's a lot of work at the front end. (Figuring out clue sets takes a lot longer than you might think. I probably spent 4 hours last time on vivi's clueset alone because I had no idea who vivi was in final fantasy.)
Yeah, clue games take a while since I wouldn't want to make them blatantly obvious, though they should still be clues. Luckily, I'm a third tri senior, so I have quite a bit of time on my hands these days. And we'll see. I'll make one game, see how many people want to join, and if there's a ton I'll get a second one started and ask the mods I guess.
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I've had a pro-gamer/pro-gaming (not a starcraft) themed one in planning, which is an even better fit for TL than just SC.
A question to those who are not enthralled by the idea of bot games. Why?
1) An uncaring automated machine handling the boring repetitive tasks of vote counting, resolving actions, and making posts in place of a human that would otherwise have to do the grunt work instead? Lack of flavor? Lack of clues?
2) A dislike of the setup? 9 people too few? Roles too boring?
3) Something else?
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United States2186 Posts
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me.
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On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me.
They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose.
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2) A dislike of the setup? 9 people too few? Roles too boring?
9 is fine at the start, but it will get down to like 4, 5, 6 people and it starts to slow down really fast
F11 is definitely the most balanced, but it is dry as a result. Also, as Foolishness said, I believe that the day cycles are way too long for such a small game. I play on mafiascum, don't get me wrong, but that's the one reason I hate that website. Shit takes forever. I would also be a fan of majority lynch
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United States2186 Posts
On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose.
Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role.
Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction.
Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas?
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Anyone have ideas?
Ask, "would bill murray do this?" if the answer is yes, don't do it.
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On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:
Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas?
Honestly, I think one of the most helpful things to do is find a few players that you consider good, then talk to them during games. I find it always helps to have someone to bounce ideas off of, and when you have someone who has similar reads on things as yourself, your overall ability will hopefully improve. Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.
I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read).
People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town
I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating
Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control.
If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play.
Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound?
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On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound?
Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used.
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On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose. Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role. Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction. Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas?
Agreed. Someone will always propose a "no snapping policy" yet you damn well know someone will be thrown off tilt / manipulated / want to be a hero / get bored, etc. will pretty much set off a chain reaction and distract the town with useless "policy lynches" for a long time.
As far as improving people... honestly there are very very few players I can say have actually improved since I started playing here. Most start with a certain skill-set and come constraints that never change: attention span; time commitment; critical thinking ability; etc. Experience in and of itself is overrated and can sometimes even be detrimental. So I am not very optimistic on this front.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used.
I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play.
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On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play.
Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop.
I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die.
I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts.
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On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts.
Good plan. Incog and myself had planned on doing something rather abusive in your game before ver and qatol told him how abusive it would be. Bus driver is a role I would request not be in your next game, way to many issues with it.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 11 2010 11:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts. Good plan. Incog and myself had planned on doing something rather abusive in your game before ver and qatol told him how abusive it would be. Bus driver is a role I would request not be in your next game, way to many issues with it.
It's never going back in.
Though it's hilarious.
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On April 11 2010 10:37 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose. Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role. Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction. Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas? Agreed. Someone will always propose a "no snapping policy" yet you damn well know someone will be thrown off tilt / manipulated / want to be a hero / get bored, etc. will pretty much set off a chain reaction and distract the town with useless "policy lynches" for a long time. As far as improving people... honestly there are very very few players I can say have actually improved since I started playing here. Most start with a certain skill-set and come constraints that never change: attention span; time commitment; critical thinking ability; etc. Experience in and of itself is overrated and can sometimes even be detrimental. So I am not very optimistic on this front.
It isn't the format that's the problem, its the players.
Period.
Some of the players that we have playing with us in our games are very bad and go beyond refusing to improve; they actively try to fuck their team over if they're vanilla townies. If that's the case, town will and should lose barring a herculean effort from other parties.
These players will be day 1 lynch targets in every game they join, as they should be. If they decide to learn, maybe they can move past that stage.
Edit: you can claim this is about our methods of teaching new players, but the majority of large issues are with older players who have been here for months and refuse to step it up. Some of our newer players and mods are absolutely fantastic. Flamewheel's awesome. Haster plays very well, etc. Some people, by contrast, have been dog-shit terrible since mafia 1.
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On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used.
Speaking as one of the players who winds up taking over, I would be all for letting other people take over, but the problem I have run into time and time again is that nobody else really tries to step up, or other people keep telling me to step up and start calling me out if I don't. I don't really know what the solution is to this. One thing we tried in Incog's Mafia XVI was letting a big-name player smurf and play not to win, but to teach. Unfortunately, if you post too much like that, it is pretty obvious what you're doing. How do other sites deal with this?
On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts.
Generally, you don't want a completely random setup, though giving yourself a randomly generated framework and then tweaking it can be quite useful. I'll be happy to help if I have time, but expect me to be around pretty rarely for the next 3 weeks until my exams are over.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 11 2010 11:31 L wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 10:37 citi.zen wrote:On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose. Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role. Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction. Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas? Agreed. Someone will always propose a "no snapping policy" yet you damn well know someone will be thrown off tilt / manipulated / want to be a hero / get bored, etc. will pretty much set off a chain reaction and distract the town with useless "policy lynches" for a long time. As far as improving people... honestly there are very very few players I can say have actually improved since I started playing here. Most start with a certain skill-set and come constraints that never change: attention span; time commitment; critical thinking ability; etc. Experience in and of itself is overrated and can sometimes even be detrimental. So I am not very optimistic on this front. It isn't the format that's the problem, its the players. Period. Some of the players that we have playing with us in our games are very bad and go beyond refusing to improve; they actively try to fuck their team over if they're vanilla townies. If that's the case, town will and should lose barring a herculean effort from other parties. These players will be day 1 lynch targets in every game they join, as they should be. If they decide to learn, maybe they can move past that stage. Edit: you can claim this is about our methods of teaching new players, but the majority of large issues are with older players who have been here for months and refuse to step it up. Some of our newer players and mods are absolutely fantastic. Flamewheel's awesome. Haster plays very well, etc. Some people, by contrast, have been dog-shit terrible since mafia 1.
I love you L. Indian food sometime?
Also yeah... I don't want to name names, but for some games, when I read the role list, I can pretty much tell how the game will go just from where the good players, lurkers, spammers, and fail are. I really should have re-rolled for XX, though I didn't think the mafia did a bad job.
On April 11 2010 11:48 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts. Generally, you don't want a completely random setup, though giving yourself a randomly generated framework and then tweaking it can be quite useful. I'll be happy to help if I have time, but expect me to be around pretty rarely for the next 3 weeks until my exams are over.
Yeah, I'll be looking at that once the signups are done. I won't need much help, I feel, beyond the original balancing of the game, and maybe if I find a 'tweak' in there. Browsing through MS, I found the Notfia game... damn, that would be a bitch.
Also wait what? Who was the smurf...
I'm too lazy to go back and read >.>
|
On April 11 2010 12:00 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 11:31 L wrote:On April 11 2010 10:37 citi.zen wrote:On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose. Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role. Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction. Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas? Agreed. Someone will always propose a "no snapping policy" yet you damn well know someone will be thrown off tilt / manipulated / want to be a hero / get bored, etc. will pretty much set off a chain reaction and distract the town with useless "policy lynches" for a long time. As far as improving people... honestly there are very very few players I can say have actually improved since I started playing here. Most start with a certain skill-set and come constraints that never change: attention span; time commitment; critical thinking ability; etc. Experience in and of itself is overrated and can sometimes even be detrimental. So I am not very optimistic on this front. It isn't the format that's the problem, its the players. Period. Some of the players that we have playing with us in our games are very bad and go beyond refusing to improve; they actively try to fuck their team over if they're vanilla townies. If that's the case, town will and should lose barring a herculean effort from other parties. These players will be day 1 lynch targets in every game they join, as they should be. If they decide to learn, maybe they can move past that stage. Edit: you can claim this is about our methods of teaching new players, but the majority of large issues are with older players who have been here for months and refuse to step it up. Some of our newer players and mods are absolutely fantastic. Flamewheel's awesome. Haster plays very well, etc. Some people, by contrast, have been dog-shit terrible since mafia 1. I love you L. Indian food sometime? Also yeah... I don't want to name names, but for some games, when I read the role list, I can pretty much tell how the game will go just from where the good players, lurkers, spammers, and fail are. I really should have re-rolled for XX, though I didn't think the mafia did a bad job.
I'd advise against getting too far into this mindset. You have to remember that sometimes players will improve even though nobody really talks about it. For example, Malongo's skill level improved pretty dramatically between Mafia VII and now. RoL is another example. The tweaking really should just be so you don't wind up with a mafia like mafia 4-5 where none of them have any experience at all so they are totally disorganized because they don't know what they're doing. Also avoiding giving really important blue roles to inactives is probably a good idea (though those have mostly disappeared in recent games).
Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 11:48 Qatol wrote:On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts. Generally, you don't want a completely random setup, though giving yourself a randomly generated framework and then tweaking it can be quite useful. I'll be happy to help if I have time, but expect me to be around pretty rarely for the next 3 weeks until my exams are over. Yeah, I'll be looking at that once the signups are done. I won't need much help, I feel, beyond the original balancing of the game, and maybe if I find a 'tweak' in there. Browsing through MS, I found the Notfia game... damn, that would be a bitch. Also wait what? Who was the smurf... I'm too lazy to go back and read >.>
Big secret! (I promised not to tell. Go bug Incog or df if you really want to know.)
|
On April 11 2010 12:18 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 12:00 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 11:31 L wrote:On April 11 2010 10:37 citi.zen wrote:On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose. Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role. Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction. Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas? Agreed. Someone will always propose a "no snapping policy" yet you damn well know someone will be thrown off tilt / manipulated / want to be a hero / get bored, etc. will pretty much set off a chain reaction and distract the town with useless "policy lynches" for a long time. As far as improving people... honestly there are very very few players I can say have actually improved since I started playing here. Most start with a certain skill-set and come constraints that never change: attention span; time commitment; critical thinking ability; etc. Experience in and of itself is overrated and can sometimes even be detrimental. So I am not very optimistic on this front. It isn't the format that's the problem, its the players. Period. Some of the players that we have playing with us in our games are very bad and go beyond refusing to improve; they actively try to fuck their team over if they're vanilla townies. If that's the case, town will and should lose barring a herculean effort from other parties. These players will be day 1 lynch targets in every game they join, as they should be. If they decide to learn, maybe they can move past that stage. Edit: you can claim this is about our methods of teaching new players, but the majority of large issues are with older players who have been here for months and refuse to step it up. Some of our newer players and mods are absolutely fantastic. Flamewheel's awesome. Haster plays very well, etc. Some people, by contrast, have been dog-shit terrible since mafia 1. I love you L. Indian food sometime? Also yeah... I don't want to name names, but for some games, when I read the role list, I can pretty much tell how the game will go just from where the good players, lurkers, spammers, and fail are. I really should have re-rolled for XX, though I didn't think the mafia did a bad job. I'd advise against getting too far into this mindset. You have to remember that sometimes players will improve even though nobody really talks about it. For example, Malongo's skill level improved pretty dramatically between Mafia VII and now. RoL is another example. The tweaking really should just be so you don't wind up with a mafia like mafia 4-5 where none of them have any experience at all so they are totally disorganized because they don't know what they're doing. Also avoiding giving really important blue roles to inactives is probably a good idea (though those have mostly disappeared in recent games). Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 11:48 Qatol wrote:On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts. Generally, you don't want a completely random setup, though giving yourself a randomly generated framework and then tweaking it can be quite useful. I'll be happy to help if I have time, but expect me to be around pretty rarely for the next 3 weeks until my exams are over. Yeah, I'll be looking at that once the signups are done. I won't need much help, I feel, beyond the original balancing of the game, and maybe if I find a 'tweak' in there. Browsing through MS, I found the Notfia game... damn, that would be a bitch. Also wait what? Who was the smurf... I'm too lazy to go back and read >.> Big secret! (I promised not to tell. Go bug Incog or df if you really want to know.)
There were two smurfs actually
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 11 2010 12:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 12:18 Qatol wrote:On April 11 2010 12:00 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 11:31 L wrote:On April 11 2010 10:37 citi.zen wrote:On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose. Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role. Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction. Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas? Agreed. Someone will always propose a "no snapping policy" yet you damn well know someone will be thrown off tilt / manipulated / want to be a hero / get bored, etc. will pretty much set off a chain reaction and distract the town with useless "policy lynches" for a long time. As far as improving people... honestly there are very very few players I can say have actually improved since I started playing here. Most start with a certain skill-set and come constraints that never change: attention span; time commitment; critical thinking ability; etc. Experience in and of itself is overrated and can sometimes even be detrimental. So I am not very optimistic on this front. It isn't the format that's the problem, its the players. Period. Some of the players that we have playing with us in our games are very bad and go beyond refusing to improve; they actively try to fuck their team over if they're vanilla townies. If that's the case, town will and should lose barring a herculean effort from other parties. These players will be day 1 lynch targets in every game they join, as they should be. If they decide to learn, maybe they can move past that stage. Edit: you can claim this is about our methods of teaching new players, but the majority of large issues are with older players who have been here for months and refuse to step it up. Some of our newer players and mods are absolutely fantastic. Flamewheel's awesome. Haster plays very well, etc. Some people, by contrast, have been dog-shit terrible since mafia 1. I love you L. Indian food sometime? Also yeah... I don't want to name names, but for some games, when I read the role list, I can pretty much tell how the game will go just from where the good players, lurkers, spammers, and fail are. I really should have re-rolled for XX, though I didn't think the mafia did a bad job. I'd advise against getting too far into this mindset. You have to remember that sometimes players will improve even though nobody really talks about it. For example, Malongo's skill level improved pretty dramatically between Mafia VII and now. RoL is another example. The tweaking really should just be so you don't wind up with a mafia like mafia 4-5 where none of them have any experience at all so they are totally disorganized because they don't know what they're doing. Also avoiding giving really important blue roles to inactives is probably a good idea (though those have mostly disappeared in recent games). On April 11 2010 11:48 Qatol wrote:On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts. Generally, you don't want a completely random setup, though giving yourself a randomly generated framework and then tweaking it can be quite useful. I'll be happy to help if I have time, but expect me to be around pretty rarely for the next 3 weeks until my exams are over. Yeah, I'll be looking at that once the signups are done. I won't need much help, I feel, beyond the original balancing of the game, and maybe if I find a 'tweak' in there. Browsing through MS, I found the Notfia game... damn, that would be a bitch. Also wait what? Who was the smurf... I'm too lazy to go back and read >.> Big secret! (I promised not to tell. Go bug Incog or df if you really want to know.) There were two smurfs actually
T_T
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Some things to consider in addition to whatever black magic you guys currently are using to balance games:
1) When considering game balance in a game where the lynch is a central tool for the town, one key factor to pay attention to is how many successful lynches the town needs to win, and how many mislynches they can afford, taking into account possible powers that can skew these numbers by considering the minimum and maximum effect they could have, and the likelihood.
2) As well, consider how the game would proceed if somehow one side figured out all the information of the game and acted optimally: How quickly would the other side fall, i.e. how much time would the other side have to figure things out as well to counteract things. As well, the chance of every action falling into place for either side to ensure the quickest victory.
+ Show Spoiler +An extreme example of where this kind of viewpoint would have helped, in my view, is the two mafia team game here. If the town collectively figured out who the mafia were, and lynched a mafia every day, and the mafia were completely inept with their kills and killed town each day (rather than the other mafia team)...the end result is that one of the MAFIA teams win. Sure the idea was for the town to help/convince each mafia team kill the other side, but if you consider that perfect lynching combined with perfectly inept mafia nightkills would lead to a mafia victory, that shows you how skewed the game was against what is normally the town's central tool.
3) Finally, consider the probabilities of victory if players acted randomly. This part probably is the most complicated, but I do think it has its uses. It should favor the mafia, perhaps by a 2-1 ratio (i.e. ~33% chance of town victory) as when the town gains information, the choice of lynch should be better than random, and the lynch is the tool that benefits the most from information. Of course, the more volatile and influential powers the town has, the more a randomly played out game should favor the mafia.
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We definitely consider 1 and 2. I don't know how much emphasis we put on #3 though.
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On April 11 2010 13:26 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 12:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 12:18 Qatol wrote:On April 11 2010 12:00 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 11:31 L wrote:On April 11 2010 10:37 citi.zen wrote:On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose. Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role. Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction. Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas? Agreed. Someone will always propose a "no snapping policy" yet you damn well know someone will be thrown off tilt / manipulated / want to be a hero / get bored, etc. will pretty much set off a chain reaction and distract the town with useless "policy lynches" for a long time. As far as improving people... honestly there are very very few players I can say have actually improved since I started playing here. Most start with a certain skill-set and come constraints that never change: attention span; time commitment; critical thinking ability; etc. Experience in and of itself is overrated and can sometimes even be detrimental. So I am not very optimistic on this front. It isn't the format that's the problem, its the players. Period. Some of the players that we have playing with us in our games are very bad and go beyond refusing to improve; they actively try to fuck their team over if they're vanilla townies. If that's the case, town will and should lose barring a herculean effort from other parties. These players will be day 1 lynch targets in every game they join, as they should be. If they decide to learn, maybe they can move past that stage. Edit: you can claim this is about our methods of teaching new players, but the majority of large issues are with older players who have been here for months and refuse to step it up. Some of our newer players and mods are absolutely fantastic. Flamewheel's awesome. Haster plays very well, etc. Some people, by contrast, have been dog-shit terrible since mafia 1. I love you L. Indian food sometime? Also yeah... I don't want to name names, but for some games, when I read the role list, I can pretty much tell how the game will go just from where the good players, lurkers, spammers, and fail are. I really should have re-rolled for XX, though I didn't think the mafia did a bad job. I'd advise against getting too far into this mindset. You have to remember that sometimes players will improve even though nobody really talks about it. For example, Malongo's skill level improved pretty dramatically between Mafia VII and now. RoL is another example. The tweaking really should just be so you don't wind up with a mafia like mafia 4-5 where none of them have any experience at all so they are totally disorganized because they don't know what they're doing. Also avoiding giving really important blue roles to inactives is probably a good idea (though those have mostly disappeared in recent games). On April 11 2010 11:48 Qatol wrote:On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:[quote] I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound? Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts. Generally, you don't want a completely random setup, though giving yourself a randomly generated framework and then tweaking it can be quite useful. I'll be happy to help if I have time, but expect me to be around pretty rarely for the next 3 weeks until my exams are over. Yeah, I'll be looking at that once the signups are done. I won't need much help, I feel, beyond the original balancing of the game, and maybe if I find a 'tweak' in there. Browsing through MS, I found the Notfia game... damn, that would be a bitch. Also wait what? Who was the smurf... I'm too lazy to go back and read >.> Big secret! (I promised not to tell. Go bug Incog or df if you really want to know.) There were two smurfs actually T_T
+ Show Spoiler +Ser Aspi and ...? Hmmm... must guess - much funner than asking!
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 11 2010 13:36 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 13:26 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 12:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 12:18 Qatol wrote:On April 11 2010 12:00 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 11:31 L wrote:On April 11 2010 10:37 citi.zen wrote:On April 11 2010 06:59 Ver wrote:On April 11 2010 05:19 L wrote:On April 11 2010 04:31 Ver wrote:
Pro gaming one sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Games like Ace's with all the mystery and intrigue can be rather interesting since there is a lot of unknown potentials with how the game will turn out and plenty of room to make interesting plays. Though games where multiple individual townies can kill people without consent generally makes for a mafia favored game, so any future attempts of that style should tweak mafia counts and powers appropriately.
My issue with the bot games isn't the bot itself but more of the format. The low numbers require a very tight setup without much variation and the no pm'ing rule further restricts possibilities. What you end up with is a system with limited possibilities: there are only so many ideas (very few) that you can really pull off in such 9 person formats, even if you lift the pm'ing restriction. If it were possible to vary up the number of people (more people=exponentially more possibilities both in play and roles) who can play each time then yes it could become a consistent feature.
It's still a good idea to have the minigames going on sometimes for change of pace and such but I think that if the games are too frequent it will get stale very fast.
Also if anyone wants to double-check that their game is balanced properly and has no major loophole/gameplay issues just pm me. They aren't mafia favored. Town just retards the fuck up intensely every game. If they're going to do that, they deserve to lose. Normally all the retards don't have the power to alter the game as they see fit, especially on days 1/2. So there is more room for better players to take the lead since each individual player only has so much power. It's not like a one time thing either i,e caller going "i got half drunk and vigied ace lolol." All it takes is one person and not only does the town have to deal with that person but they also have to deal with the expanded chaos which is for the most part going to be very bad for the town as now everyone else can and will start doing it too. The amount of influence one bad player has over the game is gigantic in the 'everyone has a day kill power' format. Not nearly as much in normal games no matter what their role. Even in a much higher skill level game I could see things going awry simply because one person isn't playing that well or they get duped or something and take matters into their own hands and set off a massive chain reaction. Another way to look at it though is that we need to improve people at playing (town usually) but honestly I have no idea how at this point. The stickied thread has enough good advice to get people to quite a solid playing level but it seems nobody really follows it that well. Anyone have ideas? Agreed. Someone will always propose a "no snapping policy" yet you damn well know someone will be thrown off tilt / manipulated / want to be a hero / get bored, etc. will pretty much set off a chain reaction and distract the town with useless "policy lynches" for a long time. As far as improving people... honestly there are very very few players I can say have actually improved since I started playing here. Most start with a certain skill-set and come constraints that never change: attention span; time commitment; critical thinking ability; etc. Experience in and of itself is overrated and can sometimes even be detrimental. So I am not very optimistic on this front. It isn't the format that's the problem, its the players. Period. Some of the players that we have playing with us in our games are very bad and go beyond refusing to improve; they actively try to fuck their team over if they're vanilla townies. If that's the case, town will and should lose barring a herculean effort from other parties. These players will be day 1 lynch targets in every game they join, as they should be. If they decide to learn, maybe they can move past that stage. Edit: you can claim this is about our methods of teaching new players, but the majority of large issues are with older players who have been here for months and refuse to step it up. Some of our newer players and mods are absolutely fantastic. Flamewheel's awesome. Haster plays very well, etc. Some people, by contrast, have been dog-shit terrible since mafia 1. I love you L. Indian food sometime? Also yeah... I don't want to name names, but for some games, when I read the role list, I can pretty much tell how the game will go just from where the good players, lurkers, spammers, and fail are. I really should have re-rolled for XX, though I didn't think the mafia did a bad job. I'd advise against getting too far into this mindset. You have to remember that sometimes players will improve even though nobody really talks about it. For example, Malongo's skill level improved pretty dramatically between Mafia VII and now. RoL is another example. The tweaking really should just be so you don't wind up with a mafia like mafia 4-5 where none of them have any experience at all so they are totally disorganized because they don't know what they're doing. Also avoiding giving really important blue roles to inactives is probably a good idea (though those have mostly disappeared in recent games). On April 11 2010 11:48 Qatol wrote:On April 11 2010 11:15 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On April 11 2010 10:47 flamewheel91 wrote:On April 11 2010 10:33 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
[quote]
Just make sure to talk to more than one person about balance, or at least one person who is more available to help. I think a bonus for one of the newer hosts would be to get an old one to co host just to help with the balancing of the game if nothing else. As for newer games with Vet players taking a back seat. It is honestly reallly hard to do sometimes. However, I can say easily, had I not been dt last game you hosted, I would not have been nearly as active in any sense. The role was just one that had to be used. I'll be asking quite a few of you guys, unless you dawgs want to play. Usually most people who help balance actually play as well. Which can kinda be bad since it gives us (imo) an unfair advantage. Id stick to snagging 1 co host then like 1 other who won't play and will help. Unless you stick by the purely randomized method and let roles stay where they drop. I tried the entirely random thing. Made it a bit too imbalanced, so there miiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggght be some selectivity. Of course, you never know. I could let my cat roll the die. I'll definitely be bothering Qatol and Ver about this. I'm still looking to get two games down to get two co-hosts. Generally, you don't want a completely random setup, though giving yourself a randomly generated framework and then tweaking it can be quite useful. I'll be happy to help if I have time, but expect me to be around pretty rarely for the next 3 weeks until my exams are over. Yeah, I'll be looking at that once the signups are done. I won't need much help, I feel, beyond the original balancing of the game, and maybe if I find a 'tweak' in there. Browsing through MS, I found the Notfia game... damn, that would be a bitch. Also wait what? Who was the smurf... I'm too lazy to go back and read >.> Big secret! (I promised not to tell. Go bug Incog or df if you really want to know.) There were two smurfs actually T_T + Show Spoiler +Ser Aspi and ...? Hmmm... must guess - much funner than asking!
Looking at those posts, I would say that your first guess is one. Haven't found the second one yet. Though I just reread the majority of XVI.
Interesting shit back then.
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United States3652 Posts
On April 09 2010 16:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I am with fishball on this matter. As such I endorse everything he said.
MAFIA!!!
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On April 11 2010 09:15 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 08:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Trying to improve on your own can be insanely daunting as well, TL vet players can be total d bags to newbie players.I think a good example would be take RoL. Given his general read on players the last few games, he has picked out reds fairly quickly, yet is still considered shit generally(at least based off one of the game endings i read). People just need to find a small group core and just stick to learning with them. Also, learning to decieve the people your learning with is a key skill at decieving the town I agree with this statement, especially after watching XVIII. With the new influx of people playing in XVI (BC's and Incog's, of which I was one) the veterans that came back for XVIII were... well, not the most accommodating Same thing with XX, vet players just owned the town. Granted, power roles are compelling, but from watching it through the mod's eyes, you could just see it was the same people taking control. If I were to make a game now that was open to the TL public (i.e. newcomers, of which I'm sure there would be enough that would be willing to try this out/play), it'd be nice to have a game composed of new or semi-new people and some vet players that would be more willing to help them learn and play. Also at this point tonight I'm going to start writing up probably a 25 person game, limited power roles but more diverse than just cop/medic/mafia, no elected roles, and will include clue sets. How does this sound?
Sounds good to me, looking forward to it
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Also, anybody know what the official number of the next game will be?
XXII, yes?
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I haven't read the thread yet but I got your PM FW. I'll check back later and yes I'm done being wild for this week ^_^.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 12 2010 07:21 Ace wrote:
I haven't read the thread yet but I got your PM FW. I'll check back later and yes I'm done being wild for this week ^_^.
Fuck yeah Seaking
!
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On April 12 2010 06:06 flamewheel91 wrote:
Also, anybody know what the official number of the next game will be?
XXII, yes?
XXI
The last game was mafia XX, afaik (your game)
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I'm available if you need to discuss balance etc. I won't be able to play due to being quite busy and being gone half the time, but if you have questions drop by and I'll help if I'm around.
Next game should be XXII. Ace's last game was large, count it as XXI.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 13 2010 09:24 Incognito wrote:
I'm available if you need to discuss balance etc. I won't be able to play due to being quite busy and being gone half the time, but if you have questions drop by and I'll help if I'm around.
Next game should be XXII. Ace's last game was large, count it as XXI.
Thanks Incog. I'm straightening up the basics now, will ICQ you later with a semi-legit setup.
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EPT
